WestMemphis3 Question

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dasvidana wrote:

For those commenting on how weird Echols was, you have to remember that the whole community was full of people with little education, lots of alcohol and drug abuse, lots of mental illness, lots of family violence. The police zeroed in on Echols (interviewed him about the crime within 48 hours after the bodies were discovered) because his case worker suggested him to the police. The problem is that the police stopped looking at that point. If they had really done an investigation, they would have seen that lots of others in the neighborhood and within the families were at least as suspicious as the three that were convicted.

I just watched Paradise Lost last night, and I think there's no denying that Echols was weird by general social standards, and more so than the other two.

I'm actually from that region, so I know how the people are. I think your characterization of the "whole" community is an overstatement. I'm not really sure what your intention was, but I don't think it's helpful to stereotype the community just because the community stereotyped Echols.

It certainly did seem like the purpose of the investigation and prosecution was more about getting this conviction than finding the truth. I think there comes a point when people believe what they want to believe and see (and look for) only what they need to see to support their belief - and that point seemed to come pretty early on in this case.

dasvidana

I'm actually from that region, so I know how the people are. I think your characterization of the "whole" community is an overstatement. I'm not really sure what your intention was, but I don't think it's helpful to stereotype the community just because the community stereotyped Echols.

From what I understand, at least three of the six parents of the murdered children had prior police records for substance abuse, sexual abuse, or family violence. So the community I was referring to were the households immediately affected by this tragedy.

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dasvidana wrote:

scb wrote:

I'm actually from that region, so I know how the people are. I think your characterization of the "whole" community is an overstatement. I'm not really sure what your intention was, but I don't think it's helpful to stereotype the community just because the community stereotyped Echols.

From what I understand, at least three of the six parents of the murdered children had prior police records for substance abuse, sexual abuse, or family violence. So the community I was referring to were the households immediately affected by this tragedy.

And you're saying that makes Echols less "weird"? :?

dasvidana

scb wrote:

dasvidana wrote:

scb wrote:

I'm actually from that region, so I know how the people are. I think your characterization of the "whole" community is an overstatement. I'm not really sure what your intention was, but I don't think it's helpful to stereotype the community just because the community stereotyped Echols.

From what I understand, at least three of the six parents of the murdered children had prior police records for substance abuse, sexual abuse, or family violence. So the community I was referring to were the households immediately affected by this tragedy.

And you're saying that makes Echols less "weird"? :?

I'm saying he wasn't any more suspect than some others.

vant0037

He can be super social and still have anti-social personality disorder. From emedicine:
Antisocial personality disorder: Individuals with antisocial personality disorder display a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others and the rules of society. Onset must occur by age 15 years and includes the following features:

* Repeated violations of the law- check.
* Pervasive lying and deception- check.
* Physical aggressiveness- check.
* Reckless disregard for safety of self or others- check.
* Consistent irresponsibility in work and family environments- check.
* Lack of remorse- check.
He has also killed animals in the most brutal fashion, which is also a sign of a poor prognosis.

The boys were drained of blood. He likes to drink blood. Although that doesn't mean anything, I say lets throw him on the suspect list. Simple.

Were they "drained of blood?" This is a good exercise in what probably went on in the juror's minds, with a little prodding regarding Damien's personality. I've done plenty of research on the case and I've never read that the boys were "drained of blood." I believe the official autopsy report states that they died of "blood loss," but that's an entirely different consideration that being "drained of blood," as if by a vampire or in a ritualistic fashion. You can die of blood loss in surgery or a car accident, but that doesn't make the death "satanic." But once we start talking about Damien's past, satanism, rituals etc, inevitably people begin to make slight alterations in the events or the language of the case (i.e. "drained of blood" vs. "died of blood loss"), and then they begin to see conclusions that aren't there. And this isn't just semantics or misspeaking; if a juror were to mishear or twist a word, as you did, and suddenly believe that the boys were "drained of blood," they will reasonably conclude that a killing is "satanic" or "ritualistic. Then, when the juror is told about Damien's personality, behavior and unorthodox beliefs, of course they'll conclude he did it. But the reality is that the facts are thrown by the wayside. This slight alteration or twist of a phrase is a great example of the little things that went wrong in this case that helped corrupt the trial and create the illusion of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

Perhaps they weren't "drained of blood." But Damien likes to drink blood after cutting people, and the children were cut up pretty good. The reason Damien makes a good suspect has nothing to do with satanism. I don't suggest that the killings were done in a ritualistic, satanic manner. I simply believe that the murders were committed by a psychopath, which I'm sure you would agree with. Damien has been diagnosed with psychosis. Mixed with his anti-social personality disorder, his taste for human blood, and how his name was the first to pop into peoples heads for possible suspects, I say put him on the suspect list. It makes sense.

Again...you're conflating so many half-truths/possibilities. "Damien likes to drink blood after cutting people?" Proof? I've read that Damien's has talked about drinking blood; I've never read that he likes to do it, has done it or will do it. Certainly, there's no evidence that him saying "he likes it" means he's ever actually done it. BIG difference, especially when you're then saying "well the killings involved blood, so that means a guy who's talked about drinking blood is a good suspect."

"The murders were committed by a psychopath." Probably, but what does that prove? That we should be "looking for" psychopaths? What do psychopaths look like? Ted Bundy was a handsome law student. John Wayne Gacy dressed like a clown. The BTK killer worked in a church and was a "family man." Damien Echols fits none of those descriptions. So, if we should be looking for a psychopath, Damien is no better a spot to start than anyone else. In other words, psychopaths don't necessarily look any different than you or me, so why Damien? Because "...his name was the first to pop into people's heads..."? I'm going to stop you right there. The biased opinions of blue collar America and who they think probably brutally murdered 3 children -- without HARD evidence to support their ideas -- is no place to start making a suspect list. Ask a white community in 1930s Alabama who committed the rape of a white woman and see what kind of "reliable" answers you get.

I'm glad we agree that a new trial should be held. But you're mixing a lot of half-truths and unproven speculation to reach unfounded conclusions about Damien and his role in all this. What concerns me is that this is precisely what a jury likely did in the original trial.

Lostdogsinthegarden

vant0037 wrote:

He can be super social and still have anti-social personality disorder. From emedicine:
Antisocial personality disorder: Individuals with antisocial personality disorder display a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others and the rules of society. Onset must occur by age 15 years and includes the following features:

* Repeated violations of the law- check.
* Pervasive lying and deception- check.
* Physical aggressiveness- check.
* Reckless disregard for safety of self or others- check.
* Consistent irresponsibility in work and family environments- check.
* Lack of remorse- check.
He has also killed animals in the most brutal fashion, which is also a sign of a poor prognosis.

The boys were drained of blood. He likes to drink blood. Although that doesn't mean anything, I say lets throw him on the suspect list. Simple.

Were they "drained of blood?" This is a good exercise in what probably went on in the juror's minds, with a little prodding regarding Damien's personality. I've done plenty of research on the case and I've never read that the boys were "drained of blood." I believe the official autopsy report states that they died of "blood loss," but that's an entirely different consideration that being "drained of blood," as if by a vampire or in a ritualistic fashion. You can die of blood loss in surgery or a car accident, but that doesn't make the death "satanic." But once we start talking about Damien's past, satanism, rituals etc, inevitably people begin to make slight alterations in the events or the language of the case (i.e. "drained of blood" vs. "died of blood loss"), and then they begin to see conclusions that aren't there. And this isn't just semantics or misspeaking; if a juror were to mishear or twist a word, as you did, and suddenly believe that the boys were "drained of blood," they will reasonably conclude that a killing is "satanic" or "ritualistic. Then, when the juror is told about Damien's personality, behavior and unorthodox beliefs, of course they'll conclude he did it. But the reality is that the facts are thrown by the wayside. This slight alteration or twist of a phrase is a great example of the little things that went wrong in this case that helped corrupt the trial and create the illusion of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

Perhaps they weren't "drained of blood." But Damien likes to drink blood after cutting people, and the children were cut up pretty good. The reason Damien makes a good suspect has nothing to do with satanism. I don't suggest that the killings were done in a ritualistic, satanic manner. I simply believe that the murders were committed by a psychopath, which I'm sure you would agree with. Damien has been diagnosed with psychosis. Mixed with his anti-social personality disorder, his taste for human blood, and how his name was the first to pop into peoples heads for possible suspects, I say put him on the suspect list. It makes sense.

Again...you're conflating so many half-truths/possibilities. "Damien likes to drink blood after cutting people?" Proof? I've read that Damien's has talked about drinking blood; I've never read that he likes to do it, has done it or will do it. Certainly, there's no evidence that him saying "he likes it" means he's ever actually done it. BIG difference, especially when you're then saying "well the killings involved blood, so that means a guy who's talked about drinking blood is a good suspect."

"The murders were committed by a psychopath." Probably, but what does that prove? That we should be "looking for" psychopaths? What do psychopaths look like? Ted Bundy was a handsome law student. John Wayne Gacy dressed like a clown. The BTK killer worked in a church and was a "family man." Damien Echols fits none of those descriptions. So, if we should be looking for a psychopath, Damien is no better a spot to start than anyone else. In other words, psychopaths don't necessarily look any different than you or me, so why Damien? Because "...his name was the first to pop into people's heads..."? I'm going to stop you right there. The biased opinions of blue collar America and who they think probably brutally murdered 3 children -- without HARD evidence to support their ideas -- is no place to start making a suspect list. Ask a white community in 1930s Alabama who committed the rape of a white woman and see what kind of "reliable" answers you get.

I'm glad we agree that a new trial should be held. But you're mixing a lot of half-truths and unproven speculation to reach unfounded conclusions about Damien and his role in all this. What concerns me is that this is precisely what a jury likely did in the original trial.

Please read through exhibit 500 before posting things like this. Thank you.

vant0037

Perhaps they weren't "drained of blood." But Damien likes to drink blood after cutting people, and the children were cut up pretty good. The reason Damien makes a good suspect has nothing to do with satanism. I don't suggest that the killings were done in a ritualistic, satanic manner. I simply believe that the murders were committed by a psychopath, which I'm sure you would agree with. Damien has been diagnosed with psychosis. Mixed with his anti-social personality disorder, his taste for human blood, and how his name was the first to pop into peoples heads for possible suspects, I say put him on the suspect list. It makes sense.

Again...you're conflating so many half-truths/possibilities. "Damien likes to drink blood after cutting people?" Proof? I've read that Damien's has talked about drinking blood; I've never read that he likes to do it, has done it or will do it. Certainly, there's no evidence that him saying "he likes it" means he's ever actually done it. BIG difference, especially when you're then saying "well the killings involved blood, so that means a guy who's talked about drinking blood is a good suspect."

"The murders were committed by a psychopath." Probably, but what does that prove? That we should be "looking for" psychopaths? What do psychopaths look like? Ted Bundy was a handsome law student. John Wayne Gacy dressed like a clown. The BTK killer worked in a church and was a "family man." Damien Echols fits none of those descriptions. So, if we should be looking for a psychopath, Damien is no better a spot to start than anyone else. In other words, psychopaths don't necessarily look any different than you or me, so why Damien? Because "...his name was the first to pop into people's heads..."? I'm going to stop you right there. The biased opinions of blue collar America and who they think probably brutally murdered 3 children -- without HARD evidence to support their ideas -- is no place to start making a suspect list. Ask a white community in 1930s Alabama who committed the rape of a white woman and see what kind of "reliable" answers you get.

I'm glad we agree that a new trial should be held. But you're mixing a lot of half-truths and unproven speculation to reach unfounded conclusions about Damien and his role in all this. What concerns me is that this is precisely what a jury likely did in the original trial.

Please read through exhibit 500 before posting things like this. Thank you.

Exhibit 500 contains a lot of information that Damien says; what a person says is not proof, especially given the source (an angsty 18 year old with mental health issues and at-odds with parts of his community). Even if we took what Damien says to be true, what about the murders makes him a suspect? Were the kids killed in a ritualistic fashion? Was there evidence that their blood was consumed or drained?

Apparently, you're linking the statement that Damien says he likes to drink blood with a bloody murder. What part about the murder would cause you to say that Damien, with his mental health issues, makes him a "suspect?" If all you can point out is that "the murders were committed by a psychopath and Damien is a psychopath," you've got a lot to learn about logic.

So yeah, I've reviewed Exhibit 500 and it portrays a sick kid. I'm still missing the connection you're trying to make as to why he's any better suspect than other members of the community. Thank you.

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Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

Please read through exhibit 500 before posting things like this. Thank you.

Where might one be able to find this exhibit 500? Thank you.

Lostdogsinthegarden

scb wrote:

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

Please read through exhibit 500 before posting things like this. Thank you.

Where might one be able to find this exhibit 500? Thank you.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html

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Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

scb wrote:

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

Please read through exhibit 500 before posting things like this. Thank you.

Where might one be able to find this exhibit 500? Thank you.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html

Thank you. Sorry - I'm still trying to catch up on this thread and just now saw that you had already posted it. I'll have to read it later.

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

What do you guys think of exhibit 500? The celebrities who say this is about a kid being wrongfully convicted for just wearing black, listening to metal and reading Stephen King is just total bullshit.

About this statement... I know these three things you listed weren't the ONLY things considered by the jury. But I was shocked to see that wearing black, listening to metal, & reading Stephen King were actually presented in court as reasons to convict Damien, as if they were some kind of evidence of his guilt. Before watching the actual trial footage on the HBO documentary, I had thought it was just speculation that these things were held against him in the minds of the jurors, like how people sometimes speculate that someone's race subconsciously factors in to others' beliefs about whether he is a criminal. It would be outrageous to actually present someone's race in court as some kind of evidence that they would be likely to commit a horrible crime, but that is what the prosecution lawyer did with these three things (black, metal, & Stephen King) in Damien's trial. So, though it may not be the ONLY basis on which he was convicted, these celebrities are just stating fact when they say that it was used as "evidence" against him.

Lostdogsinthegarden

Although I agree with a lot of what you said, the celebrities still promote him as a happy-go-lucky kid who likes the "goth" culture. He really was not so happy-go-lucky in real life. He was pretty scary, actually. That's all I'm saying. It has absolutely no bearing on convicting him, however.

_

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

Although I agree with a lot of what you said, the celebrities still promote him as a happy-go-lucky kid who likes the "goth" culture. He really was not so happy-go-lucky in real life. He was pretty scary, actually. That's all I'm saying. It has absolutely no bearing on convicting him, however.

I haven't gotten the impression that people are saying he was happy-go-lucky - only that they are saying he's innocent.

coachchris

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

gecko wrote:

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:
'The only argument I'm trying to make is that he was a good suspect. That is all. He showed signs of conduct disorder as a child, and by definition, antisocial personality disorder once he reached the age of 18. Antisocial personality disorder is a far cry from someone wearing black and listening to metallica. A new trial needs to be done, however. And he should be freed.'

I didn't respond to anyone in particular, but if you ask, I recognised some of my peers in Damian, and remembered when we acted out at our age, pretended to be cool, did some stupid things, and got accused of worse things. We grew up in Pleasantville and none of us were abused as far as I know. I don't know anything about disorder names, but how is someone antisocial if he has friends, girlfriend, and won't stop yapping to everybody? Seems social to me.
One can name disorders, but I can read for myself, and all I see is kid trying to look scary and not scared.
I think he was wrongfully convicted, but what I think doesn't matter really, what matters is, if there is no proof of guilt, he shouldn't be on the death row.

He can be super social and still have anti-social personality disorder. From emedicine:
Antisocial personality disorder: Individuals with antisocial personality disorder display a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others and the rules of society. Onset must occur by age 15 years and includes the following features:

* Repeated violations of the law- check.
* Pervasive lying and deception- check.
* Physical aggressiveness- check.
* Reckless disregard for safety of self or others- check.
* Consistent irresponsibility in work and family environments- check.
* Lack of remorse- check.
He has also killed animals in the most brutal fashion, which is also a sign of a poor prognosis.

The boys were drained of blood. He likes to drink blood. Although that doesn't mean anything, I say lets throw him on the suspect list. Simple.

I've cut myself and sucked on the blood am I part of an occult?
Do you have a link that proves he killed animals?
The boys were "drained" of blood?
WHERE are you getting your information from?


I’m sick and tired of hearing things From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocritics All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth I’ve had enough of reading things By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me With just a pocketful of hope Money for dope Money for rope No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dickyIs gonna mother hubbard soft soap me With just a pocketful of soap Money for dope Money for rope I’m sick to death of seeing things From tight-lipped, condescending, mama’s little chauvinists All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth now I’ve had enough of watching scenes Of schizophrenic, ego-centric, paranoiac, prima-donnas All I want is the truth now Just gimme some truth No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me With just a pocketful of soap It’s money for dope Money for rope Ah, I’m sick and tired of hearing things From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrites All I want is the truth now Just gimme some truth now I’ve had enough of reading things By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians All I want is the truth now Just gimme some truth now All I want is the truth now Just gimme some truth now All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth

sickofit

Someone has posted this elsewhere on the board, but just as an FYI to those of you discussing the matter here, The Arkansas Supreme Court will live-stream the oral argument for Damien Echols' appeal on their website:

http://wm3org.typepad.com/blog/2010/09/ ... ments.html

From what I gather on the website, videos are archived for later viewing so you don't have to stress abt watching it live.

Lostdogsinthegarden

coachchris wrote:

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

gecko wrote:

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:
'The only argument I'm trying to make is that he was a good suspect. That is all. He showed signs of conduct disorder as a child, and by definition, antisocial personality disorder once he reached the age of 18. Antisocial personality disorder is a far cry from someone wearing black and listening to metallica. A new trial needs to be done, however. And he should be freed.'

I didn't respond to anyone in particular, but if you ask, I recognised some of my peers in Damian, and remembered when we acted out at our age, pretended to be cool, did some stupid things, and got accused of worse things. We grew up in Pleasantville and none of us were abused as far as I know. I don't know anything about disorder names, but how is someone antisocial if he has friends, girlfriend, and won't stop yapping to everybody? Seems social to me.
One can name disorders, but I can read for myself, and all I see is kid trying to look scary and not scared.
I think he was wrongfully convicted, but what I think doesn't matter really, what matters is, if there is no proof of guilt, he shouldn't be on the death row.

He can be super social and still have anti-social personality disorder. From emedicine:
Antisocial personality disorder: Individuals with antisocial personality disorder display a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others and the rules of society. Onset must occur by age 15 years and includes the following features:

* Repeated violations of the law- check.
* Pervasive lying and deception- check.
* Physical aggressiveness- check.
* Reckless disregard for safety of self or others- check.
* Consistent irresponsibility in work and family environments- check.
* Lack of remorse- check.
He has also killed animals in the most brutal fashion, which is also a sign of a poor prognosis.

The boys were drained of blood. He likes to drink blood. Although that doesn't mean anything, I say lets throw him on the suspect list. Simple.

I've cut myself and sucked on the blood am I part of an occult?
Do you have a link that proves he killed animals?
The boys were "drained" of blood?
WHERE are you getting your information from?


I’m sick and tired of hearing things From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocritics All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth I’ve had enough of reading things By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me With just a pocketful of hope Money for dope Money for rope No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dickyIs gonna mother hubbard soft soap me With just a pocketful of soap Money for dope Money for rope I’m sick to death of seeing things From tight-lipped, condescending, mama’s little chauvinists All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth now I’ve had enough of watching scenes Of schizophrenic, ego-centric, paranoiac, prima-donnas All I want is the truth now Just gimme some truth No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me With just a pocketful of soap It’s money for dope Money for rope Ah, I’m sick and tired of hearing things From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrites All I want is the truth now Just gimme some truth now I’ve had enough of reading things By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians All I want is the truth now Just gimme some truth now All I want is the truth now Just gimme some truth now All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth

Ugh. If you knew anything about the case besides the documentaries, then you would know where I'm getting my information from. Thanks for the song lyrics though.

coachchris

"Ugh. If you knew anything about the case besides the documentaries, then you would know where I'm getting my information from. Thanks for the song lyrics though."


No worries about the lyrics

I've done far more research on this then just the documentaries and I've never seen anything anywhere (I even joined a board that believes they are guilty in order to make my own judgement and hear both sides) that shows animals being killed by the accused or Damien "liked to drink blood" or that the blood was "drained" from the bodies. Sounds more like an episode of Dexter to me.

That said, if you can provide me a link to said facts I would be more then willing to do more research. Thanks in advance!

_

Lostdogsinthegarden wrote:

coachchris wrote:

I've cut myself and sucked on the blood am I part of an occult?
Do you have a link that proves he killed animals?
The boys were "drained" of blood?
WHERE are you getting your information from?

Ugh. If you knew anything about the case besides the documentaries, then you would know where I'm getting my information from. Thanks for the song lyrics though.

coachchris wrote:

I've done far more research on this then just the documentaries and I've never seen anything anywhere (I even joined a board that believes they are guilty in order to make my own judgement and hear both sides) that shows animals being killed by the accused or Damien "liked to drink blood" or that the blood was "drained" from the bodies. Sounds more like an episode of Dexter to me.

That said, if you can provide me a link to said facts I would be more then willing to do more research. Thanks in advance!

I would like to know the answers to the initial questions above too, please.

Also, Lostdogs, I read your "Exhibit 500" post a couple of days ago and thought it sounded disturbing. But then last night I clicked on the link you provided and it was not immediately obvious where your post came from. Could you be more specific about where the documentation of the things you posted can be found, please?