The Donald

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  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317

    JimmyV said:

    I would say that at a minimum Obamacare and the killing of bin Laden is legacy worthy. The supreme court ruling related to gay marriage is huge and has a lot to do with his leadership.

    Also the recovery from the 2008 recession occurring on his watch

    Cuba.

    Potentially this Iran deal.

    And he has another year and a half still to go.

    yep....exactly

    His War Crimes have been Forgiven.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177

    jeffbr said:

    jeffbr said:

    I would say that at a minimum Obamacare and the killing of bin Laden is legacy worthy. The supreme court ruling related to gay marriage is huge and has a lot to do with his leadership.

    Also the recovery from the 2008 recession occurring on his watch

    It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Obamacare was a step in the right direction, but has put a tremendous burden on the middle class who once were able to secure health insurance at affordable rates, but now have worse coverage for more money out of pocket. It needs some work. He certainly helped low income people afford insurance for the first time, so that was good. Killing Bin Laden may well be a legacy. Gay marriage and legalization of MJ were movements by citizens in states, and the feds have been following along playing catch up, so I don't give Obama much credit for that. He didn't even come to support gay marriage until his daughter convinced him.

    And the recovery from the 2008 recession was a good thing. I'm not sure exactly what he did other than continue the bailouts started by the Bush administration. Congress has put more controls in place, but I think the crooks on Wall Street got "get out of jail free" cards. Heads should have rolled. But we did recover. Whether that was actually due to Obama is debatable, but it did occur on his watch. Again, not sure if that will be a legacy, or a coincidence.
    Healthcare was never affordable prior to Obamacare. I'm not sure what situation you were in to make that comment but as a self employed middle class employer I call bullshit on that. My premiums consistently went up 20-25%/year until 2009 or so when healthcare reform was being discussed. It still increases every year but no where in the range that it did before.

    RElated to the recovery....he definitely had a hand in keeping the Bush tax increases in tact. The GOP wanted to roll them back and he wouldn't let them. The deficits would have been huge without that. And get this....unemployment and growth CONTINUED even though those tax increases went into effect....imagine that.
    I didn't intend for this to turn into any sort of Obama bashing on my part, BTW. As I said, I think he's doing a fine job. I just don't believe he'll be remembered as one of the greats.

    You can call bullshit on my experiences with health insurance, but in my situation, and those of most of my friends and peers, employer provided health insurance has been affected, and mostly negatively. Premiums rose, co-pays rose, prescription co-pays rose, deductibles rose. A couple of friends with individual policies were informed that their policies would not renew. Remember when there was backtracking by Obama after his promise of "if you're happy with your health insurance, keep it!" schtick? Many people were happy (relatively speaking) with their health insurance, and suddenly no longer had access to it. Again, I think it was a good thing that people who previously couldn't afford health insurance now have access. I'm just pointing out that it was not some sort of unmitigated success and legacy worthy. It was a good start and will need some work. Especially if we are still calling it the Affordable Healthcare Act, which to many of us is a misnomer. I'm glad you have had a different experience with it, and again am glad others can now get insurance they previously could not.
    Yes if the plan was subpar and had to catch up to the minimum requirements there would definitely be adjustments. I agree that sucks. But it really had to happen to get any type of meaningful reform. They are still putting the screws to us....hopefully the critics were right and Obamacare is the first step toward single payer.
    It was a lot deeper than just plans being subpar. There were plans that were fine, but insurers got rid of them in order to cover margins on other plans they were required to offer. The plan I used to have I used to use. The plan I currently have I can't afford to use. I now view it as catastrophic coverage, rather than using it for preventative and wellness care. Same insurance company, same employer, same premium coming out of my paycheck. Much worse coverage.

    Anyway, I do agree with your last sentence. What we had wasn't working for the poor. What we have isn't working for many who were fine under the previous system. We need to move to single payer, and see if we can create a system that everyone can use, that can control healthcare costs, and that provides access and service when it is needed.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    jeffbr said:

    callen said:

    Kind of sidetracked.

    Donald does seem to be building momentum. This is gonna be fun.

    Haha, back on track. It is going to be fun to watch. Donald will never be able to win the party nomination, much less the presidency, but he is certainly providing entertainment, and much more importantly, forcing discussion of issues. He's a kook in some ways, but he is making both Republicans and Democrats think about and talk about issues. For an elite, arrogant, rich guy, it seems like he's got a populist vibe going somehow. I will be curious to see how he does in the debates. I don't think he's used to being told what to do, and is usually the one giving direction, so who knows if he can even follow the rules of the debate? I do imagine him standing there smirking while some of the other Republican candidates start flushing and sweating.
    Warming up to the guy. Liked what he said about negotiating with Iranians.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    Idris said:

    I agree...History will look back at Obama very favorably..As long as History is written by a person with no Eyes, ears and half a brain.

    Spoken like a blind, deaf, half-brain.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,567
    edited July 2015
    Really can you tell us how your personal life has been affected by this President what has happened to you that he is at fault for ....talking to you Idris
    Post edited by josevolution on
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    edited July 2015
    rgambs said:

    Idris said:

    I agree...History will look back at Obama very favorably..As long as History is written by a person with no Eyes, ears and half a brain.

    Spoken like a blind, deaf, half-brain.
    lame
    Post edited by Idris on
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    With records on the books in job growth and stock market highs, landmark healthcare reform and civil rights gains, no costly, unpopular wars or major ethical scandals, all from the first black President with the most obstructionist legislative body in living memory... Yeah favorable seems reasonable.
    Many presidents have done worse and are still viewed favorably.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    Oh yeah, he also majorly slowed Iran's bid for nuclear weaponry and hasn't had a major terrorist attack under his watch.
    Let's all hope those hold up over time!
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    The Geneva Convention, Human rights, international law...Do these things mean anything to some of you? When laws/rights have been broken so flagrantly.

    NSA spying, Patriot Act, lies, hypocrisy. Obama..He's got em all.

    I'm calling out our Circus Monkey Obama, just like I called out the previous circus Monkey, Bush. When I talked about the War Crimes of W Bush...Democrats loved me!

    I hold that same standard towards Obama, and guess what? It's like..How dare you! He tried his best, blame the republicans. Its not his fault blah blah blah

    He is a War Criminal.

    Defend his killings all you want, he's still a War Criminal.
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    rgambs said:

    Oh yeah, he also majorly slowed Iran's bid for nuclear weaponry and hasn't had a major terrorist attack under his watch.
    Let's all hope those hold up over time!

    rgambs said:

    Oh yeah, he also majorly slowed Iran's bid for nuclear weaponry and hasn't had a major terrorist attack under his watch.
    Let's all hope those hold up over time!

    He has expanded the U.S. empire to a greater degree than Bush. Look at what he's done in Africa.

    No Major terrorist attack under his watch,

    He just committed the acts of terrorism himself with drones and Proxy armies/corrupt governments IN other countries Under His watch.



  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    edited July 2015
    rgambs said:

    With records on the books in job growth and stock market highs, landmark healthcare reform and civil rights gains, no costly, unpopular wars or major ethical scandals, all from the first black President with the most obstructionist legislative body in living memory... Yeah favorable seems reasonable.
    Many presidents have done worse and are still viewed favorably.

    Many presidents have done worse and are still viewed favorably...? If anything, that shows how stupid we are,

    major ethical scandals? unpopular wars? Oh lord,

    I'll be back,
    Post edited by Idris on
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    Listen Idris, I agree with you about the drone strikes, the horrible violations and war criminal status. I am not happy with the things he has done, but looking at the big picture it's unrealistic to consider him a bad President. All Presidents are deplorable in the ways you have listed so you have to slide the scale down and look at him in relation to those who came before.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    rgambs said:

    Listen Idris, I agree with you about the drone strikes, the horrible violations and war criminal status. I am not happy with the things he has done, but looking at the big picture it's unrealistic to consider him a bad President. All Presidents are deplorable in the ways you have listed so you have to slide the scale down and look at him in relation to those who came before.

    Oh, I have...I assure you, I have. But if the standard is only in relation to his predecessors then We might as well re-write law to match said standard..Sure, All(?) of them have/had War Criminals/status? So Don't prosecute him (Obama) because he was/is apparently not as big of a killer as the killer before him is/was.

    But fine, in relation to other U.S. Presidents..I see a man, who has Manipulated a population like NO other before him. Even after all of his bombs and blunders people (your post above) will even admit that he has "War Criminal Status", but still defend him, suddenly the scales of justice need balancing, the criteria of what is 'good' (as in generally agreed upon secular(?) ethics etc.) has been altered. Obama IS Smart. That's for sure. Hope/Change, Right?

    Talking about "looking at the big picture". You say it as if I'm NOT doing so. I am. Difference is we see the world through different lenses.

    We're going on about this 'Iran Deal', The Historic Obama Iran Deal.

    What do you even think it all means? Well, Let's say Israel started leveling Tehran Tomorrow, do you think Obama is going to stand with Iran, Or Israel? Watch those weapons flow. But we'd still defend Obama and his admin. Iran deal? Yeah, Iran Deal.
    (I am happy to see tensions potentially Lifted off of Iran, Tensions that should NOT of been put on them in the first place, they have signed the NPT)

    This Iran Deal has more to do with The U.S. being unable to handle a War with Iran right now and Iran obviously being unable to fully take on the U.S. without suffering greatly.

    If they were to go at it? Iran would probably be so hurt, ISIS jumps in. Then the U.S. really has problems. They Face a couple of common enemies right now. ISIS. (for starters)

    A deal makes sense. Like Drowned out Said. It's temporary. A War with Iran is probably a decade away.

    We bomb countries, support corrupt leaders around the world, and it's 'normal' and apparently all fine, Forget laws, rights blah blah,

    Questioning/and or speaking against the status quo is brushed aside as "Idealistic beliefs"...this is "not how the world works". (As Callen says)

    Sure, IT IS that way, because we allow(ed) it to BE THAT WAY.

    We have the potential to alter this hypocrisy based reality we live in. We stand on the edge of the Multiverse with an almost infinite amount of possibilities (But Only a few outcomes). What is our end goal? What do we really want? Emotion, Ego aside. What are we doing? Where are we going? Everything matters, every moment matters, what we do, what we say. It ALL matters. What we put out in this world, matters. The Kinds of people we support. It all matters, one thing is connected to the next. What kind of a world do we really want for ourselves, for our children. Real authentic change, its NOT a dream.

    Flaunting ourselves like some great democracy, then Election after election, the same thing. The 'lesser of two evils'. Why? Because the other 3rd party guy will Never win, Why? (again) because we won't allow it. Even if we agreed with a third party candidate, many of us would still NOT vote for him/her.

    So from this point on, what Can we do...

    We MUST(?) hold our leaders accountable for their actions. If Obama went after Bush and Cheney at the start of his first term..How much opposition would he be getting now? (an excuse often given by many of his supporters, "the republicans blocked it, that's why Obama cant really do anything") Bush had the dems in line when he needed them. Obama, missed his opportunity early on.

    Going After Bush&Cheney would've set the stage for real change. It's NOT done by refusing to do what should've been done..Then spend your two Terms doing Similar corrupt, unjust actions/Breaking laws like the ones before you.

    Let's Set a standard. Watch how quickly people straighten up. Those Vipers on the Hill. We, have the power, NOT them. But fine, Obama you are totally forgiven, No War Crime Charges. You may Resume The Drone Strikes and continued U.S. Hegemony, We also give you a pass on the Mass Data collection and Spying.

    So how about this...Whoever is elected next. Lets hold that persons feet to the fire. Demand more, higher our standards. How About That? Simple right?

    Enter- why we should elect a billionaire. (NOT Trump)
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    No human including a billionaire would of been able to bring war crimes against Bush. The American people would not have supported this. Just not realistic.

    Do like your idealism, we have settled and maybe need to raise our standards. In the end though think we got almost the best with Obama that the circumstances would allow.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • IdrisIdris Posts: 2,317
    callen said:

    No human including a billionaire would of been able to bring war crimes against Bush. The American people would not have supported this. Just not realistic.

    Do like your idealism, we have settled and maybe need to raise our standards. In the end though think we got almost the best with Obama that the circumstances would allow.

    (It's just repetitive at this point, But you say that you like this 'idealism'..So Follow it, be it. That's how something becomes Real. Reality is the 'constant' state of 'now'. A point reached when (in this case?) our preconceived notions and our emotions are set aside -with understanding- and we open are minds and logically process information/data presented to us with 'sound'-judgment/reasoning based on universal Truths/simple common sense(?)...Let's observe the particles, and create a new reality, based on what we internally know to be 'True'/'Right')

    So you say.."The American people would not have supported this"?? (war crimes against Bush)

    Indeed, We really have problems in this country. That's why things need to change. Somethings gotta give.

    (and If it's unrealistic to prosecute people (any people/groups) for breaking laws. Whats the point of having these laws? What does that mean for us as a society? As a people? What does that make us? It makes us Hypocrites who deserve the fate that befalls all empires. It's End)

    So NOT "maybe" Raise our Standards..Raise our Standards NOW. New election. Lets make em work.

    (You)
    "we got almost the best with Obama that the circumstances would allow"

    Sure. Again. The circumstances...The 'State of Affairs' we've allowed to exist. To Thrive blah blah blah
  • usamamasan1usamamasan1 Posts: 4,695
    Trump gives out Lindsey Graham’s cellphone number

    “What a stiff,” Trump said of Graham. “He doesn’t seem like a very bright guy. He actually probably seems to me not as bright as Rick Perry. I think Rick Perry probably is smarter than Lindsey Graham.”

    awesome
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    I will never call Trump boring anyway. He definitely has entertainment value going for him. He has a way with his totally inappropriate words, lol. His lack of tact is disturbing for someone who wants to be the President, but hahaha, he's kind of treat to watch run.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    Another little sidetrack here while I try to wrap my head around mamasan's comment above...

    Re Idris's statements above: It's easy for someone like me to be an Obama fan. His winning the election broke the color barrier (on the night of O's first victory, Spike Lee declared, "He changed the world", and, in that regard, he did). He's well spoken and personable. He's far more intelligent than at least a few of his predecessors. He's been more outspoken that any previous president about environment and global warming (no, I'm not afraid to use that term). Overall, he seems much more progressive than any pres we've had in a while.

    But it takes some courage and critical thinking to go beyond the urge to rest on things like "he's better than the last one" or "at least he's well spoken and smart", and look at the facts. And Idris has pointed out some good, hard facts. The bottom line is, we would do well to ask for more.

    This is much similar to what Derrick Jensen has said in books like Endgame, A Language Older Than Words, and The Culture of Make Believe. We want to make believe that a little better is all we should expect or (worse) is good enough.

    I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around anything Trump saying as being awesome. Guess I'll have to let that one go. Besides, Trump, let alone any of the other GOP front runners or even Hillary for that matter are going to do the kind of work that will help us pull civilization out of the ditch. That would require an amazing leader and waking up a very large number of turned off brains.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    Brian think the "large number" are comfortably numb. They eat sleep breed and watch corporate produced programming. Until they starve, content with their existence. Afraid no leader how great will get them out of their stupor.

    Look at all on porch or AET that rather have tooth pulled then venture in here.
    Why I value differing opinions as our resident GF and sad when some of our biggest voices go missing or are banished. Salute to Unsung Bynzie and my buddy BB.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • WhatYouTaughtMeWhatYouTaughtMe Posts: 4,957
    brianlux said:

    Another little sidetrack here while I try to wrap my head around mamasan's comment above...

    Re Idris's statements above: It's easy for someone like me to be an Obama fan. His winning the election broke the color barrier (on the night of O's first victory, Spike Lee declared, "He changed the world", and, in that regard, he did). He's well spoken and personable. He's far more intelligent than at least a few of his predecessors. He's been more outspoken that any previous president about environment and global warming (no, I'm not afraid to use that term). Overall, he seems much more progressive than any pres we've had in a while.

    But it takes some courage and critical thinking to go beyond the urge to rest on things like "he's better than the last one" or "at least he's well spoken and smart", and look at the facts. And Idris has pointed out some good, hard facts. The bottom line is, we would do well to ask for more.

    This is much similar to what Derrick Jensen has said in books like Endgame, A Language Older Than Words, and The Culture of Make Believe. We want to make believe that a little better is all we should expect or (worse) is good enough.

    I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around anything Trump saying as being awesome. Guess I'll have to let that one go. Besides, Trump, let alone any of the other GOP front runners or even Hillary for that matter are going to do the kind of work that will help us pull civilization out of the ditch. That would require an amazing leader and waking up a very large number of turned off brains.

    Well said. Before we can tackle any of these enormous problems, they need to be talked about to start with. Over population and the whole idea that any type of war/killing is bad would be a fine damn start. Although I guess someone with a warped view could say one of those could take care of the other.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    Disease and starvation is a much more efficient and natural method of population control. War is extremely inefficient for that purpose. =)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    PJ_Soul said:

    Disease and starvation is a much more efficient and natural method of population control. War is extremely inefficient for that purpose. =)

    So true! Unfortunately (though some truly radically misanthropic folks would say "fortunately"), species extinction is even more efficient.

    callen said:

    Brian think the "large number" are comfortably numb. They eat sleep breed and watch corporate produced programming. Until they starve, content with their existence. Afraid no leader how great will get them out of their stupor.

    Look at all on porch or AET that rather have tooth pulled then venture in here.
    Why I value differing opinions as our resident GF and sad when some of our biggest voices go missing or are banished. Salute to Unsung Bynzie and my buddy BB.

    Callen, this is what I have for so long (probably to my own mental detriment, haha) found exasperating. I don't propose that everyone be as focused on these difficult issue as some of us here are, but that so many people seem to move through life as though the biggest concern they have is whether to buy the cheaper Wranglers or go for the pricier Levis is (to say the least) perplexing. We're all in this house burning down and the place is crammed with people watching "Nightly A-muse-ment" rather than dialing 911 or better yet grabbing a bucket.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    Brian, scary part is when they read the news headlines and go vote.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,567
    He gave out Lindsay graham cell number at a rally yesterday it was the real thing , what an asshat
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388

    He gave out Lindsay graham cell number at a rally yesterday it was the real thing , what an asshat

    I laughed my tusch off. Lindsey's horrible human so I think what trump did was wrong couldn't have happened to a more deserving g person. Ha
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • InHiding80InHiding80 Posts: 7,623
    Lindsey's laughing it off because he now has the right to marry McCain. He ain't mad at all.
  • InHiding80InHiding80 Posts: 7,623
    Another right of Hitler retard sides with Trump because bowing to POW McCain is "too left" for the GOP.

    It's Bill O The Clown this time.

    mediamatters.org/video/2015/07/21/bill-oreilly-blames-corrupt-media-for-trying-to/204525
  • usamamasan1usamamasan1 Posts: 4,695
    "Up until Trump announced his candidacy the conventional wisdom was that you had to be a professional politician in order to run," Cuban continued. "You had to have a background that was politically scrubbed. In other words, smart people who didn't live perfect lives could never run. Smart people who didn't want their families put under the media spotlight wouldn't run. The Donald is changing all of that. He has changed the game and for that he deserves a lot of credit.

    "Now maybe we will accept candidates warts and all and look at what they can do rather than what headlines they create," Cuban concluded. "Congrats Donald."
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,840

    "Up until Trump announced his candidacy the conventional wisdom was that you had to be a professional politician in order to run," Cuban continued. "You had to have a background that was politically scrubbed. In other words, smart people who didn't live perfect lives could never run. Smart people who didn't want their families put under the media spotlight wouldn't run. The Donald is changing all of that. He has changed the game and for that he deserves a lot of credit.

    "Now maybe we will accept candidates warts and all and look at what they can do rather than what headlines they create," Cuban concluded. "Congrats Donald."

    I remember you being very comfortable with Obama's "warts"
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    I'm not a fan of trump at all. But this woman sounds like her feelings got hurt 5 years ago and all of a sudden is whining about it? Go away. So trump thought you were disgusting for wanting to pump her beast milk in the middle of a deposition. Grow up.
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