again ... hamas is israel's best friend now ... if israel refuses to a) end the siege in gaza b) stop expanding and c) control the violent setllers ... this is going to be a consequence ... you can't continue to do the things israel does on a daily basis and not expect reprisals ... it's quite simple ...
the sad part of all of this is that the last line can be switched to "you can't continue to do the things that Pal. does on a daily basis and not expect reprisals ... its quite simple"
what do the Palestinians do on a daily basis?
educate yourself. it's far from simple.
I am not saying that. sorry didn't make my self clear. what i am saying is that depending on whose side you are that line can be changed. you have Israel talking about violence on them and you have pal. talking about the violence on them. both side are stuck in that position and refuse to step back.
"Osama Hamdan, a Hamas spokesman, told Al Jazeera that Hamas had not planned any attacks intended to sabotage the Israeli-PA talks. But Hamdan said he was speaking for the political wing of Hamas, and that the Qassam Brigades could have planned the attack independently.
"We believe that there is no need to do something like this to sabotage these negotiations, because Netanyahu has [already] done this," he said."
the sad part of all of this is that the last line can be switched to "you can't continue to do the things that Pal. does on a daily basis and not expect reprisals ... its quite simple"
what do the Palestinians do on a daily basis?
educate yourself. it's far from simple.
I am not saying that. sorry didn't make my self clear. what i am saying is that depending on whose side you are that line can be changed. you have Israel talking about violence on them and you have pal. talking about the violence on them. both side are stuck in that position and refuse to step back.
Israel has chosen war and occupation. there is only one side occupying the other.
Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? Israel has the most sophisticated weaponry available at it's disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians have home made rockets.
we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.
we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. they withhold sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison. then you have daily arrests of Palestinians (including children) who are held sometimes for days, blindfolded and treated like terrorists. Israel has trafficked in organs of the dead Palestinians, enforced roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools and they have withheld health care that has resulted in peoples deaths.
the Palestinians are the only ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.
the whole relationship reminds me of schoolyard. the buillies pickin on the nobodies.....and it went forever, until one day the somebodeie recognized what is was the nobodied had something to offer. like on of the nobodies wha a cool guy, and ecerythying camne crumblking down qround tem
we aklk ahve giid poeoikem every race cikir c4reedm peeace is possible, if only these individuaLS SPEAK,
so true Commy. there are good people in every race.
Israel has chosen war and occupation. there is only one side occupying the other.
Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? Israel has the most sophisticated weaponry available at it's disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians have home made rockets.
we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.
we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. they withhold sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison. then you have daily arrests of Palestinians (including children) who are held sometimes for days, blindfolded and treated like terrorists. Israel has trafficked in organs of the dead Palestinians, enforced roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools and they have withheld health care that has resulted in peoples deaths.
the Palestinians are the only ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.
resistance is what comes with occupation.
^^^^ +1
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Triumphantangel, I was just wondering how you could be so outraged over the deaths of innocent Palestinians, yet when innocent Israelis are killed, leaving 6 orphans behind, you keep trying to find ways to say that Israel is to blame for their deaths. You have posted quite a few remarks on this thread and in none of them do you have anything bad to say about the murderers. You just keep trying to bring the discussion back to politics.
Even if you believe that Israel should not be in those areas, you can still understand that this was a pre-meditated murder of innocent civilians.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE 4 ISRAELIANS IS LIKE ISRAELIANS FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE SHIPS...ALL MURDERERS ARE THE SAME,NO MATTER COLOR-NATIONALITY..THE DEADS HAVE BLOOD LIKE OURS...THEIR FAMILYS FEEL THE SAME PAIN LIKE WE WOULD FEEL IN THEIR POSITION..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Triumphantangel, I was just wondering how you could be so outraged over the deaths of innocent Palestinians, yet when innocent Israelis are killed, leaving 6 orphans behind, you keep trying to find ways to say that Israel is to blame for their deaths. You have posted quite a few remarks on this thread and in none of them do you have anything bad to say about the murderers. You just keep trying to bring the discussion back to politics.
Even if you believe that Israel should not be in those areas, you can still understand that this was a pre-meditated murder of innocent civilians.
TriumphantAngel did condemn them in a post on page 2....
"how many people even understand that the so called "Peace Talks" about to commence, do not even include Hamas at all. in their messed up heads its not surprising they are continuing with the war. Israel hasn't stopped their war against them.
it sickens me that these people died and i''m no definitely no fan of hamas. "
Post edited by gimmesometruth27 on
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I am not saying that. sorry didn't make my self clear. what i am saying is that depending on whose side you are that line can be changed. you have Israel talking about violence on them and you have pal. talking about the violence on them. both side are stuck in that position and refuse to step back.[/quote]
Israel has chosen war and occupation. there is only one side occupying the other.
Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? Israel has the most sophisticated weaponry available at it's disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians have home made rockets.
we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.
we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. they withhold sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison. then you have daily arrests of Palestinians (including children) who are held sometimes for days, blindfolded and treated like terrorists. Israel has trafficked in organs of the dead Palestinians, enforced roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools and they have withheld health care that has resulted in peoples deaths.
the Palestinians are the only ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.
resistance is what comes with occupation.[/quote]
just want to repeat this statement "Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions" does that seem right to anyone?
...
Agreed... but, you have to admit... Hamas isn't doing anyone any favors by having Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida say, "The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."
That guys needs to be fired or something because everyone knows what is going to happen in the next chapter... an Israeli air strike.
Again... SOMEONE must be making money from all this shit. That has to be the explanation, right?
how many people even understand that the so called "Peace Talks" about to commence, do not even include Hamas at all. in their messed up heads its not surprising they are continuing with the war. Israel hasn't stopped their war against them.
it sickens me that these people died and i''m no definitely no fan of hamas. think about it cosmo, the West Bank is a war zone, it's disputed land. the people killed were settlers. you cross those lines and you'd have to be a fool not to understand the risks involved. just because Hamas military isn't powerful like Israels, and they don't have checkpoints on the borders with guns pointed at your head like Israelis do, doesn't mean that you will be safe.
do i need to tell you what happens to the Palestinians if they try to cross those same lines?
that's not an excuse. that's fact.
and talk about an Israeli air strike happening next? murder another 1400 Palestinians?? thats so fucked up i don't even know where to start.
...
I'm not arguing about the West Bank, Israeli settlers and all that stuff... I agree that the settlements in the occupied territory are one of the root causes for the unrest.
I'm simply commenting on this one aspect, the fact that an official in Hamas would claim responsibility and call murder a heroic act. It doesn't help the Palesinians bystanders who are going to take the wrath of the Israeli military response... which, we all know in going to happen. This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration. If he is helping... someone needs to explain this to me, because I don't get it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Triumphantangel, I was just wondering how you could be so outraged over the deaths of innocent Palestinians, yet when innocent Israelis are killed, leaving 6 orphans behind, you keep trying to find ways to say that Israel is to blame for their deaths. You have posted quite a few remarks on this thread and in none of them do you have anything bad to say about the murderers.You just keep trying to bring the discussion back to politics. Even if you believe that Israel should not be in those areas, you can still understand that this was a pre-meditated murder of innocent civilians.
FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE 4 ISRAELIANS IS LIKE ISRAELIANS FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE SHIPS...ALL MURDERERS ARE THE SAME,NO MATTER COLOR-NATIONALITY..THE DEADS HAVE BLOOD LIKE OURS...THEIR FAMILYS FEEL THE SAME PAIN LIKE WE WOULD FEEL IN THEIR POSITION..
no one here is excusing the murderers Dmitir.
most of the people here want a fair and just peace for the people of Palestine and Israel. it's posts like this and the one i just replied too from Rafie, where you are not understanding clearly what people are saying, that's part of the reason why these discussions turn to the shitter.
FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE 4 ISRAELIANS IS LIKE ISRAELIANS FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE SHIPS...ALL MURDERERS ARE THE SAME,NO MATTER COLOR-NATIONALITY..THE DEADS HAVE BLOOD LIKE OURS...THEIR FAMILYS FEEL THE SAME PAIN LIKE WE WOULD FEEL IN THEIR POSITION..
I agree, there are no good reasons for this shooting, which is a classic example of a terrorist act: Violence against non-combatants with a political motive (to derail peace talks, among other things).
to Rafie and Dimitris, just to make it really clear..
those people that were killed near Hebron were noncombatants, i don't condone their murder. resistance is legitimate but killing noncombatants sickens me. whether it be Israeli's OR Palestinians.
and if i want to talk about the circumstances of the conflict that has lead us to these people sadly dying, then i will, whether you like it or not.
unless of course you want everyone to just come into the thread and say these killings are wrong, offer no other comment and then move on to the next thread.
or is it only non Israeli/Palestinian threads where it's acceptable for the conversation to evolve?
...
Agreed... but, you have to admit... Hamas isn't doing anyone any favors by having Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida say, "The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."
That guys needs to be fired or something because everyone knows what is going to happen in the next chapter... an Israeli air strike.
Again... SOMEONE must be making money from all this shit. That has to be the explanation, right?
how many people even understand that the so called "Peace Talks" about to commence, do not even include Hamas at all. in their messed up heads its not surprising they are continuing with the war. Israel hasn't stopped their war against them.
it sickens me that these people died and i''m no definitely no fan of hamas. think about it cosmo, the West Bank is a war zone, it's disputed land. the people killed were settlers. you cross those lines and you'd have to be a fool not to understand the risks involved. just because Hamas military isn't powerful like Israels, and they don't have checkpoints on the borders with guns pointed at your head like Israelis do, doesn't mean that you will be safe.
do i need to tell you what happens to the Palestinians if they try to cross those same lines?
that's not an excuse. that's fact.
and talk about an Israeli air strike happening next? murder another 1400 Palestinians?? thats so fucked up i don't even know where to start.
...
I'm not arguing about the West Bank, Israeli settlers and all that stuff... I agree that the settlements in the occupied territory are one of the root causes for the unrest.
I'm simply commenting on this one aspect, the fact that an official in Hamas would claim responsibility and call murder a heroic act. It doesn't help the Palesinians bystanders who are going to take the wrath of the Israeli military response... which, we all know in going to happen. This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration. If he is helping... someone needs to explain this to me, because I don't get it.
i don't see where anyone is saying Obeida is helping anyone with his declaration. and yes he should be loudly condemned.
and considering you are another one here who is only interested in talking about one comment, then i guess there's nothing more i have to say to you on this matter.
Cosmo: This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration.
my local news just did a 30 second blurb on this incident, pro israeli of course. this is paraphrased, but it said something about "a brutal attack by gunmen from the group hamas left 4 isrealis dead yesterday. this terrorist act threatens to derail peace talks set to begin between president obama, israeli and palestinian leaders. president obama feels that a two state solution is "do able in the next 12 months" that will guarantee a palestinian state and gurantee israeli security...then it flashed to a shot of netanyahu talking about how "these terrorist acts will not be tolerated..."
no mention of any reason for the conflict, no mention of the flotilla, no mention of why hamas acts the way is does, it just paints everything as the fault of the palestinians...so sad...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
i don't see where anyone is saying Obeida is helping anyone with his declaration. and yes he should be loudly condemned.
and considering you are another one here who is only interested in talking about one comment, then i guess there's nothing more i have to say to you on this matter.
Cosmo: This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration.
T/A: I agree.
next thread.
...
I guess I should have made it clear... I wasn't making any assumptions that anyone here condones the murder of these civilians... we all consider it a cowardly and heinous attack. I was just commenting aloud that Hamas does not make a case for itself or the plight of the Palestinians by carrying out and celebrating such an act. If I know that Israel's reprisal will more than likely result in the death or injuries of innocent bystanders... Hamas must surely know this.
...
Note: I like you, Ms. Angel. You can convey your opinions, which you express with a visable depth of emotion, in a measured, well thought out manner without resorting to any of the typical insults or (which I freely admit to employing) backhanded compliments. I respect your thoughts and ideas, even I may not agree with all of them, because I respect you as a person.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i don't see where anyone is saying Obeida is helping anyone with his declaration. and yes he should be loudly condemned.
and considering you are another one here who is only interested in talking about one comment, then i guess there's nothing more i have to say to you on this matter.
Cosmo: This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration.
T/A: I agree.
next thread.
...
I guess I should have made it clear... I wasn't making any assumptions that anyone here condones the murder of these civilians... we all consider it a cowardly and heinous attack. I was just commenting aloud that Hamas does not make a case for itself or the plight of the Palestinians by carrying out and celebrating such an act. If I know that Israel's reprisal will more than likely result in the death or injuries of innocent bystanders... Hamas must surely know this.
...
Note: I like you, Ms. Angel. You can convey your opinions, which you express with a visable depth of emotion, in a measured, well thought out manner without resorting to any of the typical insults or (which I freely admit to employing) backhanded compliments. I respect your thoughts and ideas, even I may not agree with all of them, because I respect you as a person.
Triumphantangel, I apologize if I did not make my self clear in my previous post. I did not mean to imply that you accept these murders or condone them. My point was that as someone who clearly values human life on all sides, you at times let your political beliefs on the subject divert you from the tragedies done to "the other side". I have seen you start numerous threads about the things that Israel does to the Palestinians and put the full blame on the Israeli side.
4 people were murdered in cold blood. One of them was pregnant. 6 orphans under the age of 20 are left behind due to this. If it was 4 Palestinians murdered in the exact same circumstances you would be "going nuts" and bashing Israel and Israels policy/government/society and I would have no problem with that, because this is something you believe in deeply (or so I recon from my interactions with you on the board here).
My problem with your comments here was not the "evolution of the thread" as you put it, but at the lightning speed of such "evolution" in your posts. Excluding that 1 sentence you posted on page 2 (which was kind of limp in my opinion) saying that the murder sickens you, all your other posts here were centered around "putting the blame back on Israel" (at least in my eyes).
I in no way saying that my country and government are clean from all blame, not at all, but as I have said in the past numerous times, this is a complicated situation that will only be solved once the finger pointing is put aside and actual dialogue begins. Hopefully this will start this week in Washington.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
to Rafie and Dimitris, just to make it really clear..
those people that were killed near Hebron were noncombatants, i don't condone their murder. resistance is legitimate but killing noncombatants sickens me. whether it be Israeli's OR Palestinians.
and if i want to talk about the circumstances of the conflict that has lead us to these people sadly dying, then i will, whether you like it or not.
unless of course you want everyone to just come into the thread and say these killings are wrong, offer no other comment and then move on to the next thread.
or is it only non Israeli/Palestinian threads where it's acceptable for the conversation to evolve?
you are smart..im pretty sure that you understand exactly what im saying..im not the one to tell you what to post and stop where i like ...its a murder..no excuse..put them in a fair trail......
the funny is that when a murder from israelians kill a palaistine its a murder...
and when palaistine kill an israelian its a part of war and resistance,,this is what i dont like...
like those israelian murderers on the ships that try to convince us that they are defenting their boards
.as i said before..bad-evil..is everywhere........
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Triumphantangel, I apologize if I did not make my self clear in my previous post. I did not mean to imply that you accept these murders or condone them. My point was that as someone who clearly values human life on all sides, you at times let your political beliefs on the subject divert you from the tragedies done to "the other side". I have seen you start numerous threads about the things that Israel does to the Palestinians and put the full blame on the Israeli side.
4 people were murdered in cold blood. One of them was pregnant. 6 orphans under the age of 20 are left behind due to this. If it was 4 Palestinians murdered in the exact same circumstances you would be "going nuts" and bashing Israel and Israels policy/government/society and I would have no problem with that, because this is something you believe in deeply (or so I recon from my interactions with you on the board here).
My problem with your comments here was not the "evolution of the thread" as you put it, but at the lightning speed of such "evolution" in your posts. Excluding that 1 sentence you posted on page 2 (which was kind of limp in my opinion) saying that the murder sickens you, all your other posts here were centered around "putting the blame back on Israel" (at least in my eyes).
I in no way saying that my country and government are clean from all blame, not at all, but as I have said in the past numerous times, this is a complicated situation that will only be solved once the finger pointing is put aside and actual dialogue begins. Hopefully this will start this week in Washington.
she condemned the murders!! what more do you want? was the condemnation not strong enough in your opinion? i condemned them as well. i was the first pro palestinian to do so in this thread if you will look back. do you want me to point out the countless instances where israeli forces have done the same ting? do you recall the flotilla? how about Rachel Corrie? blood spilled for no reason at all. did you condemn your own government in those cases or did you make excuses for their actions? truth is, her comments are necessary because it points to the true root cause that these situations occur. and there can be no solution, no progress, and no end to this if the true context of things is not discussed. we live in a world where all the media is filtered and it is heavily pro-israel and anti palestine and anti muslim. people like TA who actually communicate the real story of the situation are an invaluable resource for those of us living with a filtered media. and you are right, if it was the other way around I would be going crazy bashing israel's policies because where does it end? they are committing atrocities with the blockade, the limiting of water and building supplies and aid, and going against international law with the settlements. you can not discuss peace if you do not discuss the human rights abuses that israel's government is carrying out.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Triumphantangel, I apologize if I did not make my self clear in my previous post. I did not mean to imply that you accept these murders or condone them. My point was that as someone who clearly values human life on all sides, you at times let your political beliefs on the subject divert you from the tragedies done to "the other side". I have seen you start numerous threads about the things that Israel does to the Palestinians and put the full blame on the Israeli side.
4 people were murdered in cold blood. One of them was pregnant. 6 orphans under the age of 20 are left behind due to this. If it was 4 Palestinians murdered in the exact same circumstances you would be "going nuts" and bashing Israel and Israels policy/government/society and I would have no problem with that, because this is something you believe in deeply (or so I recon from my interactions with you on the board here).
My problem with your comments here was not the "evolution of the thread" as you put it, but at the lightning speed of such "evolution" in your posts. Excluding that 1 sentence you posted on page 2 (which was kind of limp in my opinion) saying that the murder sickens you, all your other posts here were centered around "putting the blame back on Israel" (at least in my eyes).
I in no way saying that my country and government are clean from all blame, not at all, but as I have said in the past numerous times, this is a complicated situation that will only be solved once the finger pointing is put aside and actual dialogue begins. Hopefully this will start this week in Washington.
If you want to take these shootings out of context then go ahead. Just don't wrap it in a disguise like you are doing it for humanitarian purposes. You ignoring the huge role Israel plays in killings like these by continuing the illegal occupation and oppression of Palestinians is just as political as us assigning blame to Israel for these. They might as well have pulled the trigger themselves. The actions of a few irrational Palestinian groups that carry out attacks like these in no way compares to the systematic destructive policies carried out by the entire state of Israel. People need to stop equating the Palestinians with Israel, one is the occupier and one is being occupied, they are not equal. One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Palestinians do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being occupied. if you want their actions to end, end the occupation. this israel has refused to do for 43 years now.
to try to argue to ignore the political aspect of these killings is illogical and ignoring of reality.
to try to argue to ignore the political aspect of these killings is illogical and ignoring of reality.
it's difficult for me to come into a thread like this and just comment on the murders, which i've already said is just horrible. heartbreaking for the families and orphans left behind. just terrible. it's difficult because it's impossible to ignore the political aspect of these killings.
you know, i was watching Hillary Clinton's condemnation of the actions yesterday (and rightly so), and it just made me really sad to listen to her words because i couldn't help but think how the US Government has blood on their hands too. if the US stopped unconditionally supporting Israel's cruel and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people, contrary to what most of the civilized world thinks, and showed as much outrage as when innocent Palestinians are murdered, and actually did something to help these people, then perhaps we would not be where we are today.
Israel needs to stop pretending like they've done everything they can, and have no idea why there is violence.
One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Palestinians do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being occupied. if you want their actions to end, end the occupation. this israel has refused to do for 43 years now.
One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Israelis do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being attacked. if you want their actions to end, end the terror. this the Palestinians have refused to do for 63 years now.
You think that everything is on Israel, that at the end of the day all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what the Palestinians do, is on Israel. There are those that have exactly the opposite view, that all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what Israel does, is on the Palestinians. They will tell you that the conflict has nothing to do with the occupation, that it is really about Palestinian and Arab rejection of Israel's existence and their desire to undo it, and they will point to years of war and terrorism predating the occupation to prove their point.
Everyone is responsible for their actions. Saying that the occupation is the root cause of Palestinian terrorism excuses the Palestinians of any responsibility for their actions (and ignores all the evidence that suggests that the occupation is only ONE reason for Palestinian terrorism). The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions. Resistance to occupation need not take the form of terrorism. Real, adult, thinking and reasoning people made a choice to commit murder. They were not forced to do so. Peace will require that both sides take responsibility for their own. If the mindset on either side is that they are justified in all their actions because of the wrongs of the other side there will never be peace.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Palestinians do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being occupied. if you want their actions to end, end the occupation. this israel has refused to do for 43 years now.
One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Israelis do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being attacked. if you want their actions to end, end the terror. this the Palestinians have refused to do for 63 years now.
You think that everything is on Israel, that at the end of the day all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what the Palestinians do, is on Israel. There are those that have exactly the opposite view, that all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what Israel does, is on the Palestinians. They will tell you that the conflict has nothing to do with the occupation, that it is really about Palestinian and Arab rejection of Israel's existence and their desire to undo it, and they will point to years of war and terrorism predating the occupation to prove their point.
Everyone is responsible for their actions. Saying that the occupation is the root cause of Palestinian terrorism excuses the Palestinians of any responsibility for their actions (and ignores all the evidence that suggests that the occupation is only ONE reason for Palestinian terrorism). The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions. Resistance to occupation need not take the form of terrorism. Real, adult, thinking and reasoning people made a choice to commit murder. They were not forced to do so. Peace will require that both sides take responsibility for their own. If the mindset on either side is that they are justified in all their actions because of the wrongs of the other side there will never be peace.
Well said!
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions.
over 50% of the population of Gaza are children. they are not responsible for Israel making their lives hell.
the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope
The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions.
over 50% of the population of Gaza are children. they are not responsible for Israel making their lives hell.
the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope
-Cindy Corrie
let's not forget about them Yosi.
They also deserve to be raised in a manner that doesn't perpetuate the problem. As Israeli children do. But that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Until both sides don't care who did what first, it'll be the same old story day in and day out.
Comments
I am not saying that. sorry didn't make my self clear. what i am saying is that depending on whose side you are that line can be changed. you have Israel talking about violence on them and you have pal. talking about the violence on them. both side are stuck in that position and refuse to step back.
"We believe that there is no need to do something like this to sabotage these negotiations, because Netanyahu has [already] done this," he said."
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 11890.html
Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? Israel has the most sophisticated weaponry available at it's disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians have home made rockets.
we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.
we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. they withhold sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison. then you have daily arrests of Palestinians (including children) who are held sometimes for days, blindfolded and treated like terrorists. Israel has trafficked in organs of the dead Palestinians, enforced roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools and they have withheld health care that has resulted in peoples deaths.
the Palestinians are the only ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.
resistance is what comes with occupation.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/9/1/se ... t_settlers
Ali is the co-founder of The Electronic Intifada and the author of “One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse.”
Even if you believe that Israel should not be in those areas, you can still understand that this was a pre-meditated murder of innocent civilians.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
TriumphantAngel did condemn them in a post on page 2....
"how many people even understand that the so called "Peace Talks" about to commence, do not even include Hamas at all. in their messed up heads its not surprising they are continuing with the war. Israel hasn't stopped their war against them.
it sickens me that these people died and i''m no definitely no fan of hamas. "
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Israel has chosen war and occupation. there is only one side occupying the other.
Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? Israel has the most sophisticated weaponry available at it's disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians have home made rockets.
we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.
we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. they withhold sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison. then you have daily arrests of Palestinians (including children) who are held sometimes for days, blindfolded and treated like terrorists. Israel has trafficked in organs of the dead Palestinians, enforced roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools and they have withheld health care that has resulted in peoples deaths.
the Palestinians are the only ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.
resistance is what comes with occupation.[/quote]
just want to repeat this statement "Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions" does that seem right to anyone?
I'm not arguing about the West Bank, Israeli settlers and all that stuff... I agree that the settlements in the occupied territory are one of the root causes for the unrest.
I'm simply commenting on this one aspect, the fact that an official in Hamas would claim responsibility and call murder a heroic act. It doesn't help the Palesinians bystanders who are going to take the wrath of the Israeli military response... which, we all know in going to happen. This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration. If he is helping... someone needs to explain this to me, because I don't get it.
Hail, Hail!!!
no one here is excusing the murderers Dmitir.
most of the people here want a fair and just peace for the people of Palestine and Israel. it's posts like this and the one i just replied too from Rafie, where you are not understanding clearly what people are saying, that's part of the reason why these discussions turn to the shitter.
I agree, there are no good reasons for this shooting, which is a classic example of a terrorist act: Violence against non-combatants with a political motive (to derail peace talks, among other things).
those people that were killed near Hebron were noncombatants, i don't condone their murder. resistance is legitimate but killing noncombatants sickens me. whether it be Israeli's OR Palestinians.
and if i want to talk about the circumstances of the conflict that has lead us to these people sadly dying, then i will, whether you like it or not.
unless of course you want everyone to just come into the thread and say these killings are wrong, offer no other comment and then move on to the next thread.
or is it only non Israeli/Palestinian threads where it's acceptable for the conversation to evolve?
and considering you are another one here who is only interested in talking about one comment, then i guess there's nothing more i have to say to you on this matter.
Cosmo: This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration.
T/A: I agree.
next thread.
no mention of any reason for the conflict, no mention of the flotilla, no mention of why hamas acts the way is does, it just paints everything as the fault of the palestinians...so sad...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I guess I should have made it clear... I wasn't making any assumptions that anyone here condones the murder of these civilians... we all consider it a cowardly and heinous attack. I was just commenting aloud that Hamas does not make a case for itself or the plight of the Palestinians by carrying out and celebrating such an act. If I know that Israel's reprisal will more than likely result in the death or injuries of innocent bystanders... Hamas must surely know this.
...
Note: I like you, Ms. Angel. You can convey your opinions, which you express with a visable depth of emotion, in a measured, well thought out manner without resorting to any of the typical insults or (which I freely admit to employing) backhanded compliments. I respect your thoughts and ideas, even I may not agree with all of them, because I respect you as a person.
Hail, Hail!!!
4 people were murdered in cold blood. One of them was pregnant. 6 orphans under the age of 20 are left behind due to this. If it was 4 Palestinians murdered in the exact same circumstances you would be "going nuts" and bashing Israel and Israels policy/government/society and I would have no problem with that, because this is something you believe in deeply (or so I recon from my interactions with you on the board here).
My problem with your comments here was not the "evolution of the thread" as you put it, but at the lightning speed of such "evolution" in your posts. Excluding that 1 sentence you posted on page 2 (which was kind of limp in my opinion) saying that the murder sickens you, all your other posts here were centered around "putting the blame back on Israel" (at least in my eyes).
I in no way saying that my country and government are clean from all blame, not at all, but as I have said in the past numerous times, this is a complicated situation that will only be solved once the finger pointing is put aside and actual dialogue begins. Hopefully this will start this week in Washington.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
the funny is that when a murder from israelians kill a palaistine its a murder...
and when palaistine kill an israelian its a part of war and resistance,,this is what i dont like...
like those israelian murderers on the ships that try to convince us that they are defenting their boards
.as i said before..bad-evil..is everywhere........
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
to try to argue to ignore the political aspect of these killings is illogical and ignoring of reality.
you know, i was watching Hillary Clinton's condemnation of the actions yesterday (and rightly so), and it just made me really sad to listen to her words because i couldn't help but think how the US Government has blood on their hands too. if the US stopped unconditionally supporting Israel's cruel and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people, contrary to what most of the civilized world thinks, and showed as much outrage as when innocent Palestinians are murdered, and actually did something to help these people, then perhaps we would not be where we are today.
Israel needs to stop pretending like they've done everything they can, and have no idea why there is violence.
December 2008 - January 2009 Attack on Gaza
Palestinians & Israelis Killed in Gaza 12/27/08 - 1/18/09
Palestinian & Israeli Children Killed in Gaza 12/27/08 - 1/18/09
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dec08.html
One's actions result in another's reactions. By default, ANYTHING the Israelis do is a RE-action due to the fact that they are being attacked. if you want their actions to end, end the terror. this the Palestinians have refused to do for 63 years now.
You think that everything is on Israel, that at the end of the day all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what the Palestinians do, is on Israel. There are those that have exactly the opposite view, that all the blame for EVERYTHING, including what Israel does, is on the Palestinians. They will tell you that the conflict has nothing to do with the occupation, that it is really about Palestinian and Arab rejection of Israel's existence and their desire to undo it, and they will point to years of war and terrorism predating the occupation to prove their point.
Everyone is responsible for their actions. Saying that the occupation is the root cause of Palestinian terrorism excuses the Palestinians of any responsibility for their actions (and ignores all the evidence that suggests that the occupation is only ONE reason for Palestinian terrorism). The Palestinians are not children. Don't treat them as such. They are responsible for their own actions. Resistance to occupation need not take the form of terrorism. Real, adult, thinking and reasoning people made a choice to commit murder. They were not forced to do so. Peace will require that both sides take responsibility for their own. If the mindset on either side is that they are justified in all their actions because of the wrongs of the other side there will never be peace.
Well said!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
over 50% of the population of Gaza are children. they are not responsible for Israel making their lives hell.
the 793,520 children of Gaza (56% of the population) have lived under occupation and siege all of their lives. They are beautiful, resilient, curious and full of potential. They deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. Food, clean water, healthcare, safe places to play and learn. They deserve the tools to deal with their nightmares, and sleep that is not punctuated by bombing. They deserve life, freedom, and hope
-Cindy Corrie
let's not forget about them Yosi.
They also deserve to be raised in a manner that doesn't perpetuate the problem. As Israeli children do. But that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Until both sides don't care who did what first, it'll be the same old story day in and day out.