Religious Beliefs

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  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited April 2011
    Paul David wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    It seems to me many atheists do not believe in God because of religion...
    both you and redrock are highly versed in the Bible and religion.
    whoa. no way. I had no issues with religion or the churck back when I chose to reject the idea of a supreme creator....... I personally completely seperate the belief in god and religion..... .

    I agree that these two are two different things albeit linked in a way - the 'good books', which are the 'reference' for god(s) (just like King Arthur was made known by Geoffrey of Monmouth's writings) are also a basis for organised worship. But anyone can project whatever 'qualities' they wish for their god depending on the need/void that needs to be filled at the time, anything/any entity can be a god, disregarding the writings. I guess this entity is named 'God' because that's how one understands it needs to be referenced as (a throwback from the good books??? ;) ) but really, 'god' can be any deified immaterial entity, person or even object - it's just what one makes of it. :mrgreen:

    Generally, atheists don't confuse religion and god and have no problem 'believing' in religion, whether one accepts it or not - one is concrete, man made another is supposedly transcendent. Religion is 'nothing', just the organised worship and rules/regulations of man. Then again, any set of beliefs can be called 'religion', so maybe believing in a force that can produce miracles and at the same time believing in an afterlife is, theoretically, a religion! Theists believe in a god/gods (usually one who interacts with humans via 'miracles', etc.) but not necessarily a creator god; deists believe in a god which doesn't interact with humans but is 'the' creator; this atheist believes love and other 'god like' projections come from within - nothing 'godly', just from within, not via a god (or by proxy of a god). Maybe I can then say I am god, though that would be quite presumptuous.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    catefrances wrote:
    ....but you dont much read the bible.. but tbhis is where his word is supposedly written. so where do you get your faith from if not from the word of God? ...
    pandora wrote:
    You say religion is the word of God. The people who are religious feel this. I'm not religious ...
    I don't feel this.
    CF said the bible /the 'good book', represents the word of god, not religion (and by religion I mean organised worship/religion as this is what most will understand by religion). A big difference.

    I'm with you here CF, as I said before the bible (for christian type beliefs - other 'good books' for other types of beliefs) is where god is referenced, where his 'attributes' are mentioned and praised, where he is made known, where he 'speaks' to humans. If the 'good books' hadn't been put together, would we 'know' how god is (ie all benevolent, etc.), would we know of so called 'miracles' and would we be able to 'transpose' them to meet our needs? Would we then be able to 'visualise' god as we do? I'm thinking not.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    ....but you dont much read the bible.. but tbhis is where his word is supposedly written. so where do you get your faith from if not from the word of God? ...
    pandora wrote:
    You say religion is the word of God. The people who are religious feel this. I'm not religious ...
    I don't feel this.
    CF said the bible /the 'good book', represents the word of god, not religion (and by religion I mean organised worship/religion as this is what most will understand by religion). A big difference.

    I'm with you here CF, as I said before the bible (for christian type beliefs - other 'good books' for other types of beliefs) is where god is referenced, where his 'attributes' are mentioned and praised, where he is made known, where he 'speaks' to humans. If the 'good books' hadn't been put together, would we 'know' how god is (ie all benevolent, etc.), would we know of so called 'miracles' and would we be able to 'transpose' them to meet our needs? Would we then be able to 'visualise' god as we do? I'm thinking not.


    Would I and do I know God without the good books? ...yes

    if there were no churches or religion would I still know God?....yes

    would I know miracles? ...yes

    this is my faith, it comes from my experiences on my path in life.
    God shows himself and speaks to me daily.
    He is there .....one just needs to let Him into their life and heart.

    Can I prove he is there... No

    Can you prove he is not...I don't think so
    you can only say He is not with you and therefore you think He does not exist.

    This is illogical though...
    because someone has not learned something yet does not mean it is does not exist.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Paul David wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    That is a bit rude to say I speak in circles..it is how you are perceiving me. I've been very clear.

    honestly Pandora, I wouldn't necessarily say you've been speaking in circles, but you do sound very vague most of the time. kind of like talking to a philosopher. it has been very difficult to discern your actual stance on many points beyond the fact that you believe in God and don't subscribe to any particular religion.

    pandora wrote:
    It seems to me many atheists do not believe in God because of religion...
    both you and redrock are highly versed in the Bible and religion.

    whoa. no way. I had no issues with religion or the churck back when I chose to reject the idea of a supreme creator. most people, when they come to realize their disbelief or personal questioning of their faith, are not aware enough of the atrocities the church has committed. we find that out later.

    I personally completely seperate the belief in god and religion. For me, the idea of a loving god and father is fabulous. I think most religions don't have a fucking clue what god is, if he exists. Humans, as a completely moronic species, wouldn't be able to comprehend what god is.

    religion can be beautiful, but it can be argued it is responsible for all the ills of the world. especially now.
    I did say many atheists not all.

    Perhaps one day you will allow God back into your life...perhaps you will have a want or a need.

    I separate God from religion and I do not say religions are bad because of some bad apples within

    that would be kind of like saying a sports team is bad cause their fans riot ... but I try to refrain from most analogies cause it's really hard to find a decent one and that really wasn't :lol:

    I do like my PJ reference though....
    Faith of any kind is kind of like loving PJ music... we know its great and want to share it with the world
    but not everyone will appreciate it... we think their loss but to each their own.

    My own is God.... that is all.
    oh and of course PJ :D
  • ShimmyMommy
    ShimmyMommy Posts: 7,505
    The thing is, people think religion is spirituality. When in fact, religion is a method to discover spirituality. Spirituality is the discovery that we are all are an integral part in the fabric of humanity. Learning this, in turn, endows us with the awareness of our responsibility to each other in this Life.

    Once a person learns how to be on a spiritual path, they can choose to blend religion with it, by remaining closely tied to their religion, deviate completely from it, or make a variation involving the two. Each person has his/her own path they must decide to follow. The responsibility of it all is to respect every path of humanity.

    That being said, I am fully aware of the fundamentalists in every religion. I feel that instead of blending spirituality with religion, they have chosen that the religion is the only path. By basing every action on the literal interpretation of the religion, they are ignoring their personal spiritual responsibility, which is a harmful action to humanity as a whole. If we look closely at recent years, we have seen this circumvention of spiritual responsibility in not only religion, but politics and finance also. Which has brought sadness and destruction in ways we could not imagine. It is heartbreaking. I will stop here, as those are matters for another thread altogether.

    I apologize profusely for taking this thread off topic. :oops:
    Lots of love, light and hugs to you all!
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    ShimmyMommy wrote:
    . By basing every action on the literal interpretation of the religion, they are ignoring their personal spiritual responsibility, which is a harmful action to humanity as a whole.
    This is one of the best and most meaningful statements I have read in this thread.
  • ShimmyMommy
    ShimmyMommy Posts: 7,505
    EmBleve wrote:
    ShimmyMommy wrote:
    . By basing every action on the literal interpretation of the religion, they are ignoring their personal spiritual responsibility, which is a harmful action to humanity as a whole.
    This is one of the best and most meaningful statements I have read in this thread.

    Thank you. :D
    Lots of love, light and hugs to you all!
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    ShimmyMommy wrote:

    Thank you. :D
    You're welcome. :D I think that 'literal interpretation' are very powerful words in this context, and it is a thing that, to me, creates some major problems.
  • whygohome
    whygohome Posts: 2,305
    Is this thread still going? I thought it was dead for 3 days; I guess it rose from the grave. A miracle! (and not fiction at all)

    :mrgreen: :twisted:
  • ShimmyMommy
    ShimmyMommy Posts: 7,505
    EmBleve wrote:
    ShimmyMommy wrote:

    Thank you. :D
    You're welcome. :D I think that 'literal interpretation' are very powerful words in this context, and it is a thing that, to me, creates some major problems.

    I agree. See, you gotta give yourself more credit! ;)
    Lots of love, light and hugs to you all!
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    ShimmyMommy wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    ShimmyMommy wrote:

    Thank you. :D
    You're welcome. :D I think that 'literal interpretation' are very powerful words in this context, and it is a thing that, to me, creates some major problems.

    I agree. See, you gotta give yourself more credit! ;)
    aw. :)
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    In another thread I have very much enjoyed a few people who have taken
    their Bible stories literally.

    I enjoy hearing them...I repect the intensity of their Faith... I admire their courage and discipline.

    A wise man once said....

    "If there is anything that links the human to the divine, it is the courage to stand by a principle when everybody else rejects it."
    — Abraham Lincoln


    Personally, I am very happy there are people here
    willing to share their religious beliefs with those who can appreciate them :D
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    pandora wrote:
    In another thread I have very much enjoyed a few people who have taken
    their Bible stories literally.

    I enjoy hearing them...I repect the intensity of their Faith... I admire their courage and discipline.

    A wise man once said....

    "If there is anything that links the human to the divine, it is the courage to stand by a principle when everybody else rejects it."
    — Abraham Lincoln


    Personally, I am very happy there are people here
    willing to share their religious beliefs with those who can appreciate them :D
    I agree with being happy that there are people willing to share their beliefs and stand by their principles. I just think that the literal interpretation of some things lead to problems and close-mindedness, tunnel vision, and it can lead to a lack of insight insofar as the potential spiritualistic symbolism.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    EmBleve wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    In another thread I have very much enjoyed a few people who have taken
    their Bible stories literally.

    I enjoy hearing them...I repect the intensity of their Faith... I admire their courage and discipline.

    A wise man once said....

    "If there is anything that links the human to the divine, it is the courage to stand by a principle when everybody else rejects it."
    — Abraham Lincoln


    Personally, I am very happy there are people here
    willing to share their religious beliefs with those who can appreciate them :D
    I agree with being happy that there are people willing to share their beliefs and stand by their principles. I just think that the literal interpretation of some things lead to problems and close-mindedness, tunnel vision, and it can lead to a lack of insight insofar as the potential spiritualistic symbolism.
    My feeling is...
    it is not my place to judge others on their path.
    To conclude a lack of insight or close-mindedness or tunnel vision.
    We are all intertwined and provide revelation for each other through our daily contact...
    that is my belief.

    Some of the most creative, big hearted people here could be called, at one time or another,
    one of those words you used on any particular subject.

    I choose to see the good and take the good.
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    pandora wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    In another thread I have very much enjoyed a few people who have taken
    their Bible stories literally.

    I enjoy hearing them...I repect the intensity of their Faith... I admire their courage and discipline.

    A wise man once said....

    "If there is anything that links the human to the divine, it is the courage to stand by a principle when everybody else rejects it."
    — Abraham Lincoln


    Personally, I am very happy there are people here
    willing to share their religious beliefs with those who can appreciate them :D
    I agree with being happy that there are people willing to share their beliefs and stand by their principles. I just think that the literal interpretation of some things lead to problems and close-mindedness, tunnel vision, and it can lead to a lack of insight insofar as the potential spiritualistic symbolism.
    My feeling is...
    it is not my place to judge others on their path.
    To conclude a lack of insight or close-mindedness or tunnel vision.
    We are all intertwined and provide revelation for each other through our daily contact...
    that is my belief.

    Some of the most creative, big hearted people here could be called, at one time or another,
    one of those words you used on any particular subject.

    I choose to see the good and take the good.
    I was not judging anyone, Pandora. I was speaking to the concept of literal interpretation. If you would read my post again, I said nothing about individuals. And it can lead to problems, like it or not. I have been judged in the past by 'christians' for NOT taking things in a literal sense, and 'told' how I 'should' be interpreting it, which to me is hypocrisy personified. And, yes, in that situation, I certainly do see that as tunnel vision and judgment calls.
  • ShimmyMommy
    ShimmyMommy Posts: 7,505
    OK, I see again there has been a miscommunication.

    Whether we like it or not, we are linked together as threads in this fabric of Life. I feel it is wonderful if someone can see the parallels of their own journey with a story from religious text. They are using religion as a meter to judge their own spirituality. Mother Theresa is a testimony to that.

    When I was speaking of "fundamentalists and literal translation"...I was referring to the ones who decide through their own literal translation of religious text that it is their mission to punish others. They are using religion as a meter stick to judge another's spirituality. That is harmful. 9/11 is a testimony to that. There, I said it.

    It's like saying someone else is a bigger PJ fan than me, because they have seen more concerts, have more boots, more photos, more albums. It is implying that I have no value in the fan base. In fact, any way you slice it, we are all fans...regardless of our amount of proof.

    BTW, no one said that to me....it was just an example.
    Lots of love, light and hugs to you all!
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    ShimmyMommy wrote:
    When I was speaking of "fundamentalists and literal translation"...I was referring to the ones who decide through their own literal translation of religious text that it is their mission to punish others.
    This is how I took it.
  • ShimmyMommy
    ShimmyMommy Posts: 7,505
    EmBleve wrote:
    ShimmyMommy wrote:
    When I was speaking of "fundamentalists and literal translation"...I was referring to the ones who decide through their own literal translation of religious text that it is their mission to punish others.
    This is how I took it.

    I thought so. It's all good in da hood. ;)
    Lots of love, light and hugs to you all!
  • EmBleve
    EmBleve Posts: 3,019
    word.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    ShimmyMommy wrote:
    ....I was referring to the ones who decide through their own literal translation of religious text that it is their mission to punish others..

    Using literal translation not just to punish ShimmyMommy but maybe, acting in 'good faith', to do a lot of damage in everyday life. What Embleve added when it comes to tunnel vision, judgement and closed mindedness is very relevant - in all religions where there is reward and punishment. Bible taken 'literally', Koran taken 'literally', etc. in the 'do's and don'ts'. It's obvious in the world around us... against gays, contraception, 'forced' marriage (eg a recent case discussed on this forum) - these are only a few examples. I'm not even talking about atrocities committed in the name of god or religion, historically or in our lifetime. There are so many passages in, for example, both 'books' I mentioned that extremists will pick up on and follow to the letter that it's scary.

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