Why isn't abortion considered murder?

zarocat

HeidiJam wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Don't you already know the answer to this?
We protect Sea Turtles because they are at risk of extinction... as a result of what humans are doing to their environment. Nothing to do with abortion. You ask for our logic... then apply this sort of ill-logic?
Maybe is Mankind were on the verge of extinction... your logic would apply. But, since we are growing in numbers, we are not an endangered species.
...
Now... do you use your anti-abortion logic to China, India and Africa? It'd be great if abortions weren't allowed there, right?

Sorry buddy my logic is fine. Why are your protecting eggs (embryos) since they are not turtles? just like someone said earlier that human embryos are not human.

shhhhhhhh......

redrock

HeidiJam wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Don't you already know the answer to this?
We protect Sea Turtles because they are at risk of extinction... as a result of what humans are doing to their environment. Nothing to do with abortion. You ask for our logic... then apply this sort of ill-logic?
Maybe is Mankind were on the verge of extinction... your logic would apply. But, since we are growing in numbers, we are not an endangered species.
...
Now... do you use your anti-abortion logic to China, India and Africa? It'd be great if abortions weren't allowed there, right?

Sorry buddy my logic is fine. Why are your protecting eggs (embryos) since they are not turtles? just like someone said earlier that human embryos are not human.

You're just playing at being obtuse. You know very well what is meant here. We all know that an embryo can lead to a young one (any species). Therefore, should one want more turtles (to avoid extinction), one must protect the eggs to enable them to potentially develop fully. As a poster said, should the human race be close to extinction, maybe one will be protecting their embryos.

inmytree

HeidiJam wrote:

zarocat wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

where, theres just eggs (embryos) there. There not turtles, so why do we need to protect them?

(You do realize that this question has nothing to do with aborting a developing person, right ?)

Because were running out of turtles.

according to you a turtle egg(embryo) is not a turtle, right?

right...

feel free to harvest and eat as many turtle eggs that you want....

he still stands

I'm not interested in hypotheticals, especially ridiculous ones about turtle eggs... reality is vexxing enough.

Life begins (the scientific definition) with the zygote because cells are dividing. Simple.

PERSONHOOD is different... it requires INDIVIDUALITY, differentiation from the parent. That is much more complex and there is no 100% right or wrong answer. (could be when the heart beats, capable of feeling pain, capable of cognition, and MANY more)

Unfortunately Heidi, we do not live in a world of black/white and this argument will never be "solved."

We can all agree on this; abortion isn't something to be done on a whim or treated lightly. You are putting an end to a potential life. Like Cosmo said, pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion. Let's leave the government out of these sorts of decisions.

JOEJOEJOE

Do people prefer having a choice when it comes to abortion, or being denied a choice, which may lead to a situation where a parent can not properly feed and clothe their child?

he still stands

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Do people prefer having a choice when it comes to abortion, or being denied a choice, which may lead to a situation where a parent can not properly feed and clothe their child?

or where they go to a black market provider... or use a coat hanger (as was done up until the 50s)

dasvidana

I really see this issue along the lines of organ donation. Because the fetus isn't a human being capable of survival on its own, then the mother is serving as an organ donor of sorts. Because you can't require someone to donate an organ to save another person's life at any other time, then why would you want to require a woman to donate a uterus to save another person?

Is denial of assistance to a person who cannot live without the assistance of another murder? It is cruel, yes, but murder, no.

gimmesometruth27

nice publicity stunt here...suppose this fetus will grow up to be pro-choice and is forced to testify against it's will??
i think i will try to summon the ghost of John Wilkes Booth using a ouija board to testify at his trial for Lincoln's murder...

Porter Schedules Fetus To Testify in Favor of Heartbeat Bill

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/p ... tbeat-bill

When Janet Porter is involved in something, you know it is just a matter of time before it goes completely off the rails.

It happened with her 2007 Values Voter Debate where a choir sang "Why Should God Bless America? " while Religious Right leaders asked questions to empty podiums representing the Republican candidates who skipped the event.

And it happened again with her May Day prayer rally at the Lincoln Memorial which left her facing $70,000 in expenses and cost her her daily radio show.

And so it was only a matter of time before her already bizarre "Heartbeat Bill" activism in Ohio took a turn toward the surreal, with Porter announcing plans to have a fetus "testify" in favor of the legislation:

A fetus has been scheduled as a legislative witness in Ohio on a unique bill that proposes outlawing abortions after the first heartbeat can be medically detected.

Faith2Action, the anti-abortion group that has targeted Ohio to pilot the measure, called the in-utero witness the youngest to ever come before the House Health Committee at 9 weeks old.

Faith2Action president Janet Folger Porter said the intent is to show lawmakers who will be affected by the bill, which abortion rights groups oppose. Ohio Right to Life has not endorsed the measure.

An aide to committee Chairman Lynn Wachtmann said a pregnant woman will be brought before the committee and an ultrasound image of her uterus will be projected onto a screen. The heartbeat of the fetus will be visible in color.

Just allow me to remind everyone that Porter served as the co-chair of Mike Huckabee's Faith and Family Values Coalition when he ran for president.

brandon10

Heidi wants to do everything possible to protect that fetus. But as soon as that child is born...FUCK em. No welfare for those unwanted children.

keeponrockin

Because a fetus is not a person.

And I know you didn't ask, but I think abortion should be legal and regulated because if it wasn't people would be going for back alley illegal abortions, leading to extortion of women and a much less healthy environment.

Heidi, let me ask you this. If abortion was outlawed, what would you suggest for a punishment for abortion? What about attempted abortion? Would you be okay with increasing funds for schools, welfare, etc.. as demand would most certainly go up?

Cosmo

I still want to know what Heidi's stance on abortion in China, India and Africa. Because that is a case of comparing human beings to human beings, not human beings to egg laying reptiles.

CJMST3K

Nastasja wrote:

Can you remember your time in your mother's womb? I can't.

Flawless logic. I can't remember when I was 1 year old, so I personally feel that abortions in the 91st week are ok.

he still stands

CJMST3K wrote:

Flawless logic. I can't remember when I was 1 year old, so I personally feel that abortions in the 91st week are ok.

I've learned that if you're looking for logic... you shouldn't be reading this forum. With the exception of a select few posters, myself included of course, this forum is mostly rhetoric, rage, and misinformation.

Idris

Cosmo wrote:

I still want to know what Heidi's stance on abortion in China, India and Africa. Because that is a case of comparing human beings to human beings, not human beings to egg laying reptiles.

What makes someone human? A developed brain? The ability to walk upright? self-awareness?

We can build all sorts of tools, like a gun, we can use for protection, hunting for food, yet how many humans use it for destruction? Are humans always humane? If we are not humane, are we really human?

Or are we only human when we become a person, things that we have done in our lives and things we have learned throughout our time making us who we are. But when a person goes against the basic human traits like (for example) empathy, what kind of person is that? When a person will support all sorts of unjust wars and oppression, turning a blind eye to the simple truths, are they humane at all? Do they have the empathy needed to progress in a society? Well I guess it would depend on the society, but a society based on logic, understand, empathy. Basic truths, or a society based on ego and lack of understanding?

Or are they simply, simple minded reptiles in a human body?

JOEJOEJOE

MrAbraham wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I still want to know what Heidi's stance on abortion in China, India and Africa. Because that is a case of comparing human beings to human beings, not human beings to egg laying reptiles.

What makes someone human? A developed brain? The ability to walk upright? self-awareness?

We can build all sorts of tools, like a gun, we can use for protection, hunting for food, yet how many humans use it for destruction? Are humans always humane? If we are not humane, are we really human?

Or are we only human when we become a person, things that we have done in our lives and things we have learned throughout our time making us who we are. But when a person goes against the basic human traits like (for example) empathy, what kind of person is that? When a person will support all sorts of unjust wars and oppression, turning a blind eye to the simple truths, are they humane at all? Do they have the empathy needed to progress in a society? Well I guess it would depend on the society, but a society based on logic, understand, empathy. Basic truths, or a society based on ego and lack of understand?

Or are they simply, simple minded reptiles in a human body?

What makes someone human? A developed brain? The ability to walk upright? self-awareness?

that disqualifies many people here!

Pearl Jam_ie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM

I think George sums it up pretty well...

Loulou

A friend of mine had become pregnant a little while ago even though she had been given an IUD. They found she had bowel cancer and she was told she shouldn't have the baby because either her or the baby could die. Is she a murderer if she doesn't go through with the pregnancy????? This topic is not so black and white. I am pro-choice and like it's been said before in this thread, it doesn't mean pro-abortion.

Idris

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I still want to know what Heidi's stance on abortion in China, India and Africa. Because that is a case of comparing human beings to human beings, not human beings to egg laying reptiles.

What makes someone human? A developed brain? The ability to walk upright? self-awareness?

We can build all sorts of tools, like a gun, we can use for protection, hunting for food, yet how many humans use it for destruction? Are humans always humane? If we are not humane, are we really human?

Or are we only human when we become a person, things that we have done in our lives and things we have learned throughout our time making us who we are. But when a person goes against the basic human traits like (for example) empathy, what kind of person is that? When a person will support all sorts of unjust wars and oppression, turning a blind eye to the simple truths, are they humane at all? Do they have the empathy needed to progress in a society? Well I guess it would depend on the society, but a society based on logic, understand, empathy. Basic truths, or a society based on ego and lack of understand?

Or are they simply, simple minded reptiles in a human body?

What makes someone human? A developed brain? The ability to walk upright? self-awareness?

that disqualifies many people here!

If that's the case, maybe we could say/wonder, should we destroy these people? If they are not helping society, maybe they should not be part of it? If people are destroying society, if people are not developing, and are hurting the progress of mankind, like a disease should we not try and stop them? An almost post birth abortion if you will,

Is that not evolution? Is it not similar to abortion of a fetus? Or should we give the people who look to stop the progress of mankind more opportunity? At what point do we make this choice? When mankind is on the verge of extinction?

As we have said, A fetus can not take care of itself, abort it, it's fine, and a person who has lived 50 years in this world, done no good, hurts fellow man. And I'm not just saying hurt as in physically hurt, but hurt as in let's say pushing propaganda, spreading of lies and misinformation. Is that person, not as useless as a fetus? Or is a fetus that is yet to be aborted more useful? As it has yet been given time grow into a baby, be birthed and make the choices, use his/her reasoning and developed brain to live and then, see where they stand as far as evolution goes.

But we quickly will call it murder right? If we just take the life of that useless 50yr old who's hurting mankind, it's murder, what do we base that on? Perhaps we base that on the simple thing that makes us human?

catefrances

MrAbraham wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I still want to know what Heidi's stance on abortion in China, India and Africa. Because that is a case of comparing human beings to human beings, not human beings to egg laying reptiles.

What makes someone human? A developed brain? The ability to walk upright? self-awareness?

We can build all sorts of tools, like a gun, we can use for protection, hunting for food, yet how many humans use it for destruction? Are humans always humane? If we are not humane, are we really human?

Or are we only human when we become a person, things that we have done in our lives and things we have learned throughout our time making us who we are. But when a person goes against the basic human traits like (for example) empathy, what kind of person is that? When a person will support all sorts of unjust wars and oppression, turning a blind eye to the simple truths, are they humane at all? Do they have the empathy needed to progress in a society? Well I guess it would depend on the society, but a society based on logic, understand, empathy. Basic truths, or a society based on ego and lack of understanding?

Or are they simply, simple minded reptiles in a human body?

we are not the only creatures with a developed brain. we are not the only creatures who make and use tools. we are not the only creature with the ability to walk upright and i am not talking a jesus lizard doing a sprint or a lemur skippedy do dahhing down a bushtrack in madagascar.

humans are like every other creature on earth... were just not smart enough to acknowledge it most of the time.

Idris

catefrances wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I still want to know what Heidi's stance on abortion in China, India and Africa. Because that is a case of comparing human beings to human beings, not human beings to egg laying reptiles.

What makes someone human? A developed brain? The ability to walk upright? self-awareness?

We can build all sorts of tools, like a gun, we can use for protection, hunting for food, yet how many humans use it for destruction? Are humans always humane? If we are not humane, are we really human?

Or are we only human when we become a person, things that we have done in our lives and things we have learned throughout our time making us who we are. But when a person goes against the basic human traits like (for example) empathy, what kind of person is that? When a person will support all sorts of unjust wars and oppression, turning a blind eye to the simple truths, are they humane at all? Do they have the empathy needed to progress in a society? Well I guess it would depend on the society, but a society based on logic, understand, empathy. Basic truths, or a society based on ego and lack of understanding?

Or are they simply, simple minded reptiles in a human body?

we are not the only creatures with a developed brain. we are not the only creatures who make and use tools. we are not the only creature with the ability to walk upright and i am not talking a jesus lizard doing a sprint or a lemur skippedy do dahhing down a bushtrack in madagascar.

humans are like every other creature on earth... were just not smart enough to acknowledge it most of the time.

Yes Yes, I saw a dog also walking upright on YouTube, a cat flush a toilet and a dog on tv yelling 'I love my bank' and Yes we do not only make use of tools, but combine all these factors with self awareness and so on, I mean the fact that we are having this discussion, yes these things make us different. No?

and of course not to lose sight of the fact that we are all living, like these other creatures, and just like them, we will all die. Yes in that regard, we are all the same, and as a living human, a person, we can see that, and hopefully, respect that. The gift of life.