Religious Beliefs

ShimmyMommy

WOW! Pandora, thank you so much for posting that. It made my day. HUGS to you, too.

Thoughts_Arrive

I practice Orthodox Atheism.

EmBleve

Flutter Girl wrote:

There is no proof, scientific, or otherwise, of how everything came into existence. I love science and know evolution is what formed us. I'm talking about the very very beginning. Perhaps even before the universe formed. Something still heavily debated by scientists.

Until we know how existence, itself, came into being, then absolutely noone can say for fact that there is no God. Who are any of us to tell someone else what they believe is wrong? Or to mock it, as a couple people did my beliefs on this thread?
All it does is lead to tearing each other down.

I agree. And, for the record, I think that what you posted about your beliefs was very interesting. And, Pandora, that 'Mother' posting was really nice and touching.

pandora

Leave it to Erma! a lovely combo of humor and heart

newy777

If you spend a little time researching the scientific knowledge out there you will certainly lean toward being atheist. I certainly respect everyone having their own belief´s but i am strongly against the role government plays in religion .eg. religious schools, taxpayer money used to fund religious initiatives.

As an atheist with an interest in science i feel i appreciate life immensely. Death to me is ok.I understand the atoms making my body up at this very instant will be a total knew set of atoms in roughly 15 yrs. We are just star dust made from elements created in supernova explosions. Now that´s amazing to think about! When we die we will return to the earth. We know how old the earth is approx. 4.5 billion yrs. The observable universe 13.7 billion yrs- We also know there are roughly 200,000,000,000 stars like our sun just in the Milky Way Galaxy and there are about 150 billion observable galaxies all with roughly the same amount of stars as the Milky Way in it.

I think this is a brilliant quote allowing one to feel lucky they were given a chance at life.

We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.

Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow

Mariamaniatis

A good thread. Lots of atheism in the house and that's a good thing. It shows that were evolving. I was born a Catholic and raised Jewish. I have no use for any of it. But it is undeniably a part of the human experience and has been for as long as we have recorded history and even before we had recorded history as we know it. I think it's fascinating that religion evolved almost organically wherever human civilization can be found. I don't know that's evidence in and of itself that there is a god or gods. But why is it that you can cite few examples of a civilization that didn't worship something....? Is it in our genes?

I think our current major religions all need a good re-write. I like the Old Testament for its stories that I never found to be capable of being fact. The New Testament, to me, has absolutely zero basis in historical fact. But Christians believe we should just have faith. Christianity rose up not from the death of Jesus but from the rise of a Roman Emperor Constantine who used the Christian faith which was then in its infancy to keep his empire unified. The stories that are now known as the New Testament weren't actually compiled until at least 3 centuries after the year we believe to be his death.

I don't know enough about Islam or the Koran. But I do know that until recently Islam had far less blood on its hands that Christianity and it aint even close. And until this Century Islam was in fact far more tolerant than Christianity which has a horrific history.

As far as Judaism is concerned I have my problems with that religion too. While there is not a history of mass murder, there is still a sect of Judaism that is just as intolerant as any other religion. So the bottom line is that I don't see how our current major religions have done anything more than give reason to keep us from evolving and continue to keep us separate.

But I still have an open mind. There is plenty of evidence of God. I just don't find that evidence in any of the world's religious books which are all frankly crocks of shit. The organization of the universe suggests intelligent life and a design. And I do find it difficult to believe that life forms as brilliant and intricate as ours can rise from dust. Our bodies are incredibly complex and intricate machines with genetic codes. Codes don't rise from dust.

So I believe that there has to be higher intelligence that possibly did have a hand in creating life. But, I deplore our major religions. It's time for a re-write.

wolfamongwolves

Flutter Girl wrote:

There is no proof, scientific, or otherwise, of how everything came into existence. I love science and know evolution is what formed us. I'm talking about the very very beginning. Perhaps even before the universe formed. Something still heavily debated by scientists.

Until we know how existence, itself, came into being, then absolutely noone can say for fact that there is no God. Who are any of us to tell someone else what they believe is wrong? Or to mock it, as a couple people did my beliefs on this thread?
All it does is lead to tearing each other down.

I agree with everything in this post. At the same time, by the very same token as you say "no one can say for a fact that there is no God", neither can anyone say for a fact that there is a god. And it seems logical to me (though this is not the case in practice) that the burden of proof should lie with those who postulate that there is a God. The reason for this being that, though there may be no proof either way, there is a vast and ever-increasing pool of mutually reinforcing evidence that suggests more and more that God is unnecessary, and next to no objective evidence that he exists. For that reason, I also agree with newy777's post. To me, it makes far more sense to say "We don't know the answer yet, so let's keep looking and learning" than it does to say "We don't know the answer, so let's make one up. Let's just say, 'God did it'."

I also agree with a lot of what Mariamaniatis says, until we get to this:

Mariamaniatis wrote:

There is plenty of evidence of God...The organization of the universe suggests intelligent life and a design. And I do find it difficult to believe that life forms as brilliant and intricate as ours can rise from dust. Our bodies are incredibly complex and intricate machines with genetic codes. Codes don't rise from dust.

So I believe that there has to be higher intelligence that possibly did have a hand in creating life.

This is essentially the "argument from design". I know there's a lot of support for this, particularly among conservative American Christians, but it is an argument that was effectively debunked by David Hume over 200 years ago. Even Christian theologists will tell you that it is a wholly inadequate argument for the existence of God, in a large part because it simply begs the question of "who designed the designer?"

Cut to the modern day (yesterday, in fact http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven?INTCMP=SRCH), and scientists more intelligent and knowledgeable than any of us here tell us that it is perfectly feasible that complex, intricate and living machines could indeed develop from a combination of chance and time.

It may be an uncomfortable realisation for us to accept when we are so conditioned to think of a great and beneficient mystical creator, but that doesn't make it any less the case. I myself had a hard time accepting it myself when I started realising that my belief God and religion left me with more questions than answers. But the more I think about it, the more I feel that the absence of such a creator doesn't make life, the universe and everything any less wonderful and beautiful and awe-inspiring. It may even make it more so.

Byrnzie

If there's a God, then why did he/it create Mosquito's?

catefrances

Mariamaniatis wrote:

...
But I still have an open mind. There is plenty of evidence of God...

the only evidence of God is peoples faith.. and thats hardly rock solid evidence of his existence now is it??

pandora

One night a man was crying Allah! Allah!
His lips grew sweet with praising,
until a cynic said, “So!
I’ve heard you calling out, but have you ever
gotten any response?”

The man had no answer to that.
He quit praying and fell into a confused sleep.
He dreamed he saw Khidr, the guide of souls,
in a thick, green foliage.

“Why did you stop praising?”

“Because
I’ve never heard anything back.”

“This longing you express
is the return message.”

The grief you cry out from
draws you toward union.

Your pure sadness
that wants help
is the secret cup.

Listen to the moan of a dog for its master.
That whining is the connection.

There are love dogs
no one knows the names of.

Give your life
to be one of them.

Rumi

Mariamaniatis

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Flutter Girl wrote:

There is no proof, scientific, or otherwise, of how everything came into existence. I love science and know evolution is what formed us. I'm talking about the very very beginning. Perhaps even before the universe formed. Something still heavily debated by scientists.

Until we know how existence, itself, came into being, then absolutely noone can say for fact that there is no God. Who are any of us to tell someone else what they believe is wrong? Or to mock it, as a couple people did my beliefs on this thread?
All it does is lead to tearing each other down.

I agree with everything in this post. At the same time, by the very same token as you say "no one can say for a fact that there is no God", neither can anyone say for a fact that there is a god. And it seems logical to me (though this is not the case in practice) that the burden of proof should lie with those who postulate that there is a God. The reason for this being that, though there may be no proof either way, there is a vast and ever-increasing pool of mutually reinforcing evidence that suggests more and more that God is unnecessary, and next to no objective evidence that he exists. For that reason, I also agree with newy777's post. To me, it makes far more sense to say "We don't know the answer yet, so let's keep looking and learning" than it does to say "We don't know the answer, so let's make one up. Let's just say, 'God did it'."

I also agree with a lot of what Mariamaniatis says, until we get to this:

Mariamaniatis wrote:

There is plenty of evidence of God...The organization of the universe suggests intelligent life and a design. And I do find it difficult to believe that life forms as brilliant and intricate as ours can rise from dust. Our bodies are incredibly complex and intricate machines with genetic codes. Codes don't rise from dust.

So I believe that there has to be higher intelligence that possibly did have a hand in creating life.

This is essentially the "argument from design". I know there's a lot of support for this, particularly among conservative American Christians, but it is an argument that was effectively debunked by David Hume over 200 years ago. Even Christian theologists will tell you that it is a wholly inadequate argument for the existence of God, in a large part because it simply begs the question of "who designed the designer?"

Cut to the modern day (yesterday, in fact http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven?INTCMP=SRCH), and scientists more intelligent and knowledgeable than any of us here tell us that it is perfectly feasible that complex, intricate and living machines could indeed develop from a combination of chance and time.

It may be an uncomfortable realisation for us to accept when we are so conditioned to think of a great and beneficient mystical creator, but that doesn't make it any less the case. I myself had a hard time accepting it myself when I started realising that my belief God and religion left me with more questions than answers. But the more I think about it, the more I feel that the absence of such a creator doesn't make life, the universe and everything any less wonderful and beautiful and awe-inspiring. It may even make it more so.

And Science has never been wrong?

newy777

The comments about intelligent design are really something i thought was dealt with along time ago. The theory of evolution is the most rock solid theory in science today which is backed up by a compilation of hard facts and laws of nature etc. Understanding this theory dismisses creationism immediately and i find it to be one of the most fascinating things i have looked into at depth.
It´s easy to see artificial selection work over our life times. Man have changed the common wolf into hundreds of different breeds of dog over a number of millenia, we have things like broccoli,cauliflower and brussel sprouts which came from the artificial selection of the common cabbage. Now imagine what can be done from billions of years of evolution. Dating rock from asteriods that have collided with earth confirms the age of the earth of 4.5 billion yrs as these asteriods from the belt between mars and jupiter came to be during the formation of the solar system. The oldest rocks dated on earth were found on the surface of Greenland. 3.7 billion yrs old. So many fields of science agree with eachother.

Science to me is honest as it searches for truth and it is absolutely modest in it´s failures( actually enthralled to find out it had been wrong).There is no hidden agenda with science.

Anyway i will always say i respect people for their belief´s. I just wanted to write my position on science and that more respect for it is needed.

wolfamongwolves

Mariamaniatis wrote:

And Science has never been wrong?

I never said that. Of course science has been wrong, but it learns from its mistakes, and even they help to increase our stock of knowledge about the universe we live in.

I could go on, but I'd just be repeating what newy777 said above.

blondieblue227

i'd like to step in and ask "what are you doing on the day of The Rapture?"

ShimmyMommy

blondieblue227 wrote:

i'd like to step in and ask "what are you doing on the day of The Rapture?"

BBQ & BON FIRE

Seriously, I am!

blondieblue227

catefrances

blondieblue227 wrote:

i'd like to step in and ask "what are you doing on the day of The Rapture?"

ill be laughing at the people who think this is actually coming... other than that itll be business as usual.

gimmesometruth27

blondieblue227 wrote:

i'd like to step in and ask "what are you doing on the day of The Rapture?"

i'll be floating up into space or something, leaving the rest of you suckers behind, lol....

just kidding.....

i think i might party like it's 1999 or something

redrock

blondieblue227 wrote:

i'd like to step in and ask "what are you doing on the day of The Rapture?"

Well... here is a bit of advice about it (hope I'm not offending anyone as it's sweet, really!)

http://www.atheistmedia.com/2011/05/rapture-advice.html

pandora

blondieblue227 wrote:

i'd like to step in and ask "what are you doing on the day of The Rapture?"

I'll have flowers in my hand and peace in my heart ...

not much different than today