Four Israelis killed in shooting attack near Hebron

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  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    to Rafie and Dimitris, just to make it really clear..

    those people that were killed near Hebron were noncombatants, i don't condone their murder. resistance is legitimate but killing noncombatants sickens me. whether it be Israeli's OR Palestinians.

    and if i want to talk about the circumstances of the conflict that has lead us to these people sadly dying, then i will, whether you like it or not.

    unless of course you want everyone to just come into the thread and say these killings are wrong, offer no other comment and then move on to the next thread.

    or is it only non Israeli/Palestinian threads where it's acceptable for the conversation to evolve?
    you are smart..im pretty sure that you understand exactly what im saying..im not the one to tell you what to post and stop where i like ...its a murder..no excuse..put them in a fair trail......
    the funny is that when a murder from israelians kill a palaistine its a murder...
    and when palaistine kill an israelian its a part of war and resistance,,this is what i dont like...
    like those israelian murderers on the ships that try to convince us that they are defenting their boards
    .as i said before..bad-evil..is everywhere........
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,470
    rafie wrote:
    Triumphantangel, I apologize if I did not make my self clear in my previous post. I did not mean to imply that you accept these murders or condone them. My point was that as someone who clearly values human life on all sides, you at times let your political beliefs on the subject divert you from the tragedies done to "the other side". I have seen you start numerous threads about the things that Israel does to the Palestinians and put the full blame on the Israeli side.
    4 people were murdered in cold blood. One of them was pregnant. 6 orphans under the age of 20 are left behind due to this. If it was 4 Palestinians murdered in the exact same circumstances you would be "going nuts" and bashing Israel and Israels policy/government/society and I would have no problem with that, because this is something you believe in deeply (or so I recon from my interactions with you on the board here).
    My problem with your comments here was not the "evolution of the thread" as you put it, but at the lightning speed of such "evolution" in your posts. Excluding that 1 sentence you posted on page 2 (which was kind of limp in my opinion) saying that the murder sickens you, all your other posts here were centered around "putting the blame back on Israel" (at least in my eyes).
    I in no way saying that my country and government are clean from all blame, not at all, but as I have said in the past numerous times, this is a complicated situation that will only be solved once the finger pointing is put aside and actual dialogue begins. Hopefully this will start this week in Washington.
    she condemned the murders!! what more do you want? was the condemnation not strong enough in your opinion? i condemned them as well. i was the first pro palestinian to do so in this thread if you will look back. do you want me to point out the countless instances where israeli forces have done the same ting? do you recall the flotilla? how about Rachel Corrie? blood spilled for no reason at all. did you condemn your own government in those cases or did you make excuses for their actions? truth is, her comments are necessary because it points to the true root cause that these situations occur. and there can be no solution, no progress, and no end to this if the true context of things is not discussed. we live in a world where all the media is filtered and it is heavily pro-israel and anti palestine and anti muslim. people like TA who actually communicate the real story of the situation are an invaluable resource for those of us living with a filtered media. and you are right, if it was the other way around I would be going crazy bashing israel's policies because where does it end? they are committing atrocities with the blockade, the limiting of water and building supplies and aid, and going against international law with the settlements. you can not discuss peace if you do not discuss the human rights abuses that israel's government is carrying out.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

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  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    rafie wrote:
    Triumphantangel, I apologize if I did not make my self clear in my previous post. I did not mean to imply that you accept these murders or condone them. My point was that as someone who clearly values human life on all sides, you at times let your political beliefs on the subject divert you from the tragedies done to "the other side". I have seen you start numerous threads about the things that Israel does to the Palestinians and put the full blame on the Israeli side.
    4 people were murdered in cold blood. One of them was pregnant. 6 orphans under the age of 20 are left behind due to this. If it was 4 Palestinians murdered in the exact same circumstances you would be "going nuts" and bashing Israel and Israels policy/government/society and I would have no problem with that, because this is something you believe in deeply (or so I recon from my interactions with you on the board here).
    My problem with your comments here was not the "evolution of the thread" as you put it, but at the lightning speed of such "evolution" in your posts. Excluding that 1 sentence you posted on page 2 (which was kind of limp in my opinion) saying that the murder sickens you, all your other posts here were centered around "putting the blame back on Israel" (at least in my eyes).
    I in no way saying that my country and government are clean from all blame, not at all, but as I have said in the past numerous times, this is a complicated situation that will only be solved once the finger pointing is put aside and actual dialogue begins. Hopefully this will start this week in Washington.
    If you want to take these shootings out of context then go ahead. Just don't wrap it in a disguise like you are doing it for humanitarian purposes. You ignoring the huge role Israel plays in killings like these by continuing the illegal occupation and oppression of Palestinians is just as political as us assigning blame to Israel for these. They might as well have pulled the trigger themselves. The actions of a few irrational Palestinian groups that carry out attacks like these in no way compares to the systematic destructive policies carried out by the entire state of Israel. People need to stop equating the Palestinians with Israel, one is the occupier and one is being occupied, they are not equal. One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Palestinians do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being occupied. if you want their actions to end, end the occupation. this israel has refused to do for 43 years now.

    to try to argue to ignore the political aspect of these killings is illogical and ignoring of reality.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    _outlaw wrote:
    to try to argue to ignore the political aspect of these killings is illogical and ignoring of reality.
    it's difficult for me to come into a thread like this and just comment on the murders, which i've already said is just horrible. heartbreaking for the families and orphans left behind. just terrible. it's difficult because it's impossible to ignore the political aspect of these killings.

    you know, i was watching Hillary Clinton's condemnation of the actions yesterday (and rightly so), and it just made me really sad to listen to her words because i couldn't help but think how the US Government has blood on their hands too. if the US stopped unconditionally supporting Israel's cruel and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people, contrary to what most of the civilized world thinks, and showed as much outrage as when innocent Palestinians are murdered, and actually did something to help these people, then perhaps we would not be where we are today.

    Israel needs to stop pretending like they've done everything they can, and have no idea why there is violence.
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    and can Israel please not use this as an excuse for another massacare like this. please? plenty of orphans here too.

    December 2008 - January 2009 Attack on Gaza

    Palestinians & Israelis Killed in Gaza 12/27/08 - 1/18/09
    gazawarchart.jpg

    Palestinian & Israeli Children Killed in Gaza 12/27/08 - 1/18/09
    gazawarkids.jpg

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dec08.html
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    _outlaw wrote:
    One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Palestinians do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being occupied. if you want their actions to end, end the occupation. this israel has refused to do for 43 years now.

    One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Israelis do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being attacked. if you want their actions to end, end the terror. this the Palestinians have refused to do for 63 years now.

    You think that everything is on Israel, that at the end of the day all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what the Palestinians do, is on Israel. There are those that have exactly the opposite view, that all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what Israel does, is on the Palestinians. They will tell you that the conflict has nothing to do with the occupation, that it is really about Palestinian and Arab rejection of Israel's existence and their desire to undo it, and they will point to years of war and terrorism predating the occupation to prove their point.

    Everyone is responsible for their actions. Saying that the occupation is the root cause of Palestinian terrorism excuses the Palestinians of any responsibility for their actions (and ignores all the evidence that suggests that the occupation is only ONE reason for Palestinian terrorism). The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions. Resistance to occupation need not take the form of terrorism. Real, adult, thinking and reasoning people made a choice to commit murder. They were not forced to do so. Peace will require that both sides take responsibility for their own. If the mindset on either side is that they are justified in all their actions because of the wrongs of the other side there will never be peace.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • rafie
    rafie Posts: 2,160
    yosi wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Palestinians do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being occupied. if you want their actions to end, end the occupation. this israel has refused to do for 43 years now.

    One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Israelis do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being attacked. if you want their actions to end, end the terror. this the Palestinians have refused to do for 63 years now.

    You think that everything is on Israel, that at the end of the day all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what the Palestinians do, is on Israel. There are those that have exactly the opposite view, that all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what Israel does, is on the Palestinians. They will tell you that the conflict has nothing to do with the occupation, that it is really about Palestinian and Arab rejection of Israel's existence and their desire to undo it, and they will point to years of war and terrorism predating the occupation to prove their point.

    Everyone is responsible for their actions. Saying that the occupation is the root cause of Palestinian terrorism excuses the Palestinians of any responsibility for their actions (and ignores all the evidence that suggests that the occupation is only ONE reason for Palestinian terrorism). The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions. Resistance to occupation need not take the form of terrorism. Real, adult, thinking and reasoning people made a choice to commit murder. They were not forced to do so. Peace will require that both sides take responsibility for their own. If the mindset on either side is that they are justified in all their actions because of the wrongs of the other side there will never be peace.

    Well said!
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  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions.

    over 50% of the population of Gaza are children. they are not responsible for Israel making their lives hell.

    the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope

    -Cindy Corrie

    let's not forget about them Yosi.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    I think you are taking me a little too literally.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,895
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions.

    over 50% of the population of Gaza are children. they are not responsible for Israel making their lives hell.

    the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope

    -Cindy Corrie

    let's not forget about them Yosi.

    They also deserve to be raised in a manner that doesn't perpetuate the problem. As Israeli children do. But that's not going to happen anytime soon.

    Until both sides don't care who did what first, it'll be the same old story day in and day out.
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  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    cincybearcat wrote:
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions.

    over 50% of the population of Gaza are children. they are not responsible for Israel making their lives hell.

    the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope

    -Cindy Corrie

    let's not forget about them Yosi.

    They also deserve to be raised in a manner that doesn't perpetuate the problem. As Israeli children do. But that's not going to happen anytime soon.

    Until both sides don't care who did what first, it'll be the same old story day in and day out.



    In all out war, when Gaza was invaded by Israel last year did you see the casualties?




    big bad hamas in all out war, in a situation where they were giving it their all, killed

    13 Israelis. 10 were soldiers as i recall. that's 3 civilian casualties in all out war agaisnt Israel.



    Israel killed over 1400 people. over 300 children.





    This isnt' a situation where both sides are to blame. You have a priveledged race fighting and oppressing a people. Israel has the upper hand on violence and they have not been afraid to use it.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    You know, that is a very sophisticated argument you have there. Question though; in WWII how many American civilians were killed by Germany, and how many German civilians were killed by the U.S.?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    yosi wrote:
    You know, that is a very sophisticated argument you have there. Question though; in WWII how many American civilians were killed by Germany, and how many German civilians were killed by the U.S.?

    didnt see germany on american soil.
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  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Ok???
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    yosi wrote:
    Ok???

    an unfair analogy. perhaps if the germans and americans were fighting some sort of turf war between each other within the same land i could see a parallel.
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  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    My point was that simply pointing at numbers doesn't tell us anything other than what the numbers are. It's rhetoric, not argument. You're meant to take one look at the imbalance in the numbers and jump to a conclusion without considering the context (historical, political, etc.) that would actually allow anyone to make sense of those numbers. If you want to criticize Israel, fine. But don't just make a mantra of "1,300 to 13" and try to pass it off as reasoned argument.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,470
    yosi wrote:
    My point was that simply pointing at numbers doesn't tell us anything other than what the numbers are. It's rhetoric, not argument. You're meant to take one look at the imbalance in the numbers and jump to a conclusion without considering the context (historical, political, etc.) that would actually allow anyone to make sense of those numbers. If you want to criticize Israel, fine. But don't just make a mantra of "1,300 to 13" and try to pass it off as reasoned argument.
    how is pointing out numbers rhetoric? the numbers are what they are, and that is how we quantify things in our world. rhetoric can be opinion, yet numbers do not lie.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Ok here. There is a hypothetical conflict somewhere in the world between two parties. It has been going on for about a century. In the last round of fighting one side killed about 1,000 people, while the other side killed only about 13 people. Which side, given only the information I just provided, is more morally at fault, and why?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    yosi wrote:
    My point was that simply pointing at numbers doesn't tell us anything other than what the numbers are. It's rhetoric, not argument. You're meant to take one look at the imbalance in the numbers and jump to a conclusion without considering the context (historical, political, etc.) that would actually allow anyone to make sense of those numbers. If you want to criticize Israel, fine. But don't just make a mantra of "1,300 to 13" and try to pass it off as reasoned argument.

    oh i cant possibly just look at numbers without any context. but i do get that even 1 dead civilian is 1 dead civilian too many regardless of whos doing the killing.
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  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    yosi wrote:
    Ok here. There is a hypothetical conflict somewhere in the world between two parties. It has been going on for about a century. In the last round of fighting one side killed about 1,000 people, while the other side killed only about 13 people. Which side, given only the information I just provided, is more morally at fault, and why?
    its not just the last round of fighting tho. the violence has been one sided since israel's inception. i recall reading a book from chomsky detailing the slaughter of a palestinian village, this was before terrorism as we know it today even existed. Israel's foreign policy has basically fed this mentality of retaliation. the very same they claim to be protecting themselves from today, using it as an excuse to act, calling it "defense".

    and that's nothing new. israel is not special in that regard, governments have been doing that since, yeah. they use fear as an excuse to use their military. the US has been doing that for a century now, at least.

    violence is where these 2 countries have the upper hand, of course they are going to steer issues towards that.

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