The Holocaust

gimmesometruth27

hitler was trying to cleanse germany and europe of all people that he felt were racially impure or inferior to the "aryan" population he was trying to create. as an aside anyone else wonder how hitler could be aryan with brown hair and dark eyes???

anyway, it sucks that the gypsies and others besides jews are not mentioned in conversations about the holocaust. i think it is because the vast majority of those killed were jewish. what we get taught in school focuses mainly on the jews, and the gypsies and others get a very brief mention. kind of like the history of the KKK. they targeted blacks, jews, civil rights workers, catholics, and a few others, but mainly it is african american victims that we were taught about.

fuck

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

hitler was trying to cleanse germany and europe of all people that he felt were racially impure or inferior to the "aryan" population he was trying to create. as an aside anyone else wonder how hitler could be aryan with brown hair and dark eyes???

anyway, it sucks that the gypsies and others besides jews are not mentioned in conversations about the holocaust. i think it is because the vast majority of those killed were jewish. what we get taught in school focuses mainly on the jews, and the gypsies and others get a very brief mention. kind of like the history of the KKK. they targeted blacks, jews, civil rights workers, catholics, and a few others, but mainly it is african american victims that we were taught about.

you're wrong because the vast majority of those killed weren't jews, they were russian.

many Jewish leaders abused the holocaust in order to justify Israel's existence and ongoing colonial expansion and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. If the holocaust is kept focused on the persecution of Jews, rather than a vast majority of people, then it can justify the so-called necessity of a "Jewish state." I've already talked about this in this thread. Also, Norman Finkelstein wrote a book called 'The Holocaust Industry' that people should check out.

gimmesometruth27

i am not saying that i disagree with you, i just never thought to include the vast number of russian victims, most of which were prisoners of war.

according to this article 3.3 million russian POWs were killed in captivity but there is debate as to whether or not they should be included in the total number of victims of the holocaust instead of being counted as casualites of war itself.

http://www.onwar.com/articles/0610.htm

"One group that occasionally is offered up for consideration is that of Soviet prisoners of war (POWs). It is widely estimated that about 3.3 million Soviet POWs died in German captivity. Their inclusion in any non-Jewish Holocaust count however presents several issues: A) these individuals were combatants; the deaths are generally attributed to neglect and indifference rather than being systematic; and finally, C) Allied treatment of German prisoners was at times comparable suggesting this was a function of the type of war being waged rather than anything to do with a Nazi disposition towards the systematic extermination of Soviet POWs."

here is another fairly lengthy article with a breakdown of the numbers of non jewish victims.

http://www.ukemonde.com/holocaust/victims.html


Table 1
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust

Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown

god damn that is a lot of people......
:shock: :(

JOEJOEJOE

2 out of every 3 European Jews perished in the Holocaust. Even before the war, Jews were stripped of many legal rights and were barred from participating in many public events.

Spend some time reading about the Kristallnacht, aka The Night of the Broken Glass. Jewish homes business and temples were ransacked or destroyed. 30,000 Jewish men were put in concentration camps. After that, Jews were forced to live in ghettos until they were eventually taken away to the camps. We know what happened after that.

Because of all this, the survivors and the descendants of the dead have done their hardest to make sure it never happens again. Holocaust studies are part of every Jewish kid's education.

Every Nazi victim needs to be remembered.

pickupyourwill

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

here is another fairly lengthy article with a breakdown of the numbers of non jewish victims.

http://www.ukemonde.com/holocaust/victims.html


Table 1
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust

Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown

god damn that is a lot of people......
:shock: :(

:(

pickupyourwill

I would love to have a bookstore and exhibit set up just for The Holocaust. The more people know about it the better. I will not let it go silent into that goodnight, or banish without a fight. Those people, our world, deserves so much more than that. :idea:

tinkerbell

pickupyourwill wrote:

Table 1
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust

Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown

god damn that is a lot of people......
:shock: :(

Murder is murder, whether you are black, white, Jewish, Arab or catholic. The horrors of war and the suffering of millions of people in times of war are not something that any of us can put a ranking on. WWI & II were awful. So too was what happened in Rwanda, Cambodia, Vietnam and Bosnia. Who are we to say which is worse, when we are not the ones who lived it. I am not trying to take away from the scale of the Holocaust at all, but I am sure that those who live through their entire families being slaughtered would have an issue with a bunch of Westerners debating who suffered the most.

bytterman

pickupyourwill wrote:

I would love to have a bookstore and exhibit set up just for The Holocaust. The more people know about it the better. I will not let it go silent into that goodnight, or banish without a fight. Those people, our world, deserves so much more than that. :idea:

tinkerbell wrote:

Murder is murder, whether you are black, white, Jewish, Arab or catholic. The horrors of war and the suffering of millions of people in times of war are not something that any of us can put a ranking on. WWI & II were awful. So too was what happened in Rwanda, Cambodia, Vietnam and Bosnia. Who are we to say which is worse, when we are not the ones who lived it. I am not trying to take away from the scale of the Holocaust at all, but I am sure that those who live through their entire families being slaughtered would have an issue with a bunch of Westerners debating who suffered the most.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/poll-adds-to-controversy-over-rights-museums-holocaust-program/article1952131/

Poll rejects museum’s plan to set Holocaust apart from other genocides
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
Published Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2011 6:00AM EDT
"A poll sponsored by two organizations opposed to the exhibition plans of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights indicates Canadians wish to have “one exhibit which covers all genocides equally” rather than one zone devoted to “a particular genocide” such as the Holocaust and another dedicated to others.
The telephone poll of 1,216 adults, conducted earlier this month by Nanos Research, is the latest instalment in an ongoing feud between various communities and the CMHR over the Winnipeg-based museum’s plans to establish a large, permanent space highlighting the Holocaust and a separate one for other atrocities, such as 3.3 million Ukrainians starved to death under Stalin in 1932-33 and the 1915 Armenian genocide."

I didn't know about this plan, and I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. To me the Holocaust stands out among the horrors for it's sheer scale and systematic industrialization, and not simply because it nearly wiped out the Jewish population of Europe (and I'm not discounting the other victims). Sad that we need museums to have such exhibits at all I suppose.

pickupyourwill

bytterman wrote:

Poll rejects museum’s plan to set Holocaust apart from other genocides
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
Published Wednesday, Mar. 23, 2011 6:00AM EDT
"A poll sponsored by two organizations opposed to the exhibition plans of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights indicates Canadians wish to have “one exhibit which covers all genocides equally” rather than one zone devoted to “a particular genocide” such as the Holocaust and another dedicated to others.
The telephone poll of 1,216 adults, conducted earlier this month by Nanos Research, is the latest instalment in an ongoing feud between various communities and the CMHR over the Winnipeg-based museum’s plans to establish a large, permanent space highlighting the Holocaust and a separate one for other atrocities, such as 3.3 million Ukrainians starved to death under Stalin in 1932-33 and the 1915 Armenian genocide."

I didn't know about this plan, and I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. To me the Holocaust stands out among the horrors for it's sheer scale and systematic industrialization, and not simply because it nearly wiped out the Jewish population of Europe (and I'm not discounting the other victims). Sad that we need museums to have such exhibits at all I suppose.

To each his own, I guess. If that's what they think is best for their museum, then look on the bright side, atleast they're acknowledging genocide history and the spreading of its cautionary awareness.

I think the reason that the Holocaust stands out to me among the others is because of the superficial ideas that Hitler and his men chose to kill people on. Not only was it Jews, but delinquent, unsightly, and handicapped people as well. They were playing God--and no human has any right to do that. If they didn't like your looks, beliefs, or reputation--you were out the door.

Pepe Silvia

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Table 1
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust

Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown

god damn that is a lot of people......
:shock: :(

so possibly more ukranians died than jews? i'm just saying jewish ppl may have been the largest or 2nd largest demographic exterminated but many other shades of ppl were murdered, too, yet it seems like only the jews are really mentioned. it's like saying a person in the kkk doesn't like black ppl....they also don't like asians, hispanics, mixed......

gimmesometruth27

Pepe Silvia wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Table 1
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust

Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown

god damn that is a lot of people......
:shock: :(

so possibly more ukranians died than jews? i'm just saying jewish ppl may have been the largest or 2nd largest demographic exterminated but many other shades of ppl were murdered, too, yet it seems like only the jews are really mentioned. it's like saying a person in the kkk doesn't like black ppl....they also don't like asians, hispanics, mixed......

i don't really understand why mainly the jews get mentioned in schools here in the states. i know when i was taught about it the only other groups mentioned were gypsies and russian prisoners. have there been many famous books written of ukranian experiences in the camps? maybe it is because israel is more allied with the us than those other countries, so those of us in the us focus more on the jewish experiences? i don't know and that is a good question. i don't think it would fly though if the focus was taken off of 6 million jews and placed on 29 million total people, or whatever that estimated figure may be.

FiveB247x

Albeit such a topic shouldn't be turned into, "recognize my group for suffering more" pissing match, but with that said, the vast majority mentioned in that list which is recognized by most as the focal point of the Holocaust was solely because they were directly rounded up and exterminated by the Nazi's. As the writer of that article mentioned, Ukrainians were in a bad position and at times on both sides of war against Russia and Nazi Germany which is why the death toll was so high. What separates the Holocaust from most other historical genocides or atrocities is that it was the first state sponsored and systematic genocide of a group/types of people and at the heart why most don't speak of the Ukrainian death tolls in the matter.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

Albeit such a topic shouldn't be turned into, "recognize my group for suffering more" pissing match, but with that said, the vast majority mentioned in that list which is recognized by most as the focal point of the Holocaust was solely because they were directly rounded up and exterminated by the Nazi's. As the writer of that article mentioned, Ukrainians were in a bad position and at times on both sides of war against Russia and Nazi Germany which is why the death toll was so high. What separates the Holocaust from most other historical genocides or atrocities is that it was the first state sponsored and systematic genocide of a group/types of people and at the heart why most don't speak of the Ukrainian death tolls in the matter.

What are you talking about? it was not the first state sponsored genocide... perhaps the 'modern state', yes, but there have been plenty of genocides in the past taken place in the name of the monarch or christian state, etc... also the armenian genocide was before the Nazi Holocaust.

FiveB247x

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant more specifically the logistical and systematic extermination of a group. Of course there's been genocide and killings by governments, but the Nazi's was the first organized with modern logistics to carry it out. Police rounding up people, trains bringing them to camps all over their territories, etc. It is a very undervalued fact of the Holocaust when you think about it in those kind of terms.

___________ wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Albeit such a topic shouldn't be turned into, "recognize my group for suffering more" pissing match, but with that said, the vast majority mentioned in that list which is recognized by most as the focal point of the Holocaust was solely because they were directly rounded up and exterminated by the Nazi's. As the writer of that article mentioned, Ukrainians were in a bad position and at times on both sides of war against Russia and Nazi Germany which is why the death toll was so high. What separates the Holocaust from most other historical genocides or atrocities is that it was the first state sponsored and systematic genocide of a group/types of people and at the heart why most don't speak of the Ukrainian death tolls in the matter.

What are you talking about? it was not the first state sponsored genocide... perhaps the 'modern state', yes, but there have been plenty of genocides in the past taken place in the name of the monarch or christian state, etc... also the armenian genocide was before the Nazi Holocaust.

Byrnzie

Also, we shouldn't forget that an estimated 7 million mostly Ukrainian peasants were deliberately starved to death by Stalin between 1932-1933.

Where's their ten Hollywood movies a year?

Soulfire42

I've been a little disturbed at how little information the kids in our local school district have been getting about atrocities like the holocaust. I'm also worried by how few of the kids here know the reasons we went into our latest wars. I would think understanding why your nation is at war currently would be a topic covered in school, but it doesn't seem to be here. The holocaust is certainly one of the ultimate reminders of the horrors or war and what dehumanization of others can lead to. It's an important lesson to be continually teaching.

JOEJOEJOE

Byrnzie wrote:

Also, we shouldn't forget that an estimated 7 million mostly Ukrainian peasants were deliberately starved to death by Stalin between 1932-1933.

Where's their ten Hollywood movies a year?

Perhaps it would be nice if you start a grass-roots campaign to get such a move made.

Take action.

Jason P

Byrnzie wrote:

Also, we shouldn't forget that an estimated 7 million mostly Ukrainian peasants were deliberately starved to death by Stalin between 1932-1933.

Where's their ten Hollywood movies a year?

I have to admit, it's pretty amazing that a big budget movie on Stalin has yet to see the day of light. Seems like it would be a gold mine.

pickupyourwill

Jason P wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Also, we shouldn't forget that an estimated 7 million mostly Ukrainian peasants were deliberately starved to death by Stalin between 1932-1933.

Where's their ten Hollywood movies a year?

I have to admit, it's pretty amazing that a big budget movie on Stalin has yet to see the day of light. Seems like it would be a gold mine.

I agree. They should make a movie about him and his murders as well. They need more movies about these evil people. These younger generations need to have it in big blockbuster hits like my generation did growing up.

I don't see anything wrong with making a good movie about the Holocaust or Stalin, or others involved--every 5 yrs or so. If we just let it slip into an every 10-20 yr range, then many generations will miss out on the impact that it left on the world. It WAS organized murder--a little different from thousands killing each other for land and etc. It needs to be remembered for every generation to prevent it from happening again.

zarocat

I'm reading this right now
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_Search_for_Meaning

I highly recommend it!