I agree to a point, however, I think that instead of saying that God is fallible you could simply assert he(?) decided to go a different path. Not necessarily that the first was "wrong" but that he decided to choose another path...hard to say...I mean, that certainly cannot be the only issue you have with christianity or any religion in general, they all seem like following magic, however that is what separates them and their followers, is the belief in the unknown, or faith.
Your thoughts are in the right place, but look at it like this: God, despite changing His mind, is still infallible. You live your life following what God currently wants, and then, mere moments before you die, God decides to switch directions and rules up again. So now, you spent an entire lifetime serving God, but, hey, now you're not serving His will anymore, and given His track record, He's probably not having it. Thus, you're going to be eternally punished. But hey, He still loves you.
Doesn't seem to make any sense. In fact, the idea of an invisible guy who controls everything doesn't really have much logic behind it to begin with.
If I can be blunt here, perhaps "security" being handled by an outlaw group that isn't bound by the limits of law enforcement is a good idea.
Then you're no better than the members of the WBC.
They should be put in harm's way because their opinions offend people who harbor different opinions. What kind of people who feel that way can call themselves civilized with a straight face?
1. They are doing more then offering their opinions (which they have the right to do)...they are disrupting a somber event that represents a huge tragedy.
2. They shouldn't be put in harms way, but they should be put on notice that their actions are inappropriate, and won't be tolerated.
I give this group a ton of credit for standing up for what the Bible ACTUALLY predominately preaches (hatred, discrimination, passing judgment, etc.). They have the courage to be true Christians in a society concerned about convenience and aesthetics and charades. They're more consistent with the God of Moses than 99% of Christians are.
That being said, I think they're scientifically illiterate, intellectual dwarfs who are sick in the head and completely useless as human beings. But, the more religious people generally are, the more mentally weak they tend to be. These guys are the cream of the crap.
this "religious people are ignorant" argument is... well, ignorant. it's a classic "you don't agree with me so you must be dumb" argument which is completely useless. there are plenty of people who are ignorant; religious, atheist, agnostic, etc. at the same time, there are plenty of people who are intellectual giants; religious, atheist, agnostic, etc.
Would you ever challenge the assertion (or at least its implications) that suicide bombers and arab terrorists in general were not "real Muslims"? Then why do you feel the need to challenge this assertion about "real Christians"?
...
I am not qualified to make that judgement call... to who is a good Muslim and who is a bad one. If I fully understood the diety that underlies that religion, then, I'd be able to tell you.
I can tell you that terrorists display horrible behaviour and they are horrible examples of Human Beings... but, I am not tasked to grade the validity of religious followers.
That aside, I'll attempt to answer some of your questions...
Yes, "real Christians" consider homosexuality to be a sin. However, the extent to which homosexuals have been vilified is not necessarily a "real Christian" theme. I mean, it's not even in the 10 Commandments, so I'm not real sure about how "bad" (to put it mundanely) a sin homosexuality is.
I may not have many posts, but I've been on this board a long time. I can't remember a single post where anyone said al Quaeda speaks for all of Islam. I'm sure there are people here who are less tolerant of Islam than you, but that's not quite the same thing.
Anyhow, we can at least agree that Phelps is a moron and a sonofabitch..
...
Again... my point is... who gets to decide who is a 'Real Christian' and who is not? From one standpoint, Rev. Phelps is said to be a bad Christian, but from his point of view, he is following fundamental teachings of the Christian church. I think people feel better when they try to distance the ones on the extreme ends of the religious scales from their own personal beliefs... it makes people feel better the say Rev. Phelps is not a Christian... even though they harbor similar, yet not so vile, viewpoints. That way, it makes it easier to say you are against Gay Marriage because homosexuality is an abomination, according to the Bible... and pretend not be a distant relative to Rev. Phelps.
And what is the criteria of a 'Real Christian'? Do real Christians follow the 10 Commandments? What about that one about working on Sunday? And on homosexuality... what is the stance of Real Christians?
Point being... unless you are Jesus... you can't be the one who decides who is Real or Good and who is not, right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Again... my point is... who gets to decide who is a 'Real Christian' and who is not? From one standpoint, Rev. Phelps is said to be a bad Christian, but from his point of view, he is following fundamental teachings of the Christian church. I think people feel better when they try to distance the ones on the extreme ends of the religious scales from their own personal beliefs... it makes people feel better the say Rev. Phelps is not a Christian... even though they harbor similar, yet not so vile, viewpoints. That way, it makes it easier to say you are against Gay Marriage because homosexuality is an abomination, according to the Bible... and pretend not be a distant relative to Rev. Phelps.
And what is the criteria of a 'Real Christian'? Do real Christians follow the 10 Commandments? What about that one about working on Sunday? And on homosexuality... what is the stance of Real Christians?
Point being... unless you are Jesus... you can't be the one who decides who is Real or Good and who is not, right?
the trouble with this "from his point of view" reasoning is it can be applied to loughner (the shooter)... from his point of view he was doing the right thing. same with terrorists, or anyone else for that matter.
the trouble with saying rev phelps actions are in line with Christian teachings is that in the entire Bible there are 3 passages which address homosexuality. on the other hand there are COUNTLESS passages which instruct us to LOVE one another, so in my estimation God (and Christianity) is far more concerned with how we treat and love one another than anyone's homosexual lifestyle. what rev phelps is doing is not done in or out of love for people, that makes his actions less than Christian, in my book.
the trouble with this "from his point of view" reasoning is it can be applied to loughner (the shooter)... from his point of view he was doing the right thing. same with terrorists, or anyone else for that matter.
the trouble with saying rev phelps actions are in line with Christian teachings is that in the entire Bible there are 3 passages which address homosexuality. on the other hand there are COUNTLESS passages which instruct us to LOVE one another, so in my estimation God (and Christianity) is far more concerned with how we treat and love one another than anyone's homosexual lifestyle. what rev phelps is doing is not done in or out of love for people, that makes his actions less than Christian, in my book.
...
The trouble with it is this... there is no authority who gets to be the one who says what is good and what is bad. Yes, Phelps and Loughner may see themselves and their actions in the 'right', but that does not make it true... and conversely, you seeing is as wrong is not the absolute truth. Phelps and Loughner are wrong when applied within the boundaries of human descency and laws against murder... but, when 'faith' and 'belief' are the only constraints... all bets are off.
Even though Homosexuality is only mentioned in the Bible 3 times... God creating Adam only appears once. What does that mean? It has nothing to do with the number of times something is mentioned... is it? Christians STILL do not approve of homosexuality, otherwise, they would not be quoting Biblical scripture as points in the debate. They disapprove of homosexuality, same as Phelps... for the same REASONS as Phelps... they just disapprove at a much lower volume.
...
And yes... 'In your book'... according to you. Are you the authority and the one tasked to define who is a Real Christian and who is not? My guess is, your answer will be 'No'.
That is the point I am trying to make.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I have a question...Regarding the term, 'Real Christian'. Who gets to decide who is a 'real' Christian... and who isn't?...What is a 'Real Christian', anyway?
I recently watched the t.v series 'Jamie's American Road Trip' - Jamie Oliver - and whilst he was in New York he met up with a Latino fella - Mexican I think - who worked during the day as a bus driver, and by night he cooked and delivered food for approx 75 homeless people. He provided this food free of charge and paid for it all out of his own pocket. He was a Christian - or Catholic (Mexican's are mostly Catholic right?) and he did this deed without any fanfare or chest beating.
He's what I regard as a Christian. How many people are there like him in the U.S? I bet you could count them on one hand.
...
The trouble with it is this... there is no authority who gets to be the one who says what is good and what is bad. Yes, Phelps and Loughner may see themselves and their actions in the 'right', but that does not make it true...
and conversely, you seeing is as wrong is not the absolute truth.
are you suggesting that there are no absolute truths (which is an absolute truth), or just my belief that their behavior is wrong is not an absolute truth? i'm not super clear on this point.
Phelps and Loughner are wrong when applied within the boundaries of human descency and laws against murder... but, when 'faith' and 'belief' are the only constraints... all bets are off.
i never meant to suggest that that faith and belief are the only constraints which make their behavior detestable, my apologies.
Even though Homosexuality is only mentioned in the Bible 3 times... God creating Adam only appears once. What does that mean? It has nothing to do with the number of times something is mentioned... is it?
the story of God creating Adam is not told as instruction on how to live, where the mention of homosexuality and loving others is meant as instruction. this is comparing apples and oranges. with that in mind i believe it is very significant that so little time is spent instructing us on homosexuality, and so much time is spent instructing us to love one another.
Christians STILL do not approve of homosexuality, otherwise, they would not be quoting Biblical scripture as points in the debate. They disapprove of homosexuality, same as Phelps... for the same REASONS as Phelps... they just disapprove at a much lower volume.
i completely agree with you here, but i believe for most Christians the choice to "lower the volume", or choose much more loving ways to live out their beliefs, is a choice made out of love, where phelps is acting in anger.
...
And yes... 'In your book'... according to you. Are you the authority and the one tasked to define who is a Real Christian and who is not? My guess is, your answer will be 'No'.
That is the point I am trying to make.
again, i agree with you, i am NOT the authority on real christians, though to be fair i don't think i've used the phrase. however, i can see that phelps behavior is not consistent with the behavior of Christ.
i'm not sure what the point of the pictures is, even as a Christian i'm with the guy on the right, the "Christians" in the photo are exactly what i'm speaking against.
Post edited by samsonite on
grace and peace
0
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
I find what these guys do disgusting, however I don't like the idea of legislating free speech.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I give this group a ton of credit for standing up for what the Bible ACTUALLY predominately preaches (hatred, discrimination, passing judgment, etc.). They have the courage to be true Christians in a society concerned about convenience and aesthetics and charades. They're more consistent with the God of Moses than 99% of Christians are.
That being said, I think they're scientifically illiterate, intellectual dwarfs who are sick in the head and completely useless as human beings. But, the more religious people generally are, the more mentally weak they tend to be. These guys are the cream of the crap.
I have a question...Regarding the term, 'Real Christian'. Who gets to decide who is a 'real' Christian... and who isn't?...What is a 'Real Christian', anyway?
I recently watched the t.v series 'Jamie's American Road Trip' - Jamie Oliver - and whilst he was in New York he met up with a Latino fella - Mexican I think - who worked during the day as a bus driver, and by night he cooked and delivered food for approx 75 homeless people. He provided this food free of charge and paid for it all out of his own pocket. He was a Christian - or Catholic (Mexican's are mostly Catholic right?) and he did this deed without any fanfare or chest beating.
He's what I regard as a Christian. How many people are there like him in the U.S? I bet you could count them on one hand.
Touching story about the bus driver dude. Naturally you had to find a way to use it to bash Americans.
In terms of dollars or dollar-value donated, Americans are the most chartiable citizenry on the planet. Also (in 2006), 65% of families making less than 100k/year gave some part of their income away. ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19409188/ ). Stats aren't as moving as your little story, but the fact is your statement about "people like him in the US" is fairly ignorant.
I have a question...Regarding the term, 'Real Christian'. Who gets to decide who is a 'real' Christian... and who isn't?...What is a 'Real Christian', anyway?
I recently watched the t.v series 'Jamie's American Road Trip' - Jamie Oliver - and whilst he was in New York he met up with a Latino fella - Mexican I think - who worked during the day as a bus driver, and by night he cooked and delivered food for approx 75 homeless people. He provided this food free of charge and paid for it all out of his own pocket. He was a Christian - or Catholic (Mexican's are mostly Catholic right?) and he did this deed without any fanfare or chest beating.
He's what I regard as a Christian. How many people are there like him in the U.S? I bet you could count them on one hand.
Come on now, Byrnzie. Since they do it without fanfare, Christian or not, just good human beings, I'll bet there are more than a handful. They're all around us...just not on the News to sell toothpaste.
I have a question...Regarding the term, 'Real Christian'. Who gets to decide who is a 'real' Christian... and who isn't?...What is a 'Real Christian', anyway?
I recently watched the t.v series 'Jamie's American Road Trip' - Jamie Oliver - and whilst he was in New York he met up with a Latino fella - Mexican I think - who worked during the day as a bus driver, and by night he cooked and delivered food for approx 75 homeless people. He provided this food free of charge and paid for it all out of his own pocket. He was a Christian - or Catholic (Mexican's are mostly Catholic right?) and he did this deed without any fanfare or chest beating.
He's what I regard as a Christian. How many people are there like him in the U.S? I bet you could count them on one hand.
As a Christian, I've said a million times, the biggest detriment to Christianity is.....Christians. These people sit high upon their thrown, looking down on what they perceive to be the dredge of society. Homosexuality? They see it as vile, disgusting, perverse and they do everything in their power to distance themselves, condemn and chastise these people. If they think for ONE SINGLE SECOND that Jesus Christ would not walk among homosexuals, interact, and show them love and kindness they are absolutely 1,000,000% WRONG! Doing anything other than that, is passing judgment where we have NO authority to do so. Aside from loving God, Jesus specifically says (according to scripture) to "Love your neighbor as yourself". It's not "love your neighbor as yourself unless they......" When it comes to sin, ALL sin is bad in the eyes of God. It doesn't matter if you've gone on a killing spree or you've been spreading lies about your neighbor. Humans are the only ones that assign grades of severity when it comes to sin. So I can say with absolute confidence that these people (including myself), who beat their chest and say "well I'm a Christian..." have their own darkness inside of them, it's just a convenience for them to look at the faults of others to take their eyes off their own problems.
When it comes to Old Testament and New Testament, Jesus ushered in what I call God 2.0. People take this as an insult, and that's fine, because it's not meant to be. Look at it this way....how many people are still using Windows 3.1? That version of Windows catered to a different generation of computer users. Now with all of the complexities of the Internet, and enhanced capabilities of software, and also with the increased level of hacking and computer related attacks, updated software had to be implemented to meet the changing dynamics within the industry. It's the same way with the Bible. You have an older, more archaic way of thinking that pertained to the people of that time. Even at the time of Jesus, the Old Testament was over 1,500 years old, and the church leaders had corrupted themselves and become just as power hungry and money grubbing as many are today. That is why Jesus was crucified, because He spoke out against these leaders, and they feared they would lose that power as Jesus' influence spread. They would do anything to hang on to that power. Their greed blinded them to the knowledge that they had been dedicating their lives to understanding. They were waiting for a Messiah to come at any moment, and even though Jesus fulfilled over 100 prophesies from the Old Testament, their corruption prevented them from seeing this. They just wanted Him dead as quickly as possible.
Me personally, I use the Old Testament for historical reference. Jesus didn't necessarily throw out the Law of Moses, He just created a new covenant between God and humans. One that allows us to have a more personal relationship with Him. This doesn't mean the first covenant was flawed, but it was meant for a different group of people.
Touching story about the bus driver dude. Naturally you had to find a way to use it to bash Americans.
In terms of dollars or dollar-value donated, Americans are the most chartiable citizenry on the planet. Also (in 2006), 65% of families making less than 100k/year gave some part of their income away. ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19409188/ ). Stats aren't as moving as your little story, but the fact is your statement about "people like him in the US" is fairly ignorant.
in total dollars - yes, americans are the most charitable mainly because of the population ... but as a % of income per person ... americans are 19th ...
"socialist" countries are at the top ... ... this is not meant to bash americans but to highlight that people who live with socialist tendencies are more likely to give ...
As a Christian, I've said a million times, the biggest detriment to Christianity is.....Christians. These people sit high upon their thrown, looking down on what they perceive to be the dredge of society. Homosexuality? They see it as vile, disgusting, perverse and they do everything in their power to distance themselves, condemn and chastise these people. If they think for ONE SINGLE SECOND that Jesus Christ would not walk among homosexuals, interact, and show them love and kindness they are absolutely 1,000,000% WRONG! Doing anything other than that, is passing judgment where we have NO authority to do so. Aside from loving God, Jesus specifically says (according to scripture) to "Love your neighbor as yourself". It's not "love your neighbor as yourself unless they......" When it comes to sin, ALL sin is bad in the eyes of God. It doesn't matter if you've gone on a killing spree or you've been spreading lies about your neighbor. Humans are the only ones that assign grades of severity when it comes to sin. So I can say with absolute confidence that these people (including myself), who beat their chest and say "well I'm a Christian..." have their own darkness inside of them, it's just a convenience for them to look at the faults of others to take their eyes off their own problems.
When it comes to Old Testament and New Testament, Jesus ushered in what I call God 2.0. People take this as an insult, and that's fine, because it's not meant to be. Look at it this way....how many people are still using Windows 3.1? That version of Windows catered to a different generation of computer users. Now with all of the complexities of the Internet, and enhanced capabilities of software, and also with the increased level of hacking and computer related attacks, updated software had to be implemented to meet the changing dynamics within the industry. It's the same way with the Bible. You have an older, more archaic way of thinking that pertained to the people of that time. Even at the time of Jesus, the Old Testament was over 1,500 years old, and the church leaders had corrupted themselves and become just as power hungry and money grubbing as many are today. That is why Jesus was crucified, because He spoke out against these leaders, and they feared they would lose that power as Jesus' influence spread. They would do anything to hang on to that power. Their greed blinded them to the knowledge that they had been dedicating their lives to understanding. They were waiting for a Messiah to come at any moment, and even though Jesus fulfilled over 100 prophesies from the Old Testament, their corruption prevented them from seeing this. They just wanted Him dead as quickly as possible.
Me personally, I use the Old Testament for historical reference. Jesus didn't necessarily throw out the Law of Moses, He just created a new covenant between God and humans. One that allows us to have a more personal relationship with Him. This doesn't mean the first covenant was flawed, but it was meant for a different group of people.
As a Christian, I've said a million times, the biggest detriment to Christianity is.....Christians. These people sit high upon their thrown, looking down on what they perceive to be the dredge of society. Homosexuality? They see it as vile, disgusting, perverse and they do everything in their power to distance themselves, condemn and chastise these people. If they think for ONE SINGLE SECOND that Jesus Christ would not walk among homosexuals, interact, and show them love and kindness they are absolutely 1,000,000% WRONG! Doing anything other than that, is passing judgment where we have NO authority to do so. Aside from loving God, Jesus specifically says (according to scripture) to "Love your neighbor as yourself". It's not "love your neighbor as yourself unless they......" When it comes to sin, ALL sin is bad in the eyes of God. It doesn't matter if you've gone on a killing spree or you've been spreading lies about your neighbor. Humans are the only ones that assign grades of severity when it comes to sin. So I can say with absolute confidence that these people (including myself), who beat their chest and say "well I'm a Christian..." have their own darkness inside of them, it's just a convenience for them to look at the faults of others to take their eyes off their own problems.
When it comes to Old Testament and New Testament, Jesus ushered in what I call God 2.0. People take this as an insult, and that's fine, because it's not meant to be. Look at it this way....how many people are still using Windows 3.1? That version of Windows catered to a different generation of computer users. Now with all of the complexities of the Internet, and enhanced capabilities of software, and also with the increased level of hacking and computer related attacks, updated software had to be implemented to meet the changing dynamics within the industry. It's the same way with the Bible. You have an older, more archaic way of thinking that pertained to the people of that time. Even at the time of Jesus, the Old Testament was over 1,500 years old, and the church leaders had corrupted themselves and become just as power hungry and money grubbing as many are today. That is why Jesus was crucified, because He spoke out against these leaders, and they feared they would lose that power as Jesus' influence spread. They would do anything to hang on to that power. Their greed blinded them to the knowledge that they had been dedicating their lives to understanding. They were waiting for a Messiah to come at any moment, and even though Jesus fulfilled over 100 prophesies from the Old Testament, their corruption prevented them from seeing this. They just wanted Him dead as quickly as possible.
Me personally, I use the Old Testament for historical reference. Jesus didn't necessarily throw out the Law of Moses, He just created a new covenant between God and humans. One that allows us to have a more personal relationship with Him. This doesn't mean the first covenant was flawed, but it was meant for a different group of people.
I have a question...Regarding the term, 'Real Christian'. Who gets to decide who is a 'real' Christian... and who isn't?...What is a 'Real Christian', anyway?
I recently watched the t.v series 'Jamie's American Road Trip' - Jamie Oliver - and whilst he was in New York he met up with a Latino fella - Mexican I think - who worked during the day as a bus driver, and by night he cooked and delivered food for approx 75 homeless people. He provided this food free of charge and paid for it all out of his own pocket. He was a Christian - or Catholic (Mexican's are mostly Catholic right?) and he did this deed without any fanfare or chest beating.
He's what I regard as a Christian. How many people are there like him in the U.S? I bet you could count them on one hand.
Haha, I disagree with you here Byrnzie. I think the 'average American' (god I hate that phrase) is actually, more often than not, well-intentioned, albeit often a bit misguided thanks to... well, everything, from media, to consumerist culture, and blah blah blah. How many actually take time out of their day like Mr Mexican Bus Driver, unfortunately no where near enough, but I think you'd be surprised by some of the Americans you meet - I know I've been, living here and all.
As for the constant back and forth between what makes a Christian a 'real' Christian - I honestly think you guys are complicating this a lot. The point of saying that someone is not a 'real' Christian does not judge his intentions - whether he thinks what he is doing is right and to further Christianity's 'aims'. The point is to say 'this person does not represent Christianity.' Similar to how Muslims say the 9/11 hijackers or whatever do not represent Islam. What this means is if anyone takes a second to study the actual religion, they will find the entire religion a lot different than someone would if they just pick out a few passages that suits the discussion in their view (such as some random mistranslated ayah from the Qur'an that talks about killing infidels or some random verse from the Bible about homosexuality being a sin). In the context of the entire religion however, people will see something entirely different and it's not so simple as just taking a verse out of context. For example, many people don't know the various arguments regarding homosexuality that take place in religion. As in, is it ok to be attracted to the same sex if you don't act on it? can you persecute those homosexuals who are not religious? I mean, it makes no sense to say you can persecute those who act on their homosexuality, but not others who violate other sins in the religion - and that's when you cross into a whole range of greater problems. So, in a way you guys are complicating the simple parts of the discussion and simplifying the more complicated parts of it - in my opinion at least. Anyway, just what I thought of when I read your posts.
After revisiting a lot of my Twain info during the discussion about Huck Finn I came across this little gem
when he implored Christian missionaries to "leave China, come home, and convert these Christians."
couldn't be said better by anyone alive today... It is strange to think that there is so much difference between people under one umbrella of beliefs. I just don't understand it. It isn't exclusive to Christianity however
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
After revisiting a lot of my Twain info during the discussion about Huck Finn I came across this little gem
when he implored Christian missionaries to "leave China, come home, and convert these Christians."
couldn't be said better by anyone alive today... It is strange to think that there is so much difference between people under one umbrella of beliefs. I just don't understand it. It isn't exclusive to Christianity however
There are a lot of different protestant churches out there. Some liberal, some conservative, and some in the middle so I guess there are a lot of interpretations of what it means to be Christian.
Hell, my hometown of 6,000 people has over 40 churches. And that doesn't include the weird isolated "trailer" churches that dot the countryside.
Touching story about the bus driver dude. Naturally you had to find a way to use it to bash Americans.
In terms of dollars or dollar-value donated, Americans are the most chartiable citizenry on the planet. Also (in 2006), 65% of families making less than 100k/year gave some part of their income away. ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19409188/ ). Stats aren't as moving as your little story, but the fact is your statement about "people like him in the US" is fairly ignorant.
in total dollars - yes, americans are the most charitable mainly because of the population ... but as a % of income per person ... americans are 19th ...
"socialist" countries are at the top ... ... this is not meant to bash americans but to highlight that people who live with socialist tendencies are more likely to give ...
Touching story about the bus driver dude. Naturally you had to find a way to use it to bash Americans.
In terms of dollars or dollar-value donated, Americans are the most chartiable citizenry on the planet. Also (in 2006), 65% of families making less than 100k/year gave some part of their income away. ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19409188/ ). Stats aren't as moving as your little story, but the fact is your statement about "people like him in the US" is fairly ignorant.
in total dollars - yes, americans are the most charitable mainly because of the population ... but as a % of income per person ... americans are 19th ...
"socialist" countries are at the top ... ... this is not meant to bash americans but to highlight that people who live with socialist tendencies are more likely to give ...
You beat me to it!!
Who cares? Are we really going worry about who gives what specifically?
Bottom line is there are plenty of people all over that do good things for others and Byrnzie's post was way off the mark and unnecessary.
Let's get back to the point we can all agree on...these Westboro Baptist church people are crazy evil.
I have a question...Regarding the term, 'Real Christian'. Who gets to decide who is a 'real' Christian... and who isn't?...What is a 'Real Christian', anyway?
I recently watched the t.v series 'Jamie's American Road Trip' - Jamie Oliver - and whilst he was in New York he met up with a Latino fella - Mexican I think - who worked during the day as a bus driver, and by night he cooked and delivered food for approx 75 homeless people. He provided this food free of charge and paid for it all out of his own pocket. He was a Christian - or Catholic (Mexican's are mostly Catholic right?) and he did this deed without any fanfare or chest beating.
He's what I regard as a Christian. How many people are there like him in the U.S? I bet you could count them on one hand.
Haha, I disagree with you here Byrnzie. I think the 'average American' (god I hate that phrase) is actually, more often than not, well-intentioned, albeit often a bit misguided thanks to... well, everything, from media, to consumerist culture, and blah blah blah. How many actually take time out of their day like Mr Mexican Bus Driver, unfortunately no where near enough, but I think you'd be surprised by some of the Americans you meet - I know I've been, living here and all.
As for the constant back and forth between what makes a Christian a 'real' Christian - I honestly think you guys are complicating this a lot. The point of saying that someone is not a 'real' Christian does not judge his intentions - whether he thinks what he is doing is right and to further Christianity's 'aims'. The point is to say 'this person does not represent Christianity.' Similar to how Muslims say the 9/11 hijackers or whatever do not represent Islam. What this means is if anyone takes a second to study the actual religion, they will find the entire religion a lot different than someone would if they just pick out a few passages that suits the discussion in their view (such as some random mistranslated ayah from the Qur'an that talks about killing infidels or some random verse from the Bible about homosexuality being a sin). In the context of the entire religion however, people will see something entirely different and it's not so simple as just taking a verse out of context. For example, many people don't know the various arguments regarding homosexuality that take place in religion. As in, is it ok to be attracted to the same sex if you don't act on it? can you persecute those homosexuals who are not religious? I mean, it makes no sense to say you can persecute those who act on their homosexuality, but not others who violate other sins in the religion - and that's when you cross into a whole range of greater problems. So, in a way you guys are complicating the simple parts of the discussion and simplifying the more complicated parts of it - in my opinion at least. Anyway, just what I thought of when I read your posts.
great point! ...and quite similar to my original post/point.
these people are to Christians what the 9-11 terrorists are to Muslims; a small minority of extremists which make for great headlines. obviously this total lack of love and respect is infuriating to ALL sane people, including 99% of Christians! as a Christian let me say they DO NOT represent me, or the God i believe in.
As a Christian, I've said a million times, the biggest detriment to Christianity is.....Christians. These people sit high upon their thrown, looking down on what they perceive to be the dredge of society. Homosexuality? They see it as vile, disgusting, perverse and they do everything in their power to distance themselves, condemn and chastise these people. If they think for ONE SINGLE SECOND that Jesus Christ would not walk among homosexuals, interact, and show them love and kindness they are absolutely 1,000,000% WRONG! Doing anything other than that, is passing judgment where we have NO authority to do so. Aside from loving God, Jesus specifically says (according to scripture) to "Love your neighbor as yourself". It's not "love your neighbor as yourself unless they......" When it comes to sin, ALL sin is bad in the eyes of God. It doesn't matter if you've gone on a killing spree or you've been spreading lies about your neighbor. Humans are the only ones that assign grades of severity when it comes to sin. So I can say with absolute confidence that these people (including myself), who beat their chest and say "well I'm a Christian..." have their own darkness inside of them, it's just a convenience for them to look at the faults of others to take their eyes off their own problems.
When it comes to Old Testament and New Testament, Jesus ushered in what I call God 2.0. People take this as an insult, and that's fine, because it's not meant to be. Look at it this way....how many people are still using Windows 3.1? That version of Windows catered to a different generation of computer users. Now with all of the complexities of the Internet, and enhanced capabilities of software, and also with the increased level of hacking and computer related attacks, updated software had to be implemented to meet the changing dynamics within the industry. It's the same way with the Bible. You have an older, more archaic way of thinking that pertained to the people of that time. Even at the time of Jesus, the Old Testament was over 1,500 years old, and the church leaders had corrupted themselves and become just as power hungry and money grubbing as many are today. That is why Jesus was crucified, because He spoke out against these leaders, and they feared they would lose that power as Jesus' influence spread. They would do anything to hang on to that power. Their greed blinded them to the knowledge that they had been dedicating their lives to understanding. They were waiting for a Messiah to come at any moment, and even though Jesus fulfilled over 100 prophesies from the Old Testament, their corruption prevented them from seeing this. They just wanted Him dead as quickly as possible.
Me personally, I use the Old Testament for historical reference. Jesus didn't necessarily throw out the Law of Moses, He just created a new covenant between God and humans. One that allows us to have a more personal relationship with Him. This doesn't mean the first covenant was flawed, but it was meant for a different group of people.
...
My sentiments... exactly.
Christianity would not get such a bad rap if Christians weren't such hypocrites. Take a lesson from Jesus and treat the poor and the lost with compassion, instead of distain and indifference... try reading the Sermon From The Mount, again... learn from it instead of stashing it in memory. Try forgiveness instead of vengence. Try acceptance, rather than disgust.
Nice post.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
Your thoughts are in the right place, but look at it like this: God, despite changing His mind, is still infallible. You live your life following what God currently wants, and then, mere moments before you die, God decides to switch directions and rules up again. So now, you spent an entire lifetime serving God, but, hey, now you're not serving His will anymore, and given His track record, He's probably not having it. Thus, you're going to be eternally punished. But hey, He still loves you.
Doesn't seem to make any sense. In fact, the idea of an invisible guy who controls everything doesn't really have much logic behind it to begin with.
1. They are doing more then offering their opinions (which they have the right to do)...they are disrupting a somber event that represents a huge tragedy.
2. They shouldn't be put in harms way, but they should be put on notice that their actions are inappropriate, and won't be tolerated.
this "religious people are ignorant" argument is... well, ignorant. it's a classic "you don't agree with me so you must be dumb" argument which is completely useless. there are plenty of people who are ignorant; religious, atheist, agnostic, etc. at the same time, there are plenty of people who are intellectual giants; religious, atheist, agnostic, etc.
Godfather.
I am not qualified to make that judgement call... to who is a good Muslim and who is a bad one. If I fully understood the diety that underlies that religion, then, I'd be able to tell you.
I can tell you that terrorists display horrible behaviour and they are horrible examples of Human Beings... but, I am not tasked to grade the validity of religious followers.
...
Again... my point is... who gets to decide who is a 'Real Christian' and who is not? From one standpoint, Rev. Phelps is said to be a bad Christian, but from his point of view, he is following fundamental teachings of the Christian church. I think people feel better when they try to distance the ones on the extreme ends of the religious scales from their own personal beliefs... it makes people feel better the say Rev. Phelps is not a Christian... even though they harbor similar, yet not so vile, viewpoints. That way, it makes it easier to say you are against Gay Marriage because homosexuality is an abomination, according to the Bible... and pretend not be a distant relative to Rev. Phelps.
And what is the criteria of a 'Real Christian'? Do real Christians follow the 10 Commandments? What about that one about working on Sunday? And on homosexuality... what is the stance of Real Christians?
Point being... unless you are Jesus... you can't be the one who decides who is Real or Good and who is not, right?
Hail, Hail!!!
the trouble with this "from his point of view" reasoning is it can be applied to loughner (the shooter)... from his point of view he was doing the right thing. same with terrorists, or anyone else for that matter.
the trouble with saying rev phelps actions are in line with Christian teachings is that in the entire Bible there are 3 passages which address homosexuality. on the other hand there are COUNTLESS passages which instruct us to LOVE one another, so in my estimation God (and Christianity) is far more concerned with how we treat and love one another than anyone's homosexual lifestyle. what rev phelps is doing is not done in or out of love for people, that makes his actions less than Christian, in my book.
The trouble with it is this... there is no authority who gets to be the one who says what is good and what is bad. Yes, Phelps and Loughner may see themselves and their actions in the 'right', but that does not make it true... and conversely, you seeing is as wrong is not the absolute truth. Phelps and Loughner are wrong when applied within the boundaries of human descency and laws against murder... but, when 'faith' and 'belief' are the only constraints... all bets are off.
Even though Homosexuality is only mentioned in the Bible 3 times... God creating Adam only appears once. What does that mean? It has nothing to do with the number of times something is mentioned... is it? Christians STILL do not approve of homosexuality, otherwise, they would not be quoting Biblical scripture as points in the debate. They disapprove of homosexuality, same as Phelps... for the same REASONS as Phelps... they just disapprove at a much lower volume.
...
And yes... 'In your book'... according to you. Are you the authority and the one tasked to define who is a Real Christian and who is not? My guess is, your answer will be 'No'.
That is the point I am trying to make.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0S020xbBC1Nv ... _1280.jpeg
Hail, Hail!!!
I recently watched the t.v series 'Jamie's American Road Trip' - Jamie Oliver - and whilst he was in New York he met up with a Latino fella - Mexican I think - who worked during the day as a bus driver, and by night he cooked and delivered food for approx 75 homeless people. He provided this food free of charge and paid for it all out of his own pocket. He was a Christian - or Catholic (Mexican's are mostly Catholic right?) and he did this deed without any fanfare or chest beating.
He's what I regard as a Christian. How many people are there like him in the U.S? I bet you could count them on one hand.
this is exactly my point.
are you suggesting that there are no absolute truths (which is an absolute truth), or just my belief that their behavior is wrong is not an absolute truth? i'm not super clear on this point.
i never meant to suggest that that faith and belief are the only constraints which make their behavior detestable, my apologies.
the story of God creating Adam is not told as instruction on how to live, where the mention of homosexuality and loving others is meant as instruction. this is comparing apples and oranges. with that in mind i believe it is very significant that so little time is spent instructing us on homosexuality, and so much time is spent instructing us to love one another.
i completely agree with you here, but i believe for most Christians the choice to "lower the volume", or choose much more loving ways to live out their beliefs, is a choice made out of love, where phelps is acting in anger.
again, i agree with you, i am NOT the authority on real christians, though to be fair i don't think i've used the phrase. however, i can see that phelps behavior is not consistent with the behavior of Christ.
i'm not sure what the point of the pictures is, even as a Christian i'm with the guy on the right, the "Christians" in the photo are exactly what i'm speaking against.
Kudos to Gov. Jan Brewer, at least she tries to do the right things.
In terms of dollars or dollar-value donated, Americans are the most chartiable citizenry on the planet. Also (in 2006), 65% of families making less than 100k/year gave some part of their income away. ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19409188/ ). Stats aren't as moving as your little story, but the fact is your statement about "people like him in the US" is fairly ignorant.
Come on now, Byrnzie.
I love Jamie Oliver...he's a good man.
How many people are like him in the world?
When it comes to Old Testament and New Testament, Jesus ushered in what I call God 2.0. People take this as an insult, and that's fine, because it's not meant to be. Look at it this way....how many people are still using Windows 3.1? That version of Windows catered to a different generation of computer users. Now with all of the complexities of the Internet, and enhanced capabilities of software, and also with the increased level of hacking and computer related attacks, updated software had to be implemented to meet the changing dynamics within the industry. It's the same way with the Bible. You have an older, more archaic way of thinking that pertained to the people of that time. Even at the time of Jesus, the Old Testament was over 1,500 years old, and the church leaders had corrupted themselves and become just as power hungry and money grubbing as many are today. That is why Jesus was crucified, because He spoke out against these leaders, and they feared they would lose that power as Jesus' influence spread. They would do anything to hang on to that power. Their greed blinded them to the knowledge that they had been dedicating their lives to understanding. They were waiting for a Messiah to come at any moment, and even though Jesus fulfilled over 100 prophesies from the Old Testament, their corruption prevented them from seeing this. They just wanted Him dead as quickly as possible.
Me personally, I use the Old Testament for historical reference. Jesus didn't necessarily throw out the Law of Moses, He just created a new covenant between God and humans. One that allows us to have a more personal relationship with Him. This doesn't mean the first covenant was flawed, but it was meant for a different group of people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... _countries
in total dollars - yes, americans are the most charitable mainly because of the population ... but as a % of income per person ... americans are 19th ...
"socialist" countries are at the top ...
This is how I see it. Great post.
+1
As for the constant back and forth between what makes a Christian a 'real' Christian - I honestly think you guys are complicating this a lot. The point of saying that someone is not a 'real' Christian does not judge his intentions - whether he thinks what he is doing is right and to further Christianity's 'aims'. The point is to say 'this person does not represent Christianity.' Similar to how Muslims say the 9/11 hijackers or whatever do not represent Islam. What this means is if anyone takes a second to study the actual religion, they will find the entire religion a lot different than someone would if they just pick out a few passages that suits the discussion in their view (such as some random mistranslated ayah from the Qur'an that talks about killing infidels or some random verse from the Bible about homosexuality being a sin). In the context of the entire religion however, people will see something entirely different and it's not so simple as just taking a verse out of context. For example, many people don't know the various arguments regarding homosexuality that take place in religion. As in, is it ok to be attracted to the same sex if you don't act on it? can you persecute those homosexuals who are not religious? I mean, it makes no sense to say you can persecute those who act on their homosexuality, but not others who violate other sins in the religion - and that's when you cross into a whole range of greater problems. So, in a way you guys are complicating the simple parts of the discussion and simplifying the more complicated parts of it - in my opinion at least. Anyway, just what I thought of when I read your posts.
when he implored Christian missionaries to "leave China, come home, and convert these Christians."
couldn't be said better by anyone alive today... It is strange to think that there is so much difference between people under one umbrella of beliefs. I just don't understand it. It isn't exclusive to Christianity however
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Hell, my hometown of 6,000 people has over 40 churches. And that doesn't include the weird isolated "trailer" churches that dot the countryside.
Who cares? Are we really going worry about who gives what specifically?
Bottom line is there are plenty of people all over that do good things for others and Byrnzie's post was way off the mark and unnecessary.
Let's get back to the point we can all agree on...these Westboro Baptist church people are crazy evil.
great point! ...and quite similar to my original post/point.
My sentiments... exactly.
Christianity would not get such a bad rap if Christians weren't such hypocrites. Take a lesson from Jesus and treat the poor and the lost with compassion, instead of distain and indifference... try reading the Sermon From The Mount, again... learn from it instead of stashing it in memory. Try forgiveness instead of vengence. Try acceptance, rather than disgust.
Nice post.
Hail, Hail!!!