Um, Are We About To Be In A Third War?

Flagg

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

BinauralJam wrote:

boyo79 wrote:

The bottom line is the US, UK and France are only interested in Libya because of the oil. They aren't interested in protecting the civilians. They've already started dropping bombs just ONE DAY after getting this No Fly Zone in place. The US, UK & France have engineered this so they could drop bombs. They've probably helped the rebels attack Gaddafi's troops knowing he'd retaliate. And then they get the OK to attack.

Don't get me wrong, Gaddafi shouldn't be in power but the US & the UK have no business in this. What they are doing is nothing short of legalised terrorism. Its Iraq all over again.

This!

this is essentially what putin is saying as well. he said the west is in "a medieval crusade against khadaffi".

if putin was so against this, then why did russia not veto the un resolution when they had the chance???????

Because then they get to say "Hey! We didn't approve this! We denounce any and all aggression from the West. Now please ignore us as we do what we want in Georgia and Chechnya."

Flagg

lukin2006 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I agree, great debate going on...just shows that people can be on opposite ends of a debate and behave responsibly.

Has the the UN/West stated it's objectives. From what I understand it is to stop the violence, or is it to remove leadership? If they plan on removing leadership then that may require boots on the ground.

the way i read it the main objective is to stop the violence and weaken his abilities to inflict mass violence and casualties on the rebels. as of last night the goal was "not necessarily to remove ghadaffi from power", and gates said that he could still end up holding on to power when all is said and done. but in my honest opinion is that after this coalition getting involved i do not see how they can allow him to stay in power. his people will never respect him and will never forgive him for what he has done by trying to quell the uprising. the rebel forces have proven that they are not strong enough to oust him and that they were days from being defeated. hell, what is going to happen to those rebel leaders if khadaffi stays in power? they will be tried or tortured or killed for their acts of treason. if they are interested in saving lives khadaffi has to go. if he stays we will have the same situation as when we left saddam in power after desert storm. and to remove him boots will need to be on the ground, and it will be a lengthy war, just like in iraq and afghanistan. stupid decision to get involved in this mess. very stupid decision....

Once we put boots on the ground, any support from the arab world will quickly turn against the west. Originally the people of Iraq and Afghanistan seemed happy that US/West got involved, not so much now.

Support would dry up here too, as it should if that happens.

gimmesometruth27

i like what you said about the media. these are the same asshats that did not hold the last administration accountable in the buildup to those wars. some of them were cheerleaders back then and are cheerleaders now. the media is not doing it's job. i want all of these hacks in talk radio who blame "the librul media bias" to acknowldege that if the media were in fact "liberal" then they would have been kicking and screaming against this. the fact is war sells papers and encourages clicking of links on websites....

and does anyone ever notice that when we are "helping" people things like hospitals always get hit? so much for precision strikes...

Drowned Out wrote:

I find the willingness of the public to support military intervention fascinating.
Why?
Because the media says the Libyan people want/need our help?
Would that be the same media who fed us the government line about WMD's in Iraq?....

Seriously....I'm betting pretty much no one participating in this thread knew sweet FA about Libya before this all started....and now you're willing to support bombing a sovereign country based on a couple hours of watching CNN????

65 civilians were killed the first day of bombing. Health and education facilities destroyed. Way to help.

boyo79

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

and does anyone ever notice that when we are "helping" people things like hospitals always get hit? so much for precision strikes...

I'm just waiting to hear news of a Libyan (spelling?) hospital to be hit by one of these precision missiles.

brandon10

Drowned Out wrote:

I don’t pretend to know enough about Libya to offer an opinion on resolving the situation, but I have been reading a lot about this for weeks, and have noticed a lot of information that has not been shared in this thread.

- Libya was the highest ranking country on the Human Development Index in Africa (based on life expectancy, education, living situation etc)…it also has the highest per-capita income in Africa, largely due to the fact that they distributed nationalized oil revenues amongst the people. Ghadaffi is as much a monster as any other head of state, but he only stands out among the monsters because of the spotlight shone upon him.

- this is NOT anything like the uprising in Egypt. This is an armed coup, orchestrated by rebels with alleged Western intelligence backing. Some posit that these Western intelligence agencies were on the ground before the insurrection started.

- To say that this is not about Oil because of the small quantity physically imported to the US is a major oversight. Libyan oil is nationalized – NOC controls over 50%. We all know privatization of resources is a windfall for private corps. Currently, foreign companies explore NOC land at their own expense for five years, and win land leases by giving the biggest cut of profit to NOC. You know this has to drive neo-libs crazy. Libyan oil is cheap cheap cheap….light crude, very little refining necessary – estimated production cost of $1/barrel….43 billion barells of proven reserves, yet only 30% of Libya has been explored for hydrocarbons. 85% of Libyan oil is exported to Europe. The majority of foreign investment in Libya comes from Euro firms. If things continue to escalate, Libya will be paying Western (US) firms to rebuild their country, with loans from US-controlled international banks. This weakens the Euro influence in the area, and essentially locks China and Russia out of access to Libya’s resources. Another thing to consider – Libya is an important pawn on ‘the Grand Chessboard’. It is directly adjacent to a few resource-rich countries, and has a vast network of pipelines available to transport oil and gas from these countries to the Mediterranean and beyond.

- The Arab League support trumpeted in the media is not nearly as unanimous as it’s being made out to be. Of 22 member states, only 11 voted on the no-fly zone, and 2 were against it (Syria, Algeria). The African Union (representing 53 African countries), firmly denounced it.

- Yes, there are parallels to Yugoslavia….however, do the people making these comparisons understand the role of the West in lead-up to that conflict? And how the NATO bombing was actually a precursor to the bulk of the atrocities in the region?

It's just too bad more of the public will never research like this. They just eat up the spoon fed lies from the media.

boyo79

brandon10 wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

I don’t pretend to know enough about Libya to offer an opinion on resolving the situation, but I have been reading a lot about this for weeks, and have noticed a lot of information that has not been shared in this thread.

- Libya was the highest ranking country on the Human Development Index in Africa (based on life expectancy, education, living situation etc)…it also has the highest per-capita income in Africa, largely due to the fact that they distributed nationalized oil revenues amongst the people. Ghadaffi is as much a monster as any other head of state, but he only stands out among the monsters because of the spotlight shone upon him.

- this is NOT anything like the uprising in Egypt. This is an armed coup, orchestrated by rebels with alleged Western intelligence backing. Some posit that these Western intelligence agencies were on the ground before the insurrection started.

- To say that this is not about Oil because of the small quantity physically imported to the US is a major oversight. Libyan oil is nationalized – NOC controls over 50%. We all know privatization of resources is a windfall for private corps. Currently, foreign companies explore NOC land at their own expense for five years, and win land leases by giving the biggest cut of profit to NOC. You know this has to drive neo-libs crazy. Libyan oil is cheap cheap cheap….light crude, very little refining necessary – estimated production cost of $1/barrel….43 billion barells of proven reserves, yet only 30% of Libya has been explored for hydrocarbons. 85% of Libyan oil is exported to Europe. The majority of foreign investment in Libya comes from Euro firms. If things continue to escalate, Libya will be paying Western (US) firms to rebuild their country, with loans from US-controlled international banks. This weakens the Euro influence in the area, and essentially locks China and Russia out of access to Libya’s resources. Another thing to consider – Libya is an important pawn on ‘the Grand Chessboard’. It is directly adjacent to a few resource-rich countries, and has a vast network of pipelines available to transport oil and gas from these countries to the Mediterranean and beyond.

- The Arab League support trumpeted in the media is not nearly as unanimous as it’s being made out to be. Of 22 member states, only 11 voted on the no-fly zone, and 2 were against it (Syria, Algeria). The African Union (representing 53 African countries), firmly denounced it.

- Yes, there are parallels to Yugoslavia….however, do the people making these comparisons understand the role of the West in lead-up to that conflict? And how the NATO bombing was actually a precursor to the bulk of the atrocities in the region?

It's just too bad more of the public will never research like this. They just eat up the spoon fed lies from the media.

I agree. The thing is, alot of people are more interested in the world of celebrity than current affairs. Its a sad state of affairs.

whygohome

boyo79 wrote:

brandon10 wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

I don’t pretend to know enough about Libya to offer an opinion on resolving the situation, but I have been reading a lot about this for weeks, and have noticed a lot of information that has not been shared in this thread.

- Libya was the highest ranking country on the Human Development Index in Africa (based on life expectancy, education, living situation etc)…it also has the highest per-capita income in Africa, largely due to the fact that they distributed nationalized oil revenues amongst the people. Ghadaffi is as much a monster as any other head of state, but he only stands out among the monsters because of the spotlight shone upon him.

- this is NOT anything like the uprising in Egypt. This is an armed coup, orchestrated by rebels with alleged Western intelligence backing. Some posit that these Western intelligence agencies were on the ground before the insurrection started.

- To say that this is not about Oil because of the small quantity physically imported to the US is a major oversight. Libyan oil is nationalized – NOC controls over 50%. We all know privatization of resources is a windfall for private corps. Currently, foreign companies explore NOC land at their own expense for five years, and win land leases by giving the biggest cut of profit to NOC. You know this has to drive neo-libs crazy. Libyan oil is cheap cheap cheap….light crude, very little refining necessary – estimated production cost of $1/barrel….43 billion barells of proven reserves, yet only 30% of Libya has been explored for hydrocarbons. 85% of Libyan oil is exported to Europe. The majority of foreign investment in Libya comes from Euro firms. If things continue to escalate, Libya will be paying Western (US) firms to rebuild their country, with loans from US-controlled international banks. This weakens the Euro influence in the area, and essentially locks China and Russia out of access to Libya’s resources. Another thing to consider – Libya is an important pawn on ‘the Grand Chessboard’. It is directly adjacent to a few resource-rich countries, and has a vast network of pipelines available to transport oil and gas from these countries to the Mediterranean and beyond.

- The Arab League support trumpeted in the media is not nearly as unanimous as it’s being made out to be. Of 22 member states, only 11 voted on the no-fly zone, and 2 were against it (Syria, Algeria). The African Union (representing 53 African countries), firmly denounced it.

- Yes, there are parallels to Yugoslavia….however, do the people making these comparisons understand the role of the West in lead-up to that conflict? And how the NATO bombing was actually a precursor to the bulk of the atrocities in the region?

It's just too bad more of the public will never research like this. They just eat up the spoon fed lies from the media.

I agree. The thing is, alot of people are more interested in the world of celebrity than current affairs. Its a sad state of affairs.

Libya? Is that where Charlie Sheen lives now? If not, then I don't care.