Gaza Freedom Flotilla

catefrances

polaris_x wrote:

i am speculating that the economic hardships greece is encountering is related to this ... :(

i totally agree.. i do not think for a minute athens acted as they did without someone whispering in their ear.

Byrnzie

usamamasan1 wrote:

Funny how you and your buddy "truth" man are both calling me a troll...

It's not really funny. You've not added anything constructive to this thread, but have just posted 'inflammatory messages', while refusing to respond to any questions. Therefore, the description is apt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
'In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.'

usamamasan1

Constructive?
Read above, it just doesn't agree with your hammmmas/terrorist/exterminate Israel attitude, that's all.

usamamasan1

I believe Israel has to defend itself.
Bwahahaha

dimitrispearljam

vedder_soup wrote:

My friend who was arrested is now free. was charged with obstructing the coast guard and recieved a suspended sentence.

thats good news ..i hope they treat him well during holding ,without ban his rights

dimitrispearljam

catefrances wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

i am speculating that the economic hardships greece is encountering is related to this ... :(

i totally agree.. i do not think for a minute athens acted as they did without someone whispering in their ear.

:(

Byrnzie

usamamasan1 wrote:

I believe Israel has to defend itself.
Bwahahaha

What does ethnic cleansing, and a land-grab, have to do with self-defense?

Israel only has one right of self-defense, and that is to withdraw to the 1967 borders and then fortify those borders as it sees fit. Imprisoning 1.5 million people while continuing to build illegal Jewish-only settlements has nothing to do with self-defense.

But then you probably already know that and are just here to stir shit up by posting a load of gibberish.

catefrances

i feel like someone is smacking upside the head whenever i enter a thread about israel/palestine. i can not for the life me understand how the level of empathy for the palestinians, remains as low as it is. what this says to me is that if someone, for whatever reason, encrouched on your land and your lifestyle, youd be okay with it.. youd lie down and do nothing. and THAT i dont believe. i dont believe in violence to solve anything but if someone corralled me into certain areas within my own country and did not allow me to move freely then itd be only so long i could be oppressed before id feel like punching someone in the face.

Byrnzie

usamamasan1 wrote:

Constructive?
Read above, it just doesn't agree with your hammmmas/terrorist/exterminate Israel attitude, that's all.

This is just another example of trolling. Ya see, I've never once said I support the extermination of Israel. You said that, because you are here to stir shit up.

Here's another definition of the word troll which will help you to see how this term applies to you:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... is-a-troll
"Troll," in the context of message boards and the like, describes somebody who is posting just to be confrontational or to raise hackles. One example might be a teenager who finds a Jewish message board and posts, "The Holocaust never happened." The teen may not know or care one way or the other--he just wants a reaction. He wants to piss people off. He is a troll.

There are more subtle trolling techniques as well. One Internet dictionary (http://www.whatis.com) gives a real example in which somebody posted about "the discovery of an ancient African carving containing a list of prime numbers." The poster listed some of the prime numbers supposedly on the carving, some of which weren't actually primes. People who saw the message, thinking he was serious, responded with corrections. The troll then announced that those who spent their time responding to him had been "hooked."

That suggests how the term got its start. Trolling, to those who don't spend all their time in front of the computer, is a method of fishing where you trail bait through the water from a slow-moving boat hoping to hook an unwary fish. An online troll does much the same.

usamamasan1

Nah, I support Israel. That's why I post here.

catefrances

usamamasan1 wrote:

Nah, I support Israel. That's why I post here.

i support everyones right to exist. thats why i post here.

Byrnzie

usamamasan1 wrote:

Nah, I support Israel. That's why I post here.

And you think that supporting the occupation and all of the other fucked-up policies of the Israeli government constitutes 'supporting Israel'?

How sad, and deluded.

Anyone who truly supports Israel supports the drive for a peaceful settlement in line with the international community and U.N Resolution 242.

You don't support Israel. You support more lies, discrimination, war, and suffering.

Byrnzie

usamamasan1 wrote:

Nah, I support Israel. That's why I post here.

http://www.insight-info.com/articles/item.aspx?i=1158
The US intellectual Noam Chomsky believes Israel's appetite for war on Iran and the Gazans will eventually lead to self-destruction.

"I wrote decades ago that those who call themselves 'supporters of Israel' are in reality supporters of its moral degeneration and probable ultimate destruction," the prominent linguist told CounterPunch.com in an interview.

"I have also believed for many years that Israel's very clear choice of expansion over security, ever since it turned down [Egypt's former President Muhammad Anwar] Sadat's offer of a full peace treaty in 1971, may well lead to that consequence," said the respected academician.

Chomsky made the remarks when asked by CounterPunch, 'During the last few months, Israel has accentuated its attacks on Gaza and is talking of an imminent ground invasion. There is also a strong possibility that it is involved in the killing of the Hezbollah leader Mughniyeh and it is pushing for stronger sanctions (including military) on Iran. Do you believe that Israel's appetite for war could eventually lead to its self-destruction?'

Replying to the same question, the historian Ilan Pappé, known for his anti-Zionist opinions and his analysis of Zionism in the colonial context, predicted that the Israeli regime would head to destruction, especially once the US withdrew its support.

"Yes, I think that the aggressiveness is increasing and Israel antagonizes not only the Palestinian world, but also the Arab and Islamic ones. The military balance of power, at present, is in Israel's favor, but this can change at any given moment, especially once the US withdrew its support," he opined.

The remarks come as Israeli deputy prime minister Shaoul Mofaz claimed on Friday that the Israeli regime would attack Iran should the country continue with its nuclear program.

usamamasan1

Gaza doesn't need a flotilla for supplies

Byrnzie

usamamasan1 wrote:

Gaza doesn't need a flotilla for supplies

I won't waste my time responding to any more of your lame comments.

"Troll," in the context of message boards and the like, describes somebody who is posting just to be confrontational or to raise hackles. One example might be a teenager who finds a Jewish message board and posts, "The Holocaust never happened." The teen may not know or care one way or the other--he just wants a reaction. He wants to piss people off. He is a troll.'

gimmesometruth27

usamamasan1 wrote:

Nah, I support Israel. That's why I post here.

please answer the question.

do you support the expansion of the jewish only settlements on the disputed land? yes or no?

it is an easy question. either you think it is right or you think it is wrong. you can not be ambivalent on that question if you claim to understand what is happening over there. it is that simple.

gimmesometruth27

Byrnzie wrote:

usamamasan1 wrote:

Gaza doesn't need a flotilla for supplies

I won't waste my time responding to any more of your lame comments.

"Troll," in the context of message boards and the like, describes somebody who is posting just to be confrontational or to raise hackles. One example might be a teenager who finds a Jewish message board and posts, "The Holocaust never happened." The teen may not know or care one way or the other--he just wants a reaction. He wants to piss people off. He is a troll.'

agreed...he just wants a reaction and has not contributed one ounce of substance to this thread. he will not answer direct questions. it is pointless to continue to discuss the issue with people who want to be childish.

that said, back on topic...

what is going to happen to the people on the flotilla if greece refuses to allow them to set sail? are they going to be held there? wouldn't that be extraordinary rendition? would they become prisoners of conscience?

gimmesometruth27

Byrnzie wrote:

usamamasan1 wrote:

I believe Israel has to defend itself.
Bwahahaha

What does ethnic cleansing, and a land-grab, have to do with self-defense?

Israel only has one right of self-defense, and that is to withdraw to the 1967 borders and then fortify those borders as it sees fit. Imprisoning 1.5 million people while continuing to build illegal Jewish-only settlements has nothing to do with self-defense.

But then you probably already know that and are just here to stir shit up by posting a load of gibberish.

perhaps he might believe as a lot of people do, most notably the US foreign policy of "the best defense is pre-emptive offense if you ever feel the slightest bit threatened".

fuck

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

fuck wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i agree d. i know people with roots in israel and have met a few from palestine. it is not the people that is the problem. the people want peace. it is those governing the people that are the problem. i am sure that if you lock those in the region in a room they can come out with a deal. but when you get outside influences like the us government sticking their nose in there, that is where things break down. i am tired of my government fucking things up for people in the rest of the world.

democracy?

yeah right....

you have no clue what you're talking about. the problem isn't just israeli government, it is israeli society, and the evidence is all the polls that are always conducted. when the majority of israelis vote in favor of discriminatory policies toward Palestinians, in favor of ethnic cleansing type policies such as population transfer, and are completely racist toward palestinians, this is not a coincidence. the problem in this conflict is not governments, it is the Zionist ideology. this is an ideological battle against a racist colonial ideology that needs to be completely rejected. unfortunately, the majority of israelis subscribe to this ideology, due to many reasons including an education system that brainwashes these kids.

a categorical rejection of the zionist ideology is what is needed to solve this conflict.

i am going on the official policy that the government of israel has seemingly implemented. am i palestinian? no. am i israeli? no. have i been to gaza? no. i go by what i have read in the world media, not just the american media, because nothing is ever covered in the american media. i base my position on the positions of people that i have met who are close to the situation. some of those are directly affected by it. i also base my position on the materials provided to me from people who used to post here that know more about the situation on the ground than i do. i am not going to condemn all israelis because there are plenty who have stood up against the occupation and the blockade.

I never said all Israelis should be condemned.

you seem to be posting an indictment of all jews, or all israeli citizens. sure, zionism is something that has seemed to be the offical policy in israel. just as imperialism seems to be the motivation of the united states. sure, leadership has chosen the policy that has been implemented, but that does not mean that all americans agree with or approve of our foreign policy, just as all israelis do not fail to see the insanity of the actions of the zionists.

an indictment of all jews? you're one step away from calling me anti-semitic now. your analogy is completely off by the way. my point was that zionism is not just a government policy. it is an ideology that is fed to israeli society, in schools, media, through religion, etc. it's nothing like "imperialism." also, the US enjoys a much wider spectrum of views than Israel does. when the majority of Israeli society supports population transfer of palestinians, can we say "the problem here is just the government, not the society" ??

i do not agree with zionist idealogy for several reasons, and i agree that that idealogy has created much more harm than good. you have been around long enough, through several screen name changes, to know that i am on your side in this conflict. but i am a realist in this situation. i do not forsee the complete rejection of zionist philosophy in israel, especially within one or two generations, just as i do not forsee the rejection of racist beliefs that seem to be indoctrinated in our southeastern states.

again, your analogy is off. it would be more apt to compare to the apartheid ideology that was rampant in south africa. many people called themselves realists and decided not to completely reject it and to try to "work with it."

with the hardliners seemingly in control you can bet your life on the fact that the israeli government is looking out for one thing, the interests of israel. the land it has aquired is not going to be given back without a war. and how do you propose they go about rejecting the zionist idealogy? you and i know that it is fucked up, but it takes more than simply acknowledging that. it takes a concerted effort by those that do not hold the power to cause real change. unfortunately any sort of rebellion would result in the united states acting on behalf of israel. most people on either side do not want war. they want a peaceful resolution to this conflict. as long as those outside of the situation hold sway over those directly in that situation nothing is ever going to be resolved.

most people on either side do not want war, that is true. but the palestinians will not stand for much longer being treated like they are sub species. the hardline zionists might be crazy enough to go to war to defend their racist ideology, but international pressure can be enough to stop them, so long as it includes the U.S.. Changing the current tide of unequivocal U.S. support for Israel from within the U.S. is the most important thing to do right now. Additionally, getting countries and institutions around the world to support the call for boycotting Israel to show Israelis that their racist Zionist ideology will no longer be tolerated in a supposedly neoliberal world is essential. Once they realize that this is no longer tolerated, a true solution can come about. Meanwhile, you guys can keep pretending like the Israelis will ever agree to an actual two-state solution, and that it would even solve the conflict. These crazy Zionists cannot be negotiated with. They must be made to see that their ideology is rejected by everyone and that they are truly alone in this. Am I actually saying all Israelis are evil? Of course not. Ilan Pappe, an Israeli academic, makes the exact same points I have made. Israeli society has a deep problem right now and it needs to be addressed. Go listen to his speeches on youtube.

Byrnzie

In other news, the poor Israeli's are angry at being criticized for shooting dead dozens of unarmed protesters in May:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14051618