israel sentences arab to 18months for consentual sex

Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
edited September 2010 in A Moving Train
what a backwards country! i see why the us state dept says they are an intolerant society and apparently racist, though no one really needed this article to prove that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... al-sex-jew

Arab guilty of rape after consensual sex with Jew

A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after the court ruled that he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left.

When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.

Although Kashur was initially charged with rape and indecent assault, this was changed to a charge of rape by deception as part of a plea bargain arrangement.

Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish.

The sex therefore was obtained under false pretences, the judges said. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," they added.

The court ruled that Kashur should receive a jail term and rejected the option of a six-month community service order. He was said to be seeking to appeal.

Segal said: "The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls. When the very basis of trust between human beings drops, especially when the matters at hand are so intimate, sensitive and fateful, the court is required to stand firmly at the side of the victims – actual and potential – to protect their wellbeing. Otherwise, they will be used, manipulated and misled, while paying only a tolerable and symbolic price."

Gideon Levy, a liberal Israeli commentator, was quoted as saying: "I would like to raise only one question with the judge. What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman?

"Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not."

Arabs constitute about 20% of Israel's population, but relationships between Jews and Arabs are rare. There are few mixed neighbourhoods or towns, and Arabs suffer routine discrimination.

Israeli MPs are considering a law requiring prospective Israeli citizens to declare loyalty to Israel as a "Jewish, democratic state". Many Arabs would balk at swearing allegiance to a state which they see as explicitly excluding or marginalising them.

Dan Meridor, a deputy prime minister in Binyamin Netanyahu's government, is opposed to the proposal. "Why does every bill need the word 'Jewish' in it – to show the Arab citizens that it doesn't belong to them? Then we're all shocked when they radicalise their stance.

"The majority doesn't need to remind the minority that it is in fact a minority all the time," he added.
don't compete; coexist

what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    Man, I'm going to have to stop pretending to be Tiger Woods. Didn't know you could go to jail for that.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    Pepe, for once I agree with you. I read this the other day and my mouth dropped open. But you do realize that this was one judge and not a whole country that convicted the poor sucker, right?
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • TriumphantAngelTriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    rafie wrote:
    Pepe, for once I agree with you. I read this the other day and my mouth dropped open. But you do realize that this was one judge and not a whole country that convicted the poor sucker, right?
    one racist judge, mirroring the thoughts of many others apparently. disgusting.

    Israel bids to stop interracial dating

    By Jonathan Cook, Middle-East Online – 25 Sept 2009
    http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=34559

    Israel sets up special team to identify young Jewish women dating Arab men to stop them

    NAZARETH, Israel

    A local authority in Israel has announced that it is establishing a special team of youth counsellors and psychologists whose job it will be to identify young Jewish women who are dating Arab men and “rescue” them.

    The move by the municipality of Petah Tikva, a city close to Tel Aviv, is the latest in a series of separate – and little discussed – initiatives from official bodies, rabbis, private organisations and groups of Israeli residents to try to prevent interracial dating and marriage.

    In a related development, the Israeli media reported this month that residents of Pisgat Zeev, a large Jewish settlement in the midst of Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem, had formed a vigilante-style patrol to stop Arab men from mixing with local Jewish girls.

    Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel’s ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state’s Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with “national treason”.

    Since the state’s founding in 1948, analysts have noted, a series of legal and administrative measures have been taken by Israel to limit the possibilities of close links developing between Jewish and Arab citizens, the latter comprising a fifth of the population.


    Largely segregated communities and separate education systems mean that there are few opportunities for young Arabs and Jews to become familiarised with each other. Even in the handful of “mixed cities”, Arab residents are usually confined to separate neighbourhoods.

    In addition, civil marriage is banned in Israel, meaning that in the small number of cases where Jews and Arabs want to wed, they can do so only by leaving the country for a ceremony abroad. The marriage is recognised on the couple’s return.


    Dr Yuval Yonay, a sociologist at Haifa University, said the number of interracial marriages was “too small to be studied”. “Separation between Jews and Arabs is so ingrained in Israeli society, it is surprising that anyone manages to escape these central controls.”


    The team in Petah Tikva, a Jewish city of 200,000 residents, was created in direct response to news that two Jewish girls, aged 17 and 19, were accompanying a group of young Arab men when they allegedly beat a Jewish man, Leonard Karp, to death last month on a Tel Aviv beach. The older girl was from Petah Tikva.


    The girls’ involvement with the Arab youths has revived general concern that a once-firm taboo against interracial dating is beginning to erode among some young people.


    In sentiments widely shared, Hezi Hakak, a spokesman for Petah Tikva municipality, said “Russian girls”, young Jewish women whose parents arrived in Israel over the past two decades, since the former Soviet Union collapsed, were particularly vulnerable to the attention of Arab men.


    Dr Yonay said Russian women were less closed to the idea of relationships with Arab men because they “did not undergo the religious and Zionist education” to which more established Israeli Jews were subject.


    Mr Hakak said the municipality had created a hotline that parents and friends of the Jewish women could use to inform on them.


    “We can’t tell the girls what to do but we can send a psychologist to their home to offer them and their parents advice,” he said.


    Motti Zaft, the deputy mayor, told the Ynet website that the municipality was also cracking down on city homeowners who illegally subdivide apartments to rent them cheaply to single Arab men looking for work in the Tel Aviv area. He estimated that several hundred Arab men had moved into the city as a result.


    Petah Tikva’s hostility to Arab men mixing with local Jewish women is shared by other communities.


    In Pisgat Zeev, a settlement of 40,000 Jews, some 35 Jewish men are reported to belong to a patrol known as “Fire for Judaism” that tries to stop interracial dating.


    Unusually for a settlement, Pisgat Zeev has attracted a tiny but growing population of Arab families, both from East Jerusalem and from inside Israel. Because Pisgat Zeev sits within Jerusalem’s municipal borders, Arabs with Israeli residency rights can live there as long as Jewish settlers are willing to rent to them.


    One member, who identified himself as Moshe to the Jerusalem Post newspaper, said: “Our goal is to be in contact with these girls and try to explain to them the dangers of what they’re getting themselves into. In the last 10 years, 60 girls from Pisgat Zeev have gone into [Palestinian] villages [in the West Bank]. And most of them aren’t heard from after that.”


    He denied that violence or threats were used against Arab men.

    Last year, the municipality of Kiryat Gat, a town of 50,000 Jews in southern Israel, launched a programme in schools to warn Jewish girls of the dangers of dating local Bedouin men. The girls were shown a video titled Sleeping with the Enemy, which describes mixed couples as an “unnatural phenomenon”.


    Haim Shalom, head of the municipality’s welfare department, is filmed saying: “The girls, in their innocence, go with the exploitative Arab.”


    In 2004, posters sprang up all over the northern town of Safed warning Jewish women that dating Arab men would lead to “beatings, hard drugs, prostitution and crime”.

    Safed’s chief rabbi, Shmuel Eliyahu, told a local newspaper that the “seducing” of Jewish girls was “another form of war” by Arab men.


    Both Kiryat Gat and Safed’s campaigns were supported by a religious organisation called Yad L’achim, which runs an anti-assimilation team publicly dedicated to “saving” Jewish women.


    According to its website, the organisation receives more than 100 calls a month about Jewish women living with Arab men, both in Israel and the West Bank. It launches “military-like rescues [of the women] from hostile Arab villages” in co-ordination with the police and army.


    “The Jewish soul is a precious, all-too-rare resource, and we are not prepared to give up on even a single one,” says the website.
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    They must have been inspired by the Nazi's.. oh, wait, I guess they were worse. :?
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    When the Arabs stop beating women for walking with a man she is not married to then complain. When the Arabs stop treating woman like they are dogs then complain.

    For the record I don't agree with the result of the thread topic. However they should not complain until they themselves ensure equality.
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    unsung wrote:
    When the Arabs stop beating women for walking with a man she is not married to then complain. When the Arabs stop treating woman like they are dogs then complain.

    For the record I don't agree with the result of the thread topic. However they should not complain until they themselves ensure equality.
    "The Arabs"? brilliant word choice. i guess when the blacks stop buying and selling drugs and participating in gangs, then they can complain about anything.

    it's amazing how people get away with so much blatant racism.
  • TriumphantAngelTriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    unsung wrote:
    When the Arabs stop beating women for walking with a man she is not married to then complain. When the Arabs stop treating woman like they are dogs then complain.

    For the record I don't agree with the result of the thread topic. However they should not complain until they themselves ensure equality.
    i can't believe you just wrote that.

    really, i cant.
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Incredible verdict. I get that this wasn't "the state of Israel" passing judgement but rather one judge ruling in favour of a racist bitch's law suit. But it does show the undercurrent of blatant hate towards arabs that exist in parts of the Israeli population. The palestinians do not corner the market on irrational hate, if anyone believed that.

    What makes this kindof funny though, is that you apparently really can't tell arabs and jews apart. She had to ask if he was a jew, meaning there's no way to see the difference either in many cases.

    A man lied and got consentual sex in return. The woman feels cheated, I get that, but a rape charge? This is more in the line of which rape sentences was used before, to restore the family's and woman's honour after indiscreet activities with disliked individuals of a certain group. She should just take it on the chin, and check passports or whatever in the future if she's such a racist.

    Peacë
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Paul AndrewsPaul Andrews Posts: 2,489
    It appears all nations, societies and cultures are becoming more polarised in their hatred and bias. Just when the world needs leadership and love we see more examples of hatred - people not learning from history.

    Dems v GOP, Liberal v Labor, Tory v Labor, Gay v Straight, Arab v Jew v Black v Latino v White v Asian, 'Football v Football, 'Terror' v 'Freedom', Rich v Poor,, Wall St v Main St, FoxNews v Sanity...

    Fuck, I just hope it never get to Man v Woman: As Joe Jackson sang 'If there's war between the sexes then there'll be no people left...'

    Real Men - Joe Jackson (1982)

    Take your mind back
    I don't know when
    Sometime when it always seemed
    To be just us and them
    Girls that wore pink
    Boys that wore blue
    Boys that always grew up better men
    Than me and you

    What's a man now
    What's a man mean
    Is he rough or is he rugged
    Cultural and clean?
    Now it's all changed
    It's got to change more
    We think it's getting better
    But nobody's really sure

    And so it goes, go round again
    But now and then we wonder who the real men are

    See the nice boys
    Dancing in pairs
    Golden earring, golden tan
    Blow-wave in the hair
    Sure they're all straight
    Straight as a line
    All the guys are macho
    See their leather shine

    You don't want to sound dumb
    Don't want to offend
    So don't call me a faggot
    Not unless you are a friend
    Then if you're tall, handsome and strong
    You can wear the uniform and I could play along

    And so it goes, go round again
    But now and then we wonder who the real men are

    Time to get scared
    Time to change plan
    Don't know how to treat a lady
    Don't know how to be a man
    Time to admit
    What you call defeat
    'cause there's women running past you now
    And you just drag your feet

    Man makes a gun
    Man goes to war
    Man can kill and man can drink
    And man can take a whore
    Kill all the blacks
    Kill all the reds
    If there's war between the sexes
    Then there will be no people left

    And so it goes, go round again
    But now and then we wonder who the real men are
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    edited July 2010
    _outlaw wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    When the Arabs stop beating women for walking with a man she is not married to then complain. When the Arabs stop treating woman like they are dogs then complain.

    For the record I don't agree with the result of the thread topic. However they should not complain until they themselves ensure equality.
    "The Arabs"? brilliant word choice. i guess when the blacks stop buying and selling drugs and participating in gangs, then they can complain about anything.

    it's amazing how people get away with so much blatant racism.


    Oh please it isn't anything like that and you know it. In many countries that culture treats women like pieces of meat and nothing more.

    I did think about this and I will amend my original comment and say that they do of course have the right to complain. However I also believe women have a very long way to go in terms of equality.
    Post edited by unsung on
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    rafie wrote:
    Pepe, for once I agree with you. I read this the other day and my mouth dropped open. But you do realize that this was one judge and not a whole country that convicted the poor sucker, right?
    one racist judge, mirroring the thoughts of many others apparently. disgusting.

    Israel bids to stop interracial dating

    By Jonathan Cook, Middle-East Online – 25 Sept 2009
    http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=34559

    Israel sets up special team to identify young Jewish women dating Arab men to stop them

    NAZARETH, Israel

    A local authority in Israel has announced that it is establishing a special team of youth counsellors and psychologists whose job it will be to identify young Jewish women who are dating Arab men and “rescue” them.

    The move by the municipality of Petah Tikva, a city close to Tel Aviv, is the latest in a series of separate – and little discussed – initiatives from official bodies, rabbis, private organisations and groups of Israeli residents to try to prevent interracial dating and marriage.

    In a related development, the Israeli media reported this month that residents of Pisgat Zeev, a large Jewish settlement in the midst of Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem, had formed a vigilante-style patrol to stop Arab men from mixing with local Jewish girls.

    Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel’s ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state’s Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with “national treason”.

    Since the state’s founding in 1948, analysts have noted, a series of legal and administrative measures have been taken by Israel to limit the possibilities of close links developing between Jewish and Arab citizens, the latter comprising a fifth of the population.


    Largely segregated communities and separate education systems mean that there are few opportunities for young Arabs and Jews to become familiarised with each other. Even in the handful of “mixed cities”, Arab residents are usually confined to separate neighbourhoods.

    In addition, civil marriage is banned in Israel, meaning that in the small number of cases where Jews and Arabs want to wed, they can do so only by leaving the country for a ceremony abroad. The marriage is recognised on the couple’s return.


    Dr Yuval Yonay, a sociologist at Haifa University, said the number of interracial marriages was “too small to be studied”. “Separation between Jews and Arabs is so ingrained in Israeli society, it is surprising that anyone manages to escape these central controls.”


    The team in Petah Tikva, a Jewish city of 200,000 residents, was created in direct response to news that two Jewish girls, aged 17 and 19, were accompanying a group of young Arab men when they allegedly beat a Jewish man, Leonard Karp, to death last month on a Tel Aviv beach. The older girl was from Petah Tikva.


    The girls’ involvement with the Arab youths has revived general concern that a once-firm taboo against interracial dating is beginning to erode among some young people.


    In sentiments widely shared, Hezi Hakak, a spokesman for Petah Tikva municipality, said “Russian girls”, young Jewish women whose parents arrived in Israel over the past two decades, since the former Soviet Union collapsed, were particularly vulnerable to the attention of Arab men.


    Dr Yonay said Russian women were less closed to the idea of relationships with Arab men because they “did not undergo the religious and Zionist education” to which more established Israeli Jews were subject.


    Mr Hakak said the municipality had created a hotline that parents and friends of the Jewish women could use to inform on them.


    “We can’t tell the girls what to do but we can send a psychologist to their home to offer them and their parents advice,” he said.


    Motti Zaft, the deputy mayor, told the Ynet website that the municipality was also cracking down on city homeowners who illegally subdivide apartments to rent them cheaply to single Arab men looking for work in the Tel Aviv area. He estimated that several hundred Arab men had moved into the city as a result.


    Petah Tikva’s hostility to Arab men mixing with local Jewish women is shared by other communities.


    In Pisgat Zeev, a settlement of 40,000 Jews, some 35 Jewish men are reported to belong to a patrol known as “Fire for Judaism” that tries to stop interracial dating.


    Unusually for a settlement, Pisgat Zeev has attracted a tiny but growing population of Arab families, both from East Jerusalem and from inside Israel. Because Pisgat Zeev sits within Jerusalem’s municipal borders, Arabs with Israeli residency rights can live there as long as Jewish settlers are willing to rent to them.


    One member, who identified himself as Moshe to the Jerusalem Post newspaper, said: “Our goal is to be in contact with these girls and try to explain to them the dangers of what they’re getting themselves into. In the last 10 years, 60 girls from Pisgat Zeev have gone into [Palestinian] villages [in the West Bank]. And most of them aren’t heard from after that.”


    He denied that violence or threats were used against Arab men.

    Last year, the municipality of Kiryat Gat, a town of 50,000 Jews in southern Israel, launched a programme in schools to warn Jewish girls of the dangers of dating local Bedouin men. The girls were shown a video titled Sleeping with the Enemy, which describes mixed couples as an “unnatural phenomenon”.


    Haim Shalom, head of the municipality’s welfare department, is filmed saying: “The girls, in their innocence, go with the exploitative Arab.”


    In 2004, posters sprang up all over the northern town of Safed warning Jewish women that dating Arab men would lead to “beatings, hard drugs, prostitution and crime”.

    Safed’s chief rabbi, Shmuel Eliyahu, told a local newspaper that the “seducing” of Jewish girls was “another form of war” by Arab men.


    Both Kiryat Gat and Safed’s campaigns were supported by a religious organisation called Yad L’achim, which runs an anti-assimilation team publicly dedicated to “saving” Jewish women.


    According to its website, the organisation receives more than 100 calls a month about Jewish women living with Arab men, both in Israel and the West Bank. It launches “military-like rescues [of the women] from hostile Arab villages” in co-ordination with the police and army.


    “The Jewish soul is a precious, all-too-rare resource, and we are not prepared to give up on even a single one,” says the website.

    I actually live in Petach Tikva and never heard of this initiative before I started coming to the moving train. Just goes to show you how serious it actually was.
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    it was actually three judges that decided this, not just a single person
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    it was actually three judges that decided this, not just a single person
    I just read another article on the subject (it is in hebrew, so I am not putting a link here) and it turns out that the punishment was part of a plea bargain signed by the accused (the minimum punishment for someone accused of rape in Israel is 4 years in prison). So it looks like the judges just approved the deal and were not the ones to decide the punishment. Despite that, I still think this is messed up.
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • TriumphantAngelTriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    rafie wrote:
    it was actually three judges that decided this, not just a single person
    I just read another article on the subject (it is in hebrew, so I am not putting a link here) and it turns out that the punishment was part of a plea bargain signed by the accused (the minimum punishment for someone accused of rape in Israel is 4 years in prison). So it looks like the judges just approved the deal and were not the ones to decide the punishment. Despite that, I still think this is messed up.
    good morning,

    i'm from the hasbara department of the Israeli foreign ministry.

    love

    rafie.
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    rafie wrote:
    it was actually three judges that decided this, not just a single person
    I just read another article on the subject (it is in hebrew, so I am not putting a link here) and it turns out that the punishment was part of a plea bargain signed by the accused (the minimum punishment for someone accused of rape in Israel is 4 years in prison). So it looks like the judges just approved the deal and were not the ones to decide the punishment. Despite that, I still think this is messed up.
    good morning,

    i'm from the hasbara department of the Israeli foreign ministry.

    love

    rafie.

    Do you really find it so hard to believe that people have different ideas and thoughts than you? I have continually tried to answer your posts and questions to me in a polite, direct and informative manner, little did I know I was dealing with an immature troll. Have a good weekend, I'm done with you.
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • TriumphantAngelTriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    rafie wrote:
    Do you really find it so hard to believe that people have different ideas and thoughts than you? I have continually tried to answer your posts and questions to me in a polite, direct and informative manner, little did I know I was dealing with an immature troll. Have a good weekend, I'm done with you.
    actually i have no problem with people having different thoughts to me. it usually encourages healthy debate and we can learn something from each other.

    i also have no problem with you ignoring me. i've learned with people like you, that no amount of reasoned argument or intellectual maturity has any effect. the fact that you ignored unsungs racist comment, which by the way is one of the worst things i've ever seen written on these forums, and then proceeded to attempt to deflect criticism away from the judges, shows just how much of an apologist you are. lets defend the judges, but screw the racist comment aimed at all arabs right?

    you don't want reasoned debate. all that matters to you is that you sabotage all criticism of Israel. If you had ever bothered to read any of my posts over the time here, you will see that i am not just critical of Israel. i have talked plenty about my displeasure also towards the US, Hamas and Egypt.

    there's over 500,000 children in the occupied territories who have lived under siege all of their lives. you can keep playing semantics and arguing with pepe over the word "despite," and the word "occupied" with me. i don't give a shit. whatever turns you on. if that's more important to you than the welfare of those ordinary Palestinians who Israel is subjecting to cruel, illegal and inhumane treament every single day, well, you're not someone i would ever want anything to do with anyway.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    rafie wrote:
    it was actually three judges that decided this, not just a single person
    I just read another article on the subject (it is in hebrew, so I am not putting a link here) and it turns out that the punishment was part of a plea bargain signed by the accused (the minimum punishment for someone accused of rape in Israel is 4 years in prison). So it looks like the judges just approved the deal and were not the ones to decide the punishment. Despite that, I still think this is messed up.

    The point is there should not have been any plea bargaining because this man should not have been arrested. The judges could have just let him go - but of course they wouldn't.
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    redrock wrote:
    rafie wrote:
    it was actually three judges that decided this, not just a single person
    I just read another article on the subject (it is in hebrew, so I am not putting a link here) and it turns out that the punishment was part of a plea bargain signed by the accused (the minimum punishment for someone accused of rape in Israel is 4 years in prison). So it looks like the judges just approved the deal and were not the ones to decide the punishment. Despite that, I still think this is messed up.

    The point is there should not have been any plea bargaining because this man should not have been arrested. The judges could have just let him go - but of course they wouldn't.
    As I said in my first post in this thread, for once I agree with you.
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    Saber Kushour: 'My conviction for "rape by deception" has ruined my life'
    Saber Kushour, an Arab convicted of 'rape by deception' of a Jewish woman, gives his side of the story in an exclusive interview


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... ion-charge

    Saber Kushour apologises as he asks his guests to move the plastic chairs on his breeze-block balcony a little closer to the door to his house. If he were to sit where they are now, he explains, the electronic tag attached to his ankle would set off an alarm.

    Kushour's edginess is understandable – he is recalling a 15-minute encounter almost two years ago which he says "has destroyed my life".

    Last week the married father of two from east Jerusalem was sentenced to 18 months in jail for the "rape by deception" of a Jewish woman who claimed she would not have had sex with him had she known he was an Arab. What might have been a tawdry episode – casting neither Kushour nor the woman in a favourable light – exploded into a debate in Israel about racism, sexual mores and justice.

    "I am paying the price for a mistake that she made," Kushour, 30, told the Observer. "I was shocked at the sentence – it shows a very vivid and clear racism." The message from the judge, he says, was that "because you are an Arab and you didn't make that clear, we are going to punish you".

    In his verdict, Judge Zvi Segal conceded that it was not "a classical rape by force". He added: "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated. The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls."

    At his home in Sharafat, where he is confined while awaiting an appeal, Kushour tells a different story. The woman has not been identified and has not gone public with her account.

    Kushour was buying cigarettes in September 2008 when an unexpected opportunity presented itself for a casual sexual encounter. "Any person in my shoes would have done the same thing," he says.

    A woman in her 20s struck up a conversation as he left the shop to return to his job delivering legal papers around Jerusalem by scooter. "She said 'you have a nice bike' and other things which I don't remember." Within minutes, he says, he realised that her interest was not confined to small talk.

    Kushour speaks fluent, unaccented Hebrew, as do many Palestinians living and working in Jerusalem. The woman asked his name and Kushour replied "Dudu" – a common Israeli name. "Since I was a kid everyone calls me Dudu – even my wife calls me Dudu. It's a nickname." At no point, he says, did the woman – who gave her name as Maya – ask if he was Jewish, although he has acknowledged that he said he was single.

    The pair went to a small roof area in a nearby office block. "When we were having sex, she was worried that someone would see us, but she never told me to stop. She was more than willing – she initiated it."

    It has been suggested that Kushour presented himself as a bachelor interested in a long-term relationship. If that had been Maya's concern, Kushour points out, she might have asked him more about his background. After the brief encounter, Kushour tapped Maya's mobile number into his phone and left. "I didn't treat her like garbage – this is what she wanted."

    Unknown to him, Maya contacted the police after the encounter to lodge a complaint. Kushour says he doesn't know how or when she realised he was not Jewish. The woman was given a medical examination, presented in court, which showed, according to Kushour, no signs of force or injury.

    Six weeks later Kushour was idly flicking through numbers in his mobile's address book. "I saw 'Maya' and I thought 'who is Maya?' I had already forgotten about her. I rang the number to see who it was, and then I realised it was the girl. I said 'Can I see you?' and we arranged to meet."

    Maya didn't show up and didn't respond to Kushour's calls and texts. But, crucially, she now had a vital piece of information for the pursuit of her complaint – his contact details.

    Three days later Kushour received a phone call from the police. "They told me I had a problem and to come to the police station." He was interrogated for five to six hours, without a lawyer.

    In the final hour of questioning, the police began to mention a rape claim. Eventually Kushour was handcuffed and taken to a cell. Over three days the questioning continued. "This was the hardest moment of my entire life," says Kushour. "I didn't have a clue what they were going to do." On the third day, Kushour was taken to court – by this time represented by a lawyer found by his brother – and charged with rape. He spent the next two months in prison and since then has been electronically tagged and confined to his home. The case came to court last week. His lawyer has told him that, because of the publicity surrounding the case, the appeal may be expedited. In the meantime, says Kushour, "I can't leave the house, I can't work, I can't feed my children."

    Kushour's conviction has transfixed Israel. Some see echoes of a primeval – and racist – instinct to protect "our" women against outside marauders. Others are outraged at what they see as a blatant injustice, pointing to a backdrop of widespread, systematic and – some say – growing discrimination against Arabs who make up 20% of Israel's population.

    "This is a most amazing decision by the court," says Tamar Hermann of the Israel Democracy Institute. "Deception is one thing – but to be convicted of rape?" It has, she says, "struck a sensitive chord in the Israeli mainstream of Arabs pretending to be Jews."

    The issue of identity is paramount in a land where both communities regard each other with suspicion and hostility.

    Yuval Yonay, a sociology professor at Haifa University, in one of Israel's few mixed cities, says Kushour's behaviour "might be improper but it is not rape".

    He says that in 16 years of teaching at a university where 20-25% of the student population is Arab, he has "never even heard of a mixed relationship". Discrimination against Arabs is, he says, evident at all levels.

    Some have defended the verdict. "We all have different characteristics, and it is a person's right to have sexual relations with a person knowing the facts about those characteristics," Dana Pugach of the Noga Centre for Victims of Crime told the Israeli daily Haaretz.

    Kushour says he has had a lot of support over the past week from Israeli Jews. "The problem is not with the people themselves, but those in power," he says. "I just want justice."

    Whatever the outcome of his appeal, his brief encounter with Maya has turned his life upside down. His relationship with his wife has been severely tested. "I asked her last night to forgive me. She said yes, but I can see the pain and hurt in her eyes."
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497

    married father of two

    "Any person in my shoes would have done the same thing,"

    "even my wife calls me Dudu. It's a nickname."


    Ok, this guy certainly doesn't deserve a punishment for the crime they say he committed.

    But, man is he a slimeball. I'd say that the majority of people in his position would have certainly NOT done the same thing.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Not against the law to be a slimeball. He should get his, but I would say a good kick in the nuts from the woman accusing him would have been sufficient to satisfy me. ;)

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    the guy tells a different story...he claims he met her on the street, she struck up a conversation with him, she asked his name which is a common nickname for jews and then she asked him for a ride....he's still a dick because he was married but according to him a serious relationship or ethnicity never came up.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... ion-charge



    Saber Kushour: 'My conviction for "rape by deception" has ruined my life'

    Saber Kushour, an Arab convicted of 'rape by deception' of a Jewish woman, gives his side of the story in an exclusive interview


    Saber Kushour apologises as he asks his guests to move the plastic chairs on his breeze-block balcony a little closer to the door to his house. If he were to sit where they are now, he explains, the electronic tag attached to his ankle would set off an alarm.

    Kushour's edginess is understandable – he is recalling a 15-minute encounter almost two years ago which he says "has destroyed my life".

    Last week the married father of two from east Jerusalem was sentenced to 18 months in jail for the "rape by deception" of a Jewish woman who claimed she would not have had sex with him had she known he was an Arab. What might have been a tawdry episode – casting neither Kushour nor the woman in a favourable light – exploded into a debate in Israel about racism, sexual mores and justice.

    "I am paying the price for a mistake that she made," Kushour, 30, told the Observer. "I was shocked at the sentence – it shows a very vivid and clear racism." The message from the judge, he says, was that "because you are an Arab and you didn't make that clear, we are going to punish you".

    In his verdict, Judge Zvi Segal conceded that it was not "a classical rape by force". He added: "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated. The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls."

    At his home in Sharafat, where he is confined while awaiting an appeal, Kushour tells a different story. The woman has not been identified and has not gone public with her account.

    Kushour was buying cigarettes in September 2008 when an unexpected opportunity presented itself for a casual sexual encounter. "Any person in my shoes would have done the same thing," he says.

    A woman in her 20s struck up a conversation as he left the shop to return to his job delivering legal papers around Jerusalem by scooter. "She said 'you have a nice bike' and other things which I don't remember." Within minutes, he says, he realised that her interest was not confined to small talk.

    Kushour speaks fluent, unaccented Hebrew, as do many Palestinians living and working in Jerusalem. The woman asked his name and Kushour replied "Dudu" – a common Israeli name. "Since I was a kid everyone calls me Dudu – even my wife calls me Dudu. It's a nickname." At no point, he says, did the woman – who gave her name as Maya – ask if he was Jewish, although he has acknowledged that he said he was single.

    The pair went to a small roof area in a nearby office block. "When we were having sex, she was worried that someone would see us, but she never told me to stop. She was more than willing – she initiated it."

    It has been suggested that Kushour presented himself as a bachelor interested in a long-term relationship. If that had been Maya's concern, Kushour points out, she might have asked him more about his background. After the brief encounter, Kushour tapped Maya's mobile number into his phone and left. "I didn't treat her like garbage – this is what she wanted."

    Unknown to him, Maya contacted the police after the encounter to lodge a complaint. Kushour says he doesn't know how or when she realised he was not Jewish. The woman was given a medical examination, presented in court, which showed, according to Kushour, no signs of force or injury.

    Six weeks later Kushour was idly flicking through numbers in his mobile's address book. "I saw 'Maya' and I thought 'who is Maya?' I had already forgotten about her. I rang the number to see who it was, and then I realised it was the girl. I said 'Can I see you?' and we arranged to meet."

    Maya didn't show up and didn't respond to Kushour's calls and texts. But, crucially, she now had a vital piece of information for the pursuit of her complaint – his contact details.

    Three days later Kushour received a phone call from the police. "They told me I had a problem and to come to the police station." He was interrogated for five to six hours, without a lawyer.

    In the final hour of questioning, the police began to mention a rape claim. Eventually Kushour was handcuffed and taken to a cell. Over three days the questioning continued. "This was the hardest moment of my entire life," says Kushour. "I didn't have a clue what they were going to do." On the third day, Kushour was taken to court – by this time represented by a lawyer found by his brother – and charged with rape. He spent the next two months in prison and since then has been electronically tagged and confined to his home. The case came to court last week. His lawyer has told him that, because of the publicity surrounding the case, the appeal may be expedited. In the meantime, says Kushour, "I can't leave the house, I can't work, I can't feed my children."

    Kushour's conviction has transfixed Israel. Some see echoes of a primeval – and racist – instinct to protect "our" women against outside marauders. Others are outraged at what they see as a blatant injustice, pointing to a backdrop of widespread, systematic and – some say – growing discrimination against Arabs who make up 20% of Israel's population.

    "This is a most amazing decision by the court," says Tamar Hermann of the Israel Democracy Institute. "Deception is one thing – but to be convicted of rape?" It has, she says, "struck a sensitive chord in the Israeli mainstream of Arabs pretending to be Jews."

    The issue of identity is paramount in a land where both communities regard each other with suspicion and hostility.

    Yuval Yonay, a sociology professor at Haifa University, in one of Israel's few mixed cities, says Kushour's behaviour "might be improper but it is not rape".

    He says that in 16 years of teaching at a university where 20-25% of the student population is Arab, he has "never even heard of a mixed relationship". Discrimination against Arabs is, he says, evident at all levels.

    Some have defended the verdict. "We all have different characteristics, and it is a person's right to have sexual relations with a person knowing the facts about those characteristics," Dana Pugach of the Noga Centre for Victims of Crime told the Israeli daily Haaretz.

    Kushour says he has had a lot of support over the past week from Israeli Jews. "The problem is not with the people themselves, but those in power," he says. "I just want justice."

    Whatever the outcome of his appeal, his brief encounter with Maya has turned his life upside down. His relationship with his wife has been severely tested. "I asked her last night to forgive me. She said yes, but I can see the pain and hurt in her eyes."

    • This article was corrected on Sunday 25 July 2010. We referred to Saber Kushour as an Arab Israeli but Kushour is Palestinian. This has been corrected.
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    A large story in Haaretz came out over the weekend about this case. Apparently the testimony of the female complainant has been under a court imposed gag order and was just made public. Basically, this guy (Kashur) was originally arrested on charges of forcible rape (apparently he picked this girl up, took her to a building he claimed was his office, and then forcibly raped her in the stairwell, leaving her naked and bleeding). The woman, however, has a history of sexual abuse by her father, and the prosecution didn't feel that she would be able to hold it together on the stand under defense-cross, so they offered to plea Kashur out for the lesser charge of rape by deception. The defense agreed to the plea, but then the media got hold of the story at sentencing, and all of a sudden the story is about Israel's racist judicial system, and the prosecutors couldn't do anything cause they already had a signed plea bargain, and the complainants original testimony was under gag.

    ...Which just goes to show you once again how making assumptions makes an ass out of u and me.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    rape by deception??? what an asinine charge.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • yosi wrote:
    A large story in Haaretz came out over the weekend about this case. Apparently the testimony of the female complainant has been under a court imposed gag order and was just made public. Basically, this guy (Kashur) was originally arrested on charges of forcible rape (apparently he picked this girl up, took her to a building he claimed was his office, and then forcibly raped her in the stairwell, leaving her naked and bleeding). The woman, however, has a history of sexual abuse by her father, and the prosecution didn't feel that she would be able to hold it together on the stand under defense-cross, so they offered to plea Kashur out for the lesser charge of rape by deception. The defense agreed to the plea, but then the media got hold of the story at sentencing, and all of a sudden the story is about Israel's racist judicial system, and the prosecutors couldn't do anything cause they already had a signed plea bargain, and the complainants original testimony was under gag.

    ...Which just goes to show you once again how making assumptions makes an ass out of u and me.
    do you have a link to your story?

    i just want to see if you deliberately left out the part where, according to Deputy Prosecutor Danny Wittman, the woman had made numerous allegations of sexual assault in the past, with some resulting in confessions and convictions and others not.

    i wonder if they were worried this allegation of rape may again, not result in a conviciton? Wittman also said, they wanted to keep the case from going to trial where she’d be forced to relive "another" traumatic experience.

    considering she had made numerous allegations of sexual assualt in the past, i wonder why they decided one more would be 'too traumatic"?
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    I don't, I read the article in the print version, but clearly you've seen an article on the story on your own. The point is that this guy wasn't convicted because of some sort of racist sentiment. He was facing a full on rape charge and agreed to plea to a lesser offense.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    if she was fine with consensual sex with a jew, later to press charges once it was found out he was arab...that's pretty fucked up.




    and a justice system that backs up that mentality....racist..bottom line.
  • TriumphantAngelTriumphantAngel Posts: 1,760
    edited September 2010
    yosi wrote:
    I don't, I read the article in the print version, but clearly you've seen an article on the story on your own. The point is that this guy wasn't convicted because of some sort of racist sentiment. He was facing a full on rape charge and agreed to plea to a lesser offense.

    from the initial media release...

    "If she hadn’t thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated," the judges said in their ruling.

    as for racist sentiment Yosi, there's plenty of proof of that already. Jews are legally forbidden to intermarry in Israel. Israel, has obstructed intermarriage between its Jewish and Arab citizens by refusing to recognise such marriages unless they are performed abroad.

    why's that again?
    Post edited by TriumphantAngel on
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    yosi wrote:
    I don't, I read the article in the print version, but clearly you've seen an article on the story on your own. The point is that this guy wasn't convicted because of some sort of racist sentiment. He was facing a full on rape charge and agreed to plea to a lesser offense.

    from the initial media release...
    "If she hadn’t thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated," the judges said in their ruling.

    as for racist sentiment Yosi, there's plenty of proof of that already. Jews are legally forbidden to intermarry in Israel. Israel, has obstructed intermarriage between its Jewish and Arab citizens by refusing to recognise such marriages unless they are performed abroad.

    why's that again?
    fucking elitism.


    like why do people sometimes have to convert to judaism before they can marry a jew?


    its like they aren't good enough unless they are jewish too.
    '

    religion is so stupid. talking about things that happened (maybe) 2ooo years ago like it has some relevance on your life today.

    "we were persecuted"

    no actually you weren't. you were off on your iphone updating your pointless twitter account, THEY were persecuted.
  • yosiyosi NYC Posts: 3,069
    Dude, what are you even responding to?!
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

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