canadian government held in contemp

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  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    lukin2006 wrote:
    As far as the long form census goes, I'm with Harper on that, most of that info is none of the governments business. I remember my parents filling one out when I was a kid and one of the questions was what religion was each member of your household, once again not the governments business, but if people want volunteer the info, then go ahead.

    The Long form census is a very important of leading a country, the information provided help our country figure out how the country is going. it provides valuable information to our elected leaders and also makes sure that the government is creating policies not just for the now but also for the future. By taking away the Long form census, the government can state any "facts" they want to show and not be held accountable.

    Thats why you can have Harper and his government talk about unreported crime and how we must build more prisons.
    I can also get into how even business and social services agencies also use this info.

    here are some reason why these forms are important.

    http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/cens ... ctors-warn

    http://www.psac-afpc.org/news/2010/issu ... 2b-e.shtml

    http://www.wellesleyinstitute.com/blog/ ... l-council/
  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/NHS-ENM/ref/ ... ng.cfm#Q22

    I don't know if people have ever seen the census so i thought it might be good for people to read.
  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    here is the party that people trust :?

    http://wn.com/Stephen_Harper%27s_Broken ... st_Promise
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    fife wrote:
    here is the party that people trust :?

    http://wn.com/Stephen_Harper%27s_Broken ... st_Promise

    clearly didn't make a difference ... the reality is that the majority of conservatives voters vote blindly ...
  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    polaris_x wrote:
    fife wrote:
    here is the party that people trust :?

    http://wn.com/Stephen_Harper%27s_Broken ... st_Promise

    clearly didn't make a difference ... the reality is that the majority of conservatives voters vote blindly ...

    Thats true but where the hell are the liberals and NDP and bloc in reminding people. where is the media is all this. where is the uproar from the media about how Harper only allows 5 questions which are pre approved by his office. Hell even a junior staff member has talked about this.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    fife wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    As far as the long form census goes, I'm with Harper on that, most of that info is none of the governments business. I remember my parents filling one out when I was a kid and one of the questions was what religion was each member of your household, once again not the governments business, but if people want volunteer the info, then go ahead.

    The Long form census is a very important of leading a country, the information provided help our country figure out how the country is going. it provides valuable information to our elected leaders and also makes sure that the government is creating policies not just for the now but also for the future. By taking away the Long form census, the government can state any "facts" they want to show and not be held accountable.

    Thats why you can have Harper and his government talk about unreported crime and how we must build more prisons.
    I can also get into how even business and social services agencies also use this info.

    here are some reason why these forms are important.

    http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/cens ... ctors-warn

    http://www.psac-afpc.org/news/2010/issu ... 2b-e.shtml

    http://www.wellesleyinstitute.com/blog/ ... l-council/

    Then come up with a system that makes it voluntary, but I am not interested in providing the government information, they know to much and always want to more, nosie pricks... :D:D
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    bytterman wrote:
    In some respects our economy, at least our banking sector, is envied internationally. I don't think that's debatable, although other aspects of how we fared out of the recession certainly are. Anyway Harper has always shielded himself from the unscripted, that's why the debates are so important, and why having four people attack him reduces the value of the excercise. Hopefully the moderator can get them to use their inside voices...

    our banking sector is definitely what saved us to some respect ... but guess what the economists at the banks want? ... not more corporate tax cuts and such ... the chief ecnomist for TD wrote a few years ago that a strong social infrastructure is what is key to a stable economy and that prosperity gaps are not good overall ... case in point: the US ... well - harper is taking us down that road ...

    How you going to pay for this? Also the responsibilities for social programs falls on the provinces as well, 2 of the biggest social programs, education and health are the provinces responsibility, the feds provide transfer payments, but lately I haven't heard any province complaining about transfer payments.

    I know, raise corporate taxes, and if corporation and manufacturers pack up and leave, who pays? where do these folks get jobs? I'll guarantee you 1000% that if you went to a community like chatham-kent and did a survey that asked the question would you rather see corporate taxes go up or would you rather see a auto manufacturing plant paying in the 20's locate in your community, guarantee over 90% would choose the jobs.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • byttermanbytterman Posts: 136
    polaris_x wrote:
    fife wrote:
    here is the party that people trust :?

    http://wn.com/Stephen_Harper%27s_Broken ... st_Promise

    clearly didn't make a difference ... the reality is that the majority of conservatives voters vote blindly ...

    Not just conservative voters, there are blind opinions on all sides of the spectrum. I'd forgotten about the income trust thing.
  • byttermanbytterman Posts: 136
    fife wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    fife wrote:
    here is the party that people trust :?

    http://wn.com/Stephen_Harper%27s_Broken ... st_Promise

    clearly didn't make a difference ... the reality is that the majority of conservatives voters vote blindly ...

    Thats true but where the hell are the liberals and NDP and bloc in reminding people. where is the media is all this. where is the uproar from the media about how Harper only allows 5 questions which are pre approved by his office. Hell even a junior staff member has talked about this.

    The media have bitched about the control Harper exercises since at least 2006. Regardless, the media's job is not to lead but to report, keeping fact and opinion very distinct.
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Who do you vote for anyways, the Liberals and NDP are making promises that they are unlikely to keep or can"t afford, and the promises Harper is making won't happen till the deficit is paid.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    lukin2006 wrote:
    fife wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    As far as the long form census goes, I'm with Harper on that, most of that info is none of the governments business. I remember my parents filling one out when I was a kid and one of the questions was what religion was each member of your household, once again not the governments business, but if people want volunteer the info, then go ahead.

    The Long form census is a very important of leading a country, the information provided help our country figure out how the country is going. it provides valuable information to our elected leaders and also makes sure that the government is creating policies not just for the now but also for the future. By taking away the Long form census, the government can state any "facts" they want to show and not be held accountable.

    Thats why you can have Harper and his government talk about unreported crime and how we must build more prisons.
    I can also get into how even business and social services agencies also use this info.

    here are some reason why these forms are important.

    http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/cens ... ctors-warn

    http://www.psac-afpc.org/news/2010/issu ... 2b-e.shtml

    http://www.wellesleyinstitute.com/blog/ ... l-council/

    Then come up with a system that makes it voluntary, but I am not interested in providing the government information, they know to much and always want to more, nosie pricks... :D:D

    making in voluntary makes the stats unreliable. it doesn't help anyone
  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Who do you vote for anyways, the Liberals and NDP are making promises that they are unlikely to keep or can"t afford, and the promises Harper is making won't happen till the deficit is paid.

    come on, you can't believe that about Harper. the guy has lied multiple times. I personally don't trust him.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    How you going to pay for this? Also the responsibilities for social programs falls on the provinces as well, 2 of the biggest social programs, education and health are the provinces responsibility, the feds provide transfer payments, but lately I haven't heard any province complaining about transfer payments.

    I know, raise corporate taxes, and if corporation and manufacturers pack up and leave, who pays? where do these folks get jobs? I'll guarantee you 1000% that if you went to a community like chatham-kent and did a survey that asked the question would you rather see corporate taxes go up or would you rather see a auto manufacturing plant paying in the 20's locate in your community, guarantee over 90% would choose the jobs.

    well - who's gonna pay when we have high unemployment, who's gonna pay because people are getting less healthy with polluted air and water? ... it's all interconnected ... when you cut day care and after school programs ... guess what - there are long term consequences ... that we all ultimately pay for ...

    manufacturers are already gone - and it has nothing to do with tax rates ... it's a myth that corporations pay too much taxes and it's also a myth that if they get tax cuts, they are going to higher more people ... corps are laying off people everywhere ...

    look at all these towns in SW Ontario ... they are all depressed economies ... what has the conservative policy done for these communities?

    the whole trickle down economics theory doesn't work ... never has ...
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Who do you vote for anyways, the Liberals and NDP are making promises that they are unlikely to keep or can"t afford, and the promises Harper is making won't happen till the deficit is paid.

    The only way he's gonna get rid of the defecit is through gutting programs ... he's gutted environment - so, i'm guessing health is next ... as we know he won't raise taxes ...

    it is in our best interest to not let Harper have his majority ... plain and simple ... we need to force him to WORK with other parties from the Centre ... it's his unwillingness that is bringing about this election ...

    he says he doesn't have a hidden agenda ... but look at his work on this afghan torture file, human rights commission, CIDA, the environment, etc ... all these independent boards that used to work at arms length because they shouldn't be politicized are now being micro-managed from the PMO with a ideological agenda ... we HAD a reputation around the world for being a JUST society ... not anymore ...
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    fife wrote:
    making in voluntary makes the stats unreliable. it doesn't help anyone

    it's voluntary because the people that most likely will not fill it out are minorities ... or as harper likes to call em' - You People ...
  • fifefife Posts: 3,327
    [

    Thats true but where the hell are the liberals and NDP and bloc in reminding people. where is the media is all this. where is the uproar from the media about how Harper only allows 5 questions which are pre approved by his office. Hell even a junior staff member has talked about this.[/quote]

    The media have bitched about the control Harper exercises since at least 2006. Regardless, the media's job is not to lead but to report, keeping fact and opinion very distinct.[/quote]

    I agree but don't you think the media should be reporting things such as not having the ability to asking our leaders (the people we pay) question about what they are doing or not doing.

    Also, what do you mean that the media job is not to lead but to report?
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    ok ... i know i'm a west of left socialist treehugger that would like a green party gov't ... but i acknowledge the rest of canada is not ready for that ...

    so, despite my despise for the liberals and conservatives ... i think in the interests of Canada - a liberal minority would be the best outcome ... :(
  • byttermanbytterman Posts: 136
    I agree but don't you think the media should be reporting things such as not having the ability to asking our leaders (the people we pay) question about what they are doing or not doing.

    Also, what do you mean that the media job is not to lead but to report?[/quote]

    The media are reporting that story, maybe they aren't giving it the importance you think it merits but it can't be said that it's not in the press.
    To the media leading question: they aren't elected. There are plenty of people who understand the specifics better than me, but an intelligent, critical, and most of all free press is essential for the function of a healthy democracy. By free I mean from government interference (although an interesting argument could be made about free information too...free internet and G&M for all Canadians?). The media must to be able to criticize the government objectively, but in so doing they're holding them accountable on our behalf, not their own. It isn't their job to tell us how to use information, but rather to provide it.
  • byttermanbytterman Posts: 136
    polaris_x wrote:
    ok ... i know i'm a west of left socialist treehugger that would like a green party gov't ... but i acknowledge the rest of canada is not ready for that ...

    so, despite my despise for the liberals and conservatives ... i think in the interests of Canada - a liberal minority would be the best outcome ... :(

    I'm not at all interested in a minority government propped up issue by issue, because we're already in an endless election cycle. What about a co-governance coalition, with Ignatieff as PM (assuming he'd win the most seats) but with Layton and perhaps other NDPers in cabinet, not merely friendly Opposition? I don't think in any of our coalition discussion that sort of thing has come up, but that's how coalitions work in other places. As long as they were fiscally responsible might be worth a crack.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    bytterman wrote:
    I'm not at all interested in a minority government propped up issue by issue, because we're already in an endless election cycle. What about a co-governance coalition, with Ignatieff as PM (assuming he'd win the most seats) but with Layton and perhaps other NDPers in cabinet, not merely friendly Opposition? I don't think in any of our coalition discussion that sort of thing has come up, but that's how coalitions work in other places. As long as they were fiscally responsible might be worth a crack.

    the only reason why our minority gov't isn't working now is because Harper is leaning too far right ... a minority gov't would work best with a liberal pm ... simply because it then doesn't allow them to do whatever the heck they want (we've already seen that outcome) ...

    we would seriously not be in this election cycle if harper moved to the centre ... but he's power hungry ...
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Even though I'm not a supporter of Harper, his government has done plenty to help this region out, his government has remained committed to a new international bridge between Windsor and Detroit, provided infrastructure money for the new billion $$$$ road leading to the bridge, provided a 550 million $$$ loan to Michigan to get the new bridge moving, provided loan money to GM and Chrysler, provided money for ford to re open essex engine plant, this area received some the highest amounts of infrastructure spending. With 2 very busy borders is allowing customs officers to be armed, very good thing. If he gets majority will scrap long gun registry, sits very well with rural folks.

    The federal government provides money for health care through transfer payments, his government has increased transfer payments, the previous liberal government slashed transfer payments, they are the one's with the track record of kicking the provinces in the teeth.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    bytterman wrote:
    I'm not at all interested in a minority government propped up issue by issue, because we're already in an endless election cycle. What about a co-governance coalition, with Ignatieff as PM (assuming he'd win the most seats) but with Layton and perhaps other NDPers in cabinet, not merely friendly Opposition? I don't think in any of our coalition discussion that sort of thing has come up, but that's how coalitions work in other places. As long as they were fiscally responsible might be worth a crack.

    the only reason why our minority gov't isn't working now is because Harper is leaning too far right ... a minority gov't would work best with a liberal pm ... simply because it then doesn't allow them to do whatever the heck they want (we've already seen that outcome) ...

    we would seriously not be in this election cycle if harper moved to the centre ... but he's power hungry ...

    I believe this last parliament and the parliament before that were 2 of the longest serving parliaments.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Even though I'm not a supporter of Harper, his government has done plenty to help this region out, his government has remained committed to a new international bridge between Windsor and Detroit, provided infrastructure money for the new billion $$$$ road leading to the bridge, provided a 550 million $$$ loan to Michigan to get the new bridge moving, provided loan money to GM and Chrysler, provided money for ford to re open essex engine plant, this area received some the highest amounts of infrastructure spending. With 2 very busy borders is allowing customs officers to be armed, very good thing. If he gets majority will scrap long gun registry, sits very well with rural folks.

    The federal government provides money for health care through transfer payments, his government has increased transfer payments, the previous liberal government slashed transfer payments, they are the one's with the track record of kicking the provinces in the teeth.

    how many ridings are in Windsor? ... aren't they held by some NDP members ... you do know that Harper needed the support of the NDP to pass several of their budgets ... these were likely part of the negotiations ...

    i'm not sure what you're talking about in transfer payments ... are you referring to equalization payments or transfers payments for health care ... equalization payments should be calculated in what is fair ... the health transfer payments have been set since 2004 ...
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Even though I'm not a supporter of Harper, his government has done plenty to help this region out, his government has remained committed to a new international bridge between Windsor and Detroit, provided infrastructure money for the new billion $$$$ road leading to the bridge, provided a 550 million $$$ loan to Michigan to get the new bridge moving, provided loan money to GM and Chrysler, provided money for ford to re open essex engine plant, this area received some the highest amounts of infrastructure spending. With 2 very busy borders is allowing customs officers to be armed, very good thing. If he gets majority will scrap long gun registry, sits very well with rural folks.

    The federal government provides money for health care through transfer payments, his government has increased transfer payments, the previous liberal government slashed transfer payments, they are the one's with the track record of kicking the provinces in the teeth.

    how many ridings are in Windsor? ... aren't they held by some NDP members ... you do know that Harper needed the support of the NDP to pass several of their budgets ... these were likely part of the negotiations ...

    i'm not sure what you're talking about in transfer payments ... are you referring to equalization payments or transfers payments for health care ... equalization payments should be calculated in what is fair ... the health transfer payments have been set since 2004 ...

    2 ridings are NDP 1 is conservative. The NDP who represents that area really has not done a whole lot, The conservatives have spent a lot of time on this file, John Baird has been to Lansing, Mi several times trying to get the process moving, this border file was started by the previous liberal government, Harper and McGuinty have done the most to keep the project moving, and despite what people say a new ridge is a must with a new state of the art highway to it. I'm on the Ambassador Bridge several times a month and it only gets repaired when the current owner is ordered to.

    The point is that they have spent considerable time on this file when it could have been easily neglected, and they have been aggressive with Michigan to get them moving and hopefully a vote will be coming in the Michigan legislature sooner than later.

    As far as social programs go, the 2 biggest social programs, the 2 most expensive are health and education so if your not happy with those 2, then you need to take it up with McGuinty, as far as day care goes that should be left up to the provinces as well. I would have no problem with a daycare program for single parents and low income earners, but people making good wages should be paying full cost day care.

    I've always said that Ontario should have lobbied the federal government to take care of it's own EI and CPP, but that'll never happen.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    i was asking about the increase in transfer payments you said Harper as given ... i don't recall this ...
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    i was asking about the increase in transfer payments you said Harper as given ... i don't recall this ...
    Looked like I was wrong on that a quick check showed it was Martin who negotiated increased payments for health, still how nice of him!!! After all it was him and Chretien that cut them in the first place.

    Either way, I don't like any of the three national leaders, nor do I trust any of them. I was ready to support Layton till he went off on his tangent about credit cards, now he wants to double CPP, but says premiums will only rise 2.5%, he needs to prove that.

    Iggy red book of promises which likely was just thrown together in weak.

    Harper's promises that don't take effect till the deficit gets paid off, but those tax breaks don't help me and are really only beneficial to those who don't need the help.

    However I like the TFSA, I like what he's done with the border file here, I like whats happened with cell phone rates by getting more companies, now if he could just get direct tv over here he just might get my vote :wink:
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    like i said ... they all have their issues ... i contend tho that anyone getting a majority would be bad for the country ... especially haper ...
  • byttermanbytterman Posts: 136
    polaris_x wrote:
    The only way he's gonna get rid of the defecit is through gutting programs ... he's gutted environment - so, i'm guessing health is next ... as we know he won't raise taxes ...

    Sorry but I missed this before and it begs a question. Is there any actual evidence that health is a target?
    polaris_x wrote:
    it is in our best interest to not let Harper have his majority ... plain and simple ... we need to force him to WORK with other parties from the Centre ... it's his unwillingness that is bringing about this election ...

    he says he doesn't have a hidden agenda ... but look at his work on this afghan torture file, human rights commission, CIDA, the environment, etc ... all these independent boards that used to work at arms length because they shouldn't be politicized are now being micro-managed from the PMO with a ideological agenda ... we HAD a reputation around the world for being a JUST society ... not anymore ...

    You list plenty of very good reasons to dislike Harper, but I think that your first point is a bit short of the mark. He's passed five budgets as a minority PM, so how again are we having an election because he's unwilling to work with the others? This time Ignatieff stated he'd vote against a document that he hadn't seen (which also suggests power-hunger), Layton stated he'd take a day to study it (and didn't), and Duceppe's calling the usual Quebec-got-screwed thing.
    I can't/won't comment on our international reputation, except to note that the American's still think that we're a bunch of dope-smoking, health-care loving pinkos (to oversimplify the case of course). There are still hundreds of thousands of people moving here annually; maybe we're not what we'd like to be at the moment, but an awful lot of people think that it looks pretty good.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    bytterman wrote:
    Sorry but I missed this before and it begs a question. Is there any actual evidence that health is a target?

    he wants to privatize ... the best way to privatize is to make the public system dysfunctional ... which means underfunding the program ...
    bytterman wrote:
    You list plenty of very good reasons to dislike Harper, but I think that your first point is a bit short of the mark. He's passed five budgets as a minority PM, so how again are we having an election because he's unwilling to work with the others? This time Ignatieff stated he'd vote against a document that he hadn't seen (which also suggests power-hunger), Layton stated he'd take a day to study it (and didn't), and Duceppe's calling the usual Quebec-got-screwed thing.
    I can't/won't comment on our international reputation, except to note that the American's still think that we're a bunch of dope-smoking, health-care loving pinkos (to oversimplify the case of course). There are still hundreds of thousands of people moving here annually; maybe we're not what we'd like to be at the moment, but an awful lot of people think that it looks pretty good.

    yes ... he's passed budgets ... through abstaining votes (mainly the liberals were not prepared to enter into an election) so rather than vote against it ... they abstained ... also, in the early going ... he made concessions to the NDP mainly on the climate portfolio which he promptly destroyed by having it killed in the senate (first time ever) ... he set up this election because the polling numbers were good and he wants his majority ... where he can do what he really wants to do ..

    we've sabotaged the climate agenda in international conferences ... look at our voting record in the UN ... hard to detail it all ... you just have to follow that file ...
  • byttermanbytterman Posts: 136
    polaris_x wrote:
    bytterman wrote:
    Sorry but I missed this before and it begs a question. Is there any actual evidence that health is a target?

    he wants to privatize ... the best way to privatize is to make the public system dysfunctional ... which means underfunding the program ...

    Ideologically I think that he'd prefer a mix of private/public, but regardless he knows damn well that complete privatization will make him a one-term PM. The overwhelming majority of us would toss his ass right out at first opportunity (4 years to the day after they're sworn in I think ;)). He must know this, and he is power hungry as you say, and so it won't happen because he wants the top job. A blend of funding for health I can see in time, but a complete US-style system has a snowballs chance in Vancouver because the electorate doesn't want it.
    bytterman wrote:
    You list plenty of very good reasons to dislike Harper, but I think that your first point is a bit short of the mark. He's passed five budgets as a minority PM, so how again are we having an election because he's unwilling to work with the others? This time Ignatieff stated he'd vote against a document that he hadn't seen (which also suggests power-hunger), Layton stated he'd take a day to study it (and didn't), and Duceppe's calling the usual Quebec-got-screwed thing.
    I can't/won't comment on our international reputation, except to note that the American's still think that we're a bunch of dope-smoking, health-care loving pinkos (to oversimplify the case of course). There are still hundreds of thousands of people moving here annually; maybe we're not what we'd like to be at the moment, but an awful lot of people think that it looks pretty good.
    polaris_x wrote:
    yes ... he's passed budgets ... through abstaining votes (mainly the liberals were not prepared to enter into an election) so rather than vote against it ... they abstained ... also, in the early going ... he made concessions to the NDP mainly on the climate portfolio which he promptly destroyed by having it killed in the senate (first time ever) ... he set up this election because the polling numbers were good and he wants his majority ... where he can do what he really wants to do ..

    we've sabotaged the climate agenda in international conferences ... look at our voting record in the UN ... hard to detail it all ... you just have to follow that file ...

    He certainly likes his present polling numbers, but if Ignatieff and Layton thought that he'd get his majority this time they could have prevented it easily. I'm reasonably on top of the climate file and on that topic he's a disgrace, but we're hardly the only climate-negligent country at the UN.
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