While it is certainly true that a lot of the scientific achievements of the Roman (and pre-Roman world) were lost (or more precisely forgotten, though much of the knowledge was actually preserved in writings held by the Church, but never referenced), the period produced many remarkable achievements of its own, particularly in theology, philosophy, architecture, art, music, etc.
Though we really have the Islamic world to thank for that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_co ... val_Europe 'Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe were numerous , affecting such varied areas as art, architecture, medicine, agriculture, music, language, education, law, and technology. From the 11th to 13th centuries, Europe absorbed knowledge from the Islamic civilization. Of particular importance was the rediscovery of the ancient classic texts, most notably the work of the Greek natural philosopher Aristotle, through retranslations from Arabic. In the early 20th century the musicologist Henry George Farmer wrote that a "growing number of scholars...recognize(d) that the influence of the Muslim civilization as a whole on medieval Europe was enormous in such fields as science, philosophy, theology, literature, aesthetics, than has been recognized."[2] For one historian the contributions from the Islamic world have had a considerable effect on the development of Western civilization and contributed to the achievements of the Renaissance...
Following the fall of the Roman Empire and the dawn of the Middle Ages, many texts from Classical Antiquity had been lost to the Europeans. In the Middle East however, many of these Greek texts (such as Aristotle) were translated from Greek into Syriac during the 6th and 7th centuries by Nestorian, Melkites or Jacobite monks living in Palestine, or by Greek exiles from Athens or Edessa who visited Islamic Universities. Many of these texts however were then kept, translated, and developed upon by the Islamic world, especially in centers of learning such as Baghdad, where a “House of Wisdom”, with thousands of manuscripts existed as soon as 832. These texts were translated again into European languages during the Middle Ages.[1] Eastern Christians played an important role in exploiting this knowledge, especially through the Christian Aristotelician School of Baghdad in the 11th and 12th centuries...'
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
The Islamic world certainly produced many remarkable achievements, but medieval Europe had many achievements of its own. You personally may not think as much of them, but that is really beside the point. Again, your equation of Christianity = Dark Ages is overly simplistic at best.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
europe hit the dark ages because of the collapse of the roman empire, not christianity...where from hadrians wall south to the bottom of the iberian peninsula had been governed by one dictator, had one army, trade/knowledge flowed freely....emipre collapses = europe in the dark ages. Anyway do you think all those followers of the way, Peter (cruicified upsidown in rome) John exiled to do hard labour on Patmos, Paul under house arrest in rome...not to mention the unnamed who were killed for their faith....would have let themselves die for something that hadn't been true, that they hadn't been witness to?
How I choose to feel is how I am...I will not lose my faith, It's an inside job today.
Manchester Aug 17th 2009
Hyde Park June 25th 2010
Manchester June 20th & 21st 2012
Leeds July 14th 2014
europe hit the dark ages because of the collapse of the roman empire, not christianity...where from hadrians wall south to the bottom of the iberian peninsula had been governed by one dictator, had one army, trade/knowledge flowed freely....emipre collapses = europe in the dark ages. Anyway do you think all those followers of the way, Peter (cruicified upsidown in rome) John exiled to do hard labour on Patmos, Paul under house arrest in rome...not to mention the unnamed who were killed for their faith....would have let themselves die for something that hadn't been true, that they hadn't been witness to?
would have let themselves die for something that hadn't been true, that they hadn't been witness to
Well lets put that to the Jihadists who have died for their faith, were they witness's to The birth of Islam
europe hit the dark ages because of the collapse of the roman empire, not christianity...where from hadrians wall south to the bottom of the iberian peninsula had been governed by one dictator, had one army, trade/knowledge flowed freely....emipre collapses = europe in the dark ages. Anyway do you think all those followers of the way, Peter (cruicified upsidown in rome) John exiled to do hard labour on Patmos, Paul under house arrest in rome...not to mention the unnamed who were killed for their faith....would have let themselves die for something that hadn't been true, that they hadn't been witness to?
would have let themselves die for something that hadn't been true, that they hadn't been witness to
Well lets put that to the Jihadists who have died for their faith, were they witness's to The birth of Islam
No I don't think jihadists were around at the time of Mohammed...
Christians circa ad 50-150 were not choosing to die...they were being murdured because of what they believed...to try and equate that to a suicide bomber/taliban member is frankly (i'm sorry to be so blunt) stupid...
How I choose to feel is how I am...I will not lose my faith, It's an inside job today.
Manchester Aug 17th 2009
Hyde Park June 25th 2010
Manchester June 20th & 21st 2012
Leeds July 14th 2014
europe hit the dark ages because of the collapse of the roman empire, not christianity...
The Roman Empire collapsed and was followed by the Christianization of Europe, which was subsequently referred to as the Dark Ages, due not only to 'the lack of Latin literature, but also a lack of contemporary written history, general demographic decline, limited building activity and material cultural achievements in general.'
europe hit the dark ages because of the collapse of the roman empire, not christianity...
The Roman Empire collapsed and was followed by the Christianization of Europe, which was subsequently referred to as the Dark Ages, due not only to 'the lack of Latin literature, but also a lack of contemporary written history, general demographic decline, limited building activity and material cultural achievements in general.'
So you agree...the fall of the roman empire precipitated the dark ages?
How I choose to feel is how I am...I will not lose my faith, It's an inside job today.
Manchester Aug 17th 2009
Hyde Park June 25th 2010
Manchester June 20th & 21st 2012
Leeds July 14th 2014
Christians circa ad 50-150 were not choosing to die...they were being murdured because of what they believed...to try and equate that to a suicide bomber/taliban member is frankly (i'm sorry to be so blunt) stupid...
But it's not stupid to equate the fact of some early Christians having been persecuted with proof that the Gospel Jesus actually existed?
So your belief is that even if the Roman Empire had not collapsed, but had continued indefinitely as a Christian state that Europe would have still entered the same period of decline?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
During the early years of Christianity, many believers chose suicide over the difficult life of religious persecution. In fact, some early Christian writers maintained that a self-chosen death was a goal for the genuinely pious to aspire. The number of Christian martyrs and mass suicides rose so quickly that the ruling Jewish faction decided to forbid eulogies and public mourning for those who died by their own hand. This action began the stigmatization of suicide in Judeo-Christian culture. The first church-led condemnation of suicide occurred when Jewish leaders refused to allow the bodies of Christian suicide victims to be buried in hallowed ground. The few Christian condemnations of suicide came from the notion that suicide was to be despised because it was the action of the betrayer of Jesus. Thus, suicide developed a “guilt by association” because of Judas’ death by hanging.
Christian Condemnation
The first Christian to publicly denounce suicide as a sin was St. Augustine in the 4th Century. The basis of Augustine’s condemnation was the ubiquitous acts of suicide among Christians.
Christians circa ad 50-150 were not choosing to die...they were being murdured because of what they believed...to try and equate that to a suicide bomber/taliban member is frankly (i'm sorry to be so blunt) stupid...
But it's not stupid to equate the fact of some early Christians having been persecuted with proof that the Gospel Jesus actually existed?
No, not 'some' early christians...men like Peter & John who talked, walked, ate, prayed, lived with Jesus for aprox. three years....refering to your origianl post, Paul/Saul does mention Jesus...in fact he preaches to the synagogues that Jesus is the Christ. '...and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ' Acts 9:22
How I choose to feel is how I am...I will not lose my faith, It's an inside job today.
Manchester Aug 17th 2009
Hyde Park June 25th 2010
Manchester June 20th & 21st 2012
Leeds July 14th 2014
So your belief is that even if the Roman Empire had not collapsed, but had continued indefinitely as a Christian state that Europe would have still entered the same period of decline?
No, not 'some' early christians...men like Peter & John who talked, walked, ate, prayed, lived with Jesus for aprox. three years....refering to your origianl post, Paul/Saul does mention Jesus...in fact he preaches to the synagogues that Jesus is the Christ. '...and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ' Acts 9:22
There is no historical evidence of Jesus' existence. None whatsoever. And the New testament is not an historical work.
The Acts of the Apostles was written during the second half of the second century.
It isn't irrelevant at all. If, as you say, Christianity was the cause of Europe's decline, you would then have to argue that the Roman empire would have entered the very same decline (or something quite akin to it) even without the dissolution of the empire simply by virtue of being a Christian state. The relevance is that the hypothetical emphasizes the major alternative cause for the decline, namely the dissolution of empire.
But hey, if you want to be doctrinaire feel free to ignore questions you'd rather not deal with.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
It isn't irrelevant at all. If, as you say, Christianity was the cause of Europe's decline, you would then have to argue that the Roman empire would have entered the very same decline (or something quite akin to it) even without the dissolution of the empire simply by virtue of being a Christian state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Histor ... man_Empire '[In 'The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Edward] Gibbon argued that Christianity created a belief that a better life existed after death, which fostered an indifference to the present among Roman citizens, thus sapping their desire to sacrifice for the Empire. He also believed its comparative pacifism tended to hamper the traditional Roman martial spirit. Finally, like other Enlightenment thinkers, Gibbon held in contempt the Middle Ages as a priest-ridden, superstitious, dark age. It was not until his own age of reason and rational thought, it was believed, that human history could resume its progress.'
I dont think anyone doubts that a man fitting the general description of Jesus existed and was crucified at about the time indicated. There is briefly mention of him in roman sources, and demonstrably, he made quite a following, at least after his death. So going after that he never existed will probably back you up into a difficult corner.
What CAN be said is that it is far from proven that he really did anything of what the gospels claims he did. He probably did have a miracle or two up his sleeve as any respectable prophet of his day. However, it is equally clear that early christianity (0-300) was very heterogenous in nature and differed widely in what they believed in and emphasized. Christ was mixed in with a lot of other religious/mythical/religious "debris" of the time, which explains that his story fits neatly with Mitra, egyptian beliefs, the clear line from greek philosophers like Plato and so on. Christianity didnt consolidate until the meeting in Nicea under the emperor of Eastern Rome's auspices. So what got added, exagerrated, left out and fiddled with in those centuries leading up to the "official version" the church controlled on behalf of the state, is unclear. Writings that founded christianity are picked out based on their compliance with the "new order" of that time, and differing interpretations and sects were perscuted as heretics for the next millenium or so.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
i forgot what comedian it was but i saw some guy make a joke about "this is the gospel.....according to luke"
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Gibbon? Seriously?! Don't get me wrong, Gibbon is a giant, but he's going on being two hundred years behind the current scholarship. Try reading Bryan Ward-Perkins, "The Fall of Rome and the end of Civilization."
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I dont think anyone doubts that a man fitting the general description of Jesus existed and was crucified at about the time indicated. There is briefly mention of him in roman sources, and demonstrably, he made quite a following, at least after his death. So going after that he never existed will probably back you up into a difficult corner.
Actually, there are many people who doubt he existed based on the fact that no evidence of his existence exists. And those mentions of him in Roman sources are fakes added later by the early Church Fathers.
I dont think anyone doubts that a man fitting the general description of Jesus existed and was crucified at about the time indicated. There is briefly mention of him in roman sources, and demonstrably, he made quite a following, at least after his death. So going after that he never existed will probably back you up into a difficult corner.
Actually, there are many people who doubt he existed based on the fact that no evidence of his existence exists. And those mentions of him in Roman sources are fakes added later by the early Church Fathers.
ive never doubted someone existed. all myths are based on something no matter how tenuous. but i dont believe this man we call jesus is divine or that he performed miracles or ascended to heaven 3 days after being crucified. i dont believe he walked on water and i definitely dont believe his was a virgin birth. in fact i dont believe he was much of anything other than quite possibly someone with some ideas the establishment wasnt kosher with. he also could have been a bit touched in the head, but i digress. personally id much prefer it if like cuchulainn he could turn himself into a dog. now thatd be awesome!!!
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
ive never doubted someone existed. all myths are based on something no matter how tenuous. but i dont believe this man we call jesus is divine or that he performed miracles or ascended to heaven 3 days after being crucified. i dont believe he walked on water and i definitely dont believe his was a virgin birth. in fact i dont believe he was much of anything other than quite possibly someone with some ideas the establishment wasnt kosher with. he also could have been a bit touched in the head, but i digress. personally id much prefer it if like cuchulainn he could turn himself into a dog. now thatd be awesome!!!
Or he was simply the latest manifestation of an age-old mythology historicized by the group of early Christians who took the myth and made it literal. 'Once it was, a whole new type of religion came into being - a religion based on history not myth, on blind faith in supposed events rather than on a mystical understanding of mythical allegories, a religion of the Outer Mysteries without the Inner Mysteries, of form without content, of belief without knowledge.'
Jesus is the saviour of mankind, God made man, the son of God equal with the Father - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is born of a mortal virgin who after her death ascends to heaven and is honored as a divine being - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is born in a cave on December 25th or January 6th, as is Osisris-Dionysus.
The birth of Jesus is prophesied by a star - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is visited by the Magi, who are followers of Osiris-Dionysus.
The Magi bring Jesus gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh, which a sixth century BC Pagan tells us is the way to worship God.
Jesus turns water into wine at a marriage on the same day that Osiris-Dionysus was previously believed to have turned water into wine at a marriage.
Jesus is surrounded by 12 disciples - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while crowds wave branches, as does Osiris-Dinoysus.
Jesus is hung on a tree or crucified, as is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus dies as a sacrifice to redeem the sins of the world - so does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus' corpse is wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh, as is the corpse of Osiris-Dionysus.
After his death Jesus descends to hell, then on the third day resurrects before his disciples and ascends into heaven, where he is enthroned by God and waits to reappear at the end of time as a divine judge, as does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus was said to have died and resurrected on exactly the same dates that the death and resurrection of Osiris-Dionysus were celebrated.
Jesus' empty tomb is visited by three women followers - Osiris-Dionysus also has three women followers who visit an empty cave.
ive never doubted someone existed. all myths are based on something no matter how tenuous. but i dont believe this man we call jesus is divine or that he performed miracles or ascended to heaven 3 days after being crucified. i dont believe he walked on water and i definitely dont believe his was a virgin birth. in fact i dont believe he was much of anything other than quite possibly someone with some ideas the establishment wasnt kosher with. he also could have been a bit touched in the head, but i digress. personally id much prefer it if like cuchulainn he could turn himself into a dog. now thatd be awesome!!!
Or he was simply the latest manifestation of an age-old mythology historicized by the group of early Christians who took the myth and made it literal. 'Once it was, a whole new type of religion came into being - a religion based on history not myth, on blind faith in supposed events rather than on a mystical understanding of mythical allegories, a religion of the Outer Mysteries without the Inner Mysteries, of form without content, of belief without knowledge.'
Jesus is the saviour of mankind, God made man, the son of God equal with the Father - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is born of a mortal virgin who after her death ascends to heaven and is honored as a divine being - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is born in a cave on December 25th or January 6th, as is Osisris-Dionysus.
The birth of Jesus is prophesied by a star - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is visited by the Magi, who are followers of Osiris-Dionysus.
The Magi bring Jesus gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh, which a sixth century BC Pagan tells us is the way to worship God.
Jesus turns water into wine at a marriage on the same day that Osiris-Dionysus was previously believed to have turned water into wine at a marriage.
Jesus is surrounded by 12 disciples - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while crowds wave branches, as does Osiris-Dinoysus.
Jesus is hung on a tree or crucified, as is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus dies as a sacrifice to redeem the sins of the world - so does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus' corpse is wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh, as is the corpse of Osiris-Dionysus.
After his death Jesus descends to hell, then on the third day resurrects before his disciples and ascends into heaven, where he is enthroned by God and waits to reappear at the end of time as a divine judge, as does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus was said to have died and resurrected on exactly the same dates that the death and resurrection of Osiris-Dionysus were celebrated.
Jesus' empty tomb is visited by three women followers - Osiris-Dionysus also has three women followers who visit an empty cave.
do you reckon its possible that God/s are simply a manifestation of ourselves? that long ago we built sculptures depicting ourselves and over time it evolved into a worshipping of this anthropomorphic form as something divine and otherwordly?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
Though we really have the Islamic world to thank for that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_co ... val_Europe
'Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe were numerous , affecting such varied areas as art, architecture, medicine, agriculture, music, language, education, law, and technology. From the 11th to 13th centuries, Europe absorbed knowledge from the Islamic civilization. Of particular importance was the rediscovery of the ancient classic texts, most notably the work of the Greek natural philosopher Aristotle, through retranslations from Arabic. In the early 20th century the musicologist Henry George Farmer wrote that a "growing number of scholars...recognize(d) that the influence of the Muslim civilization as a whole on medieval Europe was enormous in such fields as science, philosophy, theology, literature, aesthetics, than has been recognized."[2] For one historian the contributions from the Islamic world have had a considerable effect on the development of Western civilization and contributed to the achievements of the Renaissance...
Following the fall of the Roman Empire and the dawn of the Middle Ages, many texts from Classical Antiquity had been lost to the Europeans. In the Middle East however, many of these Greek texts (such as Aristotle) were translated from Greek into Syriac during the 6th and 7th centuries by Nestorian, Melkites or Jacobite monks living in Palestine, or by Greek exiles from Athens or Edessa who visited Islamic Universities. Many of these texts however were then kept, translated, and developed upon by the Islamic world, especially in centers of learning such as Baghdad, where a “House of Wisdom”, with thousands of manuscripts existed as soon as 832. These texts were translated again into European languages during the Middle Ages.[1] Eastern Christians played an important role in exploiting this knowledge, especially through the Christian Aristotelician School of Baghdad in the 11th and 12th centuries...'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsEa_M7MqYE
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUBAx8jb ... re=related
According to you.
Manchester Aug 17th 2009
Hyde Park June 25th 2010
Manchester June 20th & 21st 2012
Leeds July 14th 2014
would have let themselves die for something that hadn't been true, that they hadn't been witness to
Well lets put that to the Jihadists who have died for their faith, were they witness's to The birth of Islam
No I don't think jihadists were around at the time of Mohammed...
Christians circa ad 50-150 were not choosing to die...they were being murdured because of what they believed...to try and equate that to a suicide bomber/taliban member is frankly (i'm sorry to be so blunt) stupid...
Manchester Aug 17th 2009
Hyde Park June 25th 2010
Manchester June 20th & 21st 2012
Leeds July 14th 2014
The Roman Empire collapsed and was followed by the Christianization of Europe, which was subsequently referred to as the Dark Ages, due not only to 'the lack of Latin literature, but also a lack of contemporary written history, general demographic decline, limited building activity and material cultural achievements in general.'
So you agree...the fall of the roman empire precipitated the dark ages?
Manchester Aug 17th 2009
Hyde Park June 25th 2010
Manchester June 20th & 21st 2012
Leeds July 14th 2014
But it's not stupid to equate the fact of some early Christians having been persecuted with proof that the Gospel Jesus actually existed?
No, the Dark Ages represent the Christianization of Europe and the subsequent stagnation of artistic, cultural and scientific achievements.
http://www.injacobsmemory.org/history-of-suicide.html
Early Jewish/Christian Struggles
During the early years of Christianity, many believers chose suicide over the difficult life of religious persecution. In fact, some early Christian writers maintained that a self-chosen death was a goal for the genuinely pious to aspire. The number of Christian martyrs and mass suicides rose so quickly that the ruling Jewish faction decided to forbid eulogies and public mourning for those who died by their own hand. This action began the stigmatization of suicide in Judeo-Christian culture. The first church-led condemnation of suicide occurred when Jewish leaders refused to allow the bodies of Christian suicide victims to be buried in hallowed ground. The few Christian condemnations of suicide came from the notion that suicide was to be despised because it was the action of the betrayer of Jesus. Thus, suicide developed a “guilt by association” because of Judas’ death by hanging.
Christian Condemnation
The first Christian to publicly denounce suicide as a sin was St. Augustine in the 4th Century. The basis of Augustine’s condemnation was the ubiquitous acts of suicide among Christians.
No, not 'some' early christians...men like Peter & John who talked, walked, ate, prayed, lived with Jesus for aprox. three years....refering to your origianl post, Paul/Saul does mention Jesus...in fact he preaches to the synagogues that Jesus is the Christ. '...and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ' Acts 9:22
Manchester Aug 17th 2009
Hyde Park June 25th 2010
Manchester June 20th & 21st 2012
Leeds July 14th 2014
Your hypothetical question is irrelevant.
There is no historical evidence of Jesus' existence. None whatsoever. And the New testament is not an historical work.
The Acts of the Apostles was written during the second half of the second century.
But hey, if you want to be doctrinaire feel free to ignore questions you'd rather not deal with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Histor ... man_Empire
'[In 'The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Edward] Gibbon argued that Christianity created a belief that a better life existed after death, which fostered an indifference to the present among Roman citizens, thus sapping their desire to sacrifice for the Empire. He also believed its comparative pacifism tended to hamper the traditional Roman martial spirit. Finally, like other Enlightenment thinkers, Gibbon held in contempt the Middle Ages as a priest-ridden, superstitious, dark age. It was not until his own age of reason and rational thought, it was believed, that human history could resume its progress.'
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
those are fucking hilarious
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
What CAN be said is that it is far from proven that he really did anything of what the gospels claims he did. He probably did have a miracle or two up his sleeve as any respectable prophet of his day. However, it is equally clear that early christianity (0-300) was very heterogenous in nature and differed widely in what they believed in and emphasized. Christ was mixed in with a lot of other religious/mythical/religious "debris" of the time, which explains that his story fits neatly with Mitra, egyptian beliefs, the clear line from greek philosophers like Plato and so on. Christianity didnt consolidate until the meeting in Nicea under the emperor of Eastern Rome's auspices. So what got added, exagerrated, left out and fiddled with in those centuries leading up to the "official version" the church controlled on behalf of the state, is unclear. Writings that founded christianity are picked out based on their compliance with the "new order" of that time, and differing interpretations and sects were perscuted as heretics for the next millenium or so.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Actually, there are many people who doubt he existed based on the fact that no evidence of his existence exists. And those mentions of him in Roman sources are fakes added later by the early Church Fathers.
ive never doubted someone existed. all myths are based on something no matter how tenuous. but i dont believe this man we call jesus is divine or that he performed miracles or ascended to heaven 3 days after being crucified. i dont believe he walked on water and i definitely dont believe his was a virgin birth. in fact i dont believe he was much of anything other than quite possibly someone with some ideas the establishment wasnt kosher with. he also could have been a bit touched in the head, but i digress. personally id much prefer it if like cuchulainn he could turn himself into a dog. now thatd be awesome!!!
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Or he was simply the latest manifestation of an age-old mythology historicized by the group of early Christians who took the myth and made it literal.
'Once it was, a whole new type of religion came into being - a religion based on history not myth, on blind faith in supposed events rather than on a mystical understanding of mythical allegories, a religion of the Outer Mysteries without the Inner Mysteries, of form without content, of belief without knowledge.'
Jesus is the saviour of mankind, God made man, the son of God equal with the Father - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is born of a mortal virgin who after her death ascends to heaven and is honored as a divine being - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is born in a cave on December 25th or January 6th, as is Osisris-Dionysus.
The birth of Jesus is prophesied by a star - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is visited by the Magi, who are followers of Osiris-Dionysus.
The Magi bring Jesus gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh, which a sixth century BC Pagan tells us is the way to worship God.
Jesus turns water into wine at a marriage on the same day that Osiris-Dionysus was previously believed to have turned water into wine at a marriage.
Jesus is surrounded by 12 disciples - so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while crowds wave branches, as does Osiris-Dinoysus.
Jesus is hung on a tree or crucified, as is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus dies as a sacrifice to redeem the sins of the world - so does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus' corpse is wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh, as is the corpse of Osiris-Dionysus.
After his death Jesus descends to hell, then on the third day resurrects before his disciples and ascends into heaven, where he is enthroned by God and waits to reappear at the end of time as a divine judge, as does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus was said to have died and resurrected on exactly the same dates that the death and resurrection of Osiris-Dionysus were celebrated.
Jesus' empty tomb is visited by three women followers - Osiris-Dionysus also has three women followers who visit an empty cave.
do you reckon its possible that God/s are simply a manifestation of ourselves? that long ago we built sculptures depicting ourselves and over time it evolved into a worshipping of this anthropomorphic form as something divine and otherwordly?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say