Jesus?

RW81233

yes this would work if people didn't demonstrate over and over and over and over and over how much they hate other people...

whygohome

know1 wrote:

Jesus was pretty anti-government as well.

Government does not have to be the source of help to people.

Hahahahahaha.

Funniest post ever!!!

DriftingByTheStorm

whygohome wrote:

know1 wrote:

Jesus was pretty anti-government as well.

Government does not have to be the source of help to people.

Hahahahahaha.

Funniest post ever!!!

I mean. Not THAT funny.
"Jesus" took the "middle path". Recognizing the necessity AND the divine sanctioning of leadership\government, but also VERY HARSHLY CRITICIZING those that would\did abuse their power. LARGE sections of the "words of Jesus" in the NT do very much relate to criticism of "government" and\or the relgio-political power structure (understanding that in his day the Jewish people were governed by a sort of government-priesthood). He also spent a good amount of time criticizing BAD (overly legalistic, or those that detract from the human condition) LAWS, as well.

Byrnzie wrote:

This does nothing to explain why the early Church Fathers decided to omit all teachings relating to the Gnostic Gospels - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha

The gnostics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic emphasized an individual connection with 'God', with the higher powers, or the spiritual. The Church Fathers didn't like this, as they preferred all communion with 'God' to be mediated through themselves, and through the Church. Therefore all of the gospels with a mystical, or Gnostic character, where ostracized from the New Testament.

I think we each have our points here, but I would note just briefly.
1. Your use of "Gnostic" is a bit too broad here. There were GNOSTIC CHRISTIANS, non-gnostic-christians, Gnostic Non-Christians, and Non-Gnostic-Non-Christians. Even absent these BASIC distinctions, the term Gnostic itself, even applying to anyone of these 4 is still a bit broad. There were non-gnostic-MYSTICAL-christians, non-gnostic-non-mystical-christians, etc etc etc. The "religious" \ theological \ theosophical \ philosophical climate of the day was VERY mixed \ confused.

2. A lot of the complaints against the "gnostics" (again, this is horribly flawed, overly broad term) had nothing to do with their claims of direct knowledge of god, and in fact, claims of direct "gnosis" CAN BE FOUND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. Jesus says "through him" does one know the lord, and says that prayer is done at home, and in private, to god, and is NOT mediated. In fact, i would actually challenge you to find ANYwhere in the NT where "scripture" points one towards a "church" or a "priest" for "gnosis". Time and time again, the bible directs the HEART to GOD ... not to any man, or secular power.

One example of a complaint of the "early church fathers" against the gnostics having NOTHING to do with "gnosis" would be that they (the "gnostics") would have the understanding of sin and human nature perverted so that man was BY NATURE evil, and not BY WILL. This was actually one of the larger \ more problematic heresies for the early church writers, as their understanding of human nature was that man MUST CHOOSE between good & evil. The "gnostic" notion that man was either good or bad by NATURE was seen as a most horrible heresey because it debased "sin" to being nothing more than a personality trait that you either had or did not have. It meant that a good man was not really "good" because he was simply BORN good. And a bad man not really bad because he was merely "born bad".

Other gnostic heresies (for instance as observable in the writings of Irenaeus) had to do with purely theological\cosmological assertions of the gnostics on esoteric points such as (again, from Irenaeus) the notion that some gnostic writers would claim that the 12 apostles were merely metaphorical representations of the Gnostic "aeons" (segmented aspects of the godhead). Irenaeus points out that this simply can not be other than a lie \ heresy given that the "gnostics" actually claimed "a five" and then "a ten" aeons, and THEN "a twelve". He then goes on to reason that why would all knowing Jesus appoint a mere 12 apostles to represent a LESSER 12 "aeons" if in fact there were ten GREATER aeons above the 12, and then further, a five EVEN GREATER above the 10. Yet there is no "5 apostles" or similar in the scripture, nor "a ten". Thus Irenaues (probably rightly) argues that this gnostic assertion must be lie. (of course i don't think he tries to disprove any solar \ zodiacal metaphor :P)

I'd also like to comment that a probable reason that a good deal of the "gnostic gospels" were "dropped" from "the bible" likely has to do with the very same notion that I quoted from Clement of Alexandria, which was, quite simply, that ***many of the gnostic "gospel" writings contain VERY SPECIFIC and VERY LENGTHY tracts on DEEP ESOTERIC COSMOLOGY, and that his was probably seen (rightly?) by (more than likely "initiated") compilers of "the bible" to be SACRED KNOWLEDGE NOT TO BE DELIVERED TO THE "PROFANE".

Just go look at The Apocryphon of John. Assuming the compilers didn't simply dismiss these sort of writings as unauthentic, they likely removed them because they "said too much". Remembering that "the bible" was compiled for EVERYONE, while some "truths" remained "secret" and held in private only for "initiates".

???

DriftingByTheStorm

1 John 4 wrote:

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

How can this be seen as anything BUT Gnosis?
And how can it be held but as beautiful? What is to laugh at, loathe, or mock?
I find nothing but simple beauty in such texts, and John was, certainly if not a "gnostic", one hell of a MYSTIC.

More beauty from John:

1 John 2 wrote:

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Do you not see this for what it is?
All John is really trying to say is that no man can "know God" and be "within him" unless they ACT AS THOUGH THEY KNOW GOD. One can not merely catch a glimpse of the all knowing and claim to be enlightened while ACTING with hatred and selfishness. This distinction is important! The purpose of ALL ESOTERIC TEACHING throughout the ages has been THREE FOLD:
1. To KNOW GOD.
2. To KNOW YOURSELF
3. TO LOVE *ALL* YOUR BROTHERS ("a brotherhood of man, a universal brotherhood", THIS is the Masonic goal, these are the foundational pillars of "the new world order", not hate, power, and greed)

You can not know god, or know yourself, without ALSO LOVING YOUR BROTHERS AND ***ACTING AS SUCH***. "RIGHT RELATIONS" \ "RIGHT ACTION".


And, yet AGAIN, in John ... WORDS OF JESUS DIRECTLY:

John 14 wrote:

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

I think it is important to iterate on this point, because John & Jesus are making a BOLD STATEMENT.
Having read enough of Esoteric Thought to KNOW what is CLAIMED, Jesus is MEANT TO REPRESENT "THE LOGOS" (and John states this DIRECTLY* - see bottom footnote) ... and FOLLOW THIS LOGIC:
1. Jesus Is The Logos
2. The Logos is THAT PART OF GOD WHICH DWELLS IN THE WORLD (it is "the word made flesh")
3. JESUS IS WITHIN YOU (John states this DIRECTLY)
4. Jesus says "no one can come to the father except through me"

THIS IS NOT SOME SORT OF RELIGIOUS DOGMA RELATED TO ACCEPTING THE CHURCH OR THE PRIESTS.
*** JESUS AND JOHN ARE EXPLICITLY, REPEATEDLY AND EMPHATICALLY STATING THAT NO MAN CAN COME TO KNOW GOD, EXCEPT THAT HE FIRST COME TO KNOW THAT LIVING PIECE OF GOD MADE FLESH THAT DWELLS WITHIN HIMSELF ***

This is perhaps one of the greatest pieces of esoteric thought expressed in "the bible", period. It is ABSOLUTELY what the esoteric schools (masonry, rosicruciansim, templarism, illuminism, AND THE BIBLE) teach emphatically. THAT GOD DWELLS WITHIN. THAT YOU ARE A PIECE OF GOD. THAT YOUR SOUL IS ETERNAL, AND 'IN GOD', AND THAT ONCE YOU COME TO KNOW AND RECOGNIZE THIS SPARK OF GOD WITHIN YOU (your own soul, in fact, your immortal self) YOU HAVE COME TO KNOW GOD HIMSELF.

The very "works" or "miracles" expressed in the bible are (among several other more common lessons) MEANT TO DEMONSTRATE TO MAN THE IMMORTAL NATURE OF HIS OWN SOUL, along with the application of man's will and THIS KNOWLEDGE for THE GOOD OF ALL MANKIND.

[from an esoteric perspective, even the crucifixtion and resurrection of Jesus is meant to be a public display of The 3rd Initiation where a man dies to all personal selfishness, becoming truly one with god, and then being reborn. it was meant as a direct demonstration to mankind of THEIR OWN ABILITY to survive "death" (but only should they follow "the way").]


* John on the Logos:
John 1:1
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and God was the reason."
λόγος = word = LOGOS

John 1:14
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν
"And the logos became flesh among us"

John 1:14-15 in plain english:
"14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

It seems to pretty plainly say that Jesus, the logos incarnate, IS of god, and IS god.
This whole semantic debate that is carried out in modern theology over whether Jesus really IS god or not should be moot if you understand the rather simple metaphysical concept being stated. Simply: that aspect of god, the logos, is CARNATE ... in "jesus", in you, in EVERYONE. ALL BEINGS ARE ALIVE THROUGH THAT ASPECT OF "GOD" WHICH IS ANIMATE IN THE WORLD. No one has ever "seen god" "but the one and only son" because Jesus IS that divine spark or aspect of god animate in the world. Everyone is but a drop of water, and "jesus" the entire spring, and god the well head itself. We are all related to each other through the ONE LIFE that flows through all of us.

know1

whygohome wrote:

know1 wrote:

Jesus was pretty anti-government as well.

Government does not have to be the source of help to people.

Hahahahahaha.

Funniest post ever!!!

Why? Most of the times Jesus condemned anyone it was typically members of the government or rulers. In fact, he was pretty harsh to them almost anytime he spoke of them.

Byrnzie

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

It seems to pretty plainly say that Jesus, the logos incarnate, IS of god, and IS god.
This whole semantic debate that is carried out in modern theology over whether Jesus really IS god or not should be moot if you understand the rather simple metaphysical concept being stated. Simply: that aspect of god, the logos, is CARNATE ... in "jesus", in you, in EVERYONE. ALL BEINGS ARE ALIVE THROUGH THAT ASPECT OF "GOD" WHICH IS ANIMATE IN THE WORLD. No one has ever "seen god" "but the one and only son" because Jesus IS that divine spark or aspect of god animate in the world. Everyone is but a drop of water, and "jesus" the entire spring, and god the well head itself. We are all related to each other through the ONE LIFE that flows through all of us.

The Nag Hammadi Library
The Gospel of Thomas

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.


This one is pretty intriguing. It seems to refer to the notion of time both before and after life. Like, when we die, how long will we be dead for? Infinity? And if so, then how does that apply to the opposite direction - the time before we were born? Is that also an infinity? Not possible, right? Therefore, should we look at the process as circular instead...or in another way?:

18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

DriftingByTheStorm

Byrnzie wrote:

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

It seems to pretty plainly say that Jesus, the logos incarnate, IS of god, and IS god.
This whole semantic debate that is carried out in modern theology over whether Jesus really IS god or not should be moot if you understand the rather simple metaphysical concept being stated. Simply: that aspect of god, the logos, is CARNATE ... in "jesus", in you, in EVERYONE. ALL BEINGS ARE ALIVE THROUGH THAT ASPECT OF "GOD" WHICH IS ANIMATE IN THE WORLD. No one has ever "seen god" "but the one and only son" because Jesus IS that divine spark or aspect of god animate in the world. Everyone is but a drop of water, and "jesus" the entire spring, and god the well head itself. We are all related to each other through the ONE LIFE that flows through all of us.

The Nag Hammadi Library
The Gospel of Thomas

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.


This one is pretty intriguing. It seems to refer to the notion of time both before and after life. Like, when we die, how long will we be dead for? Infinity? And if so, then how does that apply to the opposite direction - the time before we were born? Is that also an infinity? Not possible, right? Therefore, should we look at the process as circular instead...or in another way?:

18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Well, the first one you quoted, about the fish & birds preceeding ... i believe "Jesus" is probably referring to the simple notion that if you look outside of yourselves for the truth about the kingdom of the lord, you will simply be lead astray by that which is of little consequence ... as in, looking towards the sky, you will be distracted by the birds, etc. Looking in towards yourself, you will understand the true nature. (thats my assumption anyhow)

The second quote, i suppose COULD be about "time", but understanding something of esoteric cosmology, my guess it is probably referring more simply to the notion held therein that all stems from the godhead, and to the godhead all one day will return. Esoteric cosmology resembling something of the "big bang" where there is "all that was", the eternal god, from whence creation sprung, and after the end of ALL ages, back to to the eternal god will all flow. I'm not sure "time" is really relevant to the parable, but i suppose you could argue such by semantics.

SPEAKING TO THE ETERNAL SPARK,
old Thomas The Twin (of Jesus, see Thomas' other Book, paragraph 3) records the following from his gospel as well:

83. Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."

84. Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"

91. They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."

He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."

and, esoterically speaking:

94. Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."

DriftingByTheStorm

This one struck me as hell'uva interesting:

No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just

14. Jesus said to them, "[...] and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits."[/quote]

WHOA!