WestMemphis3 Question

vant0037

Gern Blansten wrote:

Actually the evidence has been around for years. That documentary came out in 1996.

Is it unusual to get a confession? People with normal IQ's will break under interrogation. Misskelley had an IQ of 72 at the time of this conviction. He was 17-years-old with the mentality of a second-grader. The IQ to be considered mentally retarded is 75.

Well said. TV crime-dramas have made Americans think that confessions mean everything. They mean little. If you know anything about mental illness, mental disability or low-function individuals, you know that a lot of their communication is based on "telling people what they want to hear." In other words, they say "yes" and nod a lot, even when they don't understand the question. They lack the cognitive skills to truly interact and communicate with others, so nodding and smiling, especially when under intense police pressure is not unusual.

vant0037

mrpink90 wrote:

2 girls also testified that they heard echols admit to the killings at a softball game shortly after the murders, which echols recently admitted that he might have done and chalked it up to being a dumb teenager. Does that make any sense?

Also a kid jason baldwin spent time in jail with testified that baldwin told him he did the crime.

So all 3 supposedly admitted to the killings (well 1 obviously definitely did, misskelley), whether you believe those people that testifed against echols and baldwin is another story. But the jury obviously believed it.

Eh...I'm a lawyer and I can say this: I don't trust a jury for anything. There's a reason "show" lawyers are popular (i.e. Johnny Cochrane etc). Juries love to see these guys in action, but can often miss crucial details or important evidence.

I saw that only to stress that what the jury might have believed was true in this case doesn't really make it true. With all the trial irregularities going on, its hard to say that the jury actually considered clean (untampered with), relevant and admissible evidence. Just because a jury reaches a verdict, doesn't always mean a trial was fair or that justice was served. Juries (mobs) used to convict (lynch) black men for talking to white women.

vant0037

josevolution wrote:

Plus they were represented by court appointed lawyers they usually do nothing for you to get good representation you have to have a good lawyer wich cost lots of money anybody remember the OJ trial .....these kids might as well had nobody on their side's ...

Well I'll be the first to say that the court-appointed attorneys on this case didn't do anything to help out...but as a former public defender, I take offense to the notion that public defenders don't do anything to help their clients. Not only are PDs overworked, but they're also underpaid. They may be stretched thin, but when it comes to education, experience and skills, they're pound for pound just as good as a private lawyer.

Blah

vant0037 wrote:

Well I'll be the first to say that the court-appointed attorneys on this case didn't do anything to help out...but as a former public defender, I take offense to the notion that public defenders don't do anything to help their clients. Not only are PDs overworked, but they're also underpaid. They may be stretched thin, but when it comes to education, experience and skills, they're pound for pound just as good as a private lawyer.

So if you ever get charged with a murder you want a public defender and won't hire a big time lawyer right?


Or ya goin wit da private torney? Bet I know which.

ajedigecko

of course you would hand over the information, but i would venture to think, you would not be in the company of such a person in the first place. the people that would associate with evil are of the type, that the cost of disclosing such information must out weigh the consequences of retaining the information.

depp/vedder/maines.......could have solved two problems, instead of the one. by going after the killer and putting the time/monies into finding the killer, the outcome could be a free damien and a killer found. versus having a free damien and a killer still in public.

vant0037

Beach Bum wrote:

vant0037 wrote:

Well I'll be the first to say that the court-appointed attorneys on this case didn't do anything to help out...but as a former public defender, I take offense to the notion that public defenders don't do anything to help their clients. Not only are PDs overworked, but they're also underpaid. They may be stretched thin, but when it comes to education, experience and skills, they're pound for pound just as good as a private lawyer.

So if you ever get charged with a murder you want a public defender and won't hire a big time lawyer right?


Or ya goin wit da private torney? Bet I know which.

Not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if you can't afford the $15,000-25,000 UP FRONT that it will cost you to hire a private lawyer on a murder charger (no joke - most private criminal defense lawyers don't do anything until paid) and you go with a public defender, you're in competent hands. PDs go to the same law schools, pass the same Bar Exams and generally have FAR MORE in court trial experience than the average private defense lawyer.

josevolution

vant0037 wrote:

josevolution wrote:

Plus they were represented by court appointed lawyers they usually do nothing for you to get good representation you have to have a good lawyer wich cost lots of money anybody remember the OJ trial .....these kids might as well had nobody on their side's ...

Well I'll be the first to say that the court-appointed attorneys on this case didn't do anything to help out...but as a former public defender, I take offense to the notion that public defenders don't do anything to help their clients. Not only are PDs overworked, but they're also underpaid. They may be stretched thin, but when it comes to education, experience and skills, they're pound for pound just as good as a private lawyer.

Ok i should of stated when it comes to murder charges the best bet is to hire a private lawyer so if i offended you i apologize ...

vant0037

josevolution wrote:

vant0037 wrote:

josevolution wrote:

Plus they were represented by court appointed lawyers they usually do nothing for you to get good representation you have to have a good lawyer wich cost lots of money anybody remember the OJ trial .....these kids might as well had nobody on their side's ...

Well I'll be the first to say that the court-appointed attorneys on this case didn't do anything to help out...but as a former public defender, I take offense to the notion that public defenders don't do anything to help their clients. Not only are PDs overworked, but they're also underpaid. They may be stretched thin, but when it comes to education, experience and skills, they're pound for pound just as good as a private lawyer.

Ok i should of stated when it comes to murder charges the best bet is to hire a private lawyer so if i offended you i apologize ...

Haha I'm not personally offended (turn of phrase actually), but I still don't think what you're saying is accurate. A public defender often has the same skills and education but far more experience than a private lawyer. It doesn't make sense then that just because you paid a private lawyer $20,000 to represent you that they are suddenly a "better lawyer" than the public defender. Richer maybe, but not a more qualified and capable lawyer. In the WM3 case, the fact that one of the lawyers didn't do a good job and happened to be a PD shouldn't be a reason to write off all PDs as bad lawyers.

I say that I "take offense" only because there aren't many lawyers who work harder than public defenders and yet people give them no respect.

electronblue

The Champ wrote:

Did any of the 3 West Memphis kids have an alibi?

this is also what i have been wondering.

Gern Blansten

electron blue wrote:

The Champ wrote:

Did any of the 3 West Memphis kids have an alibi?

this is also what i have been wondering.

http://paradiselost3.com/index.php?board=36.0

pickupyourwill

wolfamongwolves wrote:

pickupyourwill wrote:

detailed confession is an understatement. Those poor 8yr old boys. Screwing, anal rape, forced blow jobs, unthinkable cutting. If this is what he was coerced into saying, how evil the people behind it must be. All I can think is those poor 8 yr old boys. what they must have gone through! if evidence had shown all this rape...those poor boys! If one of them had been my son I think I would kill the people involved, but first have the crime done to them. Those poor little boys.

I don't think I will ever let my son out of my sight again.

I was sympathetic with you until you said that... Those are some pretty horrendous double standards you've got there.

I was talking out of anger--after having just read the detailed confession. it was definitely an eye-opening tear-jerker. I still think life in prison is better than the death penalty. I just hope they find the right guy/guys.

covered in bliss

Has any of the jurors ever talked about the trials? 24 people, many picked by the defense, and no one has really come forward and talked about deliberations.. what went down behind closed doors. Were they not allowed to or something?

I would LOVE to read about that stuff.

Cradles Broken Glass

covered in bliss wrote:

Has any of the jurors ever talked about the trials? 24 people, many picked by the defense, and no one has really come forward and talked about deliberations.. what went down behind closed doors. Were they not allowed to or something?

I would LOVE to read about that stuff.

The defense now has copies of many of the juror's notes and that is one of the things they are presenting as evidence. In both Damian and Jason's trials the jurors have notes about Jesse's confession, this was not suppose to be admitted into their trials, because they did not confess to the crime.

coachchris

Fact: Miskelly confessed they were killed early in the morning, around lunchtime and then after school and were tied up with brown rope.

Fact: Jessie has a solid alibi concerning his whereabouts with eyewitnesses throughout the entire day and the children were tied up with their own shoelaces.

Fact: The state of Arkansas has not paid for ANY of the DNA testing. This has all been paid for by the defendants (through donations and concert benefits etc) despite it being their constitutional right to have DNA testing completed by the state.

Fact: The DNA of not just *one* but *two* different individuals were found at the crime scene. This DNA does not belong to any of the three behind bars.

Fact: The prosecutors case depended on the confession which was not allowed to be admissable in court although according to juror notes and chart paper was listed as a con against the defense.

Fact: The prosecutors case depended on the children being stabbed by knife and the penis of one of the boys being carefully carved off by said knife.

Fact: The best forensic experts from around the world all agree that no knife was used at any point in time on the boys whether it be to stab or carve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBbdsZKRaTU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBbdsZKRaTU&NR=1

This in my eyes (and perhaps my eyes only judging by some of the comments on here) presents reasonable doubt and should warrant a fair trial.

IMO people even debating that they shouldn't be given a new trial simply haven't taken the time to do the research. Don't even bring up a confession because at no time was it to be introduced as evidence in the case of Jason and Damien.

Please watch the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT4KJxr_ ... re=related

If you still believe they are guilty after watching the above FACTS then nothing will ever change your mind :shock:

These people aren't schmucks who got their degrees online, they are the best in their fields from across the world!

Gern Blansten

wow....good stuff...thanks for posting

electronblue

Gern Blansten wrote:

electron blue wrote:

The Champ wrote:

Did any of the 3 West Memphis kids have an alibi?

this is also what i have been wondering.

http://paradiselost3.com/index.php?board=36.0

thanks!

covered in bliss

http://blog.law.northwestern.edu/bluhm/ ... e-cou.html

Interesting info on the juror misconduct issue.

tremors

vant0037 wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

Actually the evidence has been around for years. That documentary came out in 1996.

Is it unusual to get a confession? People with normal IQ's will break under interrogation. Misskelley had an IQ of 72 at the time of this conviction. He was 17-years-old with the mentality of a second-grader. The IQ to be considered mentally retarded is 75.

Well said. TV crime-dramas have made Americans think that confessions mean everything. They mean little. If you know anything about mental illness, mental disability or low-function individuals, you know that a lot of their communication is based on "telling people what they want to hear." In other words, they say "yes" and nod a lot, even when they don't understand the question. They lack the cognitive skills to truly interact and communicate with others, so nodding and smiling, especially when under intense police pressure is not unusual.

Very true.

I have suffered a number of acute psychotic episodes, exacerbated by stress, (and incarceration), and a ludicrous degree of scrutiny; and when in this altered perceptual mode, my reasoning, judgement, insight logic and rationality have gone completely out of the window, and I have said and done things which I would never have done were I lucid (as I am now). Also I have both co-habited with (in hospital) and worked with (supported professionally) many young people who variously suffer from what we in Britain would term 'learning disabilities', diverse mental health problems ,& impaired reasoning and judgement due to their emotional fragility (homelessness, instances of past abuse etc). In my case, (and in the case of these young people I have spent a lot of time with), trauma, post-traumatic shock, stress, can all greatly increase the loss of lucidity and 'reason' to the point where we can say and do things that are completely out of character - even compared with our usual standards.

My last psychotic episode was triggered probably by a massive amount of stress at work and in my personal life, and my reasoning and insight nosedived at an alarming rate, in fact plummeted to an extreme level of irrationality and 'altered-sense' in a matter of hours, rather than days. For those of us who are susceptible to poor mental health, triggers such as stress can be catastrophic and immediate, affecting our whole cognitive world. So people with fragile cognitive faculties can easily become much worse when under unusual amounts of pressure. I agree, nodding, smiling, appearing a certain way in these circumstances can be very misleading for those on the outside.

As an example from my own quite recent experience, I have found myself being 'interrogated' by psychiatrists, police and others trying to gauge and apprehend me, and been subjected to such unkindly and a sometimes even downright abusive level of 'tough questioning', incarceration and deprivation of things that are essential to normal living, that I have agreed to anything to put an end to it - to swallow whatever pills, to go wherever, to agree with whatever - whatever is being suggested (even if I don't believe the story). And I have done so just to get some relief. And this is simply during what would commonly be seen as either a 'routine arrest', or a generic 'mental health assessment'.

I guess the reason for me saying all this here and now is that I can easily imagine a young person with even moderate mental health problems or learning disabilities completely breaking down under a far more ruthless type of questioning.

When I look back on things I have said and done in those states I actually physically wince, and I wish I could reverse or retract them. Fortunately for me I have had the opportunity - with my career, with my return of sense etc. I can go back and make amends (though not for everything). However it does not take much to 'break down' anybody under interrogation - let alone those with fragile mental health or low cognitive ability. For my own part I have to throw my hands in the air pretty regularly to my friends and family and say 'Sorry - I really wasn't fully 'Compos Mentis' then'

derbydave

Paul David wrote:

THEBIBLEISTEN wrote:

I watched the interview on larry King last night and learned more about the case and everything but I still have alot of questions. Does anybody think its odd that one of the convicted guys actually confessed to the murders and gave details but wants it retracted because he has a low IQ? They never brought that up last night when Larry was interviewing the lawyer. Also, has any celebrities supported the victims familys with money or a concert? I just think its kinda odd that Johnny Depp goes up on stage and reads Mr. Echols writings with a fake english accent (hes american , right? ) and everyone applauds him and thinks hes so great. It sounded like the guy was reading for a part. These three guys were not saints and I think its kinda odd that 17 years later all this new evidence has shown up. I do applaud Eddies efforts but after watching last night, I have more questions than answers. What do others think?

Do what Eddie has been driving hard, including last night: educate yourself on the case. I knew basically nothing about it, until watching last night, and I want to learn more.

covered in bliss wrote:

Has any of the jurors ever talked about the trials? 24 people, many picked by the defense, and no one has really come forward and talked about deliberations.. what went down behind closed doors. Were they not allowed to or something?

I would LOVE to read about that stuff.

To ANYONE who is interested in learning more about this case or would like to read about the trial,
There is an excellent book:
Devil's Knot - The True Story of The West Memphis Three
Written by Mara Leveritt.
It's a good read and includes many of the topics discussed in this thread...
It also contains a WHOLE section of footnotes that support the author's findings, as well as the general facts of the case.
She also wrote:
The Boys On The Tracks
I haven't read this one yet, but may check it out now that my interest in the WM3 case has returned after the benefit last weekend.
I remember watching the documentary on HBO back in the "90's" and immediately wanted to know more about the case. When the follow-up doc came out...I had even more doubts about the confessions and verdicts.
I think the benefit concert had the exact effect they were hoping it would.
It's helping get the word out about the possible injustices in this case and raising awareness among the general public to, at the very least, create an intelligent argument between both sides of this tragic event.
Eddie is just asking for us to educate ourselves on this issue...I think it's the least we can do!! :ugeek:

Gern Blansten

I bought Devil's Knot saturday night....great book...thanks for the suggestion!!!