Jesus?

ONCE DEVIDED

Gern Blansten wrote:

I always found it interesting that given all the writers around the supposed time of "Christ", no one wrote about him.

No one

If I were a writer back then and witnessed some of that shit I'd be writing....just sayin

And don't pull out the crap in Josephus' writings because that was written probably 60 years after the supposed time of Christ

apparently there is up to 20 gospels\books more than whats in the bible. its just they didnt fit into peters take on jesus‘s life
4 books in the bible isnt much is it

ajedigecko

Jesus is who He said He is, or He is not. simple enough?

Byrnzie

ajedigecko wrote:

Jesus is who He said He is, or He is not. simple enough?

Who's He?

ajedigecko

Byrnzie wrote:

ajedigecko wrote:

Jesus is who He said He is, or He is not. simple enough?

Who's He?

you put up the fascade of being well read....you can figure it out.

Byrnzie

ajedigecko wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

ajedigecko wrote:

Jesus is who He said He is, or He is not. simple enough?

Who's He?

you put up the fascade of being well read....you can figure it out.

I think the word you're looking for is 'facade'. :ugeek:

ajedigecko

go and be a leader... start the new revolution,in the streets, for the meek and humble of china.

or just keep typing about it. be safe out there, billy.

Byrnzie

peacefrompaul

Byrnzie wrote:

Fascinating

DriftingByTheStorm

Byrnzie ...
I wouldn't get too pissy over "christianity" or "jesus".
and i find attempts to "knock" "him" (his teachings) as old \ outdated \ wrong to be simply ignorant.
obviously a *literal* interpretation can be problematic, depending on your bent, but see here, from Clement of Alexandria, for reference to your OP regarding Christ as another representation of "the mysteries". [all emphasis, italics, etc, mine]

"As for Mark, then, during Peter's stay in Rome he wrote an account of the Lord's doings, not, however, declaring all of them, nor yet hinting at the secret ones, but selecting what he thought most useful for increasing the faith of those who were being instructed. But when Peter died a martyr, Mark came over to Alexandria, bringing both his own notes and those of Peter, from which he transferred to his former book the things suitable to whatever makes for progress toward knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue, lead the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of that truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum, he prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautiously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries." - Clement of Alexandria, Letter to Theodore regarding the "secret gospel" of Mark, circa 200AD.

This is just one of several easily notable examples of early church "fathers" indicating in no uncertain terms their own understanding that Christianity itself was either an extension of the mysteries, or an attempt at "purifying" or "redeeming" them in some way.

In other words, in much the same way that you probably feel Christianity today has gone astray of its message. So to were the "Gospels of Jesus" an attempt at communicating to the thinking & religiously inclined individual the very same dissatisfaction with the then current state of "The Mysteries", themselves. The story is, I believe, an attempt at actually re-explaining "the mysteries" to the masses in "clearer" or "more plain" language. As Clement says, veiling that which need not be told to the those who can not hear anyway.

The complaint of Jesus was that the religious establishment (those intrusted with the Jewish "mysteries") had gone astray of their heirophantic roles, no longer served as true leaders of the people, and were no more than pious dolts who clamored for vanity and pomp.

I'm not sure if anyone on this board really understands what "The Mysteries" were\are ... hell, i'm not sure if ANYone really knows ... they were inviolable secrets for which you could and were put to death for divulging, should you - as an initiate - speak of them to the profane\uninitiated.

For the sake of comparative relgion \ this thread \ understanding what the fuck we're talking about \ and getting just how the Gospel of Jesus is a veritable mimic of "the mysteries" i will explain briefly and in the most plain language possible the most brief and skeletal outline of what I understand "The Mysteries" to be, through having done a stupid (though not scholarly, certainly) amount of independent study.

"The Mysteries", both the Egyptian, and then later, the "Greek" (they were the same, literally just imported and "converted" to the local lexicon) is a systematized belief set put forth by Those Who Claim To Know (ie. "The Initiates") to others who would come forth seeking this knowledge ("knock on the door") claiming that man in his flesh is but the vessel for an immortal soul.

The knowledge of this immortal soul has been hidden from man, in his individualized mortal state of flesh, so that he may descend in to the very lowest state of matter itself, and experience "the world" (or something like this, anyhow) ...

BUT ... MAN CAN REGAIN THIS KNOWLEDGE OF HIS SOUL,
and here i want to emphasize that The Mystery Schools are EMPHATIC that this is not some sort of flowery poetic bullshit language ... rather yet, through systematized study, ritualistic meditation, and eventually through A SERIES (AND THERE ARE ***SEVEN IN TOTAL*** see clement's letter above) OF INITIATIONS regain access to this knowledge of his "inner" states of self. Regain TANGIBLE knowledge of god, of god's plan, and function "OUT OF BODY" in "other worlds", to transcend the physical self and function through his truer self\selfs on other planes of existence. Think of Obi-Wan-Kanobi or Yoda, because actually that is EXACTLY what the star wars trilogy is about. I am actually pretty well convinced that George Lucas was DIRECTLY trying to communicate esoteric "truth" in his films. Whether this was simply by way of a more innocent\naive reading of Jung and Campbell, or if he actually understood that Jung (if not Campbell) was deeply steeped in Esoteric Tradition himself, i do not however know.

I know this sounds like absolute horseshit, but i swear to you this is what is stated emphatically in every branch of Esotericism i have encountered (masonry, rosicrucianism, arcane school, etc).

The first 3 initiations have to do with gaining knowledge and eventually control over
1. the physical body (etheric plane)
2. the emotional body (astral plane)
3. the causal body (mental plane)

At the 3rd Initiation, you DIE AND ARE RESURRECTED, and are shown in REAL TERMS that death is but an illusion ... (this is what the esoteric traditions claim to be the real purpose of the "sarcophagus" in the great pyramid ... to take your 3rd initiation, and be shown the illusion of death in, to lie still for 3 days and die in) ...

there are then, beyond the 3rd initiation four further planes
4. the Budhic
5. the Atmic
6. the Monadic
7 and the seventh plane which is the ultimate oneness with the godhead itself (that's my shitty understanding, anyhow) ...

Well, when you start studying esoteric literature you start to truly see just how much in the Jesus gospels is an attempt at conveying much of the meaning behind this type of thought TO THE MASSES without "saying too much". As well, the story\stories is a massive critique of the existing religio-political power structure that grew up around these original mysteries, held them from the people, held that knowledge OVER the people, and ABUSED the power they had trusted in them, from god, directly. "Jesus" believed that it was come the age for ALL to learn the secrets of the soul and the true way. Whether you take the stories as factual or not, the writer behind those stories were trying to convey this notion to the lay people in as best a way possible FOR THE TIME.

I dunno.
Prolly sounds like a rambling mess to ya'll.

Byrnzie

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Byrnzie ...
I wouldn't get too pissy over "christianity" or "jesus".
and i find attempts to "knock" "him" (his teachings) as old \ outdated \ wrong to be simply ignorant.
obviously a *literal* interpretation can be problematic, depending on your bent, but see here, from Clement of Alexandria, for reference to your OP regarding Christ as another representation of "the mysteries". [all emphasis, italics, etc, mine]

"As for Mark, then, during Peter's stay in Rome he wrote an account of the Lord's doings, not, however, declaring all of them, nor yet hinting at the secret ones, but selecting what he thought most useful for increasing the faith of those who were being instructed. But when Peter died a martyr, Mark came over to Alexandria, bringing both his own notes and those of Peter, from which he transferred to his former book the things suitable to whatever makes for progress toward knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue, lead the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of that truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum, he prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautiously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries." - Clement of Alexandria, Letter to Theodore regarding the "secret gospel" of Mark, circa 200AD.

This does nothing to explain why the early Church Fathers decided to omit all teachings relating to the Gnostic Gospels - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha

The gnostics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic emphasized an individual connection with 'God', with the higher powers, or the spiritual. The Church Fathers didn't like this, as they preferred all communion with 'God' to be mediated through themselves, and through the Church. Therefore all of the gospels with a mystical, or Gnostic character, where ostracized from the New Testament.

mysticweed

my thoughts on jesus still reflect my upbringing as a southern baptist
it still remains the biggest problem i have with christianity
the christians i have known
to be a christian you must believe in the virgin birth and the resurrection
the words of christ
the teachings of christ
fly right out the fucking window
blessed are the peacemakers?
blessed are the merciful?
please

mysticweed

mysticweed wrote:

my thoughts on jesus still reflect my upbringing as a southern baptist
it still remains the biggest problem i have with christianity
the christians i have known
to be a christian you must believe in the virgin birth and the resurrection
the words of christ
the teachings of christ
fly right out the fucking window
blessed are the peacemakers?
blessed are the merciful?
please

The Bible teaches Jesus said
to turn the other cheek
Blessed are the peacemakers
Blessed are the meek

Peace and light should rule your life
Try not to cause trouble
Try not to cause strife

But generosity abounds only
when we celebrate his birth
And colored eggs and chocolate
will not measure any worth

The virgin birth and resurrection
are fable and myth, I’m sure
Ceremony and ritual mean naught
Just that your heart beats pure

I believe Jesus would be sickened
by the horrors done in his name
As blasphemers are tortured, witches burned
and heretics are hanged

How can these things happen?
then be placed upon his head?
After all, blessed are the merciful
At least
that’s what Jesus said

PJ_Soul

Byrnzie wrote:

satansbed wrote:

didn't finish it cause it doesn't matter what it's based on its all a crock of shite anyway

It's based on the historical evidence.

+1. But sometimes certain folks think religious stories trump fact. Strokes me as very weird, but I guess the term "ignorance is bliss" is one of the truest things of all!

aerial

Idris wrote:

cajunkiwi wrote:

So... if god and the devil actually do exist... and the stuff from the bible is true... where are they now? God apparently used to talk to people all the time. He used to smite people on a regular basis, didn't he? Where's the big booming voice from the heavens?

I used to go to church on a regular basis as a kid, and then stopped. Cold turkey. There were far too many flaws and WTF moments for my liking. Science provides concrete answers and examples that don't change and can be seen every day. I'll take those explanations over "A magical guy in the sky did it" any day of the week. Religions all stemmed from the same place - primitive societies trying to figure out why things were the way they were. They didn't have access to the resources we have now, so they made up stories to explain things. I REALLY fell out of love with religion when I saw what it did to people who didn't believe those stories over the years. "Oh, you think the earth revolves around the sun? Heretic! Liar! Blasphemer! Lock him up!"

Atheists and agnostics never committed genocide and never locked up scientists, to the best of my knowledge.

Things in science change all the time, and when they get the Hadron Collider working properly, things will change again.

Maybe you should go to a Jewish Synagogue? A Hindu Temple? A muslim Mosque? All your wtf moments you had, that's a good start, work on them.

The great cop out is to look at the people crying Heretic! Liar! Blasphemer! Lock him up!" and to use that, even an atoms worth of that as a decision against your belief in God or the religions sent down, or made up.



Perhaps a mistake you are making is looking for the big booming voice in the heavens (as you say), rather than looking for the soft whisper in your heart?

catefrances

i just watched the end of clash of the titans... man those ancient greek gods knew how to have fun... and by fun i mean fuck with us puny humans.

hedonist

mysticweed wrote:

mysticweed wrote:

my thoughts on jesus still reflect my upbringing as a southern baptist
it still remains the biggest problem i have with christianity
the christians i have known
to be a christian you must believe in the virgin birth and the resurrection
the words of christ
the teachings of christ
fly right out the fucking window
blessed are the peacemakers?
blessed are the merciful?
please

The Bible teaches Jesus said
to turn the other cheek
Blessed are the peacemakers
Blessed are the meek

Peace and light should rule your life
Try not to cause trouble
Try not to cause strife

But generosity abounds only
when we celebrate his birth
And colored eggs and chocolate
will not measure any worth

The virgin birth and resurrection
are fable and myth, I’m sure
Ceremony and ritual mean naught
Just that your heart beats pure

I believe Jesus would be sickened
by the horrors done in his name
As blasphemers are tortured, witches burned
and heretics are hanged

How can these things happen?
then be placed upon his head?
After all, blessed are the merciful
At least
that’s what Jesus said

You rock.

riotgrl

Have any of you checked out the writings (or Netflix has the documentary) about Joseph Campbell? He couches Christianity and religion in general as humans needing to believe in a myth. That we have a story to live and it has to be something so Christianity might as well be the way we explain the world. Most of the modern religions of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, et al really are just different variations upon the same story or myth. Campbell parallels nicely with the Daniel Quinn book Ishmael if you've read it.

peacefrompaul

catefrances wrote:

i just watched the end of clash of the titans... man those ancient greek gods knew how to have fun... and by fun i mean fuck with us puny humans.

Poseidon was a bad ass.

Byrnzie

riotgrl wrote:

Have any of you checked out the writings (or Netflix has the documentary) about Joseph Campbell? He couches Christianity and religion in general as humans needing to believe in a myth. That we have a story to live and it has to be something so Christianity might as well be the way we explain the world. Most of the modern religions of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, et al really are just different variations upon the same story or myth. Campbell parallels nicely with the Daniel Quinn book Ishmael if you've read it.

I've been intending to read his book 'The Hero With A Thousand faces' for a long time. I've got the documentary though - haven't got around to watching that yet either. I will do soon though.

know1

Jesus was pretty anti-government as well.

Government does not have to be the source of help to people.