You're probably right. I just think that if someone murdered one of my gorgeous daughters I'd like them to come to an extremely gruesome end.
Me too, but when the time comes, would you be able to actually 'flip the switch' and watch someone die, knowing you have killed him/her and therefore lowering yourself at that person's level? I don't think I could. And what after? Your daughters still gone, your pain still there but now you are also a murderer (though 'legal')....
I don't think it's about "lowering your self to that persons level" for me it's a question of how will I answer to Jesus when my time to pass has come, I also believe that under the right circumstances we all or most all have the ability to kill, maybe not live with it but if it were in your control to choose you or a loved one against a person intent on killing you or loved one I think most of us would pull the trigger to save our selfs and when a killer as vile as these two are sentenced to death thats exactly what is happening,it could be you or your loved one who's life is being saved from the hands of a twisted killer.
You're probably right. I just think that if someone murdered one of my gorgeous daughters I'd like them to come to an extremely gruesome end.
Me too, but when the time comes, would you be able to actually 'flip the switch' and watch someone die, knowing you have killed him/her and therefore lowering yourself at that person's level? I don't think I could. And what after? Your daughters still gone, your pain still there but now you are also a murderer (though 'legal')....
I don't think it's about "lowering your self to that persons level" for me it's a question of how will I answer to Jesus when my time to pass has come, I also believe that under the right circumstances we all or most all have the ability to kill, maybe not live with it but if it were in your control to choose you or a loved one against a person intent on killing you or loved one I think most of us would pull the trigger to save our selfs and when a killer as vile as these two are sentenced to death thats exactly what is happening,it could be you or your loved one who's life is being saved from the hands of a twisted killer.
Godfather.
self defense is self preservation.
living where i do i have no choice in whether i pull the trigger.. they took our guns away. but i can assure you that i will do everything in my power to defend my children, my grandchild and my own self and i will feel no compunction in doing so. this is self defense.
however... after the fact it is not my place to murder a murderer. its not a religious stance for me (as you all know). it is about my not having the right to take anothers life. or be complicit in the taking of a life. i simply wont do it. and the only person i need answer to is myself.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You're probably right. I just think that if someone murdered one of my gorgeous daughters I'd like them to come to an extremely gruesome end.
Me too, but when the time comes, would you be able to actually 'flip the switch' and watch someone die, knowing you have killed him/her and therefore lowering yourself at that person's level? I don't think I could. And what after? Your daughters still gone, your pain still there but now you are also a murderer (though 'legal')....
You don't have to pull the switch. There are people that apply for jobs like this and get paid well. Probably don't mind doing it either. Just because you may support it doesn't mean you need to be the one to do it.
quote from cate: however... after the fact it is not my place to murder a murderer. its not a religious stance for me (as you all know). it is about my not having the right to take anothers life. or be complicit in the taking of a life. i simply wont do it. and the only person i need answer to is myself.
there are many rights that we as people have and living in a safe inviorment is only one.
quote from cate: however... after the fact it is not my place to murder a murderer. its not a religious stance for me (as you all know). it is about my not having the right to take anothers life. or be complicit in the taking of a life. i simply wont do it. and the only person i need answer to is myself.
there are many rights that we as people have and living in a safe inviorment is only one.
Godfather.
so what?? do you think thats going to change my stance??
i dont expect to be trespassed against but you know it happens. do i have the right to take a life?? unless it is in self defense , no i do not. this is my opinion.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I don't think it's about "lowering your self to that persons level" for me it's a question of how will I answer to Jesus when my time to pass has come, I also believe that under the right circumstances we all or most all have the ability to kill, maybe not live with it but if it were in your control to choose you or a loved one against a person intent on killing you or loved one I think most of us would pull the trigger to save our selfs and when a killer as vile as these two are sentenced to death thats exactly what is happening,it could be you or your loved one who's life is being saved from the hands of a twisted killer.
Godfather.
I so very much respect and admire you Godfather and I see your point, although I do not condone capital punishment, I believe life imprisonment to be the appropriate punishment.
We all would like to abolish evil but that is as impossible as abolishing our God.
Revenge killing is not self defense, the heart and mind is in an entirely different place.
I don't feel I am answering to Jesus when I leave here but I am to be embraced in his love.
Love is the essence of God, it is within us all.
Love is not always easy to give, it is difficult to find for those we think do not deserve it.
But we must try.
Hate and violence brings more hate and violence. A cycle that must be broken.
We must work towards love and peace even in the case of the vile.
There is much power in evil and to combat evil we must nuture the great power we have in love.
quote from cate: however... after the fact it is not my place to murder a murderer. its not a religious stance for me (as you all know). it is about my not having the right to take anothers life. or be complicit in the taking of a life. i simply wont do it. and the only person i need answer to is myself.
there are many rights that we as people have and living in a safe environment is only one.
Godfather.
so what?? do you think thats going to change my stance??
i don't expect to be trespassed against but you know it happens. do i have the right to take a life?? unless it is in self defense , no i do not. this is my opinion.
I'm half way with you on your opinion, I just get pissed when I hear about crimes like this and the person's are out of prison in 10-20 years or walk on a technicality, nobody has the right to take another life but what happens when they do ? should the punishment fit the crime ? ,but I do understand your view on this cate.
I don't think it's about "lowering your self to that persons level" for me it's a question of how will I answer to Jesus when my time to pass has come, I also believe that under the right circumstances we all or most all have the ability to kill, maybe not live with it but if it were in your control to choose you or a loved one against a person intent on killing you or loved one I think most of us would pull the trigger to save our selfs and when a killer as vile as these two are sentenced to death thats exactly what is happening,it could be you or your loved one who's life is being saved from the hands of a twisted killer.
Godfather.
I so very much respect and admire you Godfather and I see your point, although I do not condone capital punishment, I believe life imprisonment to be the appropriate punishment.
We all would like to abolish evil but that is as impossible as abolishing our God.
Revenge killing is not self defense, the heart and mind is in an entirely different place.
I don't feel I am answering to Jesus when I leave here but I am to be embraced in his love.
Love is the essence of God, it is within us all.
Love is not always easy to give, it is difficult to find for those we think do not deserve it.
But we must try.
Hate and violence brings more hate and violence. A cycle that must be broken.
We must work towards love and peace even in the case of the vile.
There is much power in evil and to combat evil we must nuture the great power we have in love.
thank you Pandi, I love you ..in a internet buddy kind of way. you are right .
quote from cate: however... after the fact it is not my place to murder a murderer. its not a religious stance for me (as you all know). it is about my not having the right to take anothers life. or be complicit in the taking of a life. i simply wont do it. and the only person i need answer to is myself.
there are many rights that we as people have and living in a safe environment is only one.
Godfather.
so what?? do you think thats going to change my stance??
i don't expect to be trespassed against but you know it happens. do i have the right to take a life?? unless it is in self defense , no i do not. this is my opinion.
I'm half way with you on your opinion, I just get pissed when I hear about crimes like this and the person's are out of prison in 10-20 years or walk on a technicality, nobody has the right to take another life but what happens when they do ? should the punishment fit the crime ? ,but I do understand your view on this cate.
Godfather.
oh i agree godfather. it pisses me off when life doesnt mean life, it means 20 years. what kind of bullshit is that? for me life means for the term of your natural life.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You're probably right. I just think that if someone murdered one of my gorgeous daughters I'd like them to come to an extremely gruesome end.
Me too, but when the time comes, would you be able to actually 'flip the switch' and watch someone die, knowing you have killed him/her and therefore lowering yourself at that person's level? I don't think I could. And what after? Your daughters still gone, your pain still there but now you are also a murderer (though 'legal')....
I don't think it's about "lowering your self to that persons level" for me it's a question of how will I answer to Jesus when my time to pass has come, I also believe that under the right circumstances we all or most all have the ability to kill, maybe not live with it but if it were in your control to choose you or a loved one against a person intent on killing you or loved one I think most of us would pull the trigger to save our selfs and when a killer as vile as these two are sentenced to death thats exactly what is happening,it could be you or your loved one who's life is being saved from the hands of a twisted killer.
Godfather.
I don't answer to Jesus so it's not an issue - I answer to myself. I also think we all have the ability to kill and yes, in your example, should someone be threatening my daughter or myself with death, I would probably save myself or my loved one in this manner (if there is no other way out) - self-defense. Not at all the same as coldly killing someone who is strapped, etc. - vile person or not. Not the same circumstances and, for me, not the same moral issue (though killing someone in self-defense would still pose a moral issue).
What if they shank a prison guard? Or another prisoner? Or start raping weak inmates?
But ANY criminal behind bars could do those things regardless if they committed murders or not. If those were reasons to kill them, then we should just kill everyone who commits a crime.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You're probably right. I just think that if someone murdered one of my gorgeous daughters I'd like them to come to an extremely gruesome end.
Me too, but when the time comes, would you be able to actually 'flip the switch' and watch someone die, knowing you have killed him/her and therefore lowering yourself at that person's level? I don't think I could. And what after? Your daughters still gone, your pain still there but now you are also a murderer (though 'legal')....
You don't have to pull the switch. There are people that apply for jobs like this and get paid well. Probably don't mind doing it either. Just because you may support it doesn't mean you need to be the one to do it.
I just get pissed when I hear about crimes like this and the person's are out of prison in 10-20 years or walk on a technicality, nobody has the right to take another life but what happens when they do ? should the punishment fit the crime ? ,but I do understand your view on this cate.
oh i agree godfather. it pisses me off when life doesnt mean life, it means 20 years. what kind of bullshit is that? for me life means for the term of your natural life.
I so very much respect and admire you Godfather and I see your point, although I do not condone capital punishment, I believe life imprisonment to be the appropriate punishment.
We all would like to abolish evil but that is as impossible as abolishing our God.
Revenge killing is not self defense, the heart and mind is in an entirely different place.
I don't feel I am answering to Jesus when I leave here but I am to be embraced in his love.
Love is the essence of God, it is within us all.
Love is not always easy to give, it is difficult to find for those we think do not deserve it.
But we must try.
Hate and violence brings more hate and violence. A cycle that must be broken.
We must work towards love and peace even in the case of the vile.
There is much power in evil and to combat evil we must nuture the great power we have in love.
I've been moving towards this line of thought lately. Even when a death sentence is handed down, it seems like it takes 15-20 years of appeals before execution. But the acts that the two defendants committed are so vile and evil it is hard to comprehend.
Argue as we might, it looks like the prosecutors are going for the death penalty and I really can't blame them.
What if they shank a prison guard? Or another prisoner? Or start raping weak inmates?
But ANY criminal behind bars could do those things regardless if they committed murders or not. If those were reasons to kill them, then we should just kill everyone who commits a crime.
The point I was trying to make is just because we lock these two "humans" up for life, they still have the capacity to cause pain and suffering. Factor in that the one killer has a rap sheet going back to 1980, I put the chances of peaceful rehabilitation very, very low. Actually, you don't even need to factor the past in . . . I think his last crime is enough proof.
I have absolutely no issue with letting these two turkeys fry. The greater problem I have with the death penalty is that it needs to be applied consistently, and doing so will inevitably lead to mistakes. The law must be equal for everyone afterall. Unfortunately, that also lends itself to the very real possibility that many innocent individuals will find themselves at the wrong end of a death sentence. We're all fallible. Juries and Judges are just as prone to errors as the rest of us; perhaps moreso given the emotional impact that most capital crimes have on people. I have a real issue with this.
In a case that is loaded with direct evidence, reaching a conclusion seems relatively easy. In situations where there is nothing other than circumstantial evidence and a few sketchy witnesses it is very possible that an innocent person may be wrongfully convicted. I'm just not convinced that throwing a few innocent souls under the bus to satisfy society's blood lust is a worthwhile tradeoff.
Both killers have asked for mercy as they offered to plead guilty in exchange for life sentences. Where was the mercy shown by them as both Jennifer and Hayley begged for their lives? Where was the mercy shown for 11 year old Micheala Petit as she was beaten, raped, photographed on a cell phone and left to die tied to her bed as her room was set on fire.
Both killers have asked for mercy as they offered to plead guilty in exchange for life sentences. Where was the mercy shown by them as both Jennifer and Hayley begged for their lives? Where was the mercy shown for 11 year old Micheala Petit as she was beaten, raped, photographed on a cell phone and left to die tied to her bed as her room was set on fire.
mercy is ours to give. imo it is like respect, it can not be requested... only given.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I don't think it's about "lowering your self to that persons level" for me it's a question of how will I answer to Jesus when my time to pass has come, I also believe that under the right circumstances we all or most all have the ability to kill, maybe not live with it but if it were in your control to choose you or a loved one against a person intent on killing you or loved one I think most of us would pull the trigger to save our selfs and when a killer as vile as these two are sentenced to death thats exactly what is happening,it could be you or your loved one who's life is being saved from the hands of a twisted killer.
Godfather.
I so very much respect and admire you Godfather and I see your point, although I do not condone capital punishment, I believe life imprisonment to be the appropriate punishment.
We all would like to abolish evil but that is as impossible as abolishing our God.
Revenge killing is not self defense, the heart and mind is in an entirely different place.
I don't feel I am answering to Jesus when I leave here but I am to be embraced in his love.
Love is the essence of God, it is within us all.
Love is not always easy to give, it is difficult to find for those we think do not deserve it.
But we must try.
Hate and violence brings more hate and violence. A cycle that must be broken.
We must work towards love and peace even in the case of the vile.
There is much power in evil and to combat evil we must nuture the great power we have in love.
thank you Pandi, I love you ..in a internet buddy kind of way. you are right .
Godfather.
I love you too Godfather,
You are one of the very easy people to love
you know, a lucky one.
Something most people want to be, a person that is loved and can love.
It is the very evil that for whatever reason or no reason can not "take" love.
They feed on fear and chaos. Their purpose is to kill love.
To take another's heart and bring it to anger and outrage is killing love.
They are strong negative energy, an aberration.
They should be pitied and locked away from society with the hopes
that they will break free from evil and learn love in their lifetime behind bars.
The motives of the heart we can not see or predict, we leave that for greater understanding.
But a lifetime behind bars can bring a change of heart.
Love may have time for conquest.
We can only hope.
1. Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University.
2. The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.
3. Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.
For years and years now I have tried to logically decide whether I am in favor of capital punishment or not. I have determined that I can not come to a conclusion. So for now, it just depends on my mood for the day.
As for this case, blow their motherfucking heads off.
You're probably right. I just think that if someone murdered one of my gorgeous daughters I'd like them to come to an extremely gruesome end.
Me too, but when the time comes, would you be able to actually 'flip the switch' and watch someone die, knowing you have killed him/her and therefore lowering yourself at that person's level? I don't think I could. And what after? Your daughters still gone, your pain still there but now you are also a murderer (though 'legal')....
I don't think it's about "lowering your self to that persons level" for me it's a question of how will I answer to Jesus when my time to pass has come, I also believe that under the right circumstances we all or most all have the ability to kill, maybe not live with it but if it were in your control to choose you or a loved one against a person intent on killing you or loved one I think most of us would pull the trigger to save our selfs and when a killer as vile as these two are sentenced to death thats exactly what is happening,it could be you or your loved one who's life is being saved from the hands of a twisted killer.
Godfather.
So what would Jesus do? I'm directly asking you, Godfather.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
So what would Jesus do? I'm directly asking you, Godfather.
The son of god would forgive them, they would fall to their knees and cry and love would enter their hearts. The romans however, would nail them to a cross.
So what would Jesus do? I'm directly asking you, Godfather.
The son of god would forgive them, they would fall to their knees and cry and love would enter their hearts. The romans however, would nail them to a cross.
The question is for whom do they cry? their victims or themselves? the latter being another crime towards humanity.
There must be love before forgiveness, to even forgive themselves.
If I were to justify capital punishment for criminals here... I would not be able to oppose the use of capital punishment in Iran. I oppose capital punishment in both America and Iran.
I understand these are horrible people that have no place in a civilized society and in no way lessen the level of evil in which they live. Put them in a place like Pelican Bay... where the worst of the worst will have to live with each other for the rest of their lives because they have proven that they cannot live amongst the rest of us.
I agree with all you say. However.
I think it's easy for us to sit at our computers in our comfortable chairs and dispense wisdom about the death penalty. The question I ask is what our opinion would be if it happened to our families.
...
I would hope that I would have the strength to forgive them... which doesn't mean letting them free to roam our streets. Forgiveness and justice are two different things. Spending the rest of your life behind the bars and concertina wired fences in a place like Pelican Bay is a vision of Hell i would never want to be a part of.
Killing them would not bring back the lives of loved ones lost.
But, to be fair and honest in answering your question... I don't know how I would feel and I hope that I never have to.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You have referenced Pelican Bay a few times here, the following is an excerpt from the letter I posted in my last post, I would be interested in your opinion.
A poor argument made by many of the abolitionists is that life in prison without the possibility of parole is a "worse" punishment than death-if they (the abolitionists) are so magnanimous and forgiving why are they opting for a punishment that is worse, i.e., life without the possibility of parole instead of the death penalty?
Comments
I don't think it's about "lowering your self to that persons level" for me it's a question of how will I answer to Jesus when my time to pass has come, I also believe that under the right circumstances we all or most all have the ability to kill, maybe not live with it but if it were in your control to choose you or a loved one against a person intent on killing you or loved one I think most of us would pull the trigger to save our selfs and when a killer as vile as these two are sentenced to death thats exactly what is happening,it could be you or your loved one who's life is being saved from the hands of a twisted killer.
Godfather.
kill children = attempt to rehab things.
kill puppies = burn the things.
people have lost their fn minds.
self defense is self preservation.
living where i do i have no choice in whether i pull the trigger.. they took our guns away. but i can assure you that i will do everything in my power to defend my children, my grandchild and my own self and i will feel no compunction in doing so. this is self defense.
however... after the fact it is not my place to murder a murderer. its not a religious stance for me (as you all know). it is about my not having the right to take anothers life. or be complicit in the taking of a life. i simply wont do it. and the only person i need answer to is myself.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You don't have to pull the switch. There are people that apply for jobs like this and get paid well. Probably don't mind doing it either. Just because you may support it doesn't mean you need to be the one to do it.
there are many rights that we as people have and living in a safe inviorment is only one.
Godfather.
so what?? do you think thats going to change my stance??
i dont expect to be trespassed against but you know it happens. do i have the right to take a life?? unless it is in self defense , no i do not. this is my opinion.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I so very much respect and admire you Godfather and I see your point, although I do not condone capital punishment, I believe life imprisonment to be the appropriate punishment.
We all would like to abolish evil but that is as impossible as abolishing our God.
Revenge killing is not self defense, the heart and mind is in an entirely different place.
I don't feel I am answering to Jesus when I leave here but I am to be embraced in his love.
Love is the essence of God, it is within us all.
Love is not always easy to give, it is difficult to find for those we think do not deserve it.
But we must try.
Hate and violence brings more hate and violence. A cycle that must be broken.
We must work towards love and peace even in the case of the vile.
There is much power in evil and to combat evil we must nuture the great power we have in love.
I'm half way with you on your opinion, I just get pissed when I hear about crimes like this and the person's are out of prison in 10-20 years or walk on a technicality, nobody has the right to take another life but what happens when they do ? should the punishment fit the crime ? ,but I do understand your view on this cate.
Godfather.
thank you Pandi, I love you ..in a internet buddy kind of way.
Godfather.
oh i agree godfather. it pisses me off when life doesnt mean life, it means 20 years. what kind of bullshit is that? for me life means for the term of your natural life.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I don't answer to Jesus so it's not an issue - I answer to myself. I also think we all have the ability to kill and yes, in your example, should someone be threatening my daughter or myself with death, I would probably save myself or my loved one in this manner (if there is no other way out) - self-defense. Not at all the same as coldly killing someone who is strapped, etc. - vile person or not. Not the same circumstances and, for me, not the same moral issue (though killing someone in self-defense would still pose a moral issue).
But ANY criminal behind bars could do those things regardless if they committed murders or not. If those were reasons to kill them, then we should just kill everyone who commits a crime.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I know I don't have to do it personally. :roll:
Maybe this answers your question.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Argue as we might, it looks like the prosecutors are going for the death penalty and I really can't blame them.
In a case that is loaded with direct evidence, reaching a conclusion seems relatively easy. In situations where there is nothing other than circumstantial evidence and a few sketchy witnesses it is very possible that an innocent person may be wrongfully convicted. I'm just not convinced that throwing a few innocent souls under the bus to satisfy society's blood lust is a worthwhile tradeoff.
mercy is ours to give. imo it is like respect, it can not be requested... only given.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You are one of the very easy people to love
you know, a lucky one.
Something most people want to be, a person that is loved and can love.
It is the very evil that for whatever reason or no reason can not "take" love.
They feed on fear and chaos. Their purpose is to kill love.
To take another's heart and bring it to anger and outrage is killing love.
They are strong negative energy, an aberration.
They should be pitied and locked away from society with the hopes
that they will break free from evil and learn love in their lifetime behind bars.
The motives of the heart we can not see or predict, we leave that for greater understanding.
But a lifetime behind bars can bring a change of heart.
Love may have time for conquest.
We can only hope.
1. Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University.
2. The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.
3. Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.
http://www.cheshireherald.com/node/927
killing is wrong. state sanctioned or not. killing is WRONG.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
As for this case, blow their motherfucking heads off.
So what would Jesus do? I'm directly asking you, Godfather.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
There must be love before forgiveness, to even forgive themselves.
I would hope that I would have the strength to forgive them... which doesn't mean letting them free to roam our streets. Forgiveness and justice are two different things. Spending the rest of your life behind the bars and concertina wired fences in a place like Pelican Bay is a vision of Hell i would never want to be a part of.
Killing them would not bring back the lives of loved ones lost.
But, to be fair and honest in answering your question... I don't know how I would feel and I hope that I never have to.
Hail, Hail!!!
A poor argument made by many of the abolitionists is that life in prison without the possibility of parole is a "worse" punishment than death-if they (the abolitionists) are so magnanimous and forgiving why are they opting for a punishment that is worse, i.e., life without the possibility of parole instead of the death penalty?