The Holocaust

yosi

I really have no interest in getting into a discussion of Israel/Palestine here either. I'm really only interested in accuracy. I think any proper moral accounting requires accuracy (not political hyperbole). Comparing Rwanda to the Holocaust makes sense. They are both genocides, and in Rwanda, although fewer people were killed, the rate of killing was actually greater than in WWII. The Palestine comparison is sensationalist and clearly politicized. As terrible as the treatment of the Palestinians is, it isn't genocide. That is plain to see.

fuck

Jason P wrote:

Forgive me, El Guapo. I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education. But could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me?

fuck

yosi wrote:

I really have no interest in getting into a discussion of Israel/Palestine here either. I'm really only interested in accuracy. I think any proper moral accounting requires accuracy (not political hyperbole). Comparing Rwanda to the Holocaust makes sense. They are both genocides, and in Rwanda, although fewer people were killed, the rate of killing was actually greater than in WWII. The Palestine comparison is sensationalist and clearly politicized. As terrible as the treatment of the Palestinians is, it isn't genocide. That is plain to see.

And my point is not to claim it even is genocide, I don't care about semantics. My point is to claim that by denying it as genocide by saying "It's terrible but it's not genocide" you are essentially minimizing the struggle. No two conflicts are ever the same. Thus, the Rwandan genocide is not the same as the Holocaust. In many ways, it can be more cruel though, like the fact that all the hundreds of thousands of Rwandas massacred were done in cold blood, person to person, as opposed to gas chambers. But by saying what I just said, I am not suggesting that gas chambers are more humane ways of killing someone. So a comparison (and thus a distinction) can be made without ranking them. But what people essentially do with massacres and oppression is they rank it, with the Holocaust at the top. This is wrong, and that is my point.

JOEJOEJOE

___________ wrote:

yosi wrote:

I really have no interest in getting into a discussion of Israel/Palestine here either. I'm really only interested in accuracy. I think any proper moral accounting requires accuracy (not political hyperbole). Comparing Rwanda to the Holocaust makes sense. They are both genocides, and in Rwanda, although fewer people were killed, the rate of killing was actually greater than in WWII. The Palestine comparison is sensationalist and clearly politicized. As terrible as the treatment of the Palestinians is, it isn't genocide. That is plain to see.

And my point is not to claim it even is genocide, I don't care about semantics. My point is to claim that by denying it as genocide by saying "It's terrible but it's not genocide" you are essentially minimizing the struggle. No two conflicts are ever the same. Thus, the Rwandan genocide is not the same as the Holocaust. In many ways, it can be more cruel though, like the fact that all the hundreds of thousands of Rwandas massacred were done in cold blood, person to person, as opposed to gas chambers. But by saying what I just said, I am not suggesting that gas chambers are more humane ways of killing someone. So a comparison (and thus a distinction) can be made without ranking them. But what people essentially do with massacres and oppression is they rank it, with the Holocaust at the top. This is wrong, and that is my point.

If there were no rankings, how would we have known that the singer from the (English) Beat was one of the best in his field?

fuck

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

If there were no rankings, how would we have known that the singer from the (English) Beat was one of the best in his field?

Or that Pearl Jam is the best band? I've no problem with ranking talent, just suffering.

JOEJOEJOE

___________ wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

If there were no rankings, how would we have known that the singer from the (English) Beat was one of the best in his field?

Or that Pearl Jam is the best band? I've no problem with ranking talent, just suffering.

Perhaps your problem with ranking "suffering" allows you to have a clear conscience when you demean the severity of the Holocaust.

Thorns2010

Unless I've missed it, I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned this yet.

While I understand that the Jewish people were persecuted to no end in WWII, I can't help but be bothered by that fact that whenever the topic of the Holocaust comes up, no one ever mentions the million of NON Jews that were killed by the Nazi's.

Depending on the definition of the term 'Holocaust' the Nazi's killed as many as 17 MILLION people.

What about the Gypsies, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents?

JOEJOEJOE

Thorns2010 wrote:

Unless I've missed it, I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned this yet.

While I understand that the Jewish people were persecuted to no end in WWII, I can't help but be bothered by that fact that whenever the topic of the Holocaust comes up, no one ever mentions the million of NON Jews that were killed by the Nazi's.

Depending on the definition of the term 'Holocaust' the Nazi's killed as many as 17 MILLION people.

What about the Gypsies, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents?

I always try to mention 10,000,000

guypjfreak

Thorns2010 wrote:

Unless I've missed it, I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned this yet.

While I understand that the Jewish people were persecuted to no end in WWII, I can't help but be bothered by that fact that whenever the topic of the Holocaust comes up, no one ever mentions the million of NON Jews that were killed by the Nazi's.

Depending on the definition of the term 'Holocaust' the Nazi's killed as many as 17 MILLION people.

What about the Gypsies, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents?

what about wot stalin did to those he controlled.
the whole second world war thing was catastrophic on every level and in my very humble opinion should NEVER be forgotten by all of us .
peace

Thorns2010

guypjfreak wrote:

Thorns2010 wrote:

Unless I've missed it, I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned this yet.

While I understand that the Jewish people were persecuted to no end in WWII, I can't help but be bothered by that fact that whenever the topic of the Holocaust comes up, no one ever mentions the million of NON Jews that were killed by the Nazi's.

Depending on the definition of the term 'Holocaust' the Nazi's killed as many as 17 MILLION people.

What about the Gypsies, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents?

what about wot stalin did to those he controlled.
the whole second world war thing was catastrophic on every level and in my very humble opinion should NEVER be forgotten by all of us .
peace

Exactly.

I guess, and it could be because I don't know much about it, but, why is it always the Jewish people that are viewed as the victims? Were they treated worse then the gays and Gypsies, and others? Honest question, because I don't know.

Byrnzie

Jason P wrote:

Israel and Hamas are engaged in a conflict. Each side has a goal which is to occupy more territory.

Please explain to me how the goal of Hamas is to occupy more territory?


Were the French resistance also engaged in an effort to occupy more territory when they fought against the Nazi occupation of France?

yosi

Hamas doesn't exactly make a secret of the fact that their long-term goal is the elimination of Israel, and the reimposition of Muslim rule over the whole of its former territory.

Electric_Delta

Jerome230 wrote:

Well, since there is technically no such thing as a "Palestinian", it's apparently irrelevant.


“The ‘Palestinian People’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the State of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism."

-Zuheir Mohsen, executive member of the PLO, in an interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw, March 1977.

Wow.

Nice picture.

davidtrios

haunting short read about the Holocaust- Night by Eli Wiesel.

sparky_fry

Davidtrios wrote:

haunting short read about the Holocaust- Night by Eli Wiesel.

+1

pickupyourwill

Found these 2 young adult ones near my son's movies at the library. Haven't read them yet.

I Will Plant You a Lilac Tree--a memoir of a Schindler's list survivor--by Laura Hillman

Auschwitz--True Tales From a Grotesque Land by Sara Nomberg-Przytyk

cajunkiwi

Davidtrios wrote:

haunting short read about the Holocaust- Night by Eli Wiesel.

I highly recommend Maus too - it's a graphic novel about the Holocaust... a biography about the author's father's time in a concentration camp.

Pepe Silvia

pickupyourwill wrote:

I'm sure if you traced my ancestry all the way back there, some distant ancester of mine was probably involved somehow in the killing of thousands of Jews. Were all of their future generations cursed in some way? Maybe not, but maybe so. Scary to think about.

Feel free to share your thoughts on this ugly, tragic time in history.

i've always wondered why jews are usually the only demographic brought up in regards to the holocaust? hitler gassed gyspies, gays, blacks, foreigners.....anyone seen as being inferior to the pure white race

Thorns2010

Pepe Silvia wrote:

pickupyourwill wrote:

I'm sure if you traced my ancestry all the way back there, some distant ancester of mine was probably involved somehow in the killing of thousands of Jews. Were all of their future generations cursed in some way? Maybe not, but maybe so. Scary to think about.

Feel free to share your thoughts on this ugly, tragic time in history.

i've always wondered why jews are usually the only demographic brought up in regards to the holocaust? hitler gassed gyspies, gays, blacks, foreigners.....anyone seen as being inferior to the pure white race

Already asked that, no one answered the question, maybe they'll respond to you?

JOEJOEJOE

Pepe Silvia wrote:

pickupyourwill wrote:

I'm sure if you traced my ancestry all the way back there, some distant ancester of mine was probably involved somehow in the killing of thousands of Jews. Were all of their future generations cursed in some way? Maybe not, but maybe so. Scary to think about.

Feel free to share your thoughts on this ugly, tragic time in history.

i've always wondered why jews are usually the only demographic brought up in regards to the holocaust? hitler gassed gyspies, gays, blacks, foreigners.....anyone seen as being inferior to the pure white race

what is your opinion on the matter?