Four Israelis killed in shooting attack near Hebron

fife

TriumphantAngel wrote:

fife wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

again ... hamas is israel's best friend now ... if israel refuses to a) end the siege in gaza b) stop expanding and c) control the violent setllers ... this is going to be a consequence ... you can't continue to do the things israel does on a daily basis and not expect reprisals ... it's quite simple ...

the sad part of all of this is that the last line can be switched to "you can't continue to do the things that Pal. does on a daily basis and not expect reprisals ... its quite simple"

what do the Palestinians do on a daily basis?

educate yourself. it's far from simple.

I am not saying that. sorry didn't make my self clear. what i am saying is that depending on whose side you are that line can be changed. you have Israel talking about violence on them and you have pal. talking about the violence on them. both side are stuck in that position and refuse to step back.

fuck

"Osama Hamdan, a Hamas spokesman, told Al Jazeera that Hamas had not planned any attacks intended to sabotage the Israeli-PA talks. But Hamdan said he was speaking for the political wing of Hamas, and that the Qassam Brigades could have planned the attack independently.

"We believe that there is no need to do something like this to sabotage these negotiations, because Netanyahu has [already] done this," he said."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 11890.html

TriumphantAngel

fife wrote:

TriumphantAngel wrote:

fife wrote:

the sad part of all of this is that the last line can be switched to "you can't continue to do the things that Pal. does on a daily basis and not expect reprisals ... its quite simple"

what do the Palestinians do on a daily basis?

educate yourself. it's far from simple.

I am not saying that. sorry didn't make my self clear. what i am saying is that depending on whose side you are that line can be changed. you have Israel talking about violence on them and you have pal. talking about the violence on them. both side are stuck in that position and refuse to step back.

Israel has chosen war and occupation. there is only one side occupying the other.

Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? Israel has the most sophisticated weaponry available at it's disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians have home made rockets.

we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.

we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. they withhold sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison. then you have daily arrests of Palestinians (including children) who are held sometimes for days, blindfolded and treated like terrorists. Israel has trafficked in organs of the dead Palestinians, enforced roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools and they have withheld health care that has resulted in peoples deaths.

the Palestinians are the only ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.

resistance is what comes with occupation.

TriumphantAngel

Commy wrote:

the whole relationship reminds me of schoolyard. the buillies pickin on the nobodies.....and it went forever, until one day the somebodeie recognized what is was the nobodied had something to offer. like on of the nobodies wha a cool guy, and ecerythying camne crumblking down qround tem


we aklk ahve giid poeoikem every race cikir c4reedm peeace is possible, if only these individuaLS SPEAK,

so true Commy. there are good people in every race.

gimmesometruth27

TriumphantAngel wrote:

Israel has chosen war and occupation. there is only one side occupying the other.

Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? Israel has the most sophisticated weaponry available at it's disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians have home made rockets.

we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.

we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. they withhold sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison. then you have daily arrests of Palestinians (including children) who are held sometimes for days, blindfolded and treated like terrorists. Israel has trafficked in organs of the dead Palestinians, enforced roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools and they have withheld health care that has resulted in peoples deaths.

the Palestinians are the only ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.

resistance is what comes with occupation.

^^^^ +1

TriumphantAngel

really good interview with Ali Abunimah on Democracy now.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/9/1/se ... t_settlers

Ali is the co-founder of The Electronic Intifada and the author of “One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse.”

rafie

Triumphantangel, I was just wondering how you could be so outraged over the deaths of innocent Palestinians, yet when innocent Israelis are killed, leaving 6 orphans behind, you keep trying to find ways to say that Israel is to blame for their deaths. You have posted quite a few remarks on this thread and in none of them do you have anything bad to say about the murderers. You just keep trying to bring the discussion back to politics.
Even if you believe that Israel should not be in those areas, you can still understand that this was a pre-meditated murder of innocent civilians.

dimitrispearljam

FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE 4 ISRAELIANS IS LIKE ISRAELIANS FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE SHIPS...ALL MURDERERS ARE THE SAME,NO MATTER COLOR-NATIONALITY..THE DEADS HAVE BLOOD LIKE OURS...THEIR FAMILYS FEEL THE SAME PAIN LIKE WE WOULD FEEL IN THEIR POSITION..

gimmesometruth27

rafie wrote:

Triumphantangel, I was just wondering how you could be so outraged over the deaths of innocent Palestinians, yet when innocent Israelis are killed, leaving 6 orphans behind, you keep trying to find ways to say that Israel is to blame for their deaths. You have posted quite a few remarks on this thread and in none of them do you have anything bad to say about the murderers. You just keep trying to bring the discussion back to politics.
Even if you believe that Israel should not be in those areas, you can still understand that this was a pre-meditated murder of innocent civilians.

TriumphantAngel did condemn them in a post on page 2....

"how many people even understand that the so called "Peace Talks" about to commence, do not even include Hamas at all. in their messed up heads its not surprising they are continuing with the war. Israel hasn't stopped their war against them.

it sickens me that these people died and i''m no definitely no fan of hamas. "

fife

I am not saying that. sorry didn't make my self clear. what i am saying is that depending on whose side you are that line can be changed. you have Israel talking about violence on them and you have pal. talking about the violence on them. both side are stuck in that position and refuse to step back.[/quote]
Israel has chosen war and occupation. there is only one side occupying the other.

Israel clearly has the advantage here. it's not war. isn't war when two armies fight against each other? Israel has the most sophisticated weaponry available at it's disposal and uses it without mercy. the Palestinians have home made rockets.

we're talking about 1.5 million people, caged in like animals, subjected to all sorts of inhuman treatment.

we have a foreign power, funded and supported by the U.S., that violently occupies the Palestinians homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their beautiful olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolates their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin. they withhold sources of livelihood from an entire CAGED in population who live in an open air prison. then you have daily arrests of Palestinians (including children) who are held sometimes for days, blindfolded and treated like terrorists. Israel has trafficked in organs of the dead Palestinians, enforced roadblocks that prevent the Palestinians from moving freely between their cities, villages, fields and schools and they have withheld health care that has resulted in peoples deaths.

the Palestinians are the only ones subject to occupation. they don't have any reason to give up resistance until Israel begins to treat them humanely. Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions.

resistance is what comes with occupation.[/quote]

just want to repeat this statement "Israel as the occupier is completely responsible for these actions" does that seem right to anyone?

Cosmo

TriumphantAngel wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
Agreed... but, you have to admit... Hamas isn't doing anyone any favors by having Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida say, "The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."
That guys needs to be fired or something because everyone knows what is going to happen in the next chapter... an Israeli air strike.
Again... SOMEONE must be making money from all this shit. That has to be the explanation, right?

how many people even understand that the so called "Peace Talks" about to commence, do not even include Hamas at all. in their messed up heads its not surprising they are continuing with the war. Israel hasn't stopped their war against them.

it sickens me that these people died and i''m no definitely no fan of hamas. think about it cosmo, the West Bank is a war zone, it's disputed land. the people killed were settlers. you cross those lines and you'd have to be a fool not to understand the risks involved. just because Hamas military isn't powerful like Israels, and they don't have checkpoints on the borders with guns pointed at your head like Israelis do, doesn't mean that you will be safe.

do i need to tell you what happens to the Palestinians if they try to cross those same lines?

that's not an excuse. that's fact.

and talk about an Israeli air strike happening next? murder another 1400 Palestinians?? thats so fucked up i don't even know where to start.

...
I'm not arguing about the West Bank, Israeli settlers and all that stuff... I agree that the settlements in the occupied territory are one of the root causes for the unrest.
I'm simply commenting on this one aspect, the fact that an official in Hamas would claim responsibility and call murder a heroic act. It doesn't help the Palesinians bystanders who are going to take the wrath of the Israeli military response... which, we all know in going to happen. This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration. If he is helping... someone needs to explain this to me, because I don't get it.

TriumphantAngel

rafie wrote:

Triumphantangel, I was just wondering how you could be so outraged over the deaths of innocent Palestinians, yet when innocent Israelis are killed, leaving 6 orphans behind, you keep trying to find ways to say that Israel is to blame for their deaths. You have posted quite a few remarks on this thread and in none of them do you have anything bad to say about the murderers.You just keep trying to bring the discussion back to politics. Even if you believe that Israel should not be in those areas, you can still understand that this was a pre-meditated murder of innocent civilians.

clearly you can't read.

TriumphantAngel wrote:

it sickens me that these people died and i''m no definitely no fan of hamas.

TriumphantAngel

dimitrispearljam wrote:

FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE 4 ISRAELIANS IS LIKE ISRAELIANS FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE SHIPS...ALL MURDERERS ARE THE SAME,NO MATTER COLOR-NATIONALITY..THE DEADS HAVE BLOOD LIKE OURS...THEIR FAMILYS FEEL THE SAME PAIN LIKE WE WOULD FEEL IN THEIR POSITION..

no one here is excusing the murderers Dmitir.

most of the people here want a fair and just peace for the people of Palestine and Israel. it's posts like this and the one i just replied too from Rafie, where you are not understanding clearly what people are saying, that's part of the reason why these discussions turn to the shitter.

rebornFixer

dimitrispearljam wrote:

FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE 4 ISRAELIANS IS LIKE ISRAELIANS FIND EXCUSES FOR THE MURDERERS OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE SHIPS...ALL MURDERERS ARE THE SAME,NO MATTER COLOR-NATIONALITY..THE DEADS HAVE BLOOD LIKE OURS...THEIR FAMILYS FEEL THE SAME PAIN LIKE WE WOULD FEEL IN THEIR POSITION..

I agree, there are no good reasons for this shooting, which is a classic example of a terrorist act: Violence against non-combatants with a political motive (to derail peace talks, among other things).

TriumphantAngel

to Rafie and Dimitris, just to make it really clear..

those people that were killed near Hebron were noncombatants, i don't condone their murder. resistance is legitimate but killing noncombatants sickens me. whether it be Israeli's OR Palestinians.

and if i want to talk about the circumstances of the conflict that has lead us to these people sadly dying, then i will, whether you like it or not.

unless of course you want everyone to just come into the thread and say these killings are wrong, offer no other comment and then move on to the next thread.

or is it only non Israeli/Palestinian threads where it's acceptable for the conversation to evolve?

TriumphantAngel

Cosmo wrote:

TriumphantAngel wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
Agreed... but, you have to admit... Hamas isn't doing anyone any favors by having Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida say, "The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."
That guys needs to be fired or something because everyone knows what is going to happen in the next chapter... an Israeli air strike.
Again... SOMEONE must be making money from all this shit. That has to be the explanation, right?

how many people even understand that the so called "Peace Talks" about to commence, do not even include Hamas at all. in their messed up heads its not surprising they are continuing with the war. Israel hasn't stopped their war against them.

it sickens me that these people died and i''m no definitely no fan of hamas. think about it cosmo, the West Bank is a war zone, it's disputed land. the people killed were settlers. you cross those lines and you'd have to be a fool not to understand the risks involved. just because Hamas military isn't powerful like Israels, and they don't have checkpoints on the borders with guns pointed at your head like Israelis do, doesn't mean that you will be safe.

do i need to tell you what happens to the Palestinians if they try to cross those same lines?

that's not an excuse. that's fact.

and talk about an Israeli air strike happening next? murder another 1400 Palestinians?? thats so fucked up i don't even know where to start.

...
I'm not arguing about the West Bank, Israeli settlers and all that stuff... I agree that the settlements in the occupied territory are one of the root causes for the unrest.
I'm simply commenting on this one aspect, the fact that an official in Hamas would claim responsibility and call murder a heroic act. It doesn't help the Palesinians bystanders who are going to take the wrath of the Israeli military response... which, we all know in going to happen. This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration. If he is helping... someone needs to explain this to me, because I don't get it.

i don't see where anyone is saying Obeida is helping anyone with his declaration. and yes he should be loudly condemned.

and considering you are another one here who is only interested in talking about one comment, then i guess there's nothing more i have to say to you on this matter.

Cosmo: This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration.

T/A: I agree.


next thread.

gimmesometruth27

my local news just did a 30 second blurb on this incident, pro israeli of course. this is paraphrased, but it said something about "a brutal attack by gunmen from the group hamas left 4 isrealis dead yesterday. this terrorist act threatens to derail peace talks set to begin between president obama, israeli and palestinian leaders. president obama feels that a two state solution is "do able in the next 12 months" that will guarantee a palestinian state and gurantee israeli security...then it flashed to a shot of netanyahu talking about how "these terrorist acts will not be tolerated..."

no mention of any reason for the conflict, no mention of the flotilla, no mention of why hamas acts the way is does, it just paints everything as the fault of the palestinians...so sad...

Cosmo

TriumphantAngel wrote:

i don't see where anyone is saying Obeida is helping anyone with his declaration. and yes he should be loudly condemned.

and considering you are another one here who is only interested in talking about one comment, then i guess there's nothing more i have to say to you on this matter.

Cosmo: This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration.

T/A: I agree.
next thread.

...
I guess I should have made it clear... I wasn't making any assumptions that anyone here condones the murder of these civilians... we all consider it a cowardly and heinous attack. I was just commenting aloud that Hamas does not make a case for itself or the plight of the Palestinians by carrying out and celebrating such an act. If I know that Israel's reprisal will more than likely result in the death or injuries of innocent bystanders... Hamas must surely know this.
...
Note: I like you, Ms. Angel. You can convey your opinions, which you express with a visable depth of emotion, in a measured, well thought out manner without resorting to any of the typical insults or (which I freely admit to employing) backhanded compliments. I respect your thoughts and ideas, even I may not agree with all of them, because I respect you as a person.

TriumphantAngel

Cosmo wrote:

TriumphantAngel wrote:

i don't see where anyone is saying Obeida is helping anyone with his declaration. and yes he should be loudly condemned.

and considering you are another one here who is only interested in talking about one comment, then i guess there's nothing more i have to say to you on this matter.

Cosmo: This guy, Abu Obeida, isn't helping anyone with this declaration.

T/A: I agree.
next thread.

...
I guess I should have made it clear... I wasn't making any assumptions that anyone here condones the murder of these civilians... we all consider it a cowardly and heinous attack. I was just commenting aloud that Hamas does not make a case for itself or the plight of the Palestinians by carrying out and celebrating such an act. If I know that Israel's reprisal will more than likely result in the death or injuries of innocent bystanders... Hamas must surely know this.
...
Note: I like you, Ms. Angel. You can convey your opinions, which you express with a visable depth of emotion, in a measured, well thought out manner without resorting to any of the typical insults or (which I freely admit to employing) backhanded compliments. I respect your thoughts and ideas, even I may not agree with all of them, because I respect you as a person.

thankyou Cosmo.

rafie

Triumphantangel, I apologize if I did not make my self clear in my previous post. I did not mean to imply that you accept these murders or condone them. My point was that as someone who clearly values human life on all sides, you at times let your political beliefs on the subject divert you from the tragedies done to "the other side". I have seen you start numerous threads about the things that Israel does to the Palestinians and put the full blame on the Israeli side.
4 people were murdered in cold blood. One of them was pregnant. 6 orphans under the age of 20 are left behind due to this. If it was 4 Palestinians murdered in the exact same circumstances you would be "going nuts" and bashing Israel and Israels policy/government/society and I would have no problem with that, because this is something you believe in deeply (or so I recon from my interactions with you on the board here).
My problem with your comments here was not the "evolution of the thread" as you put it, but at the lightning speed of such "evolution" in your posts. Excluding that 1 sentence you posted on page 2 (which was kind of limp in my opinion) saying that the murder sickens you, all your other posts here were centered around "putting the blame back on Israel" (at least in my eyes).
I in no way saying that my country and government are clean from all blame, not at all, but as I have said in the past numerous times, this is a complicated situation that will only be solved once the finger pointing is put aside and actual dialogue begins. Hopefully this will start this week in Washington.