WTF is wrong with you? no, I was referring to being less-than-truthful with a woman about my intentions to get sex. That's how ridiculous this charge is.
I figured. In all seriousness I just looked up rape by deception on wiki. Apparently Mass. and Cali. have similar laws (they call it "rape by fraud"). There was a case in MA where a woman was allegedly having sex with a man she thought was her husband, but in reality it was her husbands identical twin...which is, I think we can all agree, a little different than your run of the mill fudging of the truth to get laid.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
obviously, that's different from what I'm talking about, and is also different from the case in the original post. all this guy did was go along with her thinking he was Jewish. Big fuckin' deal. If she was going to hop into bed with someone after just meeting them, then she can't complain when she finds out he wasn't who she thought he was.
If he can get charged with rape, she should get charged with being a stupid slut.
I figured. In all seriousness I just looked up rape by deception on wiki. Apparently Mass. and Cali. have similar laws (they call it "rape by fraud"). There was a case in MA where a woman was allegedly having sex with a man she thought was her husband, but in reality it was her husbands identical twin...which is, I think we can all agree, a little different than your run of the mill fudging of the truth to get laid.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
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St. Paul 2014
Dude, you obviously haven't read the entire thread. Here's the summary version from wikipedia:
An alleged case of rape by deception that drew “international outrage” when first reported later turned out to have been a plea bargain in which the records were sealed by the judge to protect the victim of a violent rape. [4] [5]
Sabar Kashur, a Palestinian Muslim accepted a plea bargain on the reduced charge of rape by deception in 2010. After Israel was widely condemned in the international press,[6] the judge unsealed the records to show that this had in fact been a plea bargain in a case in which Kashur was originally charged with violent rape of a woman who he left naked, bruised and bleeding in an apartment building stairway. [5] The court sent the victim, a woman who was also a victim of sexual abuse by her father, to a mental hospital for treatment and convicted the rapist on a lesser charge. [4] According to The Guardian, prosecutors agreed to the plea bargain in order to spare the “traumatized” victim a long cross-examination
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Dude, you obviously haven't read the entire thread. Here's the summary version from wikipedia:
An alleged case of rape by deception that drew “international outrage” when first reported later turned out to have been a plea bargain in which the records were sealed by the judge to protect the victim of a violent rape. [4] [5]
Sabar Kashur, a Palestinian Muslim accepted a plea bargain on the reduced charge of rape by deception in 2010. After Israel was widely condemned in the international press,[6] the judge unsealed the records to show that this had in fact been a plea bargain in a case in which Kashur was originally charged with violent rape of a woman who he left naked, bruised and bleeding in an apartment building stairway. [5] The court sent the victim, a woman who was also a victim of sexual abuse by her father, to a mental hospital for treatment and convicted the rapist on a lesser charge. [4] According to The Guardian, prosecutors agreed to the plea bargain in order to spare the “traumatized” victim a long cross-examination
you should also point out that the victim has filed numerous charges in the past ... and that every time she gets cross-examined by defence lawyers, she is typically confused ...
so, we get a guy who had no prior convictions and a woman who has a troubled past, who was formerly a prostitute, and who has accused many others of rape ... i'm not passing judgement as I don't know the details but it's not as one sided as your post makes it out to be ...
Perhaps. But when a woman claims to be violently raped, and the police find her naked, bruised, and bleeding in a stairwell, and the hospital finds evidence of forcible sex (vaginal tearing, etc.) I'm inclined towards believing the alleged victim, and frankly I think you would be as well if this case weren't caught up in the politics of Israel-Palestine.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Perhaps. But when a woman claims to be violently raped, and the police find her naked, bruised, and bleeding in a stairwell, and the hospital finds evidence of forcible sex (vaginal tearing, etc.) I'm inclined towards believing the alleged victim, and frankly I think you would be as well if this case weren't caught up in the politics of Israel-Palestine.
please forward where there is proof of forcible sex ... from what i read - it appears to be only heresay ... where are the records of the ambulance picking her up right after? ...
all i know is that if i violently raped someone and got a plea bargain ... i wouldn't go out and create more publicity around the event ... but that's just me ...
Dude, you obviously haven't read the entire thread. Here's the summary version from wikipedia:
An alleged case of rape by deception that drew “international outrage” when first reported later turned out to have been a plea bargain in which the records were sealed by the judge to protect the victim of a violent rape. [4] [5]
Sabar Kashur, a Palestinian Muslim accepted a plea bargain on the reduced charge of rape by deception in 2010. After Israel was widely condemned in the international press,[6] the judge unsealed the records to show that this had in fact been a plea bargain in a case in which Kashur was originally charged with violent rape of a woman who he left naked, bruised and bleeding in an apartment building stairway. [5] The court sent the victim, a woman who was also a victim of sexual abuse by her father, to a mental hospital for treatment and convicted the rapist on a lesser charge. [4] According to The Guardian, prosecutors agreed to the plea bargain in order to spare the “traumatized” victim a long cross-examination
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
According to B.'s testimony, Kashur remained on top of her for some time, and then got up and walked away, leaving her naked. Alone in the stairwell, B. started to cry.
"I was really hysterical," she testifies. At this stage, she noticed blood around her vagina, and that added to her fears. A few minutes later, her brother called, and B. asked him to contact a worker from the shelter. This woman quickly contacted B., who told her what happened.
"She [the shelter worker] said I should stay calm, and contact Magen David Adom," B. says. Later policemen came, and found B. in the stairwell. "When they arrived I was not wearing pants; that's how I was, and I was in shock," B. says. "The floor was dirty with blood, and I was really afraid to touch myself to see if I was okay; I was really scared."
Later, a Magen David Adom team showed up. B. states that she was later checked at Shaare Zedek Medical Center, Jerusalem, which documented scratches on her body. The prosecution's files contains photographs of her wounds.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
According to B.'s testimony, Kashur remained on top of her for some time, and then got up and walked away, leaving her naked. Alone in the stairwell, B. started to cry.
"I was really hysterical," she testifies. At this stage, she noticed blood around her vagina, and that added to her fears. A few minutes later, her brother called, and B. asked him to contact a worker from the shelter. This woman quickly contacted B., who told her what happened.
"She [the shelter worker] said I should stay calm, and contact Magen David Adom," B. says. Later policemen came, and found B. in the stairwell. "When they arrived I was not wearing pants; that's how I was, and I was in shock," B. says. "The floor was dirty with blood, and I was really afraid to touch myself to see if I was okay; I was really scared."
Later, a Magen David Adom team showed up. B. states that she was later checked at Shaare Zedek Medical Center, Jerusalem, which documented scratches on her body. The prosecution's files contains photographs of her wounds.
from the Guardian/UK...
Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish
not even the racist judge is saying it was "rape by force". where are you getting your info?
According to B.'s testimony, Kashur remained on top of her for some time, and then got up and walked away, leaving her naked. Alone in the stairwell, B. started to cry.
"I was really hysterical," she testifies. At this stage, she noticed blood around her vagina, and that added to her fears. A few minutes later, her brother called, and B. asked him to contact a worker from the shelter. This woman quickly contacted B., who told her what happened.
"She [the shelter worker] said I should stay calm, and contact Magen David Adom," B. says. Later policemen came, and found B. in the stairwell. "When they arrived I was not wearing pants; that's how I was, and I was in shock," B. says. "The floor was dirty with blood, and I was really afraid to touch myself to see if I was okay; I was really scared."
Later, a Magen David Adom team showed up. B. states that she was later checked at Shaare Zedek Medical Center, Jerusalem, which documented scratches on her body. The prosecution's files contains photographs of her wounds.
i'll assume the article in in hebrew or something ... in any case, there really isn't any new information here ... it appears to be who you want to believe ... i think if there was definitive proof that kashur was guilty - they would have easily convicted him ...
and like i said earlier - it's not clear cut one way or another ...
I'm inclined towards believing the alleged victim, and frankly I think you would be as well if this case weren't caught up in the politics of Israel-Palestine.
didn't you say in your post when you bumped this thread, that making assumptions makes an ass out of you?
that aside, why did you ignore my post where i responded to a point you made?
I don't, I read the article in the print version, but clearly you've seen an article on the story on your own. The point is that this guy wasn't convicted because of some sort of racist sentiment. He was facing a full on rape charge and agreed to plea to a lesser offense.
from the initial media release...
"If she hadn’t thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated," the judges said in their ruling.
as for racist sentiment Yosi, there's plenty of proof of that already. Jews are legally forbidden to intermarry in Israel. Israel, has obstructed intermarriage between its Jewish and Arab citizens by refusing to recognise such marriages unless they are performed abroad.
Perhaps. But when a woman claims to be violently raped, and the police find her naked, bruised, and bleeding in a stairwell, and the hospital finds evidence of forcible sex (vaginal tearing, etc.) I'm inclined towards believing the alleged victim, and frankly I think you would be as well if this case weren't caught up in the politics of Israel-Palestine.
if someone after the fact says if id have known they were episcopalian i never wouldve had sex with them, im inclined laugh at their idiocy. it has nothing to do with politics.
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What aren't you guys understanding? This woman didn't have sex with this guy thinking he was Jewish, and then accused him of rape when she found out he wasn't. She accused him of violently raping her. The entire Arab-Jewish thing only cam in later, as part of the plea bargain. It is entirely secondary.
Triumphant, I don't feel that I'm required to respond to everything you write, but...you are citing the initial media release. The whole point is that the initial media reports on the case were based only on the plea bargain when the case came to sentencing, which made it seem that the issue was that Kashur had lied about being Arab. Those reports were written before it was known that the initial charge was for violent rape, and that the rape by deception charge was an agreed upon plea bargain (which involves actively fitting the facts of the case to the plea being entered, hence the emphasis on the obfuscation of Kashur's being Palestinian).
As for marriage in Israel, many Jews are forbidden from marrying other Jews as well. It's a complex issue having to do with the role of religion (specifically Orthodox authorities) in the state. But Israel recognizes all marriages performed abroad, regardless of the religious identities of those involved.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
thing is the initial media releases quote the judges themselves, the very individuals who's job it is to find out these things....
"If she hadn’t thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated," the judges said in their ruling.
co-operated being the key word.
the forcible rape story doesn't add up, given the judges ruling, opinions....that story only seemed to surface after the government realized they were racist.
A judge has to work with what is given to him. The judge at the sentencing, which is where the media picked up the story, was given the plea bargain and then had to hand down a sentence based on it. His comments at sentencing pertained to the facts of the case established in the plea, NOT the facts of the initial investigation and charge.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
A judge has to work with what is given to him. The judge at the sentencing, which is where the media picked up the story, was given the plea bargain and then had to hand down a sentence based on it. His comments at sentencing pertained to the facts of the case established in the plea, NOT the facts of the initial investigation and charge.
so the judge at the sentencing wasnt present at the trial?
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I don't know, but it doesn't really matter. Once the plea is signed the judge is bound by it. There are those that feel that the sentence handed down was too severe for the lesser charge of rape by deception, so maybe the judge took account of the initial charge of forcible rape when deciding on the sentence. But even if this was the case the plea precludes him from saying so publicly. His public comments, those that the media had access to, were bound by the constraints of the plea.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I don't know, but it doesn't really matter. Once the plea is signed the judge is bound by it. There are those that feel that the sentence handed down was too severe for the lesser charge of rape by deception, so maybe the judge took account of the initial charge of forcible rape when deciding on the sentence. But even if this was the case the plea precludes him from saying so publicly. His public comments, those that the media had access to, were bound by the constraints of the plea.
well considering what a bullshit charge rape by deception is, im not surprised some feel the sentence was too severe.
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I'm not so sure it's a bullshit charge. The whole idea of rape is that you are obtaining sex without the consent of the woman. The fact that you do so through fraud rather than force is a change in degree, but not really in kind. If a woman only "consents" because she is the victim of a fraud, I don't really think that is consent. It's still a violation.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I'm not so sure it's a bullshit charge. The whole idea of rape is that you are obtaining sex without the consent of the woman. The fact that you do so through fraud rather than force is a change in degree, but not really in kind. If a woman only "consents" because she is the victim of a fraud, I don't really think that is consent. It's still a violation.
i love you baby. you mean the world to me. no im not marrried who told you that???
3 minutes later the fucker is out the door hightailing it back to the wife and kids after having gotten what he wanted.......................by deception. rape?
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No. I'm thinking more along the lines of a guy pretending to be his own brother (identical twins) to sleep with his brother's girlfriend/wife. Something where the fraud is more substantial than just lying and being a general sleazy douche.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Another example...a guy pretends to be a doctor so that he can sexually molest women. We "consent" to get naked in front of doctors, and we let them touch us in places that are normally off limits. I know that I'd feel violated if I found out that the guy handling my nuts wasn't actually a doctor, but was just some fucked up psycho.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
No. I'm thinking more along the lines of a guy pretending to be his own brother (identical twins) to sleep with his brother's girlfriend/wife. Something where the fraud is more substantial than just lying and being a general sleazy douche.
We're not talking pretending to be another person or a person 'in authority' (like a doctor..). Just someone of a different nationality/religion.
Well look, you don't have to like it, but such things matter to a lot of people all over the world. If it important to a woman that a man be x, y, or z for her to consent to sleep with him it is her right to demand that. I understand entirely the other side of the argument, but I don't think it is illogical to extend the definition of rape beyond obtaining sex by force. The underlying idea is to protect the woman's right to freely choose her partner, as well as her right to refuse, and I don't think a choice is really made freely if it is made as a result of fraud.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Well look, you don't have to like it, but such things matter to a lot of people all over the world. If it important to a woman that a man be x, y, or z for her to consent to sleep with him it is her right to demand that. I understand entirely the other side of the argument, but I don't think it is illogical to extend the definition of rape beyond obtaining sex by force. The underlying idea is to protect the woman's right to freely choose her partner, as well as her right to refuse, and I don't think a choice is really made freely if it is made as a result of fraud.
youre missing the point yosi. she did freely choose. did he say lets have sex.. its ok im jewish? i dunno i wasnt there. seems to me she didnt even ask. why? cause it probably wasnt important in the heat of things.
i never would have had sex with him had i known he wasnt a jew. if someone said that after you had sex with them what would you think? if someone used that as the basis for a charge of rape by 'deception' against you what would you think? did she consent to sex? yes. calling rape after you discover the person you had sex with isnt of your religion/ethnicity/whatever isnt that person gaining sex by deception. its a case of the regrets.
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Comments
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"I'll only make it
I'll only make it with Jews
(anytime, anywhere....)"
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
If he can get charged with rape, she should get charged with being a stupid slut.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
An alleged case of rape by deception that drew “international outrage” when first reported later turned out to have been a plea bargain in which the records were sealed by the judge to protect the victim of a violent rape. [4] [5]
Sabar Kashur, a Palestinian Muslim accepted a plea bargain on the reduced charge of rape by deception in 2010. After Israel was widely condemned in the international press,[6] the judge unsealed the records to show that this had in fact been a plea bargain in a case in which Kashur was originally charged with violent rape of a woman who he left naked, bruised and bleeding in an apartment building stairway. [5] The court sent the victim, a woman who was also a victim of sexual abuse by her father, to a mental hospital for treatment and convicted the rapist on a lesser charge. [4] According to The Guardian, prosecutors agreed to the plea bargain in order to spare the “traumatized” victim a long cross-examination
you should also point out that the victim has filed numerous charges in the past ... and that every time she gets cross-examined by defence lawyers, she is typically confused ...
so, we get a guy who had no prior convictions and a woman who has a troubled past, who was formerly a prostitute, and who has accused many others of rape ... i'm not passing judgement as I don't know the details but it's not as one sided as your post makes it out to be ...
please forward where there is proof of forcible sex ... from what i read - it appears to be only heresay ... where are the records of the ambulance picking her up right after? ...
all i know is that if i violently raped someone and got a plea bargain ... i wouldn't go out and create more publicity around the event ... but that's just me ...
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
According to B.'s testimony, Kashur remained on top of her for some time, and then got up and walked away, leaving her naked. Alone in the stairwell, B. started to cry.
"I was really hysterical," she testifies. At this stage, she noticed blood around her vagina, and that added to her fears. A few minutes later, her brother called, and B. asked him to contact a worker from the shelter. This woman quickly contacted B., who told her what happened.
"She [the shelter worker] said I should stay calm, and contact Magen David Adom," B. says. Later policemen came, and found B. in the stairwell. "When they arrived I was not wearing pants; that's how I was, and I was in shock," B. says. "The floor was dirty with blood, and I was really afraid to touch myself to see if I was okay; I was really scared."
Later, a Magen David Adom team showed up. B. states that she was later checked at Shaare Zedek Medical Center, Jerusalem, which documented scratches on her body. The prosecution's files contains photographs of her wounds.
from the Guardian/UK...
Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish
not even the racist judge is saying it was "rape by force". where are you getting your info?
i'll assume the article in in hebrew or something ... in any case, there really isn't any new information here ... it appears to be who you want to believe ... i think if there was definitive proof that kashur was guilty - they would have easily convicted him ...
and like i said earlier - it's not clear cut one way or another ...
that aside, why did you ignore my post where i responded to a point you made?
if someone after the fact says if id have known they were episcopalian i never wouldve had sex with them, im inclined laugh at their idiocy. it has nothing to do with politics.
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Triumphant, I don't feel that I'm required to respond to everything you write, but...you are citing the initial media release. The whole point is that the initial media reports on the case were based only on the plea bargain when the case came to sentencing, which made it seem that the issue was that Kashur had lied about being Arab. Those reports were written before it was known that the initial charge was for violent rape, and that the rape by deception charge was an agreed upon plea bargain (which involves actively fitting the facts of the case to the plea being entered, hence the emphasis on the obfuscation of Kashur's being Palestinian).
As for marriage in Israel, many Jews are forbidden from marrying other Jews as well. It's a complex issue having to do with the role of religion (specifically Orthodox authorities) in the state. But Israel recognizes all marriages performed abroad, regardless of the religious identities of those involved.
"If she hadn’t thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated," the judges said in their ruling.
co-operated being the key word.
the forcible rape story doesn't add up, given the judges ruling, opinions....that story only seemed to surface after the government realized they were racist.
so the judge at the sentencing wasnt present at the trial?
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well considering what a bullshit charge rape by deception is, im not surprised some feel the sentence was too severe.
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i love you baby. you mean the world to me. no im not marrried who told you that???
3 minutes later the fucker is out the door hightailing it back to the wife and kids after having gotten what he wanted.......................by deception. rape?
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dont' think so.
We're not talking pretending to be another person or a person 'in authority' (like a doctor..). Just someone of a different nationality/religion.
youre missing the point yosi. she did freely choose. did he say lets have sex.. its ok im jewish? i dunno i wasnt there. seems to me she didnt even ask. why? cause it probably wasnt important in the heat of things.
i never would have had sex with him had i known he wasnt a jew. if someone said that after you had sex with them what would you think? if someone used that as the basis for a charge of rape by 'deception' against you what would you think? did she consent to sex? yes. calling rape after you discover the person you had sex with isnt of your religion/ethnicity/whatever isnt that person gaining sex by deception. its a case of the regrets.
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