The Holocaust

bytterman

Byrnzie wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Byrnzie, What would make somebody so intolerant of a Jewish-American person getting dramatic while visiting a concentration camp? It would presumably have meaning to them, don't you think?

I'm just of the opinion that a place of immense suffering isn't a suitable location for innapropriate histrionics. Just my personal take on it.

My experience was of people being extremely respectful, reflective, and of course emotional, but privately so. And yes, that included several Americans. Sorry if it seems like I'm leading the witness though.

JOEJOEJOE

Byrnzie wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Byrnzie, What would make somebody so intolerant of a Jewish-American person getting dramatic while visiting a concentration camp? It would presumably have meaning to them, don't you think?

I'm just of the opinion that a place of immense suffering isn't a suitable location for innapropriate histrionics. Just my personal take on it.

What if someone visits a Palestine memorial site many years from now....no tears allowed in your rule book?

Jason P

MrAbraham wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Byrnzie, What would make somebody so intolerant of a Jewish-American person getting dramatic while visiting a concentration camp? It would presumably have meaning to them, don't you think?

Of course it should have meaning to them, it should have meaning to anyone with a soul,Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Muslim or whatever else. The 'wonder' is about the Israeli or Jewish American getting all emotional and dramatic about the concentration camp, yet not feeling the same way about the pushing out and destruction of the Palestinians.

The problem is when we class ourselves into groups like that,you see, death is death,an innocent is an innocent, the Genocide done by Nazi Germany was horrific, as is the Genocide being done by Zionist Israel towards the Palestinians.

Difference, Israel does better PR and has better world media control and influence.

:roll:

JOEJOEJOE

MrAbraham wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Byrnzie, What would make somebody so intolerant of a Jewish-American person getting dramatic while visiting a concentration camp? It would presumably have meaning to them, don't you think?

Of course it should have meaning to them, it should have meaning to anyone with a soul,Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Muslim or whatever else. The 'wonder' is about the Israeli or Jewish American getting all emotional and dramatic about the concentration camp, yet not feeling the same way about the pushing out and destruction of the Palestinians.

The problem is when we class ourselves into groups like that,you see, death is death,an innocent is an innocent, the Genocide done by Nazi Germany was horrific, as is the Genocide being done by Zionist Israel towards the Palestinians.

Difference, Israel does better PR and has better world media control and influence.

Nice way to stereotype, eh?

Death is death, but it hits closer to home for some people, depending on the situation.

yosi

MrAbraham wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Byrnzie, What would make somebody so intolerant of a Jewish-American person getting dramatic while visiting a concentration camp? It would presumably have meaning to them, don't you think?

Of course it should have meaning to them, it should have meaning to anyone with a soul,Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Muslim or whatever else. The 'wonder' is about the Israeli or Jewish American getting all emotional and dramatic about the concentration camp, yet not feeling the same way about the pushing out and destruction of the Palestinians.

The problem is when we class ourselves into groups like that,you see, death is death,an innocent is an innocent, the Genocide done by Nazi Germany was horrific, as is the Genocide being done by Zionist Israel towards the Palestinians.

Difference, Israel does better PR and has better world media control and influence.

It's interesting that in a conversation regarding the need to properly remember the horrors of the holocaust you would start making comparisons to Israel & the Palestinians. Without minimizing the suffering in Palestine, the truth is that it bears almost no resemblance to the industrialized genocide of millions of people in the death camps, and to say that it does actually obfuscates the realities of the holocaust (which is what we are all saying shouldn't be done). It's also more than a little chilling to see people talking about Jews having "world media control" in a discussion of the Holocaust.

Idris

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Byrnzie, What would make somebody so intolerant of a Jewish-American person getting dramatic while visiting a concentration camp? It would presumably have meaning to them, don't you think?

Of course it should have meaning to them, it should have meaning to anyone with a soul,Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Muslim or whatever else. The 'wonder' is about the Israeli or Jewish American getting all emotional and dramatic about the concentration camp, yet not feeling the same way about the pushing out and destruction of the Palestinians.

The problem is when we class ourselves into groups like that,you see, death is death,an innocent is an innocent, the Genocide done by Nazi Germany was horrific, as is the Genocide being done by Zionist Israel towards the Palestinians.

Difference, Israel does better PR and has better world media control and influence.

Nice way to stereotype, eh?

Death is death, but it hits closer to home for some people, depending on the situation.

I was not stereotyping my friend, rather pointing out a specific situation. that we see much of. If you took any offence to it, that's unfortunate and I'm sorry.

Idris

yosi wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Byrnzie, What would make somebody so intolerant of a Jewish-American person getting dramatic while visiting a concentration camp? It would presumably have meaning to them, don't you think?

Of course it should have meaning to them, it should have meaning to anyone with a soul,Jewish, Christian, Atheist, Muslim or whatever else. The 'wonder' is about the Israeli or Jewish American getting all emotional and dramatic about the concentration camp, yet not feeling the same way about the pushing out and destruction of the Palestinians.

The problem is when we class ourselves into groups like that,you see, death is death,an innocent is an innocent, the Genocide done by Nazi Germany was horrific, as is the Genocide being done by Zionist Israel towards the Palestinians.

Difference, Israel does better PR and has better world media control and influence.

It's interesting that in a conversation regarding the need to properly remember the horrors of the holocaust you would start making comparisons to Israel & the Palestinians. Without minimizing the suffering in Palestine, the truth is that it bears almost no resemblance to the industrialized genocide of millions of people in the death camps, and to say that it does actually obfuscates the realities of the holocaust (which is what we are all saying shouldn't be done). It's also more than a little chilling to see people talking about Jews having "world media control" in a discussion of the Holocaust.

It bears a striking resemblance. We also can not deny that one of the key topics Israels and many supporters of Israel bring up is the Holocaust, they use it over and over again to justify their need for a place called Israel at the expense/destruction of the Palestinians, this is just fact.

Also, in a place like such memorials, it is often the best time to contemplate all suffering, to make sure it does not happens again. It is all so related.

also like to add, Israel pretty much locks millions of Palestinians in a cage, cut off water, food, then bomb them with weapons, gases. Sniper shooting of kids.

Each day, slowly taking more and more land, it is 100% a modern day genocide, and one would think, if anyone could relate to this, and not allow this to happen, are people who feel so close to the Nazi Genocide done to many millions back then.

yosi

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong. However you categorize what is happening in Palestine it is plain to see that it is not the systematic, industrialized murder of millions of people. Which is exactly my point. To properly remember the horror of the Holocaust for what it was you have to avoid "defining it down" by comparing it to every action you deem an atrocity.

Idris

yosi wrote:

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong. However you categorize what is happening in Palestine it is plain to see that it is not the systematic, industrialized murder of millions of people. Which is exactly my point. To properly remember the horror of the Holocaust for what it was you have to avoid "defining it down" by comparing it to every action you deem an atrocity.

It is indeed systematic, the slowly killing of the Palestinians, at the same time taking more land. This is just plain fact.

tinkerbell

I studied WWII extensively throughout my teenage years and at university. It was a awful, tragic time in all of our historys. What happened to the Jewish people was sickening.

I found Night by Elie Wiesel to be an amazing account.

gimmesometruth27

MrAbraham wrote:

yosi wrote:

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong. However you categorize what is happening in Palestine it is plain to see that it is not the systematic, industrialized murder of millions of people. Which is exactly my point. To properly remember the horror of the Holocaust for what it was you have to avoid "defining it down" by comparing it to every action you deem an atrocity.

It is indeed systematic, the slowly killing of the Palestinians, at the same time taking more land. This is just plain fact.

i feel that if israel continues with it's current policies towards the palestinians over the next 30-40 years, and with tacit support from the US, i am thinking that since 1967 there will be a few million palestinians who have died as a result.

no it is not as systematic or efficient, but the end result is the same. the cleansing of nearly an entire population from a specific geographic area.

the holocaust was a terrible, terrible thing. most likely the worst crime that man has ever committed against his fellow men. i do not think that that will ever happen again on that massive scale. that said, while nothing will ever compare in scope, the fact remains that killing is killing is killing whether it is via gas, via bombs, via missile airstrikes, via suicide bomb or rocket attack, or by starving people by witholding food, water, and denying medical treatment, the end result is the same. death.

yosi

I'm sorry, but a few similarities does not a sweeping comparison make. I went to summer CAMP as a kid, doesn't mean I was in Auschwitz.

In all seriousness, the comparison is absurd. It requires that one ignore one of the most striking aspects of the Holocaust, namely its scale. Not to mention that you're mixing your terms. Israel's occupation is systematic, but it is NOT systematically murdering Palestinians, which is what your comparison would require.

Gimme, by that standard ANY killing is comparable to the Holocaust, in which case the comparison is meaningless.

Idris

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

yosi wrote:

I'm sorry, but you are simply wrong. However you categorize what is happening in Palestine it is plain to see that it is not the systematic, industrialized murder of millions of people. Which is exactly my point. To properly remember the horror of the Holocaust for what it was you have to avoid "defining it down" by comparing it to every action you deem an atrocity.

It is indeed systematic, the slowly killing of the Palestinians, at the same time taking more land. This is just plain fact.

i feel that if israel continues with it's current policies towards the palestinians over the next 30-40 years, and with tacit support from the US, i am thinking that since 1967 there will be a few million palestinians who have died as a result.

no it is not as systematic or efficient, but the end result is the same. the cleansing of nearly an entire population from a specific geographic area.

the holocaust was a terrible, terrible thing. most likely the worst crime that man has ever committed against his fellow men. i do not think that that will ever happen again on that massive scale. that said, while nothing will ever compare in scope, the fact remains that killing is killing is killing whether it is via gas, via bombs, via missile airstrikes, via suicide bomb or rocket attack, or by starving people by witholding food, water, and denying medical treatment, the end result is the same. death.

In modern history, it is for sure one of the worst crimes done on such a large scale. No doubt about it. But I would say America dropping Nukes on Two Japanese cities, killing everyone, is = bad. Or The Americans throwing tons and tons of chemical weapons over Iraq, which not just kills now, but increases caner rates and birth defects and disease of the people and the unborn.

Israel, same deal. Because less Palestinians have died, makes very little difference. We know what the goal of Israel is, and it's not good.

gimmesometruth27

yosi wrote:

I'm sorry, but a few similarities does not a sweeping comparison make. I went to summer CAMP as a kid, doesn't mean I was in Auschwitz.

In all seriousness, the comparison is absurd. It requires that one ignore one of the most striking aspects of the Holocaust, namely its scale. Not to mention that you're mixing your terms. Israel's occupation is systematic, but it is NOT systematically murdering Palestinians, which is what your comparison would require.

Gimme, by that standard ANY killing is comparable to the Holocaust, in which case the comparison is meaningless.

the things i listed are all various ways of murder that states or other groups carry out on other groups of people. and leaders of these groups know that you can't have a cleansing of people without a murder. whether israel is systematically killing palestinians is neither here nor there. their policies are yielding death. that has been presented all over this forum for years.

yosi i am not doing this with you again. i have done it enough the last few years. you know my thoughts and i know yours. i thought we were cool last time and i am not interested in getting into a big peeing match in this thread. in my above post i stated that it was perhaps the most terrible of things that man has done against his fellow men. 6 million deaths in a decade and 6 million deaths over 60 years still equals 6 million deaths. the carrying out of those deaths might be different, but the body count is equal and the end result is the same. that is all i'm saying.

Idris

yosi wrote:

I'm sorry, but a few similarities does not a sweeping comparison make. I went to summer CAMP as a kid, doesn't mean I was in Auschwitz.

In all seriousness, the comparison is absurd. It requires that one ignore one of the most striking aspects of the Holocaust, namely its scale. Not to mention that you're mixing your terms. Israel's occupation is systematic, but it is NOT systematically murdering Palestinians, which is what your comparison would require.

Gimme, by that standard ANY killing is comparable to the Holocaust, in which case the comparison is meaningless.

They are allowed to occupy because they are allowed to kill. They murder and take more land. This is simple fact. What do you call that?

You also must understand, almost, almost any killing can lead to a Holocaust. When people turn away, the killing group is able to kill more and more.

Jerome230

Well, since there is technically no such thing as a "Palestinian", it's apparently irrelevant.


“The ‘Palestinian People’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the State of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism."

-Zuheir Mohsen, executive member of the PLO, in an interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw, March 1977.

Jason P

MrAbraham wrote:

yosi wrote:

I'm sorry, but a few similarities does not a sweeping comparison make. I went to summer CAMP as a kid, doesn't mean I was in Auschwitz.

In all seriousness, the comparison is absurd. It requires that one ignore one of the most striking aspects of the Holocaust, namely its scale. Not to mention that you're mixing your terms. Israel's occupation is systematic, but it is NOT systematically murdering Palestinians, which is what your comparison would require.

Gimme, by that standard ANY killing is comparable to the Holocaust, in which case the comparison is meaningless.

They are allowed to occupy because they are allowed to kill. They murder and take more land. This is simple fact. What do you call that?

You also must understand, almost, almost any killing can lead to a Holocaust. When people turn away, the killing group is able to kill more and more.

If members of Hamas fire rockets from the Gaza strip and kill Israelis, is Hamas committing genocide as well? Are the Sunnies and Shiites waging genocide against each other? Are the Americans waging genocide against the Taliban? Are Mexican cartels waging genocide against their government?

War and conflict is horrible, that much I can agree on. Israel and Hamas are engaged in a conflict. Each side has a goal which is to occupy more territory. I don't feel it is acceptable to compare a conflict to what happened in Germany, Darfur, Rwonda, and Yugoslavia.

fuck

Jason P wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

yosi wrote:

I'm sorry, but a few similarities does not a sweeping comparison make. I went to summer CAMP as a kid, doesn't mean I was in Auschwitz.

In all seriousness, the comparison is absurd. It requires that one ignore one of the most striking aspects of the Holocaust, namely its scale. Not to mention that you're mixing your terms. Israel's occupation is systematic, but it is NOT systematically murdering Palestinians, which is what your comparison would require.

Gimme, by that standard ANY killing is comparable to the Holocaust, in which case the comparison is meaningless.

They are allowed to occupy because they are allowed to kill. They murder and take more land. This is simple fact. What do you call that?

You also must understand, almost, almost any killing can lead to a Holocaust. When people turn away, the killing group is able to kill more and more.

If members of Hamas fire rockets from the Gaza strip and kill Israelis, is Hamas committing genocide as well? Are the Sunnies and Shiites waging genocide against each other? Are the Americans waging genocide against the Taliban? Are Mexican cartels waging genocide against their government?

War and conflict is horrible, that much I can agree on. Israel and Hamas are engaged in a conflict. Each side has a goal which is to occupy more territory. I don't feel it is acceptable to compare a conflict to what happened in Germany, Darfur, Rwonda, and Yugoslavia.

Your talking points are standard bullshit you find on some lame mainstream media network, the "conflict" did not start with Hamas firing rockets made of fertilizer. It started with a colonial settler movement not entirely unlike the French colonial settler movement. The Zionist movement, indeed the state of Israel itself was founded on terrorism. It was founded by kicking out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. There is no genocide? They keep the Palestinians contained now in towns eerily similar to ghettos. Zionists poison their water supply, cut down their food sources and economic sources (olive trees), burn their buildings, and arrest/kill them on a regular basis. Do they have to be thrown into gas chambers before you all cry genocide? is the bombardment of the most densely populated place on the planet resulting in 1400 deaths the overwhelming majority of whom are civilian not enough? And speaking of Hamas, which is some weak ass resistance movement hardly worth mentioning, was the resistance movements against the Nazis, which existed, classify the Nazi genocide no longer a genocide? Is it now more proper to call it a "conflict" rather than genocide? the Rwandan genocide was also a conflict between 2 parties. It doesn't mean that one side didn't slaughter an entire people. And no analogy is perfect. Many different parties including Jews went through a tormenting period for those years. However those years are far fewer than the 60+ years Palestinians have been forced to live under oppression and some of the most tragic circumstances ever.

it's absolutely disturbing to see people in here minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians. This is the Holocaust industry, that no other conflict can compare to this. That once the Holocaust is mentioned, the Jews are seen again as victims--victims of an eternal crime that will never be forgotten, while all the other injustices especially the injustice done toward the Palestinians in the name of a "jewish state" goes by unchecked. there is no ranking of injustices. the holocaust is not the worst crime. quit placing it on its own pedestal. we should learn from it as much as we can of course, but the point of learning from it is to prevent anything like it from happening again. So where have we all been the last 6 decades when the Israelis have been terrorizing the Palestinians?

gimmesometruth27

___________ wrote:

Your talking points are standard bullshit you find on some lame mainstream media network, the "conflict" did not start with Hamas firing rockets made of fertilizer. It started with a colonial settler movement not entirely unlike the French colonial settler movement. The Zionist movement, indeed the state of Israel itself was founded on terrorism. It was founded by kicking out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. There is no genocide? They keep the Palestinians contained now in towns eerily similar to ghettos. Zionists poison their water supply, cut down their food sources and economic sources (olive trees), burn their buildings, and arrest/kill them on a regular basis. Do they have to be thrown into gas chambers before you all cry genocide? is the bombardment of the most densely populated place on the planet resulting in 1400 deaths the overwhelming majority of whom are civilian not enough? And speaking of Hamas, which is some weak ass resistance movement hardly worth mentioning, was the resistance movements against the Nazis, which existed, classify the Nazi genocide no longer a genocide? Is it now more proper to call it a "conflict" rather than genocide? the Rwandan genocide was also a conflict between 2 parties. It doesn't mean that one side didn't slaughter an entire people. And no analogy is perfect. Many different parties including Jews went through a tormenting period for those years. However those years are far fewer than the 60+ years Palestinians have been forced to live under oppression and some of the most tragic circumstances ever.

it's absolutely disturbing to see people in here minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians. This is the Holocaust industry, that no other conflict can compare to this. That once the Holocaust is mentioned, the Jews are seen again as victims--victims of an eternal crime that will never be forgotten, while all the other injustices especially the injustice done toward the Palestinians in the name of a "jewish state" goes by unchecked. there is no ranking of injustices. the holocaust is not the worst crime. quit placing it on its own pedestal. we should learn from it as much as we can of course, but the point of learning from it is to prevent anything like it from happening again. So where have we all been the last 6 decades when the Israelis have been terrorizing the Palestinians?

well stated.

pickupyourwill

bytterman wrote:

I don't have kids, no idea what the 'right' age would be but surely depends on the particular child? Holocaust education should start as early as possible imo (along with other atrocities and examples of human stupidity of course). At what age does this get discussed in school? I vaguely remember this being done late in elementary school, say grade 7 or 8 in the Ontario system, so figure I was 12 or so.

I think 6-8th grade is the appropriate age here as well. I remember us learning about the Gulf War and then world history around that time as well. I think the local air force base museum even had an exhibit on the Holocaust that we went to on a field trip. My best friend and classmate at the time was reading The Diary of Anne Frank. And remember, people, I went to an American Catholic junior high---again, they're not as close-minded or "holier-than-thou"-minded as many people may think. And that's saying alot from me because I have constantly been taking shit from Catholics throughout my life. But no matter how hateful some of them can be, I still forgive them time after time. But atleast I'm sticking up for myself all the time now. To recap: I'm not saying that most Catholics don't fit into the asshole/aggressive category, just that several of them don't and are pretty decent...but only several.

A trip to Germany is not realistic for me and my family now or ever probably. Another car and other living expenses tend to take precedence. Unfortunately, I let myself get carried away with emotion too often--without the money to back it up.

I think this whole post for me is just another way of God wanting me to keep those victims in my prayers.

All the best to those who make that trip to Germany. Thank you to all that remember the victims and will never forget. Hopefully, the world is getting better. I'd like to think so anyway. peace & love