Death of a person - plain and simple. Every death leaves pain for those close to the person and unanswered questions of some kind. A celebrity death is no more tragic or disasterous than any other, in fact often less so.
Try telling the parents of the little three year old girl who died close to here two weeks ago when she ran behind a reversing car that there was anything particulary special or tragic about Michael Jackson's death.
No matter the circumstances of his life, Michael Jackson made choices - many of them poor. He surrounded himself with people who told him what he wanted to hear and they did what he wanted them to do. Were they irresponsible? Probably, were they negligent? Probably. But he had the power to change things but he chose not to.
He was talented, he was tortured, he may have had a terrible upbringing. But he was also rich, powerful and the master of his destiny. Compare his life to a homeless peson living on the streets of any city - the same homeless some call bums or are disgusted by, the same ones no-one stops to help and few care about. They all have a sad story too, but I don't hear anyone morning them a year after their death.
I find it hard to feel sorry for people like Jackson, Cobain, Anna-Nicole Smith, etc etc etc when they all had the power to change their circumstances but instead chose the life they ultimately lost.
I find this post extremely condescending and rather naive. I didnt follow Anna Nicole, or her career so I cant speak on her, but with MJ and Cobain, I was a fan of both and both deaths hit me hard.
The notion you have that when you are rich and famous that you can change everything and crawl out of your depression or your despair, is pretty outrageous frankly. Cobain especially. The guy was as tortured as any modern day artist. He was merely 27 when he died. I am 26 myself, I still havent figured out my life's plan, and being a millionaire would be great, but fame and cash aint gonna solve my problems. Kurt sold millions of records, and was thought of as a spokesman for his generation. Cant really top those accolades. But how does that help him deal with his anger and sadness? Help him deal with quitting heroin? End his stomach pain? Help him deal with the most traumatic event of his entire life, his parents divorce? Just because you have wealth and fame doesnt mean you are more equipped to deal with the world and your emotions than the rest of us!
Same with MJ.
Its a misguided notion you are promoting and its one alot of people swallow whole. The idea that fame and money can make you whole again, if you are lost or depressed or worse. If we could talk to MJ or Kurt I would bet theyd argue in many ways it wasnt worth it. That fame isnt worth the price.
The power to change things? Thats a pretty condescending thing to be suggesting. So if you are rich and powerful, you should be free of pain and misery? How is a 27 year old supposed to know how to deal with and cope with both his own demons and the pressure and burden of being the spokesman for millions of OTHER peoples demons!? I dont even have My OWN life figured out right now!
You dont find it more than a coincidence that some of the biggest celebs of our time, Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, Britney and the like all have made pretty spectacular mistakes, and none of them I would wager is happy. Theres a reason for that.
Don't get me wrong. I was not being unfairly critical of these people - more of the 'newsworthiness' of it and the elevation of their lives to 'news' when the same shit happens to millions of people on a daily basis.
At the age of 41 I've been to hell and back a number of times. Been suicidal, attempted suicide and failed, been reckless with my life, survived situations I probably should have died. If i'd been famous I'd have created many a front page headline in my 20s.
Cobain's death came at a time when I was also deeply depressed and in a very dark place and felt there was no way out. I was sad of days after his death and really feared Eddie would be next. I kept thining of his daughter and how it must eventually affect her. But he was not the spokesman of a generation, that was a crappy tag the media place upon him - infairly. It was the lyrics of PJ that turned my life around - specifically 'rearviewmirror'.
I don't want to dwell on the circumstances of Combain and Michael Jackson per se, they are tragedies, but they are also media fodder and get turned into something far larger than they are. I feel sympathy to these people and their families but no more and no less than others who live alongside me. These people had their issues but they were no larger than those every other human being faces in living in this world. Are they more important than the impoverished family of four who have just lost their shit hole of a house becasue dad list his job or is an alcoholic? I say no.
Was Kurt's suicide more tragic than the four friends I lost to suicide between the 80s and now? No, they were equally as sad, all 5 of them felt their problems were bigger than they could overcome and they chose to exit rather than keep on fighting. I don't critisize them for this choice, just wished they'd made a different choice. To be in that hole is terrible and uless you';ve been there, people should not slag people who complete suicides.
But as I was trying to say, life is about choices and all of these people did have more means at their disposal to make better choices and see them through if they were committed to them. Everyone has a story and I've worked with kids who have had far more fucked up lives that MJ could every have dreamed, I just don't feel that someone celebrity should make their story any more important than an unknown. How do you tell a heroin addict 13 year old girl who was raped by mom's boyfriend, and then mom testified against her daughter in court (even though she knew the daughter was tellingthe truth because she caght the rape in the act), and threw her daughter out on the streets for 'trying to steal my boyfriend' that life is worth living? That is a real story and a kid I encountered when i was working in students services in a 'rough' school. She'd now dead (suicide) and her sister (also abused and thown out) is alive and doing well. They made different choices and had different strengths and motivations. But none the less, their story was more newsworthy yet this is probably the first time it has been told outside of the offices in which I worked.
I'd expect celebs to make mistakes, do drugs, have problems - the same as you and I - I just don't expect our so called media or 'reality tv' to be splashing their fuck ups all over the media - it is not newsworthy nor in the public interest.
I think you are missing the point that we, most of us here see nothing innocent about him sleeping in a bed with a child. He didn't have to touch them at ALL for that to be just a bit fucked up.
So the fact remains to most of us, that criminal or not, it was a fucked up thing to do, and most of us, are not cool with that at ALL.
If I remember right, you are mid 20's ? Would you yourself want to sleep in the same bed slumber party style with a 10 year old? I'm betting the answer is no. Why? Because you know it's fucked up.
MJ had no problem with it, so in my mind that makes him a bit fucked up.
well said
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
ta stop the whole jokester act and just kind of deal with facts, with the evidence as presented.[/quote]
I'm glad you're so forgiving, but if my daughter went for a sleepover or a camp or whatever and i found out she'd slept the night in an adult's bed, where that adult may have been naked and the adult admitted to 'cuddling and caressing' then that adult had better hope they are a faster runner than me because they'd be a dead man when I caught them.
This alone is unacceptable behaviour for an adult in the duty of care of a child. and no - i'm not calling him a rapist - just totally inappropriate.[/quote]
Dont really understand the point of this post. MJ didnt take kids into bed to cuddle and caress or to be naked. The 4 kids I mentioned above all said as much.
Thats the whole road block of the issue. Of course, adults do horrible things to kids. No question. But theirs many problems with the leap from innocent day at Neverland, to abuse. For one, the family was always invited. Not one family member of either boy, the first or second accusers family, ever said they saw Michael do anything inappropriate. Pretty odd to me. These boys were basically living at neverland with their parents. The second boys family knew the guards and security by first name, they were there so much. So that to me is odd.
I deal in facts not hearsay. That seems to be several peoples brand of jabber here. I live in a world, where if someone is guilty, they are guilty, if they are innocent, well then they are innocent. Had their been evidence MJ was abusing kids, no way would I be supportive of that. But you gotta deal in facts.
MJ lived one life. He acted in certain ways. Did certain things. He never abused kids. But when people start mudding the waters and all that, saying "oh I wouldnt let a 45 year old sleep in the same bed with my kid", it as I said muddies the water. MJ was odd. Wierd. maybe he shouldnt have slept in those beds with kids. But nothing bad happened.[/quote]
no he should not have slept in bed with kids. He did it to himself. He paid alot of money to the family of a boy. Why would you pay millions of dollars if you didn't do anything? I sure wouldn't pay a damn thing if I didn't do anything. The guy did it to himself. He put himself in situations that got him in trouble.[/quote]
You ever read anything about the 2 cases? Cause it was a hell of alot more than just wierdo MJ doing odd things that led to his demise! Both families of Both accusers have shall we say interesting histories as well. The mom of accuser number 2, sued walmart and said she was sexual abused by the security guards. she demanded money. but it was later found out it was a lie. She had lied. To gain money. Your kid befriends MJ, or MJ befriends your kid, you stand to gain some serious cash if you play your cards right. Accuser 1, admitted not to his dad one night crying, upset. but the "confession" came after his dad a dentist, demanded his son use "truth serum" and tell him what really happened.
I agree. Look away from the real issue. Look far far away. The most cruel thing of all I think is the fact MJ deeply loved kids. And to have his latter years ripped apart by lies, supposedly uttered by kids. That as I said, was a contributing factor to his dying at 50.
No one talks about the kids or the parents of the accusers. What should be done to punish those who told such vicious lies that drove a man to his death? Whats the punishment for that? For the DA Tom Sneddon who took it upon himself to engage in a witchhunt. Or the press who were relentless in their coverage of "rumors". Who should pay? And how? And for how long?
its an important issue. people should feel free to confess acts or crimes perpetrated upon them. thats important. if you are abused by your dad you have the right to tell someone about it. but if you say accuse a teacher of abuse or something, accuse the teacher or rape, and it is found out you lied, and nothing wrong happened, I think you deserve to be punished, just as the abuser would be punished if it was the truth.
And thats yet another issue I have with the justice system. The laws on the books for saying someone raped you, when they didnt, saying someone abused you when they did not, that is an issue that needs to be clarified and looked into.
Because lets face it, when you are on trial for something like that, even if you are aquited your life is over. There will always be people who say "gee did he do that?". And that is unbelieveably damaging. And its harmful.
I have no love or sympathy for people who abuse kids, or people who abuse anyone reguardless of age. But just as upsetting to me, equally upsetting are those who outright make up things, for fame, for money, for attention, for whatever reason, and end up ruining the lives of so many people.
ta stop the whole jokester act and just kind of deal with facts, with the evidence as presented.
I'm glad you're so forgiving, but if my daughter went for a sleepover or a camp or whatever and i found out she'd slept the night in an adult's bed, where that adult may have been naked and the adult admitted to 'cuddling and caressing' then that adult had better hope they are a faster runner than me because they'd be a dead man when I caught them.
This alone is unacceptable behaviour for an adult in the duty of care of a child. and no - i'm not calling him a rapist - just totally inappropriate.[/quote]
Dont really understand the point of this post. MJ didnt take kids into bed to cuddle and caress or to be naked. The 4 kids I mentioned above all said as much.
Thats the whole road block of the issue. Of course, adults do horrible things to kids. No question. But theirs many problems with the leap from innocent day at Neverland, to abuse. For one, the family was always invited. Not one family member of either boy, the first or second accusers family, ever said they saw Michael do anything inappropriate. Pretty odd to me. These boys were basically living at neverland with their parents. The second boys family knew the guards and security by first name, they were there so much. So that to me is odd.
I deal in facts not hearsay. That seems to be several peoples brand of jabber here. I live in a world, where if someone is guilty, they are guilty, if they are innocent, well then they are innocent. Had their been evidence MJ was abusing kids, no way would I be supportive of that. But you gotta deal in facts.
MJ lived one life. He acted in certain ways. Did certain things. He never abused kids. But when people start mudding the waters and all that, saying "oh I wouldnt let a 45 year old sleep in the same bed with my kid", it as I said muddies the water. MJ was odd. Wierd. maybe he shouldnt have slept in those beds with kids. But nothing bad happened.[/quote]
no he should not have slept in bed with kids. He did it to himself. He paid alot of money to the family of a boy. Why would you pay millions of dollars if you didn't do anything? I sure wouldn't pay a damn thing if I didn't do anything. The guy did it to himself. He put himself in situations that got him in trouble.[/quote]
You ever read anything about the 2 cases? Cause it was a hell of alot more than just wierdo MJ doing odd things that led to his demise! Both families of Both accusers have shall we say interesting histories as well. The mom of accuser number 2, sued walmart and said she was sexual abused by the security guards. she demanded money. but it was later found out it was a lie. She had lied. To gain money. Your kid befriends MJ, or MJ befriends your kid, you stand to gain some serious cash if you play your cards right. Accuser 1, admitted not to his dad one night crying, upset. but the "confession" came after his dad a dentist, demanded his son use "truth serum" and tell him what really happened.
I agree. Look away from the real issue. Look far far away. The most cruel thing of all I think is the fact MJ deeply loved kids. And to have his latter years ripped apart by lies, supposedly uttered by kids. That as I said, was a contributing factor to his dying at 50.
No one talks about the kids or the parents of the accusers. What should be done to punish those who told such vicious lies that drove a man to his death? Whats the punishment for that? For the DA Tom Sneddon who took it upon himself to engage in a witchhunt. Or the press who were relentless in their coverage of "rumors". Who should pay? And how? And for how long?[/quote]
why should people pay for MJ's death? From that interview a few years ago "sharing bed" interview. He looked like he was having fun. He was still sharing his bed with kids. He didn't learn his lesson the first time. Seems like he was addicted to sleeping in the bed with kids. MJ killed MJ.
Or the press who were relentless in their coverage of "rumors". Who should pay? And how? And for how long?
Finally I find something you have written I can agree with. The 24 hour news networks who need something to broadcast - even if it is shit, lies or rumor. Add to this the rubbish that is served up on TV = especially reality tv and you have a massive dumbing down of pop culture and the elevation of celebrity.
Look into my eyes, what do you see?
Cult of Personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I've been everything you want to be
I'm the Cult of Personality
Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I'm the Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Neon lights, A Nobel Price
The mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You don't have to follow me
Only you can set me free
I sell the things you need to be
I'm the smiling face on your T.V.
I'm the Cult of Personality
I exploit you still you love me
I tell you one and one makes three
I'm the Cult of Personality
Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi
I'm the Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Neon lights a Nobel Prize
A leader speaks, that leader dies
You don't have to follow me
Only you can set you free
You gave me fortune
You gave me fame
You me power in your God's name
I'm every person you need to be
I'm the Cult of Personality
i know plenty of artistic people, me being one myself.
artsy folks are screwy in the head.
yes, i am a disaster.
i've always painted or wrote poetry at an alarming pace.
i feel the energy, it is all consuming and obsessive.
add being famous and money and you have a cluster fuck. (btw, i am broke as a joke)
some people cannot handle fame and money.
mike jackson was one of them who couldn't handle it.
estatic eccentric ppl are hilarious.
mike jackson is far from hilarious.
the guy had major unacceptable bullshit behavioral issues with children.
and why not women?
what man in their right mind sleeps with children when there are women or men everywhere?
odd.
Funny this thread is on a Pearl Jam forum because I think Pearl Jam have dealt with fame and fortune better than most. They never fed the monster and so the monster never turned on the hand that fed it.
Funny this thread is on a Pearl Jam forum because I think Pearl Jam have dealt with fame and fortune better than most. They never fed the monster and so the monster never turned on the hand that fed it.
Funny this thread is on a Pearl Jam forum because I think Pearl Jam have dealt with fame and fortune better than most. They never fed the monster and so the monster never turned on the hand that fed it.
wise words.
yeah, but you talk to ed or mike and ask them how fame or money and all that has effected them. Ed has said many times he was headed down the same road as kurt, and mike has his demons as well. Ed's take on it, seems to be, almost, that at the time, it could have gone either way, kurt dead or ed dead. and kurt died and it freaked
That said, i get your point, that PJ have been anti commercial, or were anti commercial pre Avocado days, but that said, its not simplistic like your post suggests.
Same with people like Uncle Neil or Dylan, or whoever you want to point to as the quintessential "i will do what the hell I want, and to hell with you all" artist. Both Dylan and Uncle Neil battled some stuff as well.
I agree the anti commercial route is better but even those who follow that path have trouble
They werent paying the fame monster from the word go, but it still nearly destroyed the band, and nearly destroyed the human beings that make up the band.
like the death penalty thread in MT.
if found guilty when he was alive, should Mike have received a death sentence or just life in prison?
wait...
i forgot...
in many cases a child molester is set free sooner than many drug offenders.
that is quality justice right there.
deal pot and get caught = could be doing more time than a pedophile, depending on the state anyway.
irrelevant. he wasnt found guilty. he was found innocent, and the evidence proves as such. Who knows what would have happened? What would have happened if the sky was green? Or the grass was purple? Who the hell cares?
I reiterate. The accusers, both, lied, willingly to destroy MJ, or were put up to it by their parents. MJ isnt alive. The parents of the kids, or the father of one accuser is and the mom of both are still alive. What should be done to those who lie, in court, under oath, and sling outrageous and beyond hurtful accusations at people, that have far reaching consequences?
You people need to stop the acid intake, if you dont think people who lie and say "he did this to me" knowing that he did no such thing, should be punished, jailed, or given the scarlet letter or some such punishment. Lying like that ruins peoples lives.
MJ wasnt found guilty. To think of a penalty for NOT commiting a crime is an exercise only an imbecile would undertake. Whats Ruben Carters penalty for NOT killing white people?
yeah, but you talk to ed or mike and ask them how fame or money and all that has effected them. Ed has said many times he was headed down the same road as kurt, and mike has his demons as well. Ed's take on it, seems to be, almost, that at the time, it could have gone either way, kurt dead or ed dead. and kurt died and it freaked
That said, i get your point, that PJ have been anti commercial, or were anti commercial pre Avocado days, but that said, its not simplistic like your post suggests.
Same with people like Uncle Neil or Dylan, or whoever you want to point to as the quintessential "i will do what the hell I want, and to hell with you all" artist. Both Dylan and Uncle Neil battled some stuff as well.
I agree the anti commercial route is better but even those who follow that path have trouble
They werent paying the fame monster from the word go, but it still nearly destroyed the band, and nearly destroyed the human beings that make up the band.
neil, dylan, and the men of pj do not sleep in the same bed as children.
ed enjoys women.
neil enjoys women.
dylan enjoys women and weed.
see what we're sayin?
write music, get hammered, become wealthy beyond your wildest dreams, build empires that touch the sky but dont sleep with children... pretty fuckin easy to understand.
i bet you neil would beat a child predator with his guitar.
if not, give me the guitar and i'll do it.
like the death penalty thread in MT.
if found guilty when he was alive, should Mike have received a death sentence or just life in prison?
wait...
i forgot...
in many cases a child molester is set free sooner than many drug offenders.
that is quality justice right there.
deal pot and get caught = could be doing more time than a pedophile, depending on the state anyway.
irrelevant. he wasnt found guilty. he was found innocent, and the evidence proves as such. Who knows what would have happened? What would have happened if the sky was green? Or the grass was purple? Who the hell cares?
I reiterate. The accusers, both, lied, willingly to destroy MJ, or were put up to it by their parents. MJ isnt alive. The parents of the kids, or the father of one accuser is and the mom of both are still alive. What should be done to those who lie, in court, under oath, and sling outrageous and beyond hurtful accusations at people, that have far reaching consequences?
You people need to stop the acid intake, if you dont think people who lie and say "he did this to me" knowing that he did no such thing, should be punished, jailed, or given the scarlet letter or some such punishment. Lying like that ruins peoples lives.
MJ wasnt found guilty. To think of a penalty for NOT commiting a crime is an exercise only an imbecile would undertake. Whats Ruben Carters penalty for NOT killing white people?
I also think the whole notion that good people have good lives, and those who live wierdly or oddly only invite destruction and chaos and tragedy. thats absurd. Good people have bad lives. bad people have good lives. And vice versa. Feeding the fame monster has nothing to do with it.
MJ's supposed crime of feeding the fame monster, has no relation to 2 kids, or 2 kids parents lying and saying he did stuff to their children. His odd behavior makes it easier for the whole unthinking majority of folks to swallow the lies. As I said, MJ as an upstanding citizen, as a model citizen, someone who was still "black", someone who lived a "normal" life, wouldnt have met the same fate as this MJ did, the one that did exist. And thats sad. Its a result of many things. One of which is this insane idea that monsters arent real, we are told as we grow. But the real monsters of rapists, molestors, murderers, theives, cheats, swindlers, robbers, all do. And they dont look like normal people do they? No they are hideous. They wear scary masks. They look disfigured. They are insane and unstable. They are off their rocker.
But John and Suzy, the wealthy, happy, couple with the 3 kids, and the beautiful house, the picket fence, the minivan, the great jobs. The vacations in Palm Springs. No those people couldnt be abusers, or rapists or killers or any such deviants. They dont LOOK like that.
mj is full of shit.
even right now.
dig up his box and you'll find shit.
btw, i like how you never answered several direct easy questions.
1. would you have allowed mike jackson to sleep in your childs bed?
2. why keep sleeping with children even after being accused of being a child predator?
I also think the whole notion that good people have good lives, and those who live wierdly or oddly only invite destruction and chaos and tragedy. thats absurd. Good people have bad lives. bad people have good lives. And vice versa. Feeding the fame monster has nothing to do with it.
MJ's supposed crime of feeding the fame monster, has no relation to 2 kids, or 2 kids parents lying and saying he did stuff to their children. His odd behavior makes it easier for the whole unthinking majority of folks to swallow the lies. As I said, MJ as an upstanding citizen, as a model citizen, someone who was still "black", someone who lived a "normal" life, wouldnt have met the same fate as this MJ did, the one that did exist. And thats sad. Its a result of many things. One of which is this insane idea that monsters arent real, we are told as we grow. But the real monsters of rapists, molestors, murderers, theives, cheats, swindlers, robbers, all do. And they dont look like normal people do they? No they are hideous. They wear scary masks. They look disfigured. They are insane and unstable. They are off their rocker.
But John and Suzy, the wealthy, happy, couple with the 3 kids, and the beautiful house, the picket fence, the minivan, the great jobs. The vacations in Palm Springs. No those people couldnt be abusers, or rapists or killers or any such deviants. They dont LOOK like that.
that is insane.
you actually believe we are that naive?
evil takes many forms.
jon and suzy are bullshit.
yeah, but you talk to ed or mike and ask them how fame or money and all that has effected them. Ed has said many times he was headed down the same road as kurt, and mike has his demons as well. Ed's take on it, seems to be, almost, that at the time, it could have gone either way, kurt dead or ed dead. and kurt died and it freaked
That said, i get your point, that PJ have been anti commercial, or were anti commercial pre Avocado days, but that said, its not simplistic like your post suggests.
Same with people like Uncle Neil or Dylan, or whoever you want to point to as the quintessential "i will do what the hell I want, and to hell with you all" artist. Both Dylan and Uncle Neil battled some stuff as well.
I agree the anti commercial route is better but even those who follow that path have trouble
They werent paying the fame monster from the word go, but it still nearly destroyed the band, and nearly destroyed the human beings that make up the band.
neil, dylan, and the men of pj do not sleep in the same bed as children.
ed enjoys women.
neil enjoys women.
dylan enjoys women and weed.
see what we're sayin?
write music, get hammered, become wealthy beyond your wildest dreams, build empires that touch the sky but dont sleep with children... pretty fuckin easy to understand.
i bet you neil would beat a child predator with his guitar.
if not, give me the guitar and i'll do it.
Someone said they didnt pay the fame monster so things turned out alright. thats what I am responding to. Neil has had a hard life. His kids have cerebal palsy. He himself has epilepsy. Neil battled drugs for years, remember the cocaine visible during The last Waltz. Neil himself almost died a few years back. Not paying the fame monster has been a great choice for him no doubt but, its not like poof all his life is perfect.
Dylan, same thing. Does whatever he wants. But he battled drugs for years. And there are often stories of him dealing with the public or his bandmates even in ways that make me cringe. One band member in a 2001 RS article said it was verboten to even look or talk to Dylan.
MJ;s troubles didnt materialize because of the sleepovers. They materialized because 2 crazed and parent influenced kids, told lies and the public bought it.
Whats the punishment for serial sleepovers, where no abuse occurs? Oh yeah officer, he sleeps in the same bed as little kids, but we can prove he never did anything untoward, so yeah, arrest him, jail him for,... for... for... sleeping in bed with kids? WHats the sentence for that folks?
yeah, but you talk to ed or mike and ask them how fame or money and all that has effected them. Ed has said many times he was headed down the same road as kurt, and mike has his demons as well. Ed's take on it, seems to be, almost, that at the time, it could have gone either way, kurt dead or ed dead. and kurt died and it freaked
That said, i get your point, that PJ have been anti commercial, or were anti commercial pre Avocado days, but that said, its not simplistic like your post suggests.
Same with people like Uncle Neil or Dylan, or whoever you want to point to as the quintessential "i will do what the hell I want, and to hell with you all" artist. Both Dylan and Uncle Neil battled some stuff as well.
I agree the anti commercial route is better but even those who follow that path have trouble
They werent paying the fame monster from the word go, but it still nearly destroyed the band, and nearly destroyed the human beings that make up the band.
neil, dylan, and the men of pj do not sleep in the same bed as children.
ed enjoys women.
neil enjoys women.
dylan enjoys women and weed.
see what we're sayin?
write music, get hammered, become wealthy beyond your wildest dreams, build empires that touch the sky but dont sleep with children... pretty fuckin easy to understand.
i bet you neil would beat a child predator with his guitar.
if not, give me the guitar and i'll do it.
I also think the whole notion that good people have good lives, and those who live wierdly or oddly only invite destruction and chaos and tragedy. thats absurd. Good people have bad lives. bad people have good lives. And vice versa. Feeding the fame monster has nothing to do with it.
MJ's supposed crime of feeding the fame monster, has no relation to 2 kids, or 2 kids parents lying and saying he did stuff to their children. His odd behavior makes it easier for the whole unthinking majority of folks to swallow the lies. As I said, MJ as an upstanding citizen, as a model citizen, someone who was still "black", someone who lived a "normal" life, wouldnt have met the same fate as this MJ did, the one that did exist. And thats sad. Its a result of many things. One of which is this insane idea that monsters arent real, we are told as we grow. But the real monsters of rapists, molestors, murderers, theives, cheats, swindlers, robbers, all do. And they dont look like normal people do they? No they are hideous. They wear scary masks. They look disfigured. They are insane and unstable. They are off their rocker.
But John and Suzy, the wealthy, happy, couple with the 3 kids, and the beautiful house, the picket fence, the minivan, the great jobs. The vacations in Palm Springs. No those people couldnt be abusers, or rapists or killers or any such deviants. They dont LOOK like that.
that is insane.
you actually believe we are that naive?
evil takes many forms.
jon and suzy are bullshit.
You overestimate the intelligence of status quo america my friend. Whats the basis of every horror film? A normal couple, jon and suzy who are killers right? No, its Freddy Kreugar, or its an inbred family from Texas who wear human skin as masks, or its 2 face from batman. And I love comics and horror flicks. But lets call the truth the truth. And the truth is, the world, or america, views deviants as criminals. You remember the Elephant man? That was over a hundred years ago but tell me that guy wouldnt have gotten the same reaction in 2010 as well?
You overestimate the intelligence of status quo america my friend. Whats the basis of every horror film? A normal couple, jon and suzy who are killers right? No, its Freddy Kreugar, or its an inbred family from Texas who wear human skin as masks, or its 2 face from batman. And I love comics and horror flicks. But lets call the truth the truth. And the truth is, the world, or america, views deviants as criminals. You remember the Elephant man? That was over a hundred years ago but tell me that guy wouldnt have gotten the same reaction in 2010 as well?
i have no idea i dont watch tv. i rarely see a movie.
my father was a prison guard for 30 years though.
i am pretty sure i know something about bullshit.
mj is bullshit.
btw, it's freddy krueger
oddly enough, same as my last name.
I also think the whole notion that good people have good lives, and those who live wierdly or oddly only invite destruction and chaos and tragedy. thats absurd. Good people have bad lives. bad people have good lives. And vice versa. Feeding the fame monster has nothing to do with it.
MJ's supposed crime of feeding the fame monster, has no relation to 2 kids, or 2 kids parents lying and saying he did stuff to their children. His odd behavior makes it easier for the whole unthinking majority of folks to swallow the lies. As I said, MJ as an upstanding citizen, as a model citizen, someone who was still "black", someone who lived a "normal" life, wouldnt have met the same fate as this MJ did, the one that did exist. And thats sad. Its a result of many things. One of which is this insane idea that monsters arent real, we are told as we grow. But the real monsters of rapists, molestors, murderers, theives, cheats, swindlers, robbers, all do. And they dont look like normal people do they? No they are hideous. They wear scary masks. They look disfigured. They are insane and unstable. They are off their rocker.
But John and Suzy, the wealthy, happy, couple with the 3 kids, and the beautiful house, the picket fence, the minivan, the great jobs. The vacations in Palm Springs. No those people couldnt be abusers, or rapists or killers or any such deviants. They dont LOOK like that.
When I was teaching high school there was no way I'd put myself in a situation where I could be accused of anything like this. This meant I took precautions: No being alone in a closed room or office with a student. If the room didn't have a window with witnesses outside then there was always another teacher in that room with me - no matter how innocent the interaction. No driving students alone in a car. No having students over to my house. No tender touching (this included hugging a distressed student - you invited one of their friends to do it). No going to parties thrown by students. No sharing phone numbers or facebook contacts with students.... you get my drift. It sucks you have to do some of this but this is the world we live in. Other things are what you'd call a professional boundary and quite acceptable and propper.
MJ should have known (and he would have been told) you do not have kids in your bed and you do not put yourself in a situation where these accusations can be made. The police and the prosecuter were doing their jobs, calling it a witchhunt is unfair. Trial by media, well that is another thing entirely and something he was a victim off - no doubt.
Sure he was a target for extortion - but let's be honest, he was an easy target because he made himself an easy target. If he'd used his brain it would never have happened - fair or not.
You overestimate the intelligence of status quo america my friend. Whats the basis of every horror film? A normal couple, jon and suzy who are killers right? No, its Freddy Kreugar, or its an inbred family from Texas who wear human skin as masks, or its 2 face from batman. And I love comics and horror flicks. But lets call the truth the truth. And the truth is, the world, or america, views deviants as criminals. You remember the Elephant man? That was over a hundred years ago but tell me that guy wouldnt have gotten the same reaction in 2010 as well?
i have no idea i dont watch tv. i rarely see a movie.
my father was a prison guard for 30 years though.
i am pretty sure i know something about bullshit.
mj is bullshit.
btw, it's freddy krueger
oddly enough, same as my last name.
Comments
Don't get me wrong. I was not being unfairly critical of these people - more of the 'newsworthiness' of it and the elevation of their lives to 'news' when the same shit happens to millions of people on a daily basis.
At the age of 41 I've been to hell and back a number of times. Been suicidal, attempted suicide and failed, been reckless with my life, survived situations I probably should have died. If i'd been famous I'd have created many a front page headline in my 20s.
Cobain's death came at a time when I was also deeply depressed and in a very dark place and felt there was no way out. I was sad of days after his death and really feared Eddie would be next. I kept thining of his daughter and how it must eventually affect her. But he was not the spokesman of a generation, that was a crappy tag the media place upon him - infairly. It was the lyrics of PJ that turned my life around - specifically 'rearviewmirror'.
I don't want to dwell on the circumstances of Combain and Michael Jackson per se, they are tragedies, but they are also media fodder and get turned into something far larger than they are. I feel sympathy to these people and their families but no more and no less than others who live alongside me. These people had their issues but they were no larger than those every other human being faces in living in this world. Are they more important than the impoverished family of four who have just lost their shit hole of a house becasue dad list his job or is an alcoholic? I say no.
Was Kurt's suicide more tragic than the four friends I lost to suicide between the 80s and now? No, they were equally as sad, all 5 of them felt their problems were bigger than they could overcome and they chose to exit rather than keep on fighting. I don't critisize them for this choice, just wished they'd made a different choice. To be in that hole is terrible and uless you';ve been there, people should not slag people who complete suicides.
But as I was trying to say, life is about choices and all of these people did have more means at their disposal to make better choices and see them through if they were committed to them. Everyone has a story and I've worked with kids who have had far more fucked up lives that MJ could every have dreamed, I just don't feel that someone celebrity should make their story any more important than an unknown. How do you tell a heroin addict 13 year old girl who was raped by mom's boyfriend, and then mom testified against her daughter in court (even though she knew the daughter was tellingthe truth because she caght the rape in the act), and threw her daughter out on the streets for 'trying to steal my boyfriend' that life is worth living? That is a real story and a kid I encountered when i was working in students services in a 'rough' school. She'd now dead (suicide) and her sister (also abused and thown out) is alive and doing well. They made different choices and had different strengths and motivations. But none the less, their story was more newsworthy yet this is probably the first time it has been told outside of the offices in which I worked.
I'd expect celebs to make mistakes, do drugs, have problems - the same as you and I - I just don't expect our so called media or 'reality tv' to be splashing their fuck ups all over the media - it is not newsworthy nor in the public interest.
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
I'm glad you're so forgiving, but if my daughter went for a sleepover or a camp or whatever and i found out she'd slept the night in an adult's bed, where that adult may have been naked and the adult admitted to 'cuddling and caressing' then that adult had better hope they are a faster runner than me because they'd be a dead man when I caught them.
This alone is unacceptable behaviour for an adult in the duty of care of a child. and no - i'm not calling him a rapist - just totally inappropriate.[/quote]
Dont really understand the point of this post. MJ didnt take kids into bed to cuddle and caress or to be naked. The 4 kids I mentioned above all said as much.
Thats the whole road block of the issue. Of course, adults do horrible things to kids. No question. But theirs many problems with the leap from innocent day at Neverland, to abuse. For one, the family was always invited. Not one family member of either boy, the first or second accusers family, ever said they saw Michael do anything inappropriate. Pretty odd to me. These boys were basically living at neverland with their parents. The second boys family knew the guards and security by first name, they were there so much. So that to me is odd.
I deal in facts not hearsay. That seems to be several peoples brand of jabber here. I live in a world, where if someone is guilty, they are guilty, if they are innocent, well then they are innocent. Had their been evidence MJ was abusing kids, no way would I be supportive of that. But you gotta deal in facts.
MJ lived one life. He acted in certain ways. Did certain things. He never abused kids. But when people start mudding the waters and all that, saying "oh I wouldnt let a 45 year old sleep in the same bed with my kid", it as I said muddies the water. MJ was odd. Wierd. maybe he shouldnt have slept in those beds with kids. But nothing bad happened.[/quote]
no he should not have slept in bed with kids. He did it to himself. He paid alot of money to the family of a boy. Why would you pay millions of dollars if you didn't do anything? I sure wouldn't pay a damn thing if I didn't do anything. The guy did it to himself. He put himself in situations that got him in trouble.[/quote]
You ever read anything about the 2 cases? Cause it was a hell of alot more than just wierdo MJ doing odd things that led to his demise! Both families of Both accusers have shall we say interesting histories as well. The mom of accuser number 2, sued walmart and said she was sexual abused by the security guards. she demanded money. but it was later found out it was a lie. She had lied. To gain money. Your kid befriends MJ, or MJ befriends your kid, you stand to gain some serious cash if you play your cards right. Accuser 1, admitted not to his dad one night crying, upset. but the "confession" came after his dad a dentist, demanded his son use "truth serum" and tell him what really happened.
I agree. Look away from the real issue. Look far far away. The most cruel thing of all I think is the fact MJ deeply loved kids. And to have his latter years ripped apart by lies, supposedly uttered by kids. That as I said, was a contributing factor to his dying at 50.
No one talks about the kids or the parents of the accusers. What should be done to punish those who told such vicious lies that drove a man to his death? Whats the punishment for that? For the DA Tom Sneddon who took it upon himself to engage in a witchhunt. Or the press who were relentless in their coverage of "rumors". Who should pay? And how? And for how long?
And thats yet another issue I have with the justice system. The laws on the books for saying someone raped you, when they didnt, saying someone abused you when they did not, that is an issue that needs to be clarified and looked into.
Because lets face it, when you are on trial for something like that, even if you are aquited your life is over. There will always be people who say "gee did he do that?". And that is unbelieveably damaging. And its harmful.
I have no love or sympathy for people who abuse kids, or people who abuse anyone reguardless of age. But just as upsetting to me, equally upsetting are those who outright make up things, for fame, for money, for attention, for whatever reason, and end up ruining the lives of so many people.
I'm glad you're so forgiving, but if my daughter went for a sleepover or a camp or whatever and i found out she'd slept the night in an adult's bed, where that adult may have been naked and the adult admitted to 'cuddling and caressing' then that adult had better hope they are a faster runner than me because they'd be a dead man when I caught them.
This alone is unacceptable behaviour for an adult in the duty of care of a child. and no - i'm not calling him a rapist - just totally inappropriate.[/quote]
Dont really understand the point of this post. MJ didnt take kids into bed to cuddle and caress or to be naked. The 4 kids I mentioned above all said as much.
Thats the whole road block of the issue. Of course, adults do horrible things to kids. No question. But theirs many problems with the leap from innocent day at Neverland, to abuse. For one, the family was always invited. Not one family member of either boy, the first or second accusers family, ever said they saw Michael do anything inappropriate. Pretty odd to me. These boys were basically living at neverland with their parents. The second boys family knew the guards and security by first name, they were there so much. So that to me is odd.
I deal in facts not hearsay. That seems to be several peoples brand of jabber here. I live in a world, where if someone is guilty, they are guilty, if they are innocent, well then they are innocent. Had their been evidence MJ was abusing kids, no way would I be supportive of that. But you gotta deal in facts.
MJ lived one life. He acted in certain ways. Did certain things. He never abused kids. But when people start mudding the waters and all that, saying "oh I wouldnt let a 45 year old sleep in the same bed with my kid", it as I said muddies the water. MJ was odd. Wierd. maybe he shouldnt have slept in those beds with kids. But nothing bad happened.[/quote]
no he should not have slept in bed with kids. He did it to himself. He paid alot of money to the family of a boy. Why would you pay millions of dollars if you didn't do anything? I sure wouldn't pay a damn thing if I didn't do anything. The guy did it to himself. He put himself in situations that got him in trouble.[/quote]
You ever read anything about the 2 cases? Cause it was a hell of alot more than just wierdo MJ doing odd things that led to his demise! Both families of Both accusers have shall we say interesting histories as well. The mom of accuser number 2, sued walmart and said she was sexual abused by the security guards. she demanded money. but it was later found out it was a lie. She had lied. To gain money. Your kid befriends MJ, or MJ befriends your kid, you stand to gain some serious cash if you play your cards right. Accuser 1, admitted not to his dad one night crying, upset. but the "confession" came after his dad a dentist, demanded his son use "truth serum" and tell him what really happened.
I agree. Look away from the real issue. Look far far away. The most cruel thing of all I think is the fact MJ deeply loved kids. And to have his latter years ripped apart by lies, supposedly uttered by kids. That as I said, was a contributing factor to his dying at 50.
No one talks about the kids or the parents of the accusers. What should be done to punish those who told such vicious lies that drove a man to his death? Whats the punishment for that? For the DA Tom Sneddon who took it upon himself to engage in a witchhunt. Or the press who were relentless in their coverage of "rumors". Who should pay? And how? And for how long?[/quote]
why should people pay for MJ's death? From that interview a few years ago "sharing bed" interview. He looked like he was having fun. He was still sharing his bed with kids. He didn't learn his lesson the first time. Seems like he was addicted to sleeping in the bed with kids. MJ killed MJ.
Finally I find something you have written I can agree with. The 24 hour news networks who need something to broadcast - even if it is shit, lies or rumor. Add to this the rubbish that is served up on TV = especially reality tv and you have a massive dumbing down of pop culture and the elevation of celebrity.
It's the Cult Of Personality..........
Look into my eyes, what do you see?
Cult of Personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I've been everything you want to be
I'm the Cult of Personality
Like Mussolini and Kennedy
I'm the Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Neon lights, A Nobel Price
The mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You don't have to follow me
Only you can set me free
I sell the things you need to be
I'm the smiling face on your T.V.
I'm the Cult of Personality
I exploit you still you love me
I tell you one and one makes three
I'm the Cult of Personality
Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi
I'm the Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Cult of Personality
Neon lights a Nobel Prize
A leader speaks, that leader dies
You don't have to follow me
Only you can set you free
You gave me fortune
You gave me fame
You me power in your God's name
I'm every person you need to be
I'm the Cult of Personality
artsy folks are screwy in the head.
yes, i am a disaster.
i've always painted or wrote poetry at an alarming pace.
i feel the energy, it is all consuming and obsessive.
add being famous and money and you have a cluster fuck. (btw, i am broke as a joke)
some people cannot handle fame and money.
mike jackson was one of them who couldn't handle it.
estatic eccentric ppl are hilarious.
mike jackson is far from hilarious.
the guy had major unacceptable bullshit behavioral issues with children.
and why not women?
what man in their right mind sleeps with children when there are women or men everywhere?
odd.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
if found guilty when he was alive, should Mike have received a death sentence or just life in prison?
wait...
i forgot...
in many cases a child molester is set free sooner than many drug offenders.
that is quality justice right there.
deal pot and get caught = could be doing more time than a pedophile, depending on the state anyway.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
you are correct, so sad. I think it's about time for another mj pic........
got one of Mikey with a big ole bob marley type joint?
if only Mike woulda smoked the greenery i would think he'd have been better off.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
yeah, but you talk to ed or mike and ask them how fame or money and all that has effected them. Ed has said many times he was headed down the same road as kurt, and mike has his demons as well. Ed's take on it, seems to be, almost, that at the time, it could have gone either way, kurt dead or ed dead. and kurt died and it freaked
That said, i get your point, that PJ have been anti commercial, or were anti commercial pre Avocado days, but that said, its not simplistic like your post suggests.
Same with people like Uncle Neil or Dylan, or whoever you want to point to as the quintessential "i will do what the hell I want, and to hell with you all" artist. Both Dylan and Uncle Neil battled some stuff as well.
I agree the anti commercial route is better but even those who follow that path have trouble
They werent paying the fame monster from the word go, but it still nearly destroyed the band, and nearly destroyed the human beings that make up the band.
irrelevant. he wasnt found guilty. he was found innocent, and the evidence proves as such. Who knows what would have happened? What would have happened if the sky was green? Or the grass was purple? Who the hell cares?
I reiterate. The accusers, both, lied, willingly to destroy MJ, or were put up to it by their parents. MJ isnt alive. The parents of the kids, or the father of one accuser is and the mom of both are still alive. What should be done to those who lie, in court, under oath, and sling outrageous and beyond hurtful accusations at people, that have far reaching consequences?
You people need to stop the acid intake, if you dont think people who lie and say "he did this to me" knowing that he did no such thing, should be punished, jailed, or given the scarlet letter or some such punishment. Lying like that ruins peoples lives.
MJ wasnt found guilty. To think of a penalty for NOT commiting a crime is an exercise only an imbecile would undertake. Whats Ruben Carters penalty for NOT killing white people?
neil, dylan, and the men of pj do not sleep in the same bed as children.
ed enjoys women.
neil enjoys women.
dylan enjoys women and weed.
see what we're sayin?
write music, get hammered, become wealthy beyond your wildest dreams, build empires that touch the sky but dont sleep with children... pretty fuckin easy to understand.
i bet you neil would beat a child predator with his guitar.
if not, give me the guitar and i'll do it.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
MJ's supposed crime of feeding the fame monster, has no relation to 2 kids, or 2 kids parents lying and saying he did stuff to their children. His odd behavior makes it easier for the whole unthinking majority of folks to swallow the lies. As I said, MJ as an upstanding citizen, as a model citizen, someone who was still "black", someone who lived a "normal" life, wouldnt have met the same fate as this MJ did, the one that did exist. And thats sad. Its a result of many things. One of which is this insane idea that monsters arent real, we are told as we grow. But the real monsters of rapists, molestors, murderers, theives, cheats, swindlers, robbers, all do. And they dont look like normal people do they? No they are hideous. They wear scary masks. They look disfigured. They are insane and unstable. They are off their rocker.
But John and Suzy, the wealthy, happy, couple with the 3 kids, and the beautiful house, the picket fence, the minivan, the great jobs. The vacations in Palm Springs. No those people couldnt be abusers, or rapists or killers or any such deviants. They dont LOOK like that.
even right now.
dig up his box and you'll find shit.
btw, i like how you never answered several direct easy questions.
1. would you have allowed mike jackson to sleep in your childs bed?
2. why keep sleeping with children even after being accused of being a child predator?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
that is insane.
you actually believe we are that naive?
evil takes many forms.
jon and suzy are bullshit.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Someone said they didnt pay the fame monster so things turned out alright. thats what I am responding to. Neil has had a hard life. His kids have cerebal palsy. He himself has epilepsy. Neil battled drugs for years, remember the cocaine visible during The last Waltz. Neil himself almost died a few years back. Not paying the fame monster has been a great choice for him no doubt but, its not like poof all his life is perfect.
Dylan, same thing. Does whatever he wants. But he battled drugs for years. And there are often stories of him dealing with the public or his bandmates even in ways that make me cringe. One band member in a 2001 RS article said it was verboten to even look or talk to Dylan.
MJ;s troubles didnt materialize because of the sleepovers. They materialized because 2 crazed and parent influenced kids, told lies and the public bought it.
Whats the punishment for serial sleepovers, where no abuse occurs? Oh yeah officer, he sleeps in the same bed as little kids, but we can prove he never did anything untoward, so yeah, arrest him, jail him for,... for... for... sleeping in bed with kids? WHats the sentence for that folks?
well said
who has non-stop parties for children at fantasy land?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
You overestimate the intelligence of status quo america my friend. Whats the basis of every horror film? A normal couple, jon and suzy who are killers right? No, its Freddy Kreugar, or its an inbred family from Texas who wear human skin as masks, or its 2 face from batman. And I love comics and horror flicks. But lets call the truth the truth. And the truth is, the world, or america, views deviants as criminals. You remember the Elephant man? That was over a hundred years ago but tell me that guy wouldnt have gotten the same reaction in 2010 as well?
my father was a prison guard for 30 years though.
i am pretty sure i know something about bullshit.
mj is bullshit.
btw, it's freddy krueger
oddly enough, same as my last name.
burp...
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
When I was teaching high school there was no way I'd put myself in a situation where I could be accused of anything like this. This meant I took precautions: No being alone in a closed room or office with a student. If the room didn't have a window with witnesses outside then there was always another teacher in that room with me - no matter how innocent the interaction. No driving students alone in a car. No having students over to my house. No tender touching (this included hugging a distressed student - you invited one of their friends to do it). No going to parties thrown by students. No sharing phone numbers or facebook contacts with students.... you get my drift. It sucks you have to do some of this but this is the world we live in. Other things are what you'd call a professional boundary and quite acceptable and propper.
MJ should have known (and he would have been told) you do not have kids in your bed and you do not put yourself in a situation where these accusations can be made. The police and the prosecuter were doing their jobs, calling it a witchhunt is unfair. Trial by media, well that is another thing entirely and something he was a victim off - no doubt.
Sure he was a target for extortion - but let's be honest, he was an easy target because he made himself an easy target. If he'd used his brain it would never have happened - fair or not.
he still has not answered a direct question. Lol.