agreed. and it is a shame that people are so cynical thinking the guy is going to automatically walk or get a very light sentence. sadly it seems that there is not a lot of faith at all in the justice system...
for sure the justice system alot of times is weak,,some use technical details to get away of horrible crimes..
but i prefer it from revenge,anarchy,and civilians carry guns and play the new sheriff in town..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
agreed. and it is a shame that people are so cynical thinking the guy is going to automatically walk or get a very light sentence. sadly it seems that there is not a lot of faith at all in the justice system...
unfortunately it is the reality that if this is his first offense he will not get a harsh sentence. Recidivism rates are very high for pedophiles; they are not typically destined to long prison terms until they are multiple offenders (or have a slew of felony convictions for one incident), and their capacity for rehabilitation is very low.
""The pool where he approached the girls is actually a family pool where parents are in there with their kids and he had no right to be there. He had visited the centre by himself.
And no one suspected/noticed anything untoward? A busy family pool?
The reason we have fair trials and we don't take the law into our own hands is to make sure the one being punished is guilty. If we were allowed to go and 'put a bullet in his head' based on one persons accusation then how many innocent people will die this way? It would be easy to lie and say he/she did this or that. Just because someone said they did something or that it may LOOK like they did something doesn't mean they did.
I'm still kinda shocked anyone in the modern world would even suggest bypassing a fair trial. I really am.
This whole 'what if it was your daughter' argument is a load of crap too. If it was my daughter then sure my emotional state would suggest I would like to tear the guy apart but I think I would like to make sure the guy I'm ripping apart is at least the correct guy. The wrong guy has been chosen many times in a indentification line up by the victim. It's just not always that simple. What you're suggesting would just mean a hell of a lot innocent people will be needlessly killed all in the name of 'justice'.
Yeah I would put money on that this guy is guilty but I would rather be 100% sure before any action is taken. What if it was someone else (maybe not in this case but any other) and you kill the guy you thought was innocent and you're happy that 'justice' is served but yet the real crinimal is still at large because you didn't have a fair trial?
'Innocent until proven guilty' - There is a reason we follow that moniker. There really is. Sometimes you have to put your emotions aside and deal with it a straight head.
One cannot blame individuals for condemning a system that allows the debating skills of an individual to out maneuver another which allows a "sick" individual to walk about. History is full of these situations. However, if the posse is allowed to practise their form of justice, then we regress to times of archaic-isms. The system of justice is not only flawed, it is incompetent to the extent of the minds that agree on the manner in which to "best" approach and handle it. As with dealing with humans, what one sees as disgusting, another sees as beautiful, as is the justice we all live with every day. Do i think this man deserves a fair trial, yes. But at what cost to the collective populace. I agree with Godfather. Acting as if we are able to garner any information from this man's behavior/ thinking/ actions is ludicrous on our part, broaching on arrogance to the point of damning our society at large. Just my thots.
discard the Constitution.....? and faith in the justis system ??? pleeeeas give me a break, how many dirt bags are given a "light" sentense or a "second chance" and go back to the street and molest or kill again ? what about the rights you guys are always talking about,do those rights aply to the victims also ?.
I know a few guys that have gone to prison for different crimes (not perv crimes) and they all will tell you that you don't have legal right till you break the law then you get every chance in the world to save yourself finding loop holes etc. and a good lawyer can make that happen, so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
it's not a good idea to turn a blind eye to proven danger.
discard the Constitution.....? and faith in the justis system ??? pleeeeas give me a break, how many dirt bags are given a "light" sentense or a "second chance" and go back to the street and molest or kill again ? what about the rights you guys are always talking about,do those rights aply to the victims also ?.
I know a few guys that have gone to prison for different crimes (not perv crimes) and they all will tell you that you don't have legal right till you break the law then you get every chance in the world to save yourself finding loop holes etc. and a good lawyer can make that happen, so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
it's not a good idea to turn a blind eye to proven danger.
Godfather.
The answer to all those problems is not vigilante 'justice'. You are right in what you're saying about lighter sentances these days but to dish out punishment on hear-say or just on a 'hunch' is ludicrous on the highest level. We need an overhaul on sentancing and maybe what punishment and loop-holes etc NOT the chance for the wrongly accused the chance to go free.
discard the Constitution.....? and faith in the justis system ??? pleeeeas give me a break, how many dirt bags are given a "light" sentense or a "second chance" and go back to the street and molest or kill again ? what about the rights you guys are always talking about,do those rights aply to the victims also ?.
I know a few guys that have gone to prison for different crimes (not perv crimes) and they all will tell you that you don't have legal right till you break the law then you get every chance in the world to save yourself finding loop holes etc. and a good lawyer can make that happen, so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
it's not a good idea to turn a blind eye to proven danger.
Godfather.
The answer to all those problems is not vigilante 'justice'. You are right in what you're saying about lighter sentances these days but to dish out punishment on hear-say or just on a 'hunch' is ludicrous on the highest level. We need an overhaul on sentancing and maybe what punishment and loop-holes etc NOT the chance for the wrongly accused the chance to go free.
but in this topic do think the 12 year girl is not telling the truth ?
I just listened to a song by Don Mclean and a line in the song reminded me of this topic,
"we don't to see you bleed so come back in an hour when you're thru"
vigilante 'justice'....interesting, I'm not in favor of this and haven't said that(but in some cases not a bad idea) but I did say swift justice, do you know in some country's..at least one I have heard of the family of the victim is allowed to carry out the punishment or exacution what do you think of that ?
discard the Constitution.....? and faith in the justis system ??? pleeeeas give me a break, how many dirt bags are given a "light" sentense or a "second chance" and go back to the street and molest or kill again ? what about the rights you guys are always talking about,do those rights aply to the victims also ?.
I know a few guys that have gone to prison for different crimes (not perv crimes) and they all will tell you that you don't have legal right till you break the law then you get every chance in the world to save yourself finding loop holes etc. and a good lawyer can make that happen, so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
it's not a good idea to turn a blind eye to proven danger.
Godfather.
The answer to all those problems is not vigilante 'justice'. You are right in what you're saying about lighter sentances these days but to dish out punishment on hear-say or just on a 'hunch' is ludicrous on the highest level. We need an overhaul on sentancing and maybe what punishment and loop-holes etc NOT the chance for the wrongly accused the chance to go free.
but in this topic do think the 12 year girl is not telling the truth ?
I just listened to a song by Don Mclean and a line in the song reminded me of this topic,
"we don't to see you bleed so come back in an hour when you're thru"
Godfather.
Probably yes but I don't know her. The story in the article may not be the full story (which is why you have questioning and that see?). She could have a history of lieing for all I know. That's why you have a trial, to get all the facts and then act accordingly. What if you pissed some 16 year old girl off for some reason and she then runs and tells daddy that you molested her and he pops round and fires a chamber into your head? Justice yeah?
Just to be crystal clear here. I'm not saying shooting him is or isn't the correct punishment. I'm saying there is a reason we have the judicial system and not wild west vigilante punishment. Think long and hard what would happen to society as a whole if you allow this kind of system. Do you actually think we will be safer then we are now?
There is a guy who lives in my town who must be the spitting image of me as I get randomn strangers thinking i'm someone else. If he committed a crime I would like the chance to prove it wasn't me then have a mob come and hang me because I look exactly like someone else and then 2 days later oh wait it wasn't me. Oh well he's dead. TS.
.. do you know in some country's..at least one I have heard of the family of the victim is allowed to carry out the punishment or exacution what do you think of that ?
Godfather.
If you are thinking of certain arab countries, the victim/victim's family does have a say in the punishment from those 'suggested' by the courts (ie, cut hand off, execute...), though I don't think they are allowed to carry out the punishment/execution (but point me in the right direction if I am wrong). They can also accept blood money if they prefer.
vigilante 'justice'....interesting, I'm not in favor of this and haven't said that(but in some cases not a bad idea) but I did say swift justice, do you know in some country's..at least one I have heard of the family of the victim is allowed to carry out the punishment or exacution what do you think of that ?
Godfather.
That is for a different thread and discussion.
This thread is about the right to a fair trial to determine the guilty from the innocent to be sure the person whom the punishment is inflicted on is the correct person. This thread is not about what punishment the guilty should recieve.
The points I have noted are about the cause and effect of carrying out punishment without looking at the facts or a trial. What you percieve something to be at first isn't always correct. I have thought in the past that someone did this or that and I was so sure as the 'evidence' and circumstances fit perfectly only to proven wrong. From what LIMITED information we have on this situation it does indeed look as though he is guilty. It is imperative to make sure that he is before we carry out punishment. Again what that punishment should be is not what we are discussing here.
Doesn't mean I wouldn't personally want to just lock him away forever. And if it was my daughter and I got a hold of the guy, I would deal with the consequences of my actions and be fine with that.
But a society of intelligent minded people has to be better than it's worst elements.
When we start to allow the 'mob rule' then we no longer hold the moral high ground and justice would suffer.
Rational people can't allow that. So a fair trial is the only way to operate. There is no room for compromise.
so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
you are not affected by this, so i will if you will. how about we not be all Mr. Sanctimonious and stuff...
fair enuff Gimmi, I apoligize.
this kind of crime really angers me,to many times these crimes go unpunished and victim's have to live with the memorys and the pain of that day or days for the rest of their lives.
Doesn't mean I wouldn't personally want to just lock him away forever. And if it was my daughter and I got a hold of the guy, I would deal with the consequences of my actions and be fine with that.
But a society of intelligent minded people has to be better than it's worst elements.
When we start to allow the 'mob rule' then we no longer hold the moral high ground and justice would suffer.
Rational people can't allow that. So a fair trial is the only way to operate. There is no room for compromise.
this is a nice post. i completely agree with what i underlined and was trying to say that, but could not find a way to put it as succinctly.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
you are not affected by this, so i will if you will. how about we not be all Mr. Sanctimonious and stuff...
fair enuff Gimmi, I apoligize.
this kind of crime really angers me,to many times these crimes go unpunished and victim's have to live with the memorys and the pain of that day or days for the rest of their lives.
Godfather.
it's cool Godfather. these threads tend to get a little emotional, so i am not offended or anything. emotions come out due to the nature of the issue.
i know that people are passionate about putting this guy in the chair and will fight and argue and bloviate to do so, but i will fight equally as hard as any of those people on here to make sure he gets a fair trial. those are the rules that we have all agreed on in this society.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
you are not affected by this, so i will if you will. how about we not be all Mr. Sanctimonious and stuff...
fair enuff Gimmi, I apoligize.
this kind of crime really angers me,to many times these crimes go unpunished and victim's have to live with the memorys and the pain of that day or days for the rest of their lives.
Godfather.
for sure you are right..pedophiles crimes are away more hard than any other crimes..and make us all feel sick especially when the animal did it get away
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Not winding anyone up.
The guy ran away it is obvious he is guilty.
I did not say we must get rid of fair trials, only in cases such as this one where there is proof and a child is involved.
Isn't the point of a trial to determine if there is proof?
I thought you were done with us Lefty extremists? :roll:
discard the Constitution.....? and faith in the justis system ??? pleeeeas give me a break, how many dirt bags are given a "light" sentense or a "second chance" and go back to the street and molest or kill again ? what about the rights you guys are always talking about,do those rights aply to the victims also ?.
I know a few guys that have gone to prison for different crimes (not perv crimes) and they all will tell you that you don't have legal right till you break the law then you get every chance in the world to save yourself finding loop holes etc. and a good lawyer can make that happen, so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
it's not a good idea to turn a blind eye to proven danger.
Godfather.
How are the rights of the victim violated if the person is given a fair trial? No one can comment unless they've been sexually abused? Are you saying the victim should decide the punishment?
discard the Constitution.....? and faith in the justis system ??? pleeeeas give me a break, how many dirt bags are given a "light" sentense or a "second chance" and go back to the street and molest or kill again ? what about the rights you guys are always talking about,do those rights aply to the victims also ?.
I know a few guys that have gone to prison for different crimes (not perv crimes) and they all will tell you that you don't have legal right till you break the law then you get every chance in the world to save yourself finding loop holes etc. and a good lawyer can make that happen, so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
it's not a good idea to turn a blind eye to proven danger.
Godfather.
How are the rights of the victim violated if the person is given a fair trial? No one can comment unless they've been sexually abused? Are you saying the victim should decide the punishment?
"How are the rights of the victim violated if the person is given a fair trial? "......if the victims rights had not been violated that person wouldn't need a trial would he, any answers or comments I give on this issue are given out of anger so it best I back out.
any answers or comments I give on this issue are given out of anger so it best I back out.
Godfather.
even i have a different opinion and philoshophy in life of you ,i always notice ,that you respect the other members and never insolting them personally,so a conversation with you is always intresting,even i dont like or agree with you or is given out of anger as you say
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Wow! 4 pages so far on needing to give someone due process?
Heinous accusations. And if true, he should be "thrown down with the sodomites," but c'mon, guys. Without fair trials, where does it end? Where's the line where it's obvious and not obvious? This is the very definition of slippery slope.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Should sentences be stronger? Yes. However, these sentences should be given AFTER the FAIR trial.
One should never be the judge in their own cases.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Comments
but i prefer it from revenge,anarchy,and civilians carry guns and play the new sheriff in town..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
unfortunately it is the reality that if this is his first offense he will not get a harsh sentence. Recidivism rates are very high for pedophiles; they are not typically destined to long prison terms until they are multiple offenders (or have a slew of felony convictions for one incident), and their capacity for rehabilitation is very low.
I'm still kinda shocked anyone in the modern world would even suggest bypassing a fair trial. I really am.
This whole 'what if it was your daughter' argument is a load of crap too. If it was my daughter then sure my emotional state would suggest I would like to tear the guy apart but I think I would like to make sure the guy I'm ripping apart is at least the correct guy. The wrong guy has been chosen many times in a indentification line up by the victim. It's just not always that simple. What you're suggesting would just mean a hell of a lot innocent people will be needlessly killed all in the name of 'justice'.
Yeah I would put money on that this guy is guilty but I would rather be 100% sure before any action is taken. What if it was someone else (maybe not in this case but any other) and you kill the guy you thought was innocent and you're happy that 'justice' is served but yet the real crinimal is still at large because you didn't have a fair trial?
'Innocent until proven guilty' - There is a reason we follow that moniker. There really is. Sometimes you have to put your emotions aside and deal with it a straight head.
I know a few guys that have gone to prison for different crimes (not perv crimes) and they all will tell you that you don't have legal right till you break the law then you get every chance in the world to save yourself finding loop holes etc. and a good lawyer can make that happen, so save your holyer than thou atitude till you have been affected by a crime such as this.
it's not a good idea to turn a blind eye to proven danger.
Godfather.
The answer to all those problems is not vigilante 'justice'. You are right in what you're saying about lighter sentances these days but to dish out punishment on hear-say or just on a 'hunch' is ludicrous on the highest level. We need an overhaul on sentancing and maybe what punishment and loop-holes etc NOT the chance for the wrongly accused the chance to go free.
but in this topic do think the 12 year girl is not telling the truth ?
I just listened to a song by Don Mclean and a line in the song reminded me of this topic,
"we don't to see you bleed so come back in an hour when you're thru"
Godfather.
Godfather.
Probably yes but I don't know her. The story in the article may not be the full story (which is why you have questioning and that see?). She could have a history of lieing for all I know. That's why you have a trial, to get all the facts and then act accordingly. What if you pissed some 16 year old girl off for some reason and she then runs and tells daddy that you molested her and he pops round and fires a chamber into your head? Justice yeah?
Just to be crystal clear here. I'm not saying shooting him is or isn't the correct punishment. I'm saying there is a reason we have the judicial system and not wild west vigilante punishment. Think long and hard what would happen to society as a whole if you allow this kind of system. Do you actually think we will be safer then we are now?
There is a guy who lives in my town who must be the spitting image of me as I get randomn strangers thinking i'm someone else. If he committed a crime I would like the chance to prove it wasn't me then have a mob come and hang me because I look exactly like someone else and then 2 days later oh wait it wasn't me. Oh well he's dead. TS.
If you are thinking of certain arab countries, the victim/victim's family does have a say in the punishment from those 'suggested' by the courts (ie, cut hand off, execute...), though I don't think they are allowed to carry out the punishment/execution (but point me in the right direction if I am wrong). They can also accept blood money if they prefer.
But even this, it is AFTER a full trial.
APJ(after pearl jam).....i want to give him hugs and teddy bears.
That is for a different thread and discussion.
This thread is about the right to a fair trial to determine the guilty from the innocent to be sure the person whom the punishment is inflicted on is the correct person. This thread is not about what punishment the guilty should recieve.
The points I have noted are about the cause and effect of carrying out punishment without looking at the facts or a trial. What you percieve something to be at first isn't always correct. I have thought in the past that someone did this or that and I was so sure as the 'evidence' and circumstances fit perfectly only to proven wrong. From what LIMITED information we have on this situation it does indeed look as though he is guilty. It is imperative to make sure that he is before we carry out punishment. Again what that punishment should be is not what we are discussing here.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Doesn't mean I wouldn't personally want to just lock him away forever. And if it was my daughter and I got a hold of the guy, I would deal with the consequences of my actions and be fine with that.
But a society of intelligent minded people has to be better than it's worst elements.
When we start to allow the 'mob rule' then we no longer hold the moral high ground and justice would suffer.
Rational people can't allow that. So a fair trial is the only way to operate. There is no room for compromise.
fair enuff Gimmi, I apoligize.
this kind of crime really angers me,to many times these crimes go unpunished and victim's have to live with the memorys and the pain of that day or days for the rest of their lives.
Godfather.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
i know that people are passionate about putting this guy in the chair and will fight and argue and bloviate to do so, but i will fight equally as hard as any of those people on here to make sure he gets a fair trial. those are the rules that we have all agreed on in this society.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I thought you were done with us Lefty extremists? :roll:
How are the rights of the victim violated if the person is given a fair trial? No one can comment unless they've been sexually abused? Are you saying the victim should decide the punishment?
"How are the rights of the victim violated if the person is given a fair trial? "......if the victims rights had not been violated that person wouldn't need a trial would he, any answers or comments I give on this issue are given out of anger so it best I back out.
Godfather.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Heinous accusations. And if true, he should be "thrown down with the sodomites," but c'mon, guys. Without fair trials, where does it end? Where's the line where it's obvious and not obvious? This is the very definition of slippery slope.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
One should never be the judge in their own cases.
agree with this.