If The WI Teachers/State Empoyees Get Screwed (PJ Related)

Jason P

WaveRyder wrote:

Jason P wrote:

usamamasan1 wrote:

way to go union guys. you sharted all over the place. taxpayers paying for you again...

Protesters have taped hundreds — perhaps even thousands — of homemade posters and signs on the walls of the Capitol, many of them mocking Walker and objecting to his proposals.

Wisconsin Administration Secretary Mike Huebsch told the court that it would take $500,000 to supervise the removal of the tape, $6 milion to restore the damage to the interior of the building and an additional $1 million to restore damage done from items taped to the exterior.

I'll bet we can get it repaired for under $50K if we use illegal aliens.

As for someone who works in construction, I would like to get on Mr. Huebsch bid list! If there are even 2,000 posters, that amounts to $3,750 per poster to repair the damage. It's time for me to looking into getting a WI contractor's license ...

Is it so expenses because the unions are so strong?

It's so expensive because Mr. Huebsch is pulling costs estimates out of his arse. You must have to take crazy pills to be involved in politics.

Paul Andrews

You know, as an outsider - albeit, and informed outsider, it amazes me to watch this debate take place. Attack the teachers - this makes real good sense! You need to attract the best and most dedicated to this profession - not whoever you can get for the lowest cost. If anything governments should be moving to protect the wages and conditions of teachers, police, nurses and other essential services at times of economic trouble. These are not the people who have put the USA in the economic strife it is in these days - they are the ones you are relying on to pull you out of it!

The best teachers are usually those working in the poorest areas, the hardest schools - with the momst damaged kids. Their dedication to their students goes beyond what any politician or right wing shock jock knows or even understands. To rate them on test scores or to denegrate their profession based on a few bad apples in criminal and foolish. Likewise, to judge all union activites on the excesses of a few is plain stupid. It is obvious that many of you have not learn the lessons of history and why unions formed in the first place. If more workers stood together to protect their rights against those who would have you working unreasonable hours for a pitance of a wage, then you would be in a far better situation.

Those in power gain more power when they give the downtrodden someone to hate. And that is what is happening now - turn the country against the teachers, play the politics of envy, lower their wages conditions - the effect of this wont be seen for a few years when your education system slips further behind the world and then you'll just blame the teachers again. But what is more worrying is that they'll come after another 'public enemy' next. Who will it be - those fat cat nurses, police, council workers? Just pray it is not you.

Watching arsehats on fox explain why those on >$250k per year should not see the Bush tax cuts expire but argue strongly to lower teachers' wages sickens me. It was not public workers who bankrupted your states but they are expected to did you out of the hole - amazing. As the gulf between the rich and poor widens, workers should not be attacking one another, but standing together againt these pricks including the pricks who have corrupted their unions.

A strong public sector is essential and anyone who tries to convince you otherwise needs to have their motives closely examined.

gfnk001

I don't want to mix political beliefs with music, but when so many mis-informed people are bashing teachers for wanting a workable salary, let me tell you about me. I am a 15 year veteran teacher in WV. I teach high school theatre and yes am paid for 210 days a year. I usually work a minimum of 50 hours a week when not in play production. When in play production that can easily increase to a minimum of 60+ hours a week. In WV we do not have a 'union', rather we have members of the NEA or AFT respectably, not considered unions because it is against state law for state employees to form a union. That's fine with me. I love my job. I do get to pay my bills, and my daughter has a roof over her head. It would be nice to live in a safe neighborhood, but the housing market in the part of the state I live in is the highest in the state. I wish my wife and I could afford to take a yearly vacation. I wish I received a decent tax refund check. I wish I was a neutron bomb. But alas, I do work in the summer to make extra money. As a matter of fact, most teachers I know have either a part time job, or a second full time job in the summer. We do this because we care about our jobs, we know the importance of our jobs, we know we may never gain the respect of the population due to a few idiot teachers who make horrible decisions. But we have very little to no say in what our jobs will consist of, our hands become tied when it comes to disciplining students, we barely have time to eat lunch in 30 minutes, or to take a pee break. But you know what? I wouldn't have it any other way. I love what I do.

Now let me change my focus to the hypocrisy that is Fox News.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/0 ... 31243.html

DO NOT EVER COMPARE ME TO A WALL STREET EXEC. DO NOT EVER SAY WE "ONLY WORK 9 MONTHS A YEAR". HOW DARE YOU FOX NEWS IMPLY WE ARE OVERPAID. shame on you. I'd love to see any CEO or news anchor who questions the validity of my profession trade places with me for 1 week.

any takers? Here's what I do: 110 students a day, plus In School Suspension Duty, plus a 30 minute lunch (usually working lunch) 25 IEP's, 3 504 plans, writing across the curriculum, content mapping, discipline referrals, don't forget to keep track of those lesson plans (I prepare Theatre 1,2,3,4, Theatre construction, and Acting EVERY WEEK), plus rehearsals every week at least once a week 3-5 pm, then 3 days a week 3p-6p, then daily 3p - 7 pm, oh yeah don't forget to organize those fundraisers to maintain said theatre program because we receive no financial support from the board of education, and field trips to cultivate a full range of experiences for my students, and parent phone calls and e-mails, and showing up to work with laryngitis because it's better than getting a substitute, or not taking a sick day in 5 years because of the same reason.
So don't you dare call us overpaid state employees with summer's off. How dare you.

Paul Andrews

gfnk001, well said:

What I really love about this debate is the final level your detractors will sink to: "well if you don't like it, quit and get a job in the private sector!" Just what the education system needs - to lose those who are the best and brightest to other occupations. Well I did - and the system lost another strong teacher who worked in the toughest schools, with the toughest and most needy students and actually made a difference. I now earn twice as much running my own business with far less stress and abuse from those who have no fucking idea at all.

For every perceived excess in Education and Education Unions (not that there really are any), there are a thousand excesses enjoyed by your detractors. The world needs more good teachers, less bankers, less share market traders and far fewer highly paid talking heads on 24 hour news stations - and far fewer career politicians. It's a crying shame when the most sense on TV is made by the host of a fake news show (Jon Stewart).

The unions and the tea party have the chance to actually make change for the betterment of your entire country, but instead they become part of the political machine backing the same two dead horses - often at the expense of those they claim to represent - and from my vantage point, their goals are very similar. Shame.

Don't allow the media to manipulte you - don't take what Fox, CNMBC, CNN and other say as the truth. Educate yourself and stand for something - because right now - people are falling for anything!

usamamasan1

Paul Andrews wrote:

Don't allow the media to manipulte you - don't take what Fox, CNMBC, CNN and other say as the truth. Educate yourself and stand for something - because right now - people are falling for anything!

Government Union Collective Bargaining 101
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyxuUjgH ... ata_player

Paul Andrews

usamamasan1 wrote:

Paul Andrews wrote:

Don't allow the media to manipulte you - don't take what Fox, CNMBC, CNN and other say as the truth. Educate yourself and stand for something - because right now - people are falling for anything!

Government Union Collective Bargaining 101
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyxuUjgH ... ata_player

While that did educate me on a couple of things, that is a very right wing 'educational' video. Only being able to emplopy union labour seems odd - but at the same time, excluding union labour would also be wrong. Our system works differently to that. While I agree that corruption in the process costs tax payers millions and protects the often 'unprotectable'. To remove collective bargaining rights altogether is a massive over reaction.

Let's take the same blowtorch to millitary spending and the corruption and waste in that industry. While I'm sure the days of spending thousands of dollars for a monkeywrench for a hornet are beyond us, it was not so long ago and I and sure some of those big corporations are able to build in some great profit margins.

Likewise the excesses on corporate America (and the world) that recently had to be bailed out at the taxpayer's expense around the globe because certain institutions were deemeded 'too big to fail'. The people who caused that where hardly impacted and still enjoy incredible perks and bonuses. Once again, it was those least able to afford it who paid for that mess.

The thing is, this kind of waste is in every industry associated with gonvernment and the political cycle is that the Dems/Labor/ will attack business and corporate targets and the GOP/Tories/ will attack small l labour organisations and the public sector. Why - because lobbyists from each sector 'own' their parties. What kind of influence does Murdoch have over the Republican party? His family has placed unfair influence in the Australian political system for generations. How about Haliburton? The oil companies? I am sure there are equally worrying figures behind the scenes in their system - like there are here. Is it just unions stopping tax payers getting what they really want/deserve?

Unions are not all bad and for the most part protect workers form unfair and exploitative practices and legislation. Enterprise is not all bad looking to screw every worker. Government (big and small) is not bad. It is the greed and corruption in all these organisations that is the cancer. At the heart of the American political process as I see and understand it, is corrupted by political donations and affiliations, lobbyists and corrupt officials in government, unions and business. Identified in this video as a problem, this corruption is what stops taxpayers getting value for money - and often stops working people from getting a fair go.

If a politician does not have the balls to stand up to a union blackmail or a 'political donation' bribe and vote for what is right - then that official needs to go. I the union can't start work because of an unreasonable demand by a posturing official, that official should be removed from power by the membership. If a corporation's board engages in unethical practises then they should be removed by their shareholders. But none of this happens - usually due to apathy, ignorance and greed. Ultimately those charged with fixing this mess have no desire to realy fix it and create harmony because ultimately - they are the ones who would stand to lose in this scario of true power to the people/members/shareholders.

Ultimately we all get the system we deserve and those who don't both to vote in elections and those who vote without thinking are at the heart of the problem because we either allow or enable these things to occur. If people voted for politicians, union leaders and so on, based on better principles than they presently do, then a better balance between the compting forces in a market economy with aspects of social policy can be managed all people do better - this is surely the true purpose of government.

In many way the two party political system provides stable government and transitions of power after electons. The pedulum rarely swings far. But for the stability we pay a high price - often corruption. If politicians were not beholden to a political party, if every voter truly voted for a politician who actually represented them and their views rather than be in the pocket of lobbyists of whatever persuasion, this debate would probably be irrelevant.

It never gets old...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koY6kXhQDQo

Shawshank

PJ_Lukin wrote:

Matter of opinion I guess. What I see (at least in Ontario) is that the average uninionized worker makes WAY more money than they should simnply because of the union. For example, many TTC bus drivers in Toronto make upwards of $100,000 a year to drive a bus. Are you kidding me? No education required, no unique skills required, and they make $100k.

They only have thousands of lives in their hands each day? No reason to pay that person a good wage that I can think of. :?

And people bitch about how much doctors make. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

MG79478

CROJAM95 wrote:

Wow I can't believe all these right wingers love monarchies so much. How the fuck do you explain a dumb, dumb like Bush makes it to the highest office of our land. By rigging an election morons..... I laughed my ass off when Palin kept saying Obama was a "community organizer" like that's a horrible thing. Sounds like Obama worked to get where he's at..... Bush and his neocons stole democracy and planned the invasion of Iraq years before he was elected


It's all part of the plan!! Wake up uneducated ones.

I hope this is a joke? This post has to be Tounge in Cheek. You never can tell on this board, some people on here actually believe this kind of non-sense.

vant0037 wrote:

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

That's an interesting take on recent history. Bush wasn't the best president by any means, but given what we are currently stuck with he sure seems like it now! Life was pretty damn good from 2001-2009. Once the Democrats took control of congress in the last 2 years of Bush's term, things started to go downhill. The only thing good to have happened since Obama took over is that Jimmy Carter can now say he is no longer the worst president ever. You really don't seem to have a good understanding of what really has caused most of the problems in this country, and I can assure you that it wasn't George W Bush, despite what TV has told you. These problems have been growing since the days of FDR.

This is priceless. "Life was pretty damn good from 2001-2009."

Let's see: $1 trillion war started on false premises, totally incompetent response to a natural disaster, gutting of the EPA, creation of a new entitlement benefit pandering to senior citizens & rX companies (that cost more than pretty much all Obama spending so far), complete collapse of the economy...

Yeah, it was fucking awesome. :roll:

When you respond like this, I think you say "swish" afterward... Great post!

More like “airball” for his epic fail, repeating of liberal media garbage. You might as well say “I heard the same stuff on TV, and I believe it all too!”

Obama hasn’t ended the war. Obama’s response was worse to worse disasters. Gutting the EPA = Good thing. The entitlements Obama has created are far worse. Obama has more spending than all previous presidents combined. Economy collapse due to years of liberal policies… made worse by Obama. Bush wasn’t perfect, Obama is far worse.

So again I will ask, how can anyone think things are better now than during the Bush years? Unless you are a freeloader of the state?

MG79478

The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% towards their own retirement.....right now, the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too.

AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work)

TEACHERS:

Milwaukee $86,297
Elmbrook $91,065
Germantown $83,818
Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)
Men Falls $81,099
West Bend $82,153
Waukesha $92,902
Sussex $82,956
Mequon $95,297
Kettle Mor $87,676
Muskego $91,341

STAFF:
Arrowhead - Bus mgr. - Kopecky - $169,525
Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519
Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222
Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!)
Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835


UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone):
Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828
Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000
Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??)

(source:Madison.com
-as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?)

How about some other "public servant job" ??? What do they make?

Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):

Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.
Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598
Madison garbage men made over $100,000
30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000


MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only):

136 Drivers made more than $70,000
54 Drivers made more than $80,000
18 Drivers made more than $90,000
8 Drivers made more than $100,000
Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ)

(The average private bus driver makes $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.)
AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO CONTINUE PAYING 100% OF THEIR GENEROUS RETIREMENT?
THEY HAVE SHUT DOWN SCHOOLS AS THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY 5.8% OF IT THEMSELVES
....REALLY?

inmytree

MG79478 wrote:

The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% towards their own retirement.....right now, the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too.

AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work)

TEACHERS:

Milwaukee $86,297
Elmbrook $91,065
Germantown $83,818
Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)
Men Falls $81,099
West Bend $82,153
Waukesha $92,902
Sussex $82,956
Mequon $95,297
Kettle Mor $87,676
Muskego $91,341

STAFF:
Arrowhead - Bus mgr. - Kopecky - $169,525
Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519
Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222
Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!)
Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835


UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone):
Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828
Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000
Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??)

(source:Madison.com
-as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?)

How about some other "public servant job" ??? What do they make?

Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):

Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.
Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598
Madison garbage men made over $100,000
30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000


MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only):

136 Drivers made more than $70,000
54 Drivers made more than $80,000
18 Drivers made more than $90,000
8 Drivers made more than $100,000
Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ)

(The average private bus driver makes $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.)
AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO CONTINUE PAYING 100% OF THEIR GENEROUS RETIREMENT?
THEY HAVE SHUT DOWN SCHOOLS AS THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY 5.8% OF IT THEMSELVES
....REALLY?

I love chain emails...

and yes, you should fund their GENEROUS retirement...

patrickredeyes

Those are not rights those are privileges that have milked for the last 40 yrs. Well today that all stops when Mr. Walker signs the bill.

josevolution

So will Walkerl be voted out come next election along with all those Senators ...

mikepegg44

josevolution wrote:

So will Walkerl be voted out come next election along with all those Senators ...

probably not, he had enough votes to win the first time when he said he was going to do stuff like this, Unless the governor's term in wisconsin is only two years, this will be long forgotten by everyone but the unions in about a month when the next big controversy hits the nation

Policemen cannot strike, we should take to the streets until they have every right every other union member has...people have different jobs and different unions should and do fall under different rules and this shouldn't be any different...different

josevolution

mikepegg44 wrote:

josevolution wrote:

So will Walkerl be voted out come next election along with all those Senators ...

probably not, he had enough votes to win the first time when he said he was going to do stuff like this, Unless the governor's term in wisconsin is only two years, this will be long forgotten by everyone but the unions in about a month when the next big controversy hits the nation

Policemen cannot strike, we should take to the streets until they have every right every other union member has...people have different jobs and different unions should and do fall under different rules and this shouldn't be any different...different

But he didn't campaign on these points there is no way he ran telling everybody that he had this up hi's sleeve ..

Jason P

josevolution wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

josevolution wrote:

So will Walkerl be voted out come next election along with all those Senators ...

probably not, he had enough votes to win the first time when he said he was going to do stuff like this, Unless the governor's term in wisconsin is only two years, this will be long forgotten by everyone but the unions in about a month when the next big controversy hits the nation

Policemen cannot strike, we should take to the streets until they have every right every other union member has...people have different jobs and different unions should and do fall under different rules and this shouldn't be any different...different

But he didn't campaign on these points there is no way he ran telling everybody that he had this up hi's sleeve ..

Indiana's governor did the exact same thing Walker did but back in '05. He ended state employee collective bargaining when the state was $1.5B in the hole. Six years later the state has close to $1B in surplus and he is one of the most popular governors in the states history. The only difference was the lack of a media frenzy.

So basically Walker needs to pull the State out of debt. If he fails, his ass will be on the line ... although as mentioned by others, four years is a very long time for the collective memory of people.

Pearl Jam_ie

There are recall efforts underway for 5 Democrat and 8 Republican Senators, as well as Gov. Walker. Recalls are very difficult to accomplish and can take a long time. I don't know if any will be a success, but they are definitely trying. Only 3 Repubs would be needed to overturn the vote. I think this situation isn't going to get any better anytime soon, as over 100,000 are expected to be at the Capitol tomorrow again protesting the bill. 1000's of farmers are expected as well, for a Tractorcade that's going to parade around the Capitol Square at 10a.m. Now that's a Wisconsin-style protest...

gfnk001

Any chance Gov. Walker would be willing to pay for his own car, home, or take a salary cut? Didn't think so.
Or maybe pay for any of his utilities? Still don't think so, but then again he's wealthy, not like those of us on the front lines actually facing over 100 high school students a day, getting dirty, sick, having to pay out of pocket for supplies, etc. As per history, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class suffers the most.

The WI governor's salary is $137,092, a car, and a home - according to the Council of State Governments, The Book of States 2010 (Table 4.3).

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Scott ... z1GLg9vvq6

Here is a real look at a teacher's personal life, and sums up 98% of all teachers I know, it's interesting to see that the most accurate portrayal comes from a news satire.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer ... -rips.html

patrickredeyes

josevolution wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

josevolution wrote:

So will Walkerl be voted out come next election along with all those Senators ...

probably not, he had enough votes to win the first time when he said he was going to do stuff like this, Unless the governor's term in wisconsin is only two years, this will be long forgotten by everyone but the unions in about a month when the next big controversy hits the nation

Policemen cannot strike, we should take to the streets until they have every right every other union member has...people have different jobs and different unions should and do fall under different rules and this shouldn't be any different...different

But he didn't campaign on these points there is no way he ran telling everybody that he had this up hi's sleeve ..

Yes he's doing what he said he would do when he ran. And the ones protesting are the people that didn't vote for him, big shocker there.

patrickredeyes

gfnk001 wrote:

Any chance Gov. Walker would be willing to pay for his own car, home, or take a salary cut? Didn't think so.
Or maybe pay for any of his utilities? Still don't think so, but then again he's wealthy, not like those of us on the front lines actually facing over 100 high school students a day, getting dirty, sick, having to pay out of pocket for supplies, etc. As per history, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class suffers the most.

The WI governor's salary is $137,092, a car, and a home - according to the Council of State Governments, The Book of States 2010 (Table 4.3).

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Scott ... z1GLg9vvq6

Here is a real look at a teacher's personal life, and sums up 98% of all teachers I know, it's interesting to see that the most accurate portrayal comes from a news satire.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer ... -rips.html

Does any state governor pay for any of their utilities? I'm thinking not so whats your point?


And since your a teacher or claim to be one let me ask you a couple questions. Did you go to school to become a teacher? Or did you decide on becoming a teacher after things didn't work out and you had to make another career choice? Maybe you thought well I'll have the summers off and that will be great. Or well if I become a teacher I can retire at age 55 and have a sweet pension. I wish I had a job where I knew once I retire at a younger age then most that I will have a awesome pension and I barley had to pay anything to get it . I don't feel sorry for teachers in the state of Wisconsin. And yes I have family members that are teachers and some make over $76,000 a year. And they have the nerve to complain that everything is being taken away from them by Walker.

JimmyV

patrickredeyes wrote:

Yes he's doing what he said he would do when he ran.

I'm not convinced this argument rings true.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... gn-on.html

I have no problem with any union member being forced to contribute to their own retirement or health benefits package. To me that is just common sense. But taking away collective bargaining rights after never having campaigned on it is out of line.