i just had a lunch conversation with a colleague who is catholic and he basically said the sex scandals and gay marriage stuff is not what he subscribes to as a catholic ... my point is this: if the catholic church is currently known for its stance against gay marriage and their unwillingness to end the suffering of abuse and right the wrongs of the past - why would you want to be part of that ... many other religions teach similar principles as the catholic church as it relates to treatment of people, etc ... you don't need to be part of a religion to live by those values ...
the catholic church is corrupt and are doing too much to inflict suffering and misery to people ... if it were me - i would have jumped ship long ago ...
I think most churches are against gay marriage. I've never heard it preached as a central theme in Catholic services though.
i just had a lunch conversation with a colleague who is catholic and he basically said the sex scandals and gay marriage stuff is not what he subscribes to as a catholic ... my point is this: if the catholic church is currently known for its stance against gay marriage and their unwillingness to end the suffering of abuse and right the wrongs of the past - why would you want to be part of that ... many other religions teach similar principles as the catholic church as it relates to treatment of people, etc ... you don't need to be part of a religion to live by those values ...
the catholic church is corrupt and are doing too much to inflict suffering and misery to people ... if it were me - i would have jumped ship long ago ...
I think most churches are against gay marriage. I've never heard it preached as a central theme in Catholic services though.
uhhh ... other churches allow priests to marry, women priests, gay priests ...
I found a news story today about a Catholic Priest stealing 100K from his church to support his gambling addiction. I think this is the first victimless crime from the Church I've ever read about. :?
the catholic church is corrupt and are doing too much to inflict suffering and misery to people ... if it were me - i would have jumped ship long ago ...
Don't let the actions of a handful, even though they might be higher ups in the church, distort what you think about the catholic church. As I've said before, the most powerful part of the church is its people. I've been a catholic my whole life, and have experienced so many good things that the people of my church have done, mainly helping those in need.
I've also had a friend in the Peace Corps who worked directly with Catholic Aids Action in Namibia to help women and children with AIDS. Despite what most like to think, they were not there to convert the non-believers. They helped anyone who needed it. They even went against a lot of the church's teachings, condoms, pre-marital sex, etc.
I think it is similar to hate Americans because of all the terrible things our leadership has done. Its tough to beat this image since most of what the news reports are the bad things, and not the good things that churches and the US has done.
I believe that the priests and nuns are married (or in a relationship) with God / Jesus. In the end, I think it is an outdated practice and the primary reason where you get into problems with pedophiles. The Catholic church is in a dire need of priest and if they don't allow priest to marry, it's only going to get worst. All the dioceses around me have priests that were imported from India and they usually split time between several congregations due to lack of manpower.
Hell, the church just final allowed girls to be alter boys (or "person"). The wheels move slow.
As noted, I'm sure the official stand of the church is against gay marriage, but I've never seen it preached against or organized against ever. Now abortion is another story ....
I believe that the priests and nuns are married (or in a relationship) with God / Jesus. In the end, I think it is an outdated practice and the primary reason where you get into problems with pedophiles. The Catholic church is in a dire need of priest and if they don't allow priest to marry, it's only going to get worst. All the dioceses around me have priests that were imported from India and they usually split time between several congregations due to lack of manpower.
Hell, the church just final allowed girls to be alter boys (or "person"). The wheels move slow.
As noted, I'm sure the official stand of the church is against gay marriage, but I've never seen it preached against or organized against ever. Now abortion is another story ....
from the wikipedia site on same sex marriage ...
Proponents of same-sex marriage such as Freedom to Marry and Garden State Equality use the term marriage equality[37][38] to stress that they seek equality as opposed to special rights. Opponents of same-sex marriage such as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,[39] the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops,[40] and the Southern Baptist Convention[41] use the term traditional marriage to mean marriages between one man and one woman.[citation needed] Maggie Gallagher argues that equating same-sex and opposite-sex marriages changes the meaning of marriage and its traditions.[42]
Don't let the actions of a handful, even though they might be higher ups in the church, distort what you think about the catholic church. As I've said before, the most powerful part of the church is its people. I've been a catholic my whole life, and have experienced so many good things that the people of my church have done, mainly helping those in need.
I've also had a friend in the Peace Corps who worked directly with Catholic Aids Action in Namibia to help women and children with AIDS. Despite what most like to think, they were not there to convert the non-believers. They helped anyone who needed it. They even went against a lot of the church's teachings, condoms, pre-marital sex, etc.
I think it is similar to hate Americans because of all the terrible things our leadership has done. Its tough to beat this image since most of what the news reports are the bad things, and not the good things that churches and the US has done.
firstly ... i need to say that i'm not against catholics in general ... my point is this tho ... this is not a situation where there are some rogue catholics that are giving everyone else a bad name ... the leadership of the catholic church is corrupt and are doing a lot of bad things ...
what you have witnessed is not the act of catholicism - it is the act of good people doing good things ... something that is not confined to catholics only ... you even said some people have gone against the church ... so, what i am saying is you don't need to be part of an entity that is blatantly corrupt and seeks to cause suffering when you can be who you want and do what you want based on a value system that is predominant in most religions and cultures ...
what you have witnessed is not the act of catholicism - it is the act of good people doing good things ... something that is not confined to catholics only ... you even said some people have gone against the church ... so, what i am saying is you don't need to be part of an entity that is blatantly corrupt and seeks to cause suffering when you can be who you want and do what you want based on a value system that is predominant in most religions and cultures ...
I can see the logic in your argument but I also wonder if the Church will ever change if all the good people leave.
I can see the logic in your argument but I also wonder if the Church will ever change if all the good people leave.
my response to that is: who cares!? ... the catholic church is rooted in fear ... it's outdated and it's purpose is no longer valid ...
any organization that has systematically tried to cover up their wrong doings is an organization without integrity ... without integrity, there is no truth or respect ...
A priest and a Rabbi are riding the bus.
The Priest says to the Rabbi, 'I understand that your religion doesn't allow you to eat pork'.
Rabbi says, 'Yes... that is correct'.
The Priest says, 'That is a very strange custom... and doesn't make any sense.'
The Rabbi asks, 'Is it true that your religion doesn't allow you to have sex?'
To which the priest answers, 'Yes. We take a vow of celibacy.'
'Well', says the Rabbi, 'You should try it. It's a hell of a lot better than pork chops'.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I can see the logic in your argument but I also wonder if the Church will ever change if all the good people leave.
my response to that is: who cares!? ... the catholic church is rooted in fear ... it's outdated and it's purpose is no longer valid ...
any organization that has systematically tried to cover up their wrong doings is an organization without integrity ... without integrity, there is no truth or respect ...
While you don't care, plenty of other people do. If the Church has been a positive influence in someone's life--and for many people that's true!--leaving it is like breaking with your family. I don't expect you to understand since you seem to find it easy to dismiss everything that's good about the church along with the bad, but I find what's happening sad. I don't really practice my religion anymore but there are still times when I miss it in my life. My Catholic education influenced me in many ways that still form much of my thinking. I was taught to think for myself and to question authority, even the Church's authority. Catholic social teaching influenced my career choices as a helping professional. It makes me incredibly angry that the hierarchy is oblivious and uncaring but I've never felt that that is who the Church really is. It's the people who truly make up the Church and as an institution its survival will depend on its members.
While you don't care, plenty of other people do. If the Church has been a positive influence in someone's life--and for many people that's true!--leaving it is like breaking with your family. I don't expect you to understand since you seem to find it easy to dismiss everything that's good about the church along with the bad, but I find what's happening sad. I don't really practice my religion anymore but there are still times when I miss it in my life. My Catholic education influenced me in many ways that still form much of my thinking. I was taught to think for myself and to question authority, even the Church's authority. Catholic social teaching influenced my career choices as a helping professional. It makes me incredibly angry that the hierarchy is oblivious and uncaring but I've never felt that that is who the Church really is. It's the people who truly make up the Church and as an institution its survival will depend on its members.
i'm not saying churches don't do good things ... i can easily acknowledge the copious amount of good many churches have done ... my point simply is that the guise that good cannot be done outside of a religious institution is false ... i'm all for church bbq's and organized religion for people who take part ... my particular beef is with the authority known as the catholic church ... here in ontario, the catholic school board BANNED rainbow flags to be flown in their schools ... how oppressive is that!?? ... how intolerant is that!?? ... this is not some rogue catholic going too far ... this is the teachings and value system of the catholic church ... it is fear based and it preaches hate and intolerance ...
soo ... unless you agree with the coverups and the intolerance, i don't see how someone can support an institution that behaves the way it does ... if you think internal change is the way to go ... so be it ... personally, i think there are a plethora of other faiths that one can be proud of belonging to that you can affiliate yourself with ...
ones that wouldn't send pedophiles to different parts of a country so that they can molest other boys, ones that would allow two people to partake in a ceremony that shows their devotion to each other, one that would allow people the sexual freedoms afforded them by the human charter of rights ...
While you don't care, plenty of other people do. If the Church has been a positive influence in someone's life--and for many people that's true!--leaving it is like breaking with your family. I don't expect you to understand since you seem to find it easy to dismiss everything that's good about the church along with the bad, but I find what's happening sad. I don't really practice my religion anymore but there are still times when I miss it in my life. My Catholic education influenced me in many ways that still form much of my thinking. I was taught to think for myself and to question authority, even the Church's authority. Catholic social teaching influenced my career choices as a helping professional. It makes me incredibly angry that the hierarchy is oblivious and uncaring but I've never felt that that is who the Church really is. It's the people who truly make up the Church and as an institution its survival will depend on its members.
i'm not saying churches don't do good things ... i can easily acknowledge the copious amount of good many churches have done ... my point simply is that the guise that good cannot be done outside of a religious institution is false ... i'm all for church bbq's and organized religion for people who take part ... my particular beef is with the authority known as the catholic church ... here in ontario, the catholic school board BANNED rainbow flags to be flown in their schools ... how oppressive is that!?? ... how intolerant is that!?? ... this is not some rogue catholic going too far ... this is the teachings and value system of the catholic church ... it is fear based and it preaches hate and intolerance ...
soo ... unless you agree with the coverups and the intolerance, i don't see how someone can support an institution that behaves the way it does ... if you think internal change is the way to go ... so be it ... personally, i think there are a plethora of other faiths that one can be proud of belonging to that you can affiliate yourself with ...
ones that wouldn't send pedophiles to different parts of a country so that they can molest other boys, ones that would allow two people to partake in a ceremony that shows their devotion to each other, one that would allow people the sexual freedoms afforded them by the human charter of rights ...
Well...how about that...I agree a 100% with your statement. Religion should be the opposite and preach tolerance.
Very well written statement
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
the catholic church is corrupt and are doing too much to inflict suffering and misery to people ... if it were me - i would have jumped ship long ago ...
Don't let the actions of a handful, even though they might be higher ups in the church, distort what you think about the catholic church. As I've said before, the most powerful part of the church is its people. I've been a catholic my whole life, and have experienced so many good things that the people of my church have done, mainly helping those in need.
I've also had a friend in the Peace Corps who worked directly with Catholic Aids Action in Namibia to help women and children with AIDS. Despite what most like to think, they were not there to convert the non-believers. They helped anyone who needed it. They even went against a lot of the church's teachings, condoms, pre-marital sex, etc.
I think it is similar to hate Americans because of all the terrible things our leadership has done. Its tough to beat this image since most of what the news reports are the bad things, and not the good things that churches and the US has done.
1st let me say grew up catholic and attended church until my early 20s. for many reasons no longer attend and have my doubts but...
i find it quite odd that many catholics i know would never in a million years consider sending their children into a store, camp, neighborhood etc. laced with pedophiles, yet they have no qualms continuing to send their children to catcholic schools and catholic church. at no point would any of these people want or allow a pedophile to move next door to them, yet they will spend their own money to put their children into catholic schools and church. it makes absolutely no sense to me. and before someone says it is not every priest etc. i would say here in the philly suburbs there hasn't been one church that hasn't had some kid of scandal or a priest there at one point accused of these things. it boggles my mind these people continue to send their children to catholic schools and church.
I was raised strict Catholic and although me and 3 out of 5 siblings don't go to church much at all anymore, those who stay (including my deeply faithful parents) do so out of faith, not the Church's actions. And we went to high school where one of the priests ended up being convicted on pedifile charges! He was well loved.
Anyway, my point is that many people choose to put the blinders on as to the Church's behaviors and just continue to believe in the faith.
A study commissioned by the nation's Roman Catholic Bishops suggests that homosexuality and celibacy aren't at fault for priest sex abuse but the norms of the 1960's might be to blame.
...
How about they place the blame where the blame lies? On the pedophile priests and the organizational structure that covers up the crimes.
How about if others within the organizational structure of the Church... that nuns, administrators and other priests report the crimes to the police... just as I would report a co-worker to the police if I knew he commited a crime, instead of reporting him to the managerial structure of my company.
And how about the the Church itself, dealing with these crimes as crimes, instead of whisking the criminals away to South America in order to hide their criminal activities.
Blaming it on the 60s... yeah, that sound about right... considering the source: A study commissioned by the nation's Roman Catholic Bishops
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
people need to have sex, it's really just that simple, if they started letting preist get married it would go a long way to fixing this.
I don't know dude. Why aren't they sneaking around having sex with adult women? Or adult men? What about them not being married means that they have to have sex with children? Is there some loophole in the Bible that I don't know about that allows for priests to justify having sex with children while still thinking it is bad for them to sleep with an adult? I'm not being sarcastic, I just really haven't read the Bible and I'm not clear on some of these things.
I think there is a larger problem than marriage, although I'm all for priests getting married. I just think they would still be pedophiles whether or not they were married. The "people need to have sex" part I agree with, but these guys aren't just going out and having sex against the rules of the church, they're molesting kids.
The most astonishing attempt at an excuse I've ever heard is was an Italian priest who claimed that he "honestly" believed that it was only sinful for priests to have sexual relations "with women". :roll:
As the son of a former Catholic priest (who would return to the clergy in a heartbeat if married priests were permitted) I can tell you that there is definitely an element of the puritanical horror of sex within the church that does feed into this and is to some extent responsible for the pressure that leads to the warped thinking that leads to these crimes. My dad has told me quite a bit about what it was like to go to the seminary at 16 or 17 in rural prudish 1950s Ireland. Sex was not just taboo - it was barely even part of the consciousness. At that time, going into the seminary, a young man would only have had the barest idea of what sex was about, and - crucially - would have grown up with only minimal contact with girls, since just about all schools were single-sex, many of them boarding-schools and were run by a clergy (with that horror of sex) that wielded enormous power and influence in politics and in public life, and had a complete stranglehold on the education system. Priests were considered to be the most inviolate members of the community.
So what kind of ideas about sex would a man have who had spent his entire puberty in a closed male community, away from any contact with female peers, facing down a life of celibacy that he had barely understood the physical significance of when he chose it - or when his parent chose it for him? Luckily for me, my dad felt that celibacy was too much a burden for him to bear, and he had the courage to give it up.
But for those who stay in the priesthood, how healthy can that kind of upbringing be for their sexual identity? And how much less so if at school they had been the victim - as many were - of the abuses of a similarly warped priest? And then to find themselves as the most respected, and infallible, member of the community, where they could do no wrong, where there are no consequences for their actions? It's not a healthy mix.
I'm not saying that that is the only factor that contributes to clerical sex abuse. And I'm in no way justifying those who do prey upon, rape and abuse children. It is just to make the point that I think that clerical celibacy does play a role. But it is only a symptom of the combination of the puritanical, cowardly misogyny of the church and it's undeserved and corrupting power. The church contributes to the cultivation of this warped mindset, and then it refuses to face it, preferring to protect itself than to protect innocent children. It blames 60s culture as though we weren't all aware that this shit had been going on long before the 60s. It blames a few bad eggs, as if the lice come out of the woodwork across the whole church around the whole world were not indication enough that the rot was in the woodwork itself.
Essentially, the Catholic church is too cowardly to point the finger for these crimes at the institution that bears the greatest responsibility for them - itself. In my mind, the church can have no moral authority until it does so. Abolishing clerical celibacy is, I think an essential step. But it is only a step.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
i find it quite odd that many catholics i know would never in a million years consider sending their children into a store, camp, neighborhood etc. laced with pedophiles, yet they have no qualms continuing to send their children to catcholic schools and catholic church. at no point would any of these people want or allow a pedophile to move next door to them, yet they will spend their own money to put their children into catholic schools and church. it makes absolutely no sense to me. and before someone says it is not every priest etc. i would say here in the philly suburbs there hasn't been one church that hasn't had some kid of scandal or a priest there at one point accused of these things. it boggles my mind these people continue to send their children to catholic schools and church.
It boggles my mind that you think all catholic schools and churches are laced with pedophiles.
Seriously... all the Church has to do is this:
A. Quit trying to cover up sex crimes and report crimes when they are commited.
...
Problem solved.
How about doing something to prevent the crimes in the first place?
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Ten percent of men and one to three percent of women meet the psychological defination of being a pedophile. Pedophiles who aren't in any kind of treatment, who want to prey on children, are going to go to places where there are lots of children they can prey on- especially if they can get their parents and the community at large to trust them. So, some go into the clergy, some go into education, some form not-for-profits where they bring small children onto college campuses, some become foster parents, some become parents, and some are just "that nice guy" (or woman) in the neighborhood who's always interested in babysitting. Victims rarely come forward immediately after the crime, many states have statutes of limitations on the crime tha styme victim's searches for justice, and convictions are hard to come by- these days, they're almost impossible without medical evidence, photos, witnesses, or someone else corroborating what happened.
It's a bigger problem than most people want to think about, and if we can compartmentailze it in any way- by saying "it's a Catholic church thing", people are happy to do it, to everyone's detriment.
she holds the hand that holds her down, she will rise above!
The catholic church facilitates abuse
My own personal experiance in this follows
As a young man / boy I became an alterboy with my 2 older brothers at our local church/cathedral
our parish preist was one Father Vincent Ryan.
Vincent ryan at the time I met him had already assaulted other alters boys and instead of dealing with the matter in a proper way. he was moved out of the parish he was running at the time and moved to our parish.
He started an alterboy club that we attended most fridays in our parish hall and prestbury( preists house) I was unaware at the time he was abusing my freinds at these events.
eventually he was caught at it again.
was he punished, was he sent to the police, was he taken away from young boys
NO
he was moved to yet another parish and guess what he did there
your right he abused even more young men/boys
Im just so glad i was an abrasive angry young kid. he didnt come near me.
but my friends who were abused to this day still struggle.
the law finally did catch up with him. he was convicted and jailed
but still He holds the title of father, the catholic church has not stripped him of his titles.
I blame the church. once is bad enough, twice sin ful but three times is FUCKING CRIMINAL
The catholic church facilitates abuse
My own personal experiance in this follows
As a young man / boy I became an alterboy with my 2 older brothers at our local church/cathedral
our parish preist was one Father Vincent Ryan.
Vincent ryan at the time I met him had already assaulted other alters boys and instead of dealing with the matter in a proper way. he was moved out of the parish he was running at the time and moved to our parish.
He started an alterboy club that we attended most fridays in our parish hall and prestbury( preists house) I was unaware at the time he was abusing my freinds at these events.
eventually he was caught at it again.
was he punished, was he sent to the police, was he taken away from young boys
NO
he was moved to yet another parish and guess what he did there
your right he abused even more young men/boys
Im just so glad i was an abrasive angry young kid. he didnt come near me.
but my friends who were abused to this day still struggle.
the law finally did catch up with him. he was convicted and jailed
but still He holds the title of father, the catholic church has not stripped him of his titles.
I blame the church. once is bad enough, twice sin ful but three times is FUCKING CRIMINAL
I went to a Catholic high school long ago and a popular priest taught religion there. He was every body's buddy. But about 10 years ago, he was one of the many priests who were guilty of pedophilia and I believe he was removed from the diocese. One of the guys I knew in high school was one of his victims, but it wasn't well known until he admitted to touching and molesting young boys inappropriately as a school teacher recently. So these pedophile priests end up turning their victims into pedophiles because they learned that deviance as a child. Sick, isn't it?
Comments
My point exactly zarocat
uhhh ... other churches allow priests to marry, women priests, gay priests ...
http://www.americancatholic.org/News/Ho ... efault.asp
it's on the list love
http://wiki.freetalklive.com/List_of_victimless_crimes
Don't let the actions of a handful, even though they might be higher ups in the church, distort what you think about the catholic church. As I've said before, the most powerful part of the church is its people. I've been a catholic my whole life, and have experienced so many good things that the people of my church have done, mainly helping those in need.
I've also had a friend in the Peace Corps who worked directly with Catholic Aids Action in Namibia to help women and children with AIDS. Despite what most like to think, they were not there to convert the non-believers. They helped anyone who needed it. They even went against a lot of the church's teachings, condoms, pre-marital sex, etc.
I think it is similar to hate Americans because of all the terrible things our leadership has done. Its tough to beat this image since most of what the news reports are the bad things, and not the good things that churches and the US has done.
Hell, the church just final allowed girls to be alter boys (or "person"). The wheels move slow.
As noted, I'm sure the official stand of the church is against gay marriage, but I've never seen it preached against or organized against ever. Now abortion is another story ....
from the wikipedia site on same sex marriage ...
Proponents of same-sex marriage such as Freedom to Marry and Garden State Equality use the term marriage equality[37][38] to stress that they seek equality as opposed to special rights. Opponents of same-sex marriage such as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,[39] the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops,[40] and the Southern Baptist Convention[41] use the term traditional marriage to mean marriages between one man and one woman.[citation needed] Maggie Gallagher argues that equating same-sex and opposite-sex marriages changes the meaning of marriage and its traditions.[42]
firstly ... i need to say that i'm not against catholics in general ... my point is this tho ... this is not a situation where there are some rogue catholics that are giving everyone else a bad name ... the leadership of the catholic church is corrupt and are doing a lot of bad things ...
what you have witnessed is not the act of catholicism - it is the act of good people doing good things ... something that is not confined to catholics only ... you even said some people have gone against the church ... so, what i am saying is you don't need to be part of an entity that is blatantly corrupt and seeks to cause suffering when you can be who you want and do what you want based on a value system that is predominant in most religions and cultures ...
my response to that is: who cares!? ... the catholic church is rooted in fear ... it's outdated and it's purpose is no longer valid ...
any organization that has systematically tried to cover up their wrong doings is an organization without integrity ... without integrity, there is no truth or respect ...
The Priest says to the Rabbi, 'I understand that your religion doesn't allow you to eat pork'.
Rabbi says, 'Yes... that is correct'.
The Priest says, 'That is a very strange custom... and doesn't make any sense.'
The Rabbi asks, 'Is it true that your religion doesn't allow you to have sex?'
To which the priest answers, 'Yes. We take a vow of celibacy.'
'Well', says the Rabbi, 'You should try it. It's a hell of a lot better than pork chops'.
Hail, Hail!!!
i'm not saying churches don't do good things ... i can easily acknowledge the copious amount of good many churches have done ... my point simply is that the guise that good cannot be done outside of a religious institution is false ... i'm all for church bbq's and organized religion for people who take part ... my particular beef is with the authority known as the catholic church ... here in ontario, the catholic school board BANNED rainbow flags to be flown in their schools ... how oppressive is that!?? ... how intolerant is that!?? ... this is not some rogue catholic going too far ... this is the teachings and value system of the catholic church ... it is fear based and it preaches hate and intolerance ...
soo ... unless you agree with the coverups and the intolerance, i don't see how someone can support an institution that behaves the way it does ... if you think internal change is the way to go ... so be it ... personally, i think there are a plethora of other faiths that one can be proud of belonging to that you can affiliate yourself with ...
ones that wouldn't send pedophiles to different parts of a country so that they can molest other boys, ones that would allow two people to partake in a ceremony that shows their devotion to each other, one that would allow people the sexual freedoms afforded them by the human charter of rights ...
Well...how about that...I agree a 100% with your statement. Religion should be the opposite and preach tolerance.
Very well written statement
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Then I go on to say they may have a few good ethical players and fans and then continue to rip the organization to shreds.
1st let me say grew up catholic and attended church until my early 20s. for many reasons no longer attend and have my doubts but...
i find it quite odd that many catholics i know would never in a million years consider sending their children into a store, camp, neighborhood etc. laced with pedophiles, yet they have no qualms continuing to send their children to catcholic schools and catholic church. at no point would any of these people want or allow a pedophile to move next door to them, yet they will spend their own money to put their children into catholic schools and church. it makes absolutely no sense to me. and before someone says it is not every priest etc. i would say here in the philly suburbs there hasn't been one church that hasn't had some kid of scandal or a priest there at one point accused of these things. it boggles my mind these people continue to send their children to catholic schools and church.
Anyway, my point is that many people choose to put the blinders on as to the Church's behaviors and just continue to believe in the faith.
How about they place the blame where the blame lies? On the pedophile priests and the organizational structure that covers up the crimes.
How about if others within the organizational structure of the Church... that nuns, administrators and other priests report the crimes to the police... just as I would report a co-worker to the police if I knew he commited a crime, instead of reporting him to the managerial structure of my company.
And how about the the Church itself, dealing with these crimes as crimes, instead of whisking the criminals away to South America in order to hide their criminal activities.
Blaming it on the 60s... yeah, that sound about right... considering the source: A study commissioned by the nation's Roman Catholic Bishops
Hail, Hail!!!
precisely!
The most astonishing attempt at an excuse I've ever heard is was an Italian priest who claimed that he "honestly" believed that it was only sinful for priests to have sexual relations "with women".
As the son of a former Catholic priest (who would return to the clergy in a heartbeat if married priests were permitted) I can tell you that there is definitely an element of the puritanical horror of sex within the church that does feed into this and is to some extent responsible for the pressure that leads to the warped thinking that leads to these crimes. My dad has told me quite a bit about what it was like to go to the seminary at 16 or 17 in rural prudish 1950s Ireland. Sex was not just taboo - it was barely even part of the consciousness. At that time, going into the seminary, a young man would only have had the barest idea of what sex was about, and - crucially - would have grown up with only minimal contact with girls, since just about all schools were single-sex, many of them boarding-schools and were run by a clergy (with that horror of sex) that wielded enormous power and influence in politics and in public life, and had a complete stranglehold on the education system. Priests were considered to be the most inviolate members of the community.
So what kind of ideas about sex would a man have who had spent his entire puberty in a closed male community, away from any contact with female peers, facing down a life of celibacy that he had barely understood the physical significance of when he chose it - or when his parent chose it for him? Luckily for me, my dad felt that celibacy was too much a burden for him to bear, and he had the courage to give it up.
But for those who stay in the priesthood, how healthy can that kind of upbringing be for their sexual identity? And how much less so if at school they had been the victim - as many were - of the abuses of a similarly warped priest? And then to find themselves as the most respected, and infallible, member of the community, where they could do no wrong, where there are no consequences for their actions? It's not a healthy mix.
I'm not saying that that is the only factor that contributes to clerical sex abuse. And I'm in no way justifying those who do prey upon, rape and abuse children. It is just to make the point that I think that clerical celibacy does play a role. But it is only a symptom of the combination of the puritanical, cowardly misogyny of the church and it's undeserved and corrupting power. The church contributes to the cultivation of this warped mindset, and then it refuses to face it, preferring to protect itself than to protect innocent children. It blames 60s culture as though we weren't all aware that this shit had been going on long before the 60s. It blames a few bad eggs, as if the lice come out of the woodwork across the whole church around the whole world were not indication enough that the rot was in the woodwork itself.
Essentially, the Catholic church is too cowardly to point the finger for these crimes at the institution that bears the greatest responsibility for them - itself. In my mind, the church can have no moral authority until it does so. Abolishing clerical celibacy is, I think an essential step. But it is only a step.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
It boggles my mind that you think all catholic schools and churches are laced with pedophiles.
A. Quit trying to cover up sex crimes and report crimes when they are commited.
...
Problem solved.
Hail, Hail!!!
How about doing something to prevent the crimes in the first place?
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
A Chicago Priest is being sentenced today for stealing money from his Church to gamble with...
Can some PLEASE explain how this man gets in trouble with the law yet so many others are exempt when they are accused of molestation?
“Not one bishop, archbishop or cardinal has been fired or disciplined.”
It's a bigger problem than most people want to think about, and if we can compartmentailze it in any way- by saying "it's a Catholic church thing", people are happy to do it, to everyone's detriment.
exactly ... look at the fallout at penn state ... yet the catholic church continues to do the wrong thing with no one holding them accountable ...
My own personal experiance in this follows
As a young man / boy I became an alterboy with my 2 older brothers at our local church/cathedral
our parish preist was one Father Vincent Ryan.
Vincent ryan at the time I met him had already assaulted other alters boys and instead of dealing with the matter in a proper way. he was moved out of the parish he was running at the time and moved to our parish.
He started an alterboy club that we attended most fridays in our parish hall and prestbury( preists house) I was unaware at the time he was abusing my freinds at these events.
eventually he was caught at it again.
was he punished, was he sent to the police, was he taken away from young boys
NO
he was moved to yet another parish and guess what he did there
your right he abused even more young men/boys
Im just so glad i was an abrasive angry young kid. he didnt come near me.
but my friends who were abused to this day still struggle.
the law finally did catch up with him. he was convicted and jailed
but still He holds the title of father, the catholic church has not stripped him of his titles.
I blame the church. once is bad enough, twice sin ful but three times is FUCKING CRIMINAL
http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/nle ... -ryan.html
I went to a Catholic high school long ago and a popular priest taught religion there. He was every body's buddy. But about 10 years ago, he was one of the many priests who were guilty of pedophilia and I believe he was removed from the diocese. One of the guys I knew in high school was one of his victims, but it wasn't well known until he admitted to touching and molesting young boys inappropriately as a school teacher recently. So these pedophile priests end up turning their victims into pedophiles because they learned that deviance as a child. Sick, isn't it?