What's the matter, are you having a guilty conscious attack on how some of your hate filled tone could have fuel this rampage? Maybe its YOU that's getting off on that so-called 'bit of excitement' over the slaughter of these people, How's your hand!!
--Its weak minded people like YOU within our society, who can't separate a person from their politics that leads to mass shootings
-weak minded people who claim to be disgusted with the murders but understand the 'why' factor
-weak minded people who turn these killers into heroes because they 'identify' with their plight.
What would have been our reaction as society
-if this person had been a Muslim, we would call it an act of terrorism
-if this person had been a Latino, we would be rounding them up like cattle
-if this person had been black, we'd be in our pickup trucks.
because he's a white male, he just another sick individual who committed murder and mayhem for which society can some how relate to him, as if he is someone acting like an asshole in a bar. But then again, my guess is that you would find an excuse to justified the next freak with a gun who uses they're morbid sense of Constitutional morally to slaughter people because that's your turn on not ours.
Please, don't get pissed when you see every little Congressional person with their own security protective service [Xe Services] in your community courtesy of the U.S. Taxpayers because Congress is currently working on a bill that would give them such protection. Too bad it won't cover the non-political citizens that get caught in the cross fire, but what the hell, we as a society 'understand' why they now need this protective service that was created by their own malicious voices..
I can't believe I'm even wasting my time responding to this drivel. Your entire post is nothing short of psychotic. If you think for a single moment that there aren't people on this board who are hoping this guy was some sort of "right winger" (and it seems like you've already made that determination), then you need a serious reality check. If it comes to light, he was some liberal, political radical, then who are you going to blame? The Tea Party? Just because he targeted a Democrat does not mean he's some conservative, Christian, gun wielding, redneck.
Just to address some of your, uh, "points"
1) What's the matter, are you having a guilty conscious attack on how some of your hate filled tone could have fuel this rampage? Not for sure where my "hate filled tone" has reached mainstream media and influenced this monster.
2) --Its weak minded people like YOU within our society, who can't separate a person from their politics that leads to mass shootings
-weak minded people who claim to be disgusted with the murders but understand the 'why' factor
-weak minded people who turn these killers into heroes because they 'identify' with their plight.
There is just so much here that really makes me feel worried for you. Seriously.
-So people that disagree with your point of view, are automatically, "weak minded" and prone to mass shootings? That's interesting. Not to shift too far off topic, but since I don't really pay attention to them, can someone please show me the instances where pundits like Beck and others have suggested violence, or encouraged anyone to take arms? I don't mean some bullshit subliminal message either. Most people I have found that talk about the "violent rhetoric", don't even watch or listen to them. They simply rely on sound bites, or hearsay, or small video clips on sites like Media Matters that are taken out of context. Since it seems to be so prevalent there should be no shortage of examples that can be given.
-I don't see how anyone short of a sick psychopath, could EVER condone an action like this.
-The only heroes in this story are the people who tried to stop this mad man.
What would have been our reaction as society
-if this person had been a Muslim, we would call it an act of terrorism Yes. No matter what the race, it's terrorism. McVeigh was a terrorist just like those fuckers on 9/11. There is no race, or nationality when it comes to assholes who kill innocent people, regardless of their motive. You're other two examples are just ignorant.
because he's a white male, he just another sick individual who committed murder and mayhem for which society can some how relate to him, as if he is someone acting like an asshole in a bar. Uh, no. There's no doubt he's a sick individual, regardless of his skin color. Anyone that can relate to him, should at the very least, receive an extensive psychological evaluation.
Everyone, anyone, please read the above article. We all need to stop defending any of the ideologies, open our eyes, and look through all the muck in our minds that is blocking the true issues here, INNOCENT HUMAN LIVES WERE MAIMED AND KILLED. People of all ages, race, creeds, partisanship, beliefs, morals, denominations, on and on and on. Why do we feel the need to deprecate each other in the name of political alignment? It is immensely disconcerting, to me at least, witnessing our people abscinded amongst our abhorrent rhetoric. STOP, HUG SOMEONE, ANYONE, BE THANKFUL YOU HAVE YOUR LIFE AND THE LOVED ONES AROUND YOU. As grotesque as it is, this could happen anywhere, so why take the time to allow this freakbag infintestimal success in tearing us apart. THROW AWAY ALL DIFFERENCES, AND LETS HELP EACHOTHER PROSPER, TOGETHER!
I hope you all read this in good health, and godspeed fellow Jammers
I tend to wait until the bullshit of the speculatory broadcast media subsides and the facts rise to the surface before forming an opinion or rendering a statement.
It sounds like this shooter was one of these unstable... not very smart... people who have strong political ideas and opinions aimed at our government. You know the type... the one who will criticize the government without understanding how government even works.
Attached to the Tea Party? I don't know... but, my best guess ids he is one who is probably easily influenced and the type who will take what someone says... specifically, someone whom expresses opinions similar to his own, as the truth... and cannot be dissuaded by facts.
Politically motivated? I don't know... but Rep. Giffords was his local representative in congress, thus, his closest link to 'the Government' he hated so much.
...
As for the public discourse that is fueled by cable television, AM Talk Radio and Web Blogs... yeah... I can see it as possibly having some influence on this weak minded person. I mean, when you talk about 'Watering the Tree Of Liberty with the blood of the Patriots', think it is your God given right to bring loaded firearms to Town Hall meetings, feel that if ballots do not get desired results, bullets will and spew rhetoric about not retreating, But reloading... I can see it having an affect on the dimly lit minds of some Americans. It almost makes the act of lashing out at 'the Government'... as a act of Patriotism... failing to see that is is actually an act of Terrorism.
I know... some one will argue the whole 'Marilyn Manson' thing... but, remember... Marilyn Manson is NOT a figure of authority... someone thought of a person in the know... or a political leader. Marilyn Manson is a rock musician... and a bad one at that.
I feel we need to see the person with an opposing political view as an american with an opposing view... and that's it. Not a deadly enemy... not a foriegn agent bent on destroying America... not Satan. Simply... someone that doesn't see things the way you do.
That's all.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
1. It's been said that the shooter read books by Hitler and Karl Marx. I don't know if we can say he was a Tea Party member, a Republican, liberal, etc.
I'm an atheist, and I'm more Christian than those self-deluding morons.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
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In the US, where hate rules at the ballot box, this tragedy has been coming for a long time The shooting of Gabrielle Giffords may lead to the temporary hibernation of rightwing rage, but it is encoded in conservative DNA
It was instructive to read elected Republicans' official statements in response to the Gabrielle Giffords shooting for what they did not say. The House Speaker, John Boehner, said: "An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve. Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society. Our prayers are with congresswoman Giffords, her staff, all who were injured and their families. This is a sad day for our country." Arizona Senator John McCain issued the following: "I am horrified by the violent attack on representative Gabrielle Giffords and many other innocent people by a wicked person who has no sense of justice or compassion. I pray for Gabby and the other victims, and for the repose of the souls of the dead and comfort for their families. Whoever did this, whatever their reason, they are a disgrace to Arizona, this country and the human race."
All well and good, and I have no doubt every word is sincere. But you'll note that they are silent on the question of the violent rhetoric that emanates from the rightwing of American society. You don't have to believe that alleged shooter, Jared Loughner, is a card-carrying Tea Party member (he evidently is not) to see some kind of connection between that violent rhetoric and what happened in Arizona on Saturday.
Is he a nut? Of course he's a nut. By definition, anyone who shoots innocent people like that has a screw loose. But nuts come in many varieties. There are some who think Dick Cheney planned 9/11, others who believe the CIA has installed eavesdropping devices in their fillings, and still others who insist they're the reincarnation of Mary Queen of Scots. So what particular type of nut is Loughner? We don't have a full picture yet. But we have enough of one. His coherent ravings included the conviction that the constitution assured him that "you don't have to accept the federalist laws". He called a female classmate who had an abortion a "terrorist".
In sum, he had political ideas, which not everyone does. Many of them (not all, but most) were right wing. He went to considerable expense and trouble to shoot a high-profile Democrat, at point-blank range right through the brain. What else does one need to know? For anyone to attempt to insist that the violent rhetoric so regularly heard in this country had no likely effect on this young man is to enshroud oneself in dishonesty and denial.
I would like to report to you that my nation is in shock, and that we will work together to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again. Alas, neither of these things is close to true. Of course an event like this is hard to believe in the moment; but in the context of our times, it's really not surprising at all. Last summer, a California man armed himself and set off for San Francisco with the express intent of killing liberals at a nonprofit foundation that had been pilloried by Glenn Beck and others. Only the lucky accident of his arrest en route for drunk driving prevented the mayhem then.
The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence has documented more than two dozen killings by or arrests of rightwing extremists who intended to do serious political violence since 2008. One Tennessee man killed two worshippers at a liberal church, regretting only that he had not been able to ice the 100 liberals named by author Bernard Goldberg as those most responsible for destroying America. Giffords herself received threats after voting for the healthcare reform bill, and shots were fired through the window of her district office. An event like this has been coming for a long time.
As to the future, some things will change, at least for a while. Sarah Palin will be deeply diminished by this. Speaking about the now well-known cross-hairs imagery over the map of Giffords' congressional district on Palin's website, Giffords herself last year expressed concern about "consequences". Palin pooh-poohed this at the time. Her unctuous and hypocritical "prayer" for Giffords and the other victims will mollify only those who think she can do no wrong. But in general, this hastens that blessed day when we no longer have to pay attention to her self-serving lies and idiocies.
Republicans and even Tea Partiers will have the sense – again, for a while – to steer clear of directly gun-related rhetoric. We won't be hearing much in the near term about "second amendment remedies" and insurrection and so forth. But this will be temporary. Guns are simply too central to the mythology of the American right, as is the idea of liberty being wrested from tyrants only at gunpoint. For the American right to stop talking about armed insurrection would be like American liberals dropping the subjects of race and gender. It's too encoded in conservative DNA.
In addition, contemporary American conservatism has been utterly arrested by this ridiculous paranoid fantasy that our government is a tyranny. Here was Republican Congressman Paul Broun of Georgia, speaking in Washington last April on the occasion of the 15th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing: "Fellow patriots, we have a lot of domestic enemies of the constitution, and they're right down the Mall, in the Congress of the United States – and right down Independence Avenue in the White House that belongs to us. It's not about my ability to hunt, which I love to do. It's not about the ability for me to protect my family and property against criminals, which we have the right to do. But it's all about us protecting ourselves from a tyrannical government." The year before, this same Broun singled out then-Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, as one such "domestic enemy of the constitution". He was re-elected last November with 67% of the vote.
This kind of rhetoric will go into hibernation now, but only for a bit. Because not only is it too central to rightwing mythology; it is central to Republican electoral strategy. This is one of those things that no one says, because it can't really and truly be proved forensically, but everyone knows. Get people to hate liberals. Get them to think not only that liberals have ideas for the country that are wrong – get them to believe that liberals despise the country and are actively attempting to hasten its demise. Say progressivism isn't just invalid or even dangerous, but "evil" and a "cancer," as Glenn Beck says. Fear gets people to the ballot box.
Direct responsibility for what happened Saturday? No. Mentally ill people are mentally ill. The Beatles weren't responsible for the messages that Charles Manson heard in their music. But there's a difference. Paul McCartney had no earthly reason to think that an innocent song about a fairground ride (Helter Skelter) would lead a man to commit barbarous acts of murder. Today's Republicans and conservative commentators, however, surely understand the fire they're playing with. But they do it, and a tragedy like Saturday's won't stop them, as long as they can maintain a phoney plausible deniability and as long as hate continues to pay dividends at the ballot box.
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00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
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10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
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Did you see the heroes?
Tears for the heroes too, good tears.
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"Becoming a Bruce fan is like hitting puberty as a musical fan. It's inevitable." - dcfaithful
At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"
Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and didn't have much to say.
"He was like ... 'What do you think of these people who are working for the government and they can't describe what they do?'" one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.
"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," the friend added.
Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case.
To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonsensical and obsessed with how words create reality.
Steeped in mistrust, paranoia
The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: That of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.
"If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem," the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15 in a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with nearly the same question his friends said he posed to Giffords: "What's government if words don't have meaning?"
Loughner had at least one other contact with Giffords. Investigators said they carried out a search warrant at Loughner's home and seized a letter addressed to him from Giffords' congressional stationery in which she thanked him for attending a "Congress on your Corner" event at a mall in Tucson in 2007. Saturday's shooting occurred at a similar event.
Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords" next to what appears to be Loughner's signature. Police say he purchased the Glock pistol used in the attack in November.
Loughner lives with his parents about a five-minute drive from the shootings, in a middle-class neighborhood lined with desert landscaping and palm trees. Sheriff's deputies blocked off much of the street Sunday.
Neighbors said Loughner kept to himself and was often seen walking his dog, almost always wearing a hooded sweat shirt and listening to his iPod.
The New York Times reported that no one came to the door when a reporter called Sunday morning.
Neighbors said they found the Loughner family unpleasant at times, particularly Loughner's father Randy, the Times said.
"Sometimes our trash would be out, and he would come up and yell that the trash stinks," next-door neighbor Anthony Woods, 19, told the Times. "He's very aggressive."
His high school friends said they fell out of touch with Loughner and last spoke to him around March, when one of them was going to set up some bottles in the desert for target practice and Loughner suggested he might come along.
It was unusual — Loughner hadn't expressed an interest in guns before — and his increasingly confrontational behavior was pushing them apart. He would send bizarre text messages, but also break off contact for weeks on end.
"We just started getting sketched out about him," the friend said.
Mental health concerns
Around the same time, Loughner's behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release.
Between February and September, Loughner "had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions," the statement said.
He was suspended in September 2010 after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution.
He withdrew voluntarily the following month, and was told he could return only if, among other things, a mental health professional agreed he did not present a danger, the school said.
It was at the college that Loughner had posed his question to Giffords about government and words, one friend said.
A college spokesman said Giffords often has used school property for open events; a Giffords spokesman said he was not sure at which event the exchange would have taken place.
Loughner's alienation from his friends was gradual.
The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around.
The crew smoked marijuana every day, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.
For a time, Loughner drank heavily, to the point of poisoning himself, the friends said.
Once, during school lunch break as a junior, he downed so much tequila that he came back to class, within five minutes passed out cold, had to be rushed to the hospital and "almost died," one friend said.
New world order
Mistrust of government was Loughner's defining conviction, the friends said.
He believed the U.S. government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.
On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World" — two novels about how authorities control the masses.
Other books in the wide-ranging list included "Mein Kampf," "The Communist Manifesto," "Peter Pan" and Aesop's Fables.
Over time, Loughner became increasingly introspective — what one of the friends described as a "nihilistic rut."
An ardent atheist, he began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the government and the monotony of modern life.
"He didn't want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity," one friend said.
The friends said Loughner told anyone who would listen that the world we see does not exist, that words have no meaning — and that the only way to derive meaning was during sleep.
Loughner began obsessing about a practice called lucid dreaming, in which people try to actively control their sleeping world.
Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not engage in political discussions — in fact, he didn't talk much at all, and when he did classmates cringed.
"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring.
Academic intelligence
Though he struck up a passing friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.
Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a poem about bland tasks such as showering, going to the gym and riding the bus in wild "poetry slam" style — "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."
When other students, always seated, read their poems, Coorough said Loughner "would laugh at things that you wouldn't laugh at."
Coorough said that after one woman read a poem about abortion, Loughner was "turning all shades of red and laughing," and said, "Wow, she's just like a terrorist, she killed a baby."
"He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child," Coorough said. "He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect."
Cates said Loughner "didn't have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence."
"He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class," Cates said.
Loughner expressed his interest in grammar and logic on the Internet as he made bizarre claims — such as that the Mars rover and the space shuttle missions were faked.
He frequently used "if-then" constructions in making nonsensical arguments. For instance: "If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F."
Loughner also said in one video that government is "implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar."
He described America's laws as "treasonous" and said that "every human who's mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency."
Aggressive, bizarre, hysterical
The New York Times reported one incident at the college last June when algebra class instructor Ben McGahee asked a simple arithmetic question.
According to McGahee, Loughner gave a random number and then said: "How can you deny math instead of accepting it?", the paper reported.
It said McGahee complained to the school authorities. He told the Times Loughner exhibited a pattern of behavior that included aggressive outbursts, bizarre comments and hysterical laughter.
"I was getting concerned about the safety of the students and the school. I was afraid he was going to pull out a weapon,"McGahee told the paper.
McGahee, the Times reported, said a counselor told him that Loughner had "extreme political views" and had caused trouble in other classes.
At least one student expressed the fear that Loughner would turn violent.
"We do have one student in the class who was disruptive today, I'm not certain yet if he was on drugs (as one person surmised) or disturbed. He scares me a bit," Lynda Sorenson, 52, a fellow student, said in an email to a friend, which was forwarded to the Times.
"The teacher tried to throw him out and he refused to go, so I talked to the teacher afterward. Hopefully he will be out of class very soon, and not come back with an automatic weapon," the email added.
Lydian Ali, another classmate, said Loughner would "laugh a lot at inappropriate times," the Times reported.
"He presented a poem to the class that he'd written called 'Meathead' that was mostly just about him going to the gym to work out. But it included a line about touching himself in the shower while thinking about girls. He was very enthusiastic when he read the poem out loud," he told the paper.
Loughner described himself as a U.S. military recruit in the video, but the Army released a statement saying he tried to enlist but was rejected. The statement said under federal privacy law, no reason could be specified.
In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.
A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Arizona Daily Star reported.
"He has kind of a troubled past, I can tell you that," Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.
I rarely say anything this strong, but people who are implying that Sarah Palin or the Tea Party are to blame are either complete morons, or - like anything else - they are trying to spin something for political reasons that has no business being spun.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
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"Becoming a Bruce fan is like hitting puberty as a musical fan. It's inevitable." - dcfaithful
I rarely say anything this strong, but people who are implying that Sarah Palin or the Tea Party are to blame are either complete morons, or - like anything else - they are trying to spin something for political reasons that has no business being spun.
I don't think it's "implying", I think it's said very explicitly by quite a few people, myself included, that they are not to blame for the shooting, but that they are responsible for the discourse and rhetoric they use. That rhetoric has a very clear undercurrent of violence, is openly inflammatory, and could have a dangerous impact when taken to heart and to extremes by someone who is paranoid or psychotic.
I think that's a fair point, and I don't believe that making it makes me, or anyone else, a moron.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Name-calling and personal comments about other members is not ok here. Please see the Posting Guidelines or risk having your account be read-only. Thank you.
Name-calling and personal comments about other members is not ok here. Please see the Posting Guidelines or risk having your account be read-only. Thank you.
Discuss the TOPIC, not the MEMBERS.
After reading the thread through, it's disheartening at the least to see how some of you label each other and repeat the organized efforts to divide people...which encourages hate instead of everyone pulling together to make things better even when they disagree on how to do that.
At the worst, it adds to the world being a worse place instead of a better place.
More accounts are going to be switched to read-only if people cannot control the way they speak to other members. Bring your best manners to the Pearl Jam Forums.
Comments
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/09/gergen.pointing.fingers/index.html?hpt=C2
Everyone, anyone, please read the above article. We all need to stop defending any of the ideologies, open our eyes, and look through all the muck in our minds that is blocking the true issues here, INNOCENT HUMAN LIVES WERE MAIMED AND KILLED. People of all ages, race, creeds, partisanship, beliefs, morals, denominations, on and on and on. Why do we feel the need to deprecate each other in the name of political alignment? It is immensely disconcerting, to me at least, witnessing our people abscinded amongst our abhorrent rhetoric. STOP, HUG SOMEONE, ANYONE, BE THANKFUL YOU HAVE YOUR LIFE AND THE LOVED ONES AROUND YOU. As grotesque as it is, this could happen anywhere, so why take the time to allow this freakbag infintestimal success in tearing us apart. THROW AWAY ALL DIFFERENCES, AND LETS HELP EACHOTHER PROSPER, TOGETHER!
I hope you all read this in good health, and godspeed fellow Jammers
This sounds like a comment that would come from the Rev. Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Church camp.
Hail, Hail!!!
It sounds like this shooter was one of these unstable... not very smart... people who have strong political ideas and opinions aimed at our government. You know the type... the one who will criticize the government without understanding how government even works.
Attached to the Tea Party? I don't know... but, my best guess ids he is one who is probably easily influenced and the type who will take what someone says... specifically, someone whom expresses opinions similar to his own, as the truth... and cannot be dissuaded by facts.
Politically motivated? I don't know... but Rep. Giffords was his local representative in congress, thus, his closest link to 'the Government' he hated so much.
...
As for the public discourse that is fueled by cable television, AM Talk Radio and Web Blogs... yeah... I can see it as possibly having some influence on this weak minded person. I mean, when you talk about 'Watering the Tree Of Liberty with the blood of the Patriots', think it is your God given right to bring loaded firearms to Town Hall meetings, feel that if ballots do not get desired results, bullets will and spew rhetoric about not retreating, But reloading... I can see it having an affect on the dimly lit minds of some Americans. It almost makes the act of lashing out at 'the Government'... as a act of Patriotism... failing to see that is is actually an act of Terrorism.
I know... some one will argue the whole 'Marilyn Manson' thing... but, remember... Marilyn Manson is NOT a figure of authority... someone thought of a person in the know... or a political leader. Marilyn Manson is a rock musician... and a bad one at that.
I feel we need to see the person with an opposing political view as an american with an opposing view... and that's it. Not a deadly enemy... not a foriegn agent bent on destroying America... not Satan. Simply... someone that doesn't see things the way you do.
That's all.
Hail, Hail!!!
Who knows what went on in that guys mind though
Wow.
I'm an atheist, and I'm more Christian than those self-deluding morons.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
The shooting of Gabrielle Giffords may lead to the temporary hibernation of rightwing rage, but it is encoded in conservative DNA
Michael Tomasky http://www.guardian.co.uk,
Sunday 9 January 2011 17.37 GMT
It was instructive to read elected Republicans' official statements in response to the Gabrielle Giffords shooting for what they did not say. The House Speaker, John Boehner, said: "An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve. Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society. Our prayers are with congresswoman Giffords, her staff, all who were injured and their families. This is a sad day for our country." Arizona Senator John McCain issued the following: "I am horrified by the violent attack on representative Gabrielle Giffords and many other innocent people by a wicked person who has no sense of justice or compassion. I pray for Gabby and the other victims, and for the repose of the souls of the dead and comfort for their families. Whoever did this, whatever their reason, they are a disgrace to Arizona, this country and the human race."
All well and good, and I have no doubt every word is sincere. But you'll note that they are silent on the question of the violent rhetoric that emanates from the rightwing of American society. You don't have to believe that alleged shooter, Jared Loughner, is a card-carrying Tea Party member (he evidently is not) to see some kind of connection between that violent rhetoric and what happened in Arizona on Saturday.
Is he a nut? Of course he's a nut. By definition, anyone who shoots innocent people like that has a screw loose. But nuts come in many varieties. There are some who think Dick Cheney planned 9/11, others who believe the CIA has installed eavesdropping devices in their fillings, and still others who insist they're the reincarnation of Mary Queen of Scots. So what particular type of nut is Loughner? We don't have a full picture yet. But we have enough of one. His coherent ravings included the conviction that the constitution assured him that "you don't have to accept the federalist laws". He called a female classmate who had an abortion a "terrorist".
In sum, he had political ideas, which not everyone does. Many of them (not all, but most) were right wing. He went to considerable expense and trouble to shoot a high-profile Democrat, at point-blank range right through the brain. What else does one need to know? For anyone to attempt to insist that the violent rhetoric so regularly heard in this country had no likely effect on this young man is to enshroud oneself in dishonesty and denial.
I would like to report to you that my nation is in shock, and that we will work together to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again. Alas, neither of these things is close to true. Of course an event like this is hard to believe in the moment; but in the context of our times, it's really not surprising at all. Last summer, a California man armed himself and set off for San Francisco with the express intent of killing liberals at a nonprofit foundation that had been pilloried by Glenn Beck and others. Only the lucky accident of his arrest en route for drunk driving prevented the mayhem then.
The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence has documented more than two dozen killings by or arrests of rightwing extremists who intended to do serious political violence since 2008. One Tennessee man killed two worshippers at a liberal church, regretting only that he had not been able to ice the 100 liberals named by author Bernard Goldberg as those most responsible for destroying America. Giffords herself received threats after voting for the healthcare reform bill, and shots were fired through the window of her district office. An event like this has been coming for a long time.
As to the future, some things will change, at least for a while. Sarah Palin will be deeply diminished by this. Speaking about the now well-known cross-hairs imagery over the map of Giffords' congressional district on Palin's website, Giffords herself last year expressed concern about "consequences". Palin pooh-poohed this at the time. Her unctuous and hypocritical "prayer" for Giffords and the other victims will mollify only those who think she can do no wrong. But in general, this hastens that blessed day when we no longer have to pay attention to her self-serving lies and idiocies.
Republicans and even Tea Partiers will have the sense – again, for a while – to steer clear of directly gun-related rhetoric. We won't be hearing much in the near term about "second amendment remedies" and insurrection and so forth. But this will be temporary. Guns are simply too central to the mythology of the American right, as is the idea of liberty being wrested from tyrants only at gunpoint. For the American right to stop talking about armed insurrection would be like American liberals dropping the subjects of race and gender. It's too encoded in conservative DNA.
In addition, contemporary American conservatism has been utterly arrested by this ridiculous paranoid fantasy that our government is a tyranny. Here was Republican Congressman Paul Broun of Georgia, speaking in Washington last April on the occasion of the 15th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing: "Fellow patriots, we have a lot of domestic enemies of the constitution, and they're right down the Mall, in the Congress of the United States – and right down Independence Avenue in the White House that belongs to us. It's not about my ability to hunt, which I love to do. It's not about the ability for me to protect my family and property against criminals, which we have the right to do. But it's all about us protecting ourselves from a tyrannical government." The year before, this same Broun singled out then-Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, as one such "domestic enemy of the constitution". He was re-elected last November with 67% of the vote.
This kind of rhetoric will go into hibernation now, but only for a bit. Because not only is it too central to rightwing mythology; it is central to Republican electoral strategy. This is one of those things that no one says, because it can't really and truly be proved forensically, but everyone knows. Get people to hate liberals. Get them to think not only that liberals have ideas for the country that are wrong – get them to believe that liberals despise the country and are actively attempting to hasten its demise. Say progressivism isn't just invalid or even dangerous, but "evil" and a "cancer," as Glenn Beck says. Fear gets people to the ballot box.
Direct responsibility for what happened Saturday? No. Mentally ill people are mentally ill. The Beatles weren't responsible for the messages that Charles Manson heard in their music. But there's a difference. Paul McCartney had no earthly reason to think that an innocent song about a fairground ride (Helter Skelter) would lead a man to commit barbarous acts of murder. Today's Republicans and conservative commentators, however, surely understand the fire they're playing with. But they do it, and a tragedy like Saturday's won't stop them, as long as they can maintain a phoney plausible deniability and as long as hate continues to pay dividends at the ballot box.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Tears for the heroes too, good tears.
"Becoming a Bruce fan is like hitting puberty as a musical fan. It's inevitable." - dcfaithful
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40996934/ns ... nd_courts/
At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"
Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and didn't have much to say.
"He was like ... 'What do you think of these people who are working for the government and they can't describe what they do?'" one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.
"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," the friend added.
Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case.
To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonsensical and obsessed with how words create reality.
Steeped in mistrust, paranoia
The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: That of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.
"If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem," the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15 in a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with nearly the same question his friends said he posed to Giffords: "What's government if words don't have meaning?"
Loughner had at least one other contact with Giffords. Investigators said they carried out a search warrant at Loughner's home and seized a letter addressed to him from Giffords' congressional stationery in which she thanked him for attending a "Congress on your Corner" event at a mall in Tucson in 2007. Saturday's shooting occurred at a similar event.
Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords" next to what appears to be Loughner's signature. Police say he purchased the Glock pistol used in the attack in November.
Loughner lives with his parents about a five-minute drive from the shootings, in a middle-class neighborhood lined with desert landscaping and palm trees. Sheriff's deputies blocked off much of the street Sunday.
Neighbors said Loughner kept to himself and was often seen walking his dog, almost always wearing a hooded sweat shirt and listening to his iPod.
The New York Times reported that no one came to the door when a reporter called Sunday morning.
Neighbors said they found the Loughner family unpleasant at times, particularly Loughner's father Randy, the Times said.
"Sometimes our trash would be out, and he would come up and yell that the trash stinks," next-door neighbor Anthony Woods, 19, told the Times. "He's very aggressive."
His high school friends said they fell out of touch with Loughner and last spoke to him around March, when one of them was going to set up some bottles in the desert for target practice and Loughner suggested he might come along.
It was unusual — Loughner hadn't expressed an interest in guns before — and his increasingly confrontational behavior was pushing them apart. He would send bizarre text messages, but also break off contact for weeks on end.
"We just started getting sketched out about him," the friend said.
Mental health concerns
Around the same time, Loughner's behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release.
Between February and September, Loughner "had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions," the statement said.
He was suspended in September 2010 after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution.
He withdrew voluntarily the following month, and was told he could return only if, among other things, a mental health professional agreed he did not present a danger, the school said.
It was at the college that Loughner had posed his question to Giffords about government and words, one friend said.
A college spokesman said Giffords often has used school property for open events; a Giffords spokesman said he was not sure at which event the exchange would have taken place.
Loughner's alienation from his friends was gradual.
The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around.
The crew smoked marijuana every day, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.
For a time, Loughner drank heavily, to the point of poisoning himself, the friends said.
Once, during school lunch break as a junior, he downed so much tequila that he came back to class, within five minutes passed out cold, had to be rushed to the hospital and "almost died," one friend said.
New world order
Mistrust of government was Loughner's defining conviction, the friends said.
He believed the U.S. government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.
On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World" — two novels about how authorities control the masses.
Other books in the wide-ranging list included "Mein Kampf," "The Communist Manifesto," "Peter Pan" and Aesop's Fables.
Over time, Loughner became increasingly introspective — what one of the friends described as a "nihilistic rut."
An ardent atheist, he began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the government and the monotony of modern life.
"He didn't want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity," one friend said.
The friends said Loughner told anyone who would listen that the world we see does not exist, that words have no meaning — and that the only way to derive meaning was during sleep.
Loughner began obsessing about a practice called lucid dreaming, in which people try to actively control their sleeping world.
Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not engage in political discussions — in fact, he didn't talk much at all, and when he did classmates cringed.
"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring.
Academic intelligence
Though he struck up a passing friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.
Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a poem about bland tasks such as showering, going to the gym and riding the bus in wild "poetry slam" style — "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."
When other students, always seated, read their poems, Coorough said Loughner "would laugh at things that you wouldn't laugh at."
Coorough said that after one woman read a poem about abortion, Loughner was "turning all shades of red and laughing," and said, "Wow, she's just like a terrorist, she killed a baby."
"He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child," Coorough said. "He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect."
Cates said Loughner "didn't have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence."
"He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class," Cates said.
Loughner expressed his interest in grammar and logic on the Internet as he made bizarre claims — such as that the Mars rover and the space shuttle missions were faked.
He frequently used "if-then" constructions in making nonsensical arguments. For instance: "If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F."
Loughner also said in one video that government is "implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar."
He described America's laws as "treasonous" and said that "every human who's mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency."
Aggressive, bizarre, hysterical
The New York Times reported one incident at the college last June when algebra class instructor Ben McGahee asked a simple arithmetic question.
According to McGahee, Loughner gave a random number and then said: "How can you deny math instead of accepting it?", the paper reported.
It said McGahee complained to the school authorities. He told the Times Loughner exhibited a pattern of behavior that included aggressive outbursts, bizarre comments and hysterical laughter.
"I was getting concerned about the safety of the students and the school. I was afraid he was going to pull out a weapon,"McGahee told the paper.
McGahee, the Times reported, said a counselor told him that Loughner had "extreme political views" and had caused trouble in other classes.
At least one student expressed the fear that Loughner would turn violent.
"We do have one student in the class who was disruptive today, I'm not certain yet if he was on drugs (as one person surmised) or disturbed. He scares me a bit," Lynda Sorenson, 52, a fellow student, said in an email to a friend, which was forwarded to the Times.
"The teacher tried to throw him out and he refused to go, so I talked to the teacher afterward. Hopefully he will be out of class very soon, and not come back with an automatic weapon," the email added.
Lydian Ali, another classmate, said Loughner would "laugh a lot at inappropriate times," the Times reported.
"He presented a poem to the class that he'd written called 'Meathead' that was mostly just about him going to the gym to work out. But it included a line about touching himself in the shower while thinking about girls. He was very enthusiastic when he read the poem out loud," he told the paper.
Loughner described himself as a U.S. military recruit in the video, but the Army released a statement saying he tried to enlist but was rejected. The statement said under federal privacy law, no reason could be specified.
In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.
A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Arizona Daily Star reported.
"He has kind of a troubled past, I can tell you that," Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opini ... ef=opinion
"Becoming a Bruce fan is like hitting puberty as a musical fan. It's inevitable." - dcfaithful
I don't think it's "implying", I think it's said very explicitly by quite a few people, myself included, that they are not to blame for the shooting, but that they are responsible for the discourse and rhetoric they use. That rhetoric has a very clear undercurrent of violence, is openly inflammatory, and could have a dangerous impact when taken to heart and to extremes by someone who is paranoid or psychotic.
I think that's a fair point, and I don't believe that making it makes me, or anyone else, a moron.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Discuss the TOPIC, not the MEMBERS.
Discuss the TOPIC, not the MEMBERS.
After reading the thread through, it's disheartening at the least to see how some of you label each other and repeat the organized efforts to divide people...which encourages hate instead of everyone pulling together to make things better even when they disagree on how to do that.
At the worst, it adds to the world being a worse place instead of a better place.
More accounts are going to be switched to read-only if people cannot control the way they speak to other members. Bring your best manners to the Pearl Jam Forums.