israel sentences arab to 18months for consentual sex

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  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,155
    Dude, seriously, I think you're missing something.

    She didn't have sex with the guy and then accuse him of rape when she found out he wasn't Jewish. She accused him of rape, as in, violent, forcible, "I didn't want to have sex with him, but he held me down and raped me" rape. He was arrested for forcible rape, not rape by deception. Rape by deception only came into the case later as the charge to which the alleged violent rapist pleaded, because of concerns about putting the alleged victim of the VIOLENT RAPE on the witness stand. The whole story about the rape by deception was basically made up by the prosecution because they needed to have some sort of narrative of the crime to put into the plea that would fit the charge to which the alleged VIOLENT RAPIST was pleading, in this case rape by deception.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    Dude, seriously, I think you're missing something.

    She didn't have sex with the guy and then accuse him of rape when she found out he wasn't Jewish. She accused him of rape, as in, violent, forcible, "I didn't want to have sex with him, but he held me down and raped me" rape. He was arrested for forcible rape, not rape by deception. Rape by deception only came into the case later as the charge to which the alleged violent rapist pleaded, because of concerns about putting the alleged victim of the VIOLENT RAPE on the witness stand. The whole story about the rape by deception was basically made up by the prosecution because they needed to have some sort of narrative of the crime to put into the plea that would fit the charge to which the alleged VIOLENT RAPIST was pleading, in this case rape by deception.

    dude ... everything is speculative ... you want to believe the victim who apparently always seems to find herself in this position ... how many true rape victims have continually found themselves to be victims multiple times (by a different person) each time? ... and in each time going to the police?

    i wonder who you would believe if the woman was palestinian and the accused israeli?
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    yosi wrote:
    ... but I don't think it is illogical to extend the definition of rape beyond obtaining sex by force. The underlying idea is to protect the woman's right to freely choose her partner, as well as her right to refuse, and I don't think a choice is really made freely if it is made as a result of fraud.

    Have you ever experienced a one-night stand originating at a bar? Almost everyone is misrepresenting themselves (men AND women) in those situations in order to get the other person in bed. "I love you"... "I'm rich"... and apparently "I'm a jew"... By your definition of "rape" almost everytime a single young man had sex he would be guilty.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,834
    polaris_x wrote:

    i wonder who you would believe if the woman was palestinian and the accused israeli?


    That's funny I wonder the same thing about others here as well.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    cincybearcat wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    i wonder who you would believe if the woman was palestinian and the accused israeli?


    That's funny I wonder the same thing about others here as well.

    the thing is ... most people here are arguing the nature of the law ... whether rape by deception is right or not ... i have said a couple of times now ... it's subjective ... but dude makes it appear that she is definitely right when he has no evidence ...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,155
    If the same thing happened but the woman was Palestinian and the man Israeli I would still believe the woman. Yes, this woman has reported multiple cases of sexual assault in the past, but that probably has to do with the fact that she finds herself/puts herself in bad situations a lot. Many of the previous cases were when she was repeatedly abused by her own father, and then there's the fact that she has worked as a prostitute. So sure, she has clearly made many bad decisions (in this case also, following a complete stranger into a strange building in the middle of the night is not a great idea), but that hardly makes her responsible for getting raped (and to even suggest that it does is shameful). It is a fact that the police found this woman naked, bruised, and bleeding, lying in shock in the stairwell of a random building. The hospital and the prosecutors documented her injuries. Is it certain that she was really the victim of a violent rape. No. But in such circumstances I am inclined towards believing the woman. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    If the same thing happened but the woman was Palestinian and the man Israeli I would still believe the woman. Yes, this woman has reported multiple cases of sexual assault in the past, but that probably has to do with the fact that she finds herself/puts herself in bad situations a lot. Many of the previous cases were when she was repeatedly abused by her own father, and then there's the fact that she has worked as a prostitute. So sure, she has clearly made many bad decisions (in this case also, following a complete stranger into a strange building in the middle of the night is not a great idea), but that hardly makes her responsible for getting raped (and to even suggest that it does is shameful). It is a fact that the police found this woman naked, bruised, and bleeding, lying in shock in the stairwell of a random building. The hospital and the prosecutors documented her injuries. Is it certain that she was really the victim of a violent rape. No. But in such circumstances I am inclined towards believing the woman. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

    where are these police reports you speak of!? ... everything you've posted is heresay from the victim ... we are talking about a person with mental health issues here ... and there is no excuse for getting raped and no one here is suggesting she deserved to be rape ... but, to ignore the fact that she is constantly in this position (of which i am not even referring to the abuse her father inflicted on her) is not being very objective ... i appreciate that you want to side with the victim and everyone has their right but this case is not cut and dry as you make it appear to be ... that is all ... there are so many inconsistencies with her testimony ...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,155
    The article in Haaretz details the state she was in when the police found her. I'm assuming that the reporters for a highly respected newspaper weren't just making shit up.

    But look, even if there are questions as to whether she was really the victim of a violent rape, what is clear is that Kashur, the alleged rapist, is NOT the victim of a rape charge arising from racism, since the entire issue of rape by deception only entered the case because the prosecution was in need of a charge that carried a lesser sentence, and rape by deception fit the bill.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    The article in Haaretz details the state she was in when the police found her. I'm assuming that the reporters for a highly respected newspaper weren't just making shit up.

    But look, even if there are questions as to whether she was really the victim of a violent rape, what is clear is that Kashur, the alleged rapist, is NOT the victim of a rape charge arising from racism, since the entire issue of rape by deception only entered the case because the prosecution was in need of a charge that carried a lesser sentence, and rape by deception fit the bill.

    what article in haaretz? ... i just went thru all 5 pages and see no link to any article in haaretz ... did i miss it? ...

    ultimately, the question is whether or not she was raped ...
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    yosi wrote:
    Dude, seriously, I think you're missing something.

    She didn't have sex with the guy and then accuse him of rape when she found out he wasn't Jewish. She accused him of rape, as in, violent, forcible, "I didn't want to have sex with him, but he held me down and raped me" rape. He was arrested for forcible rape, not rape by deception. Rape by deception only came into the case later as the charge to which the alleged violent rapist pleaded, because of concerns about putting the alleged victim of the VIOLENT RAPE on the witness stand. The whole story about the rape by deception was basically made up by the prosecution because they needed to have some sort of narrative of the crime to put into the plea that would fit the charge to which the alleged VIOLENT RAPIST was pleading, in this case rape by deception.

    the problem with your claim is in the judge's comments:

    "Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish.
    The sex therefore was obtained under false pretences, the judges said. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," they added.

    The court ruled that Kashur should receive a jail term and rejected the option of a six-month community service order. He was said to be seeking to appeal."

    why do you automatically believe the victim's rape by force claim when one of the presiding judges claims otherwise?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,155
    Paul, go back through the thread. That has already been addressed.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    yosi wrote:
    Triumphant, I don't feel that I'm required to respond to everything you write
    maybe next time remember that when you pull out the caps lock for extra drama and chuck a hissy fit because someone doesn't answer one of your posts.

    HEY! ANSWER ME. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU MEAN.

    -Yosi.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,155
    In my opinion that was an extraordinary case. I know you disagree.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    fine, I went back and found it "already addressed". I missed it.

    but I don't find this was adequately addressed. Since when does a judge make comments based on a plea bargain, making up details of the crime that didn't actually happen? that's ludicrous.

    for instance: a guy is charged with second degree murder. the defence makes a deal for manslaughter. would a judge say "I acknowledge you didn't actually intend to kill the victim". Judges don't generally make assumptions only for the fact that the prosecution can't prove the highest charge.
    yosi wrote:
    A judge has to work with what is given to him. The judge at the sentencing, which is where the media picked up the story, was given the plea bargain and then had to hand down a sentence based on it. His comments at sentencing pertained to the facts of the case established in the plea, NOT the facts of the initial investigation and charge.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    soo ... where is this article in haaretz?
  • TriumphantAngel
    TriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    cincybearcat wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    i wonder who you would believe if the woman was palestinian and the accused israeli?


    That's funny I wonder the same thing about others here as well.
    i find that comment really distasteful cincy. what are you basing that on and who are the ''others" you are directing that at?
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,834
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    i wonder who you would believe if the woman was palestinian and the accused israeli?


    That's funny I wonder the same thing about others here as well.
    i find that comment really distasteful cincy. what are you basing that on and who are the ''others" you are directing that at?


    Everyone. I wonder what this thread would look like if it was flipped.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,834
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:

    i wonder who you would believe if the woman was palestinian and the accused israeli?


    That's funny I wonder the same thing about others here as well.
    i find that comment really distasteful cincy. what are you basing that on and who are the ''others" you are directing that at?


    You know...after everything else I read here, I have to ask...how the hell is my comment the one that you find distasteful?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    cincybearcat wrote:

    Everyone. I wonder what this thread would look like if it was flipped.

    What do you mean by 'if it was flipped'?
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,155
    Paul, the judge's comments, as I understand them, were made in the context of handing down a sentence for the charge to which the defendant pled guilty. His comments therefore addressed the facts of the case as established in the plea. In this case the plea was rape by deception, so the judge was simply addressing the "deception" described in the plea. To point to the judge's comments after the fact as proof of what actually happened ignores the entire chronology of events, i.e. that the original charge was forcible rape, and that the only reason "deception" became an issue was because the prosecution was looking for a lesser charge for a plea bargain to which the defendant might agree.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

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