The difference between the death penalty and abortion

catefrances

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

well to me survival instinct and a conscious will to live are different, but maybe we're splitting hairs here.

catefrances wrote:

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

neither does someone's pet dog, but I'm pretty sure it's illegal and immoral to suck his brain out and toss it in the garbage.

yes they do.. its called survival instinct.

i dont see how theyre different... but yes we'll call it splitting hairs.

Jason P

CJMST3K wrote:

...I should add to my post above you that I'm a vegetarian who is for the death-penalty, for gun rights and for gay rights. No party will have me.

I think the Libertarians would let you in. http://www.lp.org/platform

They are iffy on the death penalty and I don't see anything on their actual platform that would suggest they are for it or against it (See item 1.5).

They are for gun rights because they don't want the government dictating our right to bear arms (see item 1.6).

And they are for gay rights "Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws." (See item 1.3)

As for being a vegetarian, I don't think they are against it but everyone will secretly talk about you behind your back .

Jason P

scb wrote:

stardust1976 wrote:

Around the 9 week mark I believe is when an embryo becomes a foetus. A baby can sustain life outside the womb from late in the second trimester, although it is difficult, it can be done. And as for saying it's a baby - well to me it always was. Ask someone who has had a miscarriage at 11 weeks, or 15 weeks or even at 7 or 8 weeks, when they REALLY wanted a baby, whether that child was real to them, and they will say yes. So no, definitely not cut and dried, and completely emotional. To me - once it's heart starts beating at around the 6 -7 week mark, it's a baby. This is my personal opinion, and I understand there are reasons women choose to have an abortion, and I fully support that right. I'm just saying that I don't know if I could do that, unless their was a valid (in my opinion) reason, such as a medical one, or the pregnancy being the result of rape. Just my opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.

I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.

I think Stardust has given valid points. Your refusal to acknowledge a fetus as a baby at some point during the 9 month pregnancy period is somewhat baffling to me. Don't take that as a personal attack, but I believe that you are so set on defending your beliefs that you are not considering some of the counter-points that are being presented on this thread.

cincybearcat

scb wrote:

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

of course I will. this thread has caused me to revisit the facts and do more research on the subject.

scb wrote:

Take whatever position you want, but please be sure that it's based on factual information.

Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)

I'm sure all of your internet sources are the only true, non-bs ones huh?

And yes, I'm just kidding.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I said IF that was true I'd change my stance instantly. I don't believe anything until extensive research is done, believe me.

scb wrote:

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

of course I will. this thread has caused me to revisit the facts and do more research on the subject.

scb wrote:

Take whatever position you want, but please be sure that it's based on factual information.

Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)

JonnyPistachio

scb wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Actually I meant a pregnancy that has progressed for 3 months. So, 6 months premature. They can live.

Please provide some evidence that this is possible and statistics indicating what the chances are.

Google it. I have read very rare instances. Obviosly 3 months sounds ridiculous. But it definitely happens at 5-6 months. But this has nothing to do with how prevalent it is. The point is, that a typical 9 month pregnancy is a lousy way of defining a person/baby/will to live/consiousness.This is about the fact that if ANY premature baby can survive, can it be considerd a person?

it is a living organism. I am the kind of person that doesnt kill bugs in my house. I catch them and release them outside. I can't imagine killing a baby, at ANY stage of development.

JonnyPistachio

scb wrote:

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

if this is true, it's disgusting and vile, and I change my stance on the issue.

JonnyPistachio wrote:

It has been proven that a fetus at 20 weeks can feel pain and does react to it.

Here are some common procedures for abortion:
Partial-birth abortion - The unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (This method was outlawed in the United States in 2007.)

Dilation and Evacuation - Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist and tear the baby’s body into pieces, which are then removed from the womb.

Saline abortion - Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother’s abdomen. The unborn baby swallows this fluid, is poisoned and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours. The toxic saline solution causes severe burns over the unborn child’s entire body.

It's not true.

it is true. do some research. how do you think it happens?
Maybe today more commonly they use drugs, or that good old suction device to suck out all the babies parts and placenta

JonnyPistachio

scb wrote:

CJMST3K - I thought you might find that last bit interesting. I hope it at least shows that I'm not just completely pulling arbitrary baseless shit out of my ass.

I guess David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology is clueless huh? I wouldnt call his findings arbitrary baseless shit out of anyones ass.

I was just giving instances that I thought might make people think differently. I thought that if anyone was to see how terrible abortion is, and SOME of the instances of how it is performed, some people might think twice about it and not just live by the arbitrary baseless, unscientific ideals that a baby isnt a person before it comes out of its mother.

PS-i am not debating whether abortion is right or not (I do believe it is the womans chioce), Once again, I just don't see how KILLING an innocent LIVING being via abortion is any better than killing a lunatic convicted murderer.

JonnyPistachio

stardust1976 wrote:

scb wrote:

I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.

People's feelings aren't relevant to biology in this regard. But to say that a foetus isn't a baby is not something I will ever agree to. And it's ok that people have differing opinions on the matter. If we were all the same the world would be a pretty boring place I'd have to say. I can only give my opinion, and it comes from having 4 children (as well as an ectopic pregnancy).....They were real to me from the second I knew I was pregnant. But I'm not narrow minded enough to not see the other side of the coin. I can see the point people make when they don't want a child and they discover they are pregnant - so they abort. I just personally believe in this day and age when the majority of people living in Western society have relatively cheap and easy access to all sorts of birth control methods, that abortion simply for that sake shouldn't be considered an option. For me, the issue is too filled with emotion to ever be able to say that a baby inside the womb isn't a baby, because it is. Yes, you can be pedantic and say that it only becomes a baby once it can sustain life - but then what would you say to the people that have buried a baby born at 20 weeks for example? Would you say that the baby that they got to hold for half an hour (even though it was not breathing), the baby that looked in every respect like a tiny version of a baby born at 36 weeks, was NOT a baby? That they shouldn't grieve because it wasn't really a baby? Whatever people believe - the fact of the matter is, is that barring any medical/health issues - that embryo/foetus/baby WILL turn out to be a human being in the flesh somewhere between 8 and 10 months after conception...sometimes earlier.

Would you tell the parents of a new born child who is having a heel prick done, that their baby isn't feeling pain because pain can only be a learned response? From my own experience this is not true. Every one of my children cried when given a needle or a heel prick or anything like that - and at 5 minutes old, there is no way they had 'learned' that behaviour or emotion. It's real - it exists. Does it exist in the womb? I don't know and don't pretend to, but I have a hard time believing that a baby learns that pain exists in the space of time it takes them to be born. That they can't feel pain inside the womb, but they can outside? That just doesn't sound right to me. And this is something that for a long time at least - no one will ever really know. You can't exactly ask them before they are born if they feel pain, now can you?

At the end of the day - I fully support a woman's right to choose, and I would never judge her for it. I would just personally have a hard time making that decision, but perhaps that's because of my children? Perhaps it's just my genetic makeup. I honestly believe though, that access to medical services that allow abortion, is necessary to prevent endangering women's lives with unsafe procedures.

this is the best thing i've ever read on here. This is about personal experience too, not all about statisticcs, what links and what journal said waht. It is about killing a living being. its great that we all have our views though on what is ok and what is not.

cincybearcat

I'd gladly give up the death penalty if I got no abortions in return.

_

stardust1976 wrote:

People's feelings aren't relevant to biology in this regard. But to say that a foetus isn't a baby is not something I will ever agree to. And it's ok that people have differing opinions on the matter. If we were all the same the world would be a pretty boring place I'd have to say. I can only give my opinion, and it comes from having 4 children (as well as an ectopic pregnancy).....They were real to me from the second I knew I was pregnant. But I'm not narrow minded enough to not see the other side of the coin. I can see the point people make when they don't want a child and they discover they are pregnant - so they abort. I just personally believe in this day and age when the majority of people living in Western society have relatively cheap and easy access to all sorts of birth control methods, that abortion simply for that sake shouldn't be considered an option. For me, the issue is too filled with emotion to ever be able to say that a baby inside the womb isn't a baby, because it is. Yes, you can be pedantic and say that it only becomes a baby once it can sustain life - but then what would you say to the people that have buried a baby born at 20 weeks for example? Would you say that the baby that they got to hold for half an hour (even though it was not breathing), the baby that looked in every respect like a tiny version of a baby born at 36 weeks, was NOT a baby? That they shouldn't grieve because it wasn't really a baby? Whatever people believe - the fact of the matter is, is that barring any medical/health issues - that embryo/foetus/baby WILL turn out to be a human being in the flesh somewhere between 8 and 10 months after conception...sometimes earlier.

Would you tell the parents of a new born child who is having a heel prick done, that their baby isn't feeling pain because pain can only be a learned response? From my own experience this is not true. Every one of my children cried when given a needle or a heel prick or anything like that - and at 5 minutes old, there is no way they had 'learned' that behaviour or emotion. It's real - it exists. Does it exist in the womb? I don't know and don't pretend to, but I have a hard time believing that a baby learns that pain exists in the space of time it takes them to be born. That they can't feel pain inside the womb, but they can outside? That just doesn't sound right to me. And this is something that for a long time at least - no one will ever really know. You can't exactly ask them before they are born if they feel pain, now can you?

At the end of the day - I fully support a woman's right to choose, and I would never judge her for it. I would just personally have a hard time making that decision, but perhaps that's because of my children? Perhaps it's just my genetic makeup. I honestly believe though, that access to medical services that allow abortion, is necessary to prevent endangering women's lives with unsafe procedures.

I respect everyone's emotions, religion, etc. about their own pregnancies. I have cried at the funeral of a baby who was miscarried at 39 weeks, the day after throwing her mother a big baby shower. I have helped friends through emotionally painful miscarriages. I have witnessed autopsies of stillborn babies, and the agony the parents felt in making the decision to autopsy or not. And I have helped many women through abortions of pregnancies that they considered babies, and even been to memorial services provided by the abortion clinic. But these are all about the emotions and perspectives of the woman carrying the pregnancy. I don't think anyone has a right to tell a woman she's killing her "baby" when that is not only not her perspective but also not the perspective of medical science or law.

I don't know what "abortion simply for that sake" is - but I don't think it's my right to tell a woman it shouldn't be an option. If you're suggesting that most decisions to have abortions are made just as another birth control option - like, "I don't want to take the pill, so I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant" - I disagree.

_

Jason P wrote:

scb wrote:

stardust1976 wrote:

Around the 9 week mark I believe is when an embryo becomes a foetus. A baby can sustain life outside the womb from late in the second trimester, although it is difficult, it can be done. And as for saying it's a baby - well to me it always was. Ask someone who has had a miscarriage at 11 weeks, or 15 weeks or even at 7 or 8 weeks, when they REALLY wanted a baby, whether that child was real to them, and they will say yes. So no, definitely not cut and dried, and completely emotional. To me - once it's heart starts beating at around the 6 -7 week mark, it's a baby. This is my personal opinion, and I understand there are reasons women choose to have an abortion, and I fully support that right. I'm just saying that I don't know if I could do that, unless their was a valid (in my opinion) reason, such as a medical one, or the pregnancy being the result of rape. Just my opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.

I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.

I think Stardust has given valid points. Your refusal to acknowledge a fetus as a baby at some point during the 9 month pregnancy period is somewhat baffling to me. Don't take that as a personal attack, but I believe that you are so set on defending your beliefs that you are not considering some of the counter-points that are being presented on this thread.

Well I've already considered all the counterpoints made in this thread and if I was going to believe them I would have believed them already. I already said I can understand why people feel like their unborn are babies and that I respect that, so I'm not sure why you think I'm not considering what Stardust has to say. On an emotional level, I think of a fetus and even an embryo as a baby too - I just don't think individual emotions are relevant to medicine. I believe I've even said that the line gets blurrier at the end of a pregnancy. And I've asked at what point everyone else thinks a fetus becomes a baby, but hardly anyone has responded - they just reply by saying I'm wrong. Stardust responded by saying she thinks it's when the heart starts beating and I didn't argue with her about that at all. What else do you want me to say? :? Personally, as I've said, the issue of whether or not it's a baby isn't really relevant to me when it comes to abortion - except in the comparison between abortion and the death penalty.

_

cincybearcat wrote:

scb wrote:

Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)

I'm sure all of your internet sources are the only true, non-bs ones huh?

And yes, I'm just kidding.

You should know better than that by now. But your joke will probably encourage people to be misinformed. Good job.

_

JonnyPistachio wrote:

scb wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Actually I meant a pregnancy that has progressed for 3 months. So, 6 months premature. They can live.

Please provide some evidence that this is possible and statistics indicating what the chances are.

Google it. I have read very rare instances. Obviosly 3 months sounds ridiculous. But it definitely happens at 5-6 months. But this has nothing to do with how prevalent it is. The point is, that a typical 9 month pregnancy is a lousy way of defining a person/baby/will to live/consiousness.This is about the fact that if ANY premature baby can survive, can it be considerd a person?

it is a living organism. I am the kind of person that doesnt kill bugs in my house. I catch them and release them outside. I can't imagine killing a baby, at ANY stage of development.

I don't need to Google it to know that it's absolute bullshit. If you're trying to make the point above, I don't know why you have to say something as sensational and misleading as this.

I don't kill bugs either. Last summer I let a whole colony of ants take over my house because I didn't want to kill them. I finally let someone else put out ant bait once it had become impossible to keep them from overrunning my cats' food bowls. I'm glad you haven't - and will never have to - imagine killing a baby at any stage of development. Not everyone is so fortunate.

JonnyPistachio

I think a fetus becomes a baby at 12-16 weeks.

Just a few other thoughts on abortion. I have heard that there are some laws being considered that require a woman to see an ultrasound before having an abortion. I think one law was just declined in Florida. I don't think it's a bad idea to show a woman the moving, living being inside of her. I would think it might make a few people reconsider having an abortion.

Also, just for the record I know wikipedia is not a perfect source, but I read this:
In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions. Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:

25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% Cannot afford a baby
14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
7.9% Want no (more) children
3.3% Risk to fetal health
2.8% Risk to maternal health
2.1% Other


In my opinion, the last three are the only legitimate reasons.
And even if this poll in not 100% accurate or old, just from what i've read over the years, it is close to reality.

blackredyellow

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I think a fetus becomes a baby at 12-16 weeks.

Just a few other thoughts on abortion. I have heard that there are some laws being considered that require a woman to see an ultrasound before having an abortion. I think one law was just declined in Florida. I don't think it's a bad idea to show a woman the moving, living being inside of her. I would think it might make a few people reconsider having an abortion.

In theory, I don't think that's a terrible law.. at least the idea behind it...

but in practice, you want to force people who are having a legal procedure to pay for another costly one first? that's what bothers me about it.

JonnyPistachio

blackredyellow wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I think a fetus becomes a baby at 12-16 weeks.

Just a few other thoughts on abortion. I have heard that there are some laws being considered that require a woman to see an ultrasound before having an abortion. I think one law was just declined in Florida. I don't think it's a bad idea to show a woman the moving, living being inside of her. I would think it might make a few people reconsider having an abortion.

In theory, I don't think that's a terrible law.. at least the idea behind it...

but in practice, you want to force people who are having a legal procedure to pay for another costly one first? that's what bothers me about it.

agreed. How bout if they do a special -- 1/2 price ultrasounds?

cincybearcat

scb wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

scb wrote:

Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)

I'm sure all of your internet sources are the only true, non-bs ones huh?

And yes, I'm just kidding.

You should know better than that by now. But your joke will probably encourage people to be misinformed. Good job.

Thanks. But how exactly?

megatron

so you started a thread just to get it hijacked..

well all i know about life at conception is they will have to redo the whole birthday system.

JonnyPistachio

megatron wrote:

so you started a thread just to get it hijacked..

well all i know about life at conception is they will have to redo the whole birthday system.

haha, funny you should say that. I have a friend whose b-day is three days after mine and he always calls me to aks how it feels to be old. One day I realized that since I was a month early from my due date that he is actually older than me. (or, not to agrue more, but he was conceived before me)

So I started tacking on 8 months to my birthday and telling everone I want conception day presents.
just so you all know, I celebrate conceptoin day in MAy 17th.
and my half birthday is July 17th.
I accept presents in the forms of cash, PJ stuff, and rum.