Westboro Baptist Chuch continues the Devil’s work

MotoDC

spamsonite wrote:

what are you questioning? they way i read it is you question the "Christianity" of a someone who claims to be a Christian but also hates the poor. the two things don't mix. the problem with that is it's the same thing you're saying we can't do; you question a Christian who hates the poor, others question a Christian who protest funerals with hate filled placards. both are heart judgments that you argue we can't make (and i agree with you). now i maybe completely misunderstanding you, but that's why i'm asking.

Nope, I think you got it. He's using "hating the poor" as an example of de facto "bad" in order to make his point...which is that whether or not good/bad exists, we aren't in a position to judge or determine it.

For me personally, there's a difference between knowing something's wrong and judging a person for doing it. It's a bit gray, I'll admit, but the main thing to remember is that whatever it is that I think that other guy is doing wrong, I've got my own skeletons and sins to deal with. So I can know he's in the wrong but not condemn him for it. Not sure if that makes sense.

Cosmo

MotoDC wrote:

spamsonite wrote:

what are you questioning? they way i read it is you question the "Christianity" of a someone who claims to be a Christian but also hates the poor. the two things don't mix. the problem with that is it's the same thing you're saying we can't do; you question a Christian who hates the poor, others question a Christian who protest funerals with hate filled placards. both are heart judgments that you argue we can't make (and i agree with you). now i maybe completely misunderstanding you, but that's why i'm asking.

Nope, I think you got it. He's using "hating the poor" as an example of de facto "bad" in order to make his point...which is that whether or not good/bad exists, we aren't in a position to judge or determine it.

For me personally, there's a difference between knowing something's wrong and judging a person for doing it. It's a bit gray, I'll admit, but the main thing to remember is that whatever it is that I think that other guy is doing wrong, I've got my own skeletons and sins to deal with. So I can know he's in the wrong but not condemn him for it. Not sure if that makes sense.

...
Thanx for using your powers of clairvoyance to explain to others what I am trying to get... what am I thinking about your assessment, now?
...
The actual reason why I am asking is because I HEAR people using that phrase, 'Oh... they (Westboro Baptists) aren't Real Christians'. All i'm asking is... what the heck does that mean? Who gets to make that call? Can't the Westboro types call others 'not real Christians' for tolerating homosexuality in America?
What does it take to be a good Christian?
The only reason why I use the poor as an EXAMPLE... is because it is just that... AN EXAMPLE. I mean, I guess I must be wrong in thinking it is part of the Christian faith to tend to the poor... as Jesus did. Perhaps a Christian can tell me what is a good EXAMPLE of what a Good Christian is supposed to be and i can use that and AN EXAMPLE. Because apparently, and previously unbeknownst to me, hating the poor is a trait of a Good Christian.
My bad.

Cosmo

MotoDC wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

What I am NOT doing, is trying to define what makes a Good Christian as opposed to what makes a Bad Christian. I just want to know... what is the definition (if any) and what is the criteria that creates that definition. For example, if someone hates the poor... and claims to be Christian... is that a criteria or can you still be a Christian and hate (or feel indifferent towards) the poor? If it makes them a good Christian... what is the criteria? If it makes them a bad Christian... why... and according to whom?
I believe the Westboro Baptist Church people display horrible HUMAN traits and a lack of human compassion... nothing to do with their Christian religious belief... it's just a shitty thing as a human being to do to grieving family members. But, I don't get the whole, 'Real/Good Christian' remarks. I presume it is a means for Christians to distance themselves with Rev. Phelps... but, is it their call to make?

Seems to me you're not really playing fair. Seems to me you're trying to get people to answer a question, the terms of which you haven't fully defined, most notably "good" and "bad". You keep saying you want someone to try and answer what makes a good Christian or bad Christian, with an emphasis on the Christianity. Yet before you can answer that, you (or someone) must define good and bad.

The Artist Formerly Known as Outlaw has tried to define it for you, but you keep dancing around (and moving backward from) the structure he is attempting to provide (e.g., not good vs bad but follows scripture vs. doesn't follow scripture). So if you won't let us define good and bad in a clear manner, how can you expect anyone to answer your question meaningfully?

Perhaps that's not what you want then. Perhaps you aren't really on a quest for knowledge, but are just playing a more sophisticated version of "Can God microwave a burrito until it's too hot for Him to eat?" I suppose only Cosmo knows the truth there. What's in your heart, Cosmo Kramer?

...
You are reading WAY too deep into this. It is real simple:
What makes a Good(Bad) Christian? Why? According to Whom?

MotoDC

Cosmo wrote:

...You are reading WAY too deep into this. It is real simple:
What makes a Good(Bad) Christian? Why? According to Whom?

That's very possible.

But in my own reading of this thread, it seems your question has been answered in multiple ways, perhaps not in one cohesive post, but en totale. Outlaw (who isn't even a Christian) answered it -- does the Bible/Qu'ran say to do it? Spamsonite answered it -- would Christ have done it? I attempted to clarify the answers and the context in which they were given. Yet you just keeping asking the same thing over and over.

Taking all that into consideration, it seems to me that there are a couple of implications to consider:
1) You're never going to be satisfied with an answer because you've already decided that there is no answer; or
2) You don't really care to find an answer because you really just want to make your point that you don't think Christianity -- or perhaps any religion -- makes any sense; or
3) You can't read or are incapable of understanding the answers presented to you.

I've read enough of your posts to know that #3 is not the problem, though it is possible for someone of respectable intellect to WILL him or herself not to understand something because they simply don't WANT to understand, but again I don't think that's the case here.

I didn't need "clairvoyance" to determine your intent or at least come up with a hypothesis about it; you've posted enough in this thread and AMT in general that I think people on this board can draw conclusions about you...or at least the "you" that you put forth online. It's nothing to take personally.

Finally, I'm not sure I should even address your reaction to my comments about "hating the poor" b/c it's clear you completely missed my point or I didn't make it clear enough. What I was getting at was that you were implicitly (again, see above explanation for how I drew that conclusion) questioning the ability of Christians to define what is a "real" Christian while setting forth a de facto criteria of that very same thing, namely, that hating the poor was clearly, obviously NOT a trait of a real Christian. Just seemed a bit inconsistent.

mikepegg44

Can someone please point me to a Christian group or individual that hates the poor?

sometimes I just don't know about this place...

samsonite

Cosmo wrote:

MotoDC wrote:

spamsonite wrote:

what are you questioning? they way i read it is you question the "Christianity" of a someone who claims to be a Christian but also hates the poor. the two things don't mix. the problem with that is it's the same thing you're saying we can't do; you question a Christian who hates the poor, others question a Christian who protest funerals with hate filled placards. both are heart judgments that you argue we can't make (and i agree with you). now i maybe completely misunderstanding you, but that's why i'm asking.

Nope, I think you got it. He's using "hating the poor" as an example of de facto "bad" in order to make his point...which is that whether or not good/bad exists, we aren't in a position to judge or determine it.

For me personally, there's a difference between knowing something's wrong and judging a person for doing it. It's a bit gray, I'll admit, but the main thing to remember is that whatever it is that I think that other guy is doing wrong, I've got my own skeletons and sins to deal with. So I can know he's in the wrong but not condemn him for it. Not sure if that makes sense.

...
Thanx for using your powers of clairvoyance to explain to others what I am trying to get... what am I thinking about your assessment, now?
...
The actual reason why I am asking is because I HEAR people using that phrase, 'Oh... they (Westboro Baptists) aren't Real Christians'. All i'm asking is... what the heck does that mean? Who gets to make that call? Can't the Westboro types call others 'not real Christians' for tolerating homosexuality in America?
What does it take to be a good Christian?
The only reason why I use the poor as an EXAMPLE... is because it is just that... AN EXAMPLE. I mean, I guess I must be wrong in thinking it is part of the Christian faith to tend to the poor... as Jesus did. Perhaps a Christian can tell me what is a good EXAMPLE of what a Good Christian is supposed to be and i can use that and AN EXAMPLE. Because apparently, and previously unbeknownst to me, hating the poor is a trait of a Good Christian.
My bad.

i think my comments were misunderstood, so to clarify i absolutely agree that taking care of the poor is a great example of Christ-like behavior and the responsibility of any professing Christian. my apologies for any confusion.

i think you're thoughtful and intelligent, (and i'm trying my best ) i just think our wires got crossed!

no hard feelings!

Cosmo

spamsonite wrote:

i think my comments were misunderstood, so to clarify i absolutely agree that taking care of the poor is a great example of Christ-like behavior and the responsibility of any professing Christian. my apologies for any confusion.

i think you're thoughtful and intelligent, (and i'm trying my best ) i just think our wires got crossed!

no hard feelings!

...
No. I got the gist of what you are saying and I agree with you... that at the base level... no one can decide who is a good or 'Real' Christian and who isn't. No one is granted that authority... not learned Biblical scholars, not priests, not the Pope. We decide ourselves... based upon our own honest and truthful self-assessment/self-judgement whether we are good Christians or not. No excuses... no made up justifications.
We can say that the Westboro Baptists people are doing shitty things that are counter to our definition of common decency and compassion for the grieving... but, claiming they are not real Christians is as invalid as their opinions that we are not real Christians because we tolerate homosexuality.

mikepegg44

Cosmo wrote:

spamsonite wrote:

i think my comments were misunderstood, so to clarify i absolutely agree that taking care of the poor is a great example of Christ-like behavior and the responsibility of any professing Christian. my apologies for any confusion.

i think you're thoughtful and intelligent, (and i'm trying my best ) i just think our wires got crossed!

no hard feelings!

...
No. I got the gist of what you are saying and I agree with you... that at the base level... no one can decide who is a good or 'Real' Christian and who isn't. No one is granted that authority... not learned Biblical scholars, not priests, not the Pope. We decide ourselves... based upon our own honest and truthful self-assessment/self-judgement whether we are good Christians or not. No excuses... no made up justifications.
We can say that the Westboro Baptists people are doing shitty things that are counter to our definition of common decency and compassion for the grieving... but, claiming they are not real Christians is as invalid as their opinions that we are not real Christians because we tolerate homosexuality.

i would say simply that you cannot call yourself Christian if you do not at the very least attempt to follow Christ's teachings. the old testament is not in itself a Christian philosophy, cannot be as Christ was not around yet in the time line of genesis and beyond. That isn't to say you cannot believe in the same God as Christians do, but you cannot call yourself a Christian unless Christ's teachings are what you base your faith on. Might be semantics, but it is just what I believe...I would love for someone from the WBC show me where they are following in the steps of Christ with their behavior, it isn't up to me to judge them, that will come later by whatever supernatural force you believe in, whether it be God or Karma...

Cosmo

mikepegg44 wrote:

i would say simply that you cannot call yourself Christian if you do not at the very least attempt to follow Christ's teachings. the old testament is not in itself a Christian philosophy, cannot be as Christ was not around yet in the time line of genesis and beyond. That isn't to say you cannot believe in the same God as Christians do, but you cannot call yourself a Christian unless Christ's teachings are what you base your faith on. Might be semantics, but it is just what I believe...I would love for someone from the WBC show me where they are following in the steps of Christ with their behavior, it isn't up to me to judge them, that will come later by whatever supernatural force you believe in, whether it be God or Karma...

...
Really... can't anyone call themselves Christian? And trying to follow the teaching of Jesus... you either do or you don't. You can try and fail... all it means is you fail.
As for me... I 'try' to follow what Jesus teaches and often fail. not by Satan's doing, but because of my own weaknesses. I accept those failures and don't pilre my mistakes on Jesus' back. I make those mistakes and I own them, therefore, I carry them.
As for the Westboro nuts... just like any other Christian, I'm pretty sure they and pull one Chapter:Verse from the New Testament and tell you what it means... as the Gospel Truth. I can't say whether they are bad Christians... but, I can say they are asshole media whores.
And personally... I don't care what ultimately happens to them. That is between them and their God. My wishing ill will upon them... well, I think it makes me more like them, than different from them. I choose, instead, to view their protest for what they are... pathetically comical rants to whore themselves out for media play... and leave it at that.

mikepegg44

Cosmo wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

i would say simply that you cannot call yourself Christian if you do not at the very least attempt to follow Christ's teachings. the old testament is not in itself a Christian philosophy, cannot be as Christ was not around yet in the time line of genesis and beyond. That isn't to say you cannot believe in the same God as Christians do, but you cannot call yourself a Christian unless Christ's teachings are what you base your faith on. Might be semantics, but it is just what I believe...I would love for someone from the WBC show me where they are following in the steps of Christ with their behavior, it isn't up to me to judge them, that will come later by whatever supernatural force you believe in, whether it be God or Karma...

...
Really... can't anyone call themselves Christian? And trying to follow the teaching of Jesus... you either do or you don't. You can try and fail... all it means is you fail.
As for me... I 'try' to follow what Jesus teaches and often fail. not by Satan's doing, but because of my own weaknesses. I accept those failures and don't pilre my mistakes on Jesus' back. I make those mistakes and I own them, therefore, I carry them.
As for the Westboro nuts... just like any other Christian, I'm pretty sure they and pull one Chapter:Verse from the New Testament and tell you what it means... as the Gospel Truth. I can't say whether they are bad Christians... but, I can say they are asshole media whores.
And personally... I don't care what ultimately happens to them. That is between them and their God. My wishing ill will upon them... well, I think it makes me more like them, than different from them. I choose, instead, to view their protest for what they are... pathetically comical rants to whore themselves out for media play... and leave it at that.

correct, but they aren't just making mistakes, they are completely ignoring Jesus' teachings. You cannot do that and call yourself christian. you can however make mistakes while trying to follow in the foot steps of Jesus. That doesn't make you a good or bad christian, ignoring jesus altogether makes you a non-christian no matter what you call yourself.
But you are definitely right, it isn't up to me to judge their behavior, that is up to whatever God they will face in the end.

know1

puremagic wrote:

Why is it that these so called God fearing people only come out of the woodwork to inflict additional pain upon others in their time of need? Seems to me they do more work in the name of the Devil than in the name of God.

You hit it on the head with that last statement. The church I go to couldn't be more of a polar opposite to what Westboro is preaching. It's hard to believe they can even have the label of "church".

haffajappa

mikepegg44 wrote:

Can someone please point me to a Christian group or individual that hates the poor?

sometimes I just don't know about this place...

Are you saying that not one Christian person hates the poor?

Godfather.

haffajappa wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

Can someone please point me to a Christian group or individual that hates the poor?

sometimes I just don't know about this place...

Are you saying that not one Christian person hates the poor?

I've never seen or heard of one.

Godfather.

Cosmo

Godfather. wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

Can someone please point me to a Christian group or individual that hates the poor?

sometimes I just don't know about this place...

Are you saying that not one Christian person hates the poor?

I've never seen or heard of one.

Godfather.

...
Are you a Christian?

mikepegg44

haffajappa wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

Can someone please point me to a Christian group or individual that hates the poor?

sometimes I just don't know about this place...

Are you saying that not one Christian person hates the poor?

I would ask you what constitutes hating in your mind? Are their christians who don't do anything for the poor, absolutely, but does that mean they hate them? absolutely not
Hate is a very strong word. Being against welfare doesn't mean you hate the people who need it.

Godfather.

I try my best Cosmo.

Godfather.

Cosmo

Godfather. wrote:

I try my best Cosmo.

Godfather.

...
I'm just curious... and I'm not making any judgements... and my comments are made in general terms and not directed at you.
But, there are a lot of people who are Christian, yet openly express distain for people who have been dealt a shitty hand, whether by their own decisions or circumstances that are out of their control.
For example, Welfare. People on Welfare and/or Food Stamps are often the target. I understand that there is fraud and I think it needs to be addressed and corrected, but I often hear so much hatred in the words of people when speaking about welfare in general... that whole attitude about free hand-outs and all. I believe that the strong should help the weak, not kick them aside.
We just got past the Christmas season. Everyone is all charitable and giving.. the whole Christmas Spirit of giving. Here at work, we 'Adopt a Family' and collect money and provide gifts and money for a family that is down on it's luck. We often get a single mother, kids from different fathers... typically non-white, always fairly young. Most of the year, she is seen as a stupid whore that can't keep her knees together and is welching off the working folk. Yet, at Christmas, she is a 'deserving, needy' family. This is by people I work with and talk about church and forgiveness out of one side of their mouths... and spew indifference and distain out the other. I like these people I work with and don't think they are bad people... I just do not understand the rationale. Why can't they have the Christmas Spirit all year?
Another thing is immigration. how often do we hear about that? These people come from a place where poor is almost incomprehensible to most of us. Does it matter that they come from another place that is defined by imaginary lines on a map? I am more than grateful that I won the birth lottery and ended up being born here, in California, rather than at the Guatemalan/Mexico border. Just because they have a different citizenship than me, doesn't make them a lesser person than I am.
I'm not a Christian. I do not attend any churches. I try to follow the teaching of Jesus, but do not buy into all of that stuff about Him being responsible for MY sins. He is my teacher, not my Saviour.
Maybe my problem is my perspective... I don't care how people get themselves into bad situations and just see them as people needing a hand.

Godfather.

Cosmo wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I try my best Cosmo.

Godfather.

...
I'm just curious... and I'm not making any judgements... and my comments are made in general terms and not directed at you.
But, there are a lot of people who are Christian, yet openly express distain for people who have been dealt a shitty hand, whether by their own decisions or circumstances that are out of their control.
For example, Welfare. People on Welfare and/or Food Stamps are often the target. I understand that there is fraud and I think it needs to be addressed and corrected, but I often hear so much hatred in the words of people when speaking about welfare in general... that whole attitude about free hand-outs and all. I believe that the strong should help the weak, not kick them aside.
We just got past the Christmas season. Everyone is all charitable and giving.. the whole Christmas Spirit of giving. Here at work, we 'Adopt a Family' and collect money and provide gifts and money for a family that is down on it's luck. We often get a single mother, kids from different fathers... typically non-white, always fairly young. Most of the year, she is seen as a stupid whore that can't keep her knees together and is welching off the working folk. Yet, at Christmas, she is a 'deserving, needy' family. This is by people I work with and talk about church and forgiveness out of one side of their mouths... and spew indifference and distain out the other. I like these people I work with and don't think they are bad people... I just do not understand the rationale. Why can't they have the Christmas Spirit all year?
Another thing is immigration. how often do we hear about that? These people come from a place where poor is almost incomprehensible to most of us. Does it matter that they come from another place that is defined by imaginary lines on a map? I am more than grateful that I won the birth lottery and ended up being born here, in California, rather than at the Guatemalan/Mexico border. Just because they have a different citizenship than me, doesn't make them a lesser person than I am.
I'm not a Christian. I do not attend any churches. I try to follow the teaching of Jesus, but do not buy into all of that stuff about Him being responsible for MY sins. He is my teacher, not my Saviour.
Maybe my problem is my perspective... I don't care how people get themselves into bad situations and just see them as people needing a hand.

I try and help people out when I can, as far a churches go I have been to a few and have never heard anyone complain about people down on their luck...not to say it does not happen I just have not heard it and if I did I would probably never attend that church again, I like to treat people as would like them to treat me and if they needed something that I could help with I usually will.
I'm not saying that I have it dialed in my faith,I'm still learning.



Godfather.

Jason P

Cosmo wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I try my best Cosmo.

Godfather.

...
I'm just curious... and I'm not making any judgements... and my comments are made in general terms and not directed at you.
But, there are a lot of people who are Christian, yet openly express distain for people who have been dealt a shitty hand, whether by their own decisions or circumstances that are out of their control.
For example, Welfare. People on Welfare and/or Food Stamps are often the target. I understand that there is fraud and I think it needs to be addressed and corrected, but I often hear so much hatred in the words of people when speaking about welfare in general... that whole attitude about free hand-outs and all. I believe that the strong should help the weak, not kick them aside.

I think some view the welfare system as the government perpetuating a problem instead of helping. Most conservative Christians I know think welfare needs to be more selective yet they spend good chunks of time involved in church projects that help the needy and sick. My best friend is a hard-core conservative yet he spends two weeks of his vacation time each year traveling to Peru to help build orphanages.

It's not that anyone hates poor people. But when generations of families remain entrenched in the welfare system, is it helping or hurting them?

Cosmo

Jason P wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I try my best Cosmo.

Godfather.

...
I'm just curious... and I'm not making any judgements... and my comments are made in general terms and not directed at you.
But, there are a lot of people who are Christian, yet openly express distain for people who have been dealt a shitty hand, whether by their own decisions or circumstances that are out of their control.
For example, Welfare. People on Welfare and/or Food Stamps are often the target. I understand that there is fraud and I think it needs to be addressed and corrected, but I often hear so much hatred in the words of people when speaking about welfare in general... that whole attitude about free hand-outs and all. I believe that the strong should help the weak, not kick them aside.

I think some view the welfare system as the government perpetuating a problem instead of helping. Most conservative Christians I know think welfare needs to be more selective yet they spend good chunks of time involved in church projects that help the needy and sick. My best friend is a hard-core conservative yet he spends two weeks of his vacation time each year traveling to Peru to help build orphanages.

It's not that anyone hates poor people. But when generations of families remain entrenched in the welfare system, is it helping or hurting them?

....
Thanx. I guess it isn't so much a matter of hate (except in the case of the undocumented workers... that is usually expressed with hate) of the poor... more of a case of indifference towards them. You know, that whole, 'Get a job' mentality. I don't think that people strive to live below the poverty level... that no one makes it a goal to be poor enough to get food stamps... shit just happens and that's where they end up.
That is kind of the point I am making... I have no place to say who is a good Christian and who is not. My co-workers are nice people... they go to church and voluenteer and all of that stuff you associate with 'being Christian'. I simply do not understand the logic or rationale or justification used to pass judgement on some poor single mother of three... except during Christmas time. Charity is not supposed to be done to make the giver feel good about himself, it's supposed to be done because there is another human in need of it.
Well... leastwise... that's what Jesus teaches me.