the death penalty

Godfather.

they should call this place the snake pit, seems if the few do not share the same opinion as the many they get fed to the (verbal) snake pit,most of you do gooders on the train seem to think yours in the only opinion that matters..... the the death penalty was voted in right ? by the citizens of the states they live in
well....welcome to the real world.

geez I go to bed and you guys turn this personal,what does that say about you guys ?

Godfather.

wolfamongwolves

ed243421 wrote:

chad and on the edge
please do not change your views on this subject
i will never understand why they take the side of a murderer
and that's fine
but i won't change my mind
there is nothing that the anti-dp folk can say that would make me think otherwise
i do not need to change their views
i have mine

If you had bothered to read my post properly, you would have read this:
"Let me be clear: there is not a single person on this thread who is saying that what these people have done isn't despicable, reprehensible and deserve justice."
No one is taking the side of murderers.

But you're right - nothing will make you think otherwise so long as you only hear what you want to hear. Unfortunately for you, though, nothing will make your position at all convincing until you start to listen and engage with what you don't agree with too.

wolfamongwolves

Godfather. wrote:

they should call this place the snake pit, seems if the few do not share the same opinion as the many they get fed to the (verbal) snake pit,most of you do gooders on the train seem to think yours in the only opinion that matters..... the the death penalty was voted in right ? by the citizens of the states they live in
well....welcome to the real world.

geez I go to bed and you guys turn this personal,what does that say about you guys ?

Godfather.

I think I've been fairly clear on this, Godfather, that there is more than just opinion involved here. I also think that I for one (and I don't think I'm the only one) have given others' opinions their fair dues within reason.

But it doesn't take long in reading through this board to see that your charge of thinking "the only opinion that matters" is far more applicable to some of the more vocal pro-death penalty folk on here than the other way around. There are a lot of people on your side of the fence who have made it plainly clear that they have no intention of even listening to the other side, let alone engaging in intelligent debate.

OnTheEdge

wolfamongwolves wrote:

chadwick (and OnTheEdge),

When you reduce everything to the lowest common denominator, when you dumb everything down to "garbage", "evil" etc, it makes it very easy to start making sweeping judgments and to see no consequence in killing people. The problem here is this: it's completely divorced from reality. The world is just not like that, and however much you try to convince yourselves that certain human beings (whatever awful things they have done) are "garbage", to make it easier for you justifying killing them, the real world is a little more complex.

Let me be clear: there is not a single person on this thread who is saying that what these people have done isn't despicable, reprehensible and deserve justice. But the death penalty is in no way just, and you seem blissfully unaware of the difference between prudent justice and mindless vengeance. Continuing to give more and more examples, followed by how you would do exactly the same to them is not going to make any difference to the debate and only serves to illustrate the hypocrisy, and double-standards of your position all the more clearly. If you want to win people over to your side, you could not be going about it in a less effective way.

Your entire approach to this thread has not been to intelligently debate the pros and cons of the death penalty, but to embark on unthinking hysterical polemics that do not strengthen your position, but rather strengthen the anti-death penalty position. When you start describing with sickening glee how you would do exactly the same to these people, all you do is illustrate the mindless hypocrisy that makes the death penalty so morally and judicially bankrupt. You expect us to agree with you that when murderers do awful things they are "monsters, inhuman, garbage", but that when you do the same to them - and seem to take some sickminded and twisted pleasure int it! - that you are somehow noble and just?!

Quite frankly, chadwick, the more you go on about your little vigilante "fantasy in your head" (to use your own rather telling words!), the more I start to realise that the way you think is not so very different from that of the "garbage" you vilify.

For all your many posts, you have added precisely nothing of worth to the debate.

Wow, i'm picturing you sitting in a high back red velvet chair with a pipe in your mouth and a leather bound book on your lap and a nice robe on. :roll: First of all, people like you need to realize that these people ARE garbage. I know some of you like to believe we live in a society where "oopsie" these people made a mistake. No, they are animals that get pleasure out of destroying other peoples lives, normal peoples lives. Sorry, but I don't see things your way, where putting someone in prison for a crime like the one I posted is a suitable punishment. Where they are alloowed to wake up in the morning, go in the yard, enjoy a cig., read a book, have a conversation, breathe, walk, eat, sleep and dream, here a joke from an inmate and have a laugh. You call me a hypocrite. I simply do not see it that way. I see people like you not having the ability to put yourself in the victims shoes and imagine what they went through. I feel people like you are a little more heartless when it comes to the victims and a little too sympathetic when it comes to the criminal. Lastly, I never try convincing anybody anti death penalty that they are wrong, i'm simply stating how I feel, while you all try to convince me that I am wrong. I know people on here have their beliefs and nobody on here is going to change that.

Now please, all you high almighty no wrong doing pro abortion anti death penalty folk can go back to judging me.....i like the attention :roll:

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

Wow, i'm picturing you sitting in a high back red velvet chair with a pipe in your mouth and a leather bound book on your lap and a nice robe on. :roll: First of all, people like you need to realize that these people ARE garbage. I know some of you like to believe we live in a society where "oopsie" these people made a mistake. No, they are animals that get pleasure out of destroying other peoples lives, normal peoples lives. Sorry, but I don't see things your way, where putting someone in prison for a crime like the one I posted is a suitable punishment. Where they are alloowed to wake up in the morning, go in the yard, enjoy a cig., read a book, have a conversation, breathe, walk, eat, sleep and dream, here a joke from an inmate and have a laugh. You call me a hypocrite. I simply do not see it that way. I see people like you not having the ability to put yourself in the victims shoes and imagine what they went through. I feel people like you are a little more heartless when it comes to the victims and a little too sympathetic when it comes to the criminal. Lastly, I never try convincing anybody anti death penalty that they are wrong, i'm simply stating how I feel, while you all try to convince me that I am wrong. I know people on here have their beliefs and nobody on here is going to change that.

Actually, I don't give much thought to the murderer. These people don't figure so highly in my scheme of things. My opinion on this issue isn't centered around how much of a scumbag someone may or may not be. It isn't solely about the criminal. It's about society taking a moral, reasonable stance, and not descending to the level of the people it condemns.

ajedigecko

OnTheEdge wrote:

Not sure how the topic went to having sex with minors, but just to clarify, in case you didn't look into this case deep enough. An 11 year old girl was sodomized and beaten, they then poured gasoline on her and burned her to death. And you people rant on about a civilized society. News flash....we do not live in a civilized society! These fuckers do not deserve another breath..................unless it's a breath inside the gas chamber.

not exactly sure how to state this....but i will attempt.

i have developed the mindset...when i see a horrific crime commited against a child, i want death for the thing. even if the thing did not physically/literally kill the child.

they only way i will change my view....if could outsource our "rehabilitation services" to countries that know how to treat these things.

when a father/husband/doctor loses his family, in the manner that has occured....then i think about the thing sleeping in a climate controlled environment, electricity, plumbing, food, all of the basic needs meet. i feel our system if flawed.

wolfamongwolves

OnTheEdge wrote:

Wow, i'm picturing you sitting in a high back red velvet chair with a pipe in your mouth and a leather bound book on your lap and a nice robe on. :roll: First of all, people like you need to realize that these people ARE garbage. I know some of you like to believe we live in a society where "oopsie" these people made a mistake. No, they are animals that get pleasure out of destroying other peoples lives, normal peoples lives. Sorry, but I don't see things your way, where putting someone in prison for a crime like the one I posted is a suitable punishment. Where they are alloowed to wake up in the morning, go in the yard, enjoy a cig., read a book, have a conversation, breathe, walk, eat, sleep and dream, here a joke from an inmate and have a laugh. You call me a hypocrite. I simply do not see it that way. I see people like you not having the ability to put yourself in the victims shoes and imagine what they went through. I feel people like you are a little more heartless when it comes to the victims and a little too sympathetic when it comes to the criminal. Lastly, I never try convincing anybody anti death penalty that they are wrong, i'm simply stating how I feel, while you all try to convince me that I am wrong. I know people on here have their beliefs and nobody on here is going to change that.

Now please, all you high almighty no wrong doing pro abortion anti death penalty folk can go back to judging me.....i like the attention :roll:

I’m not trying to change how you feel. And I’ve been repeatedly explicit in saying that I do not in any way condone the crimes, or am any less repulsed by them than you. If you had read my posts properly you’d see that your portrayal of me and my position is way off mark. As is your image of my furniture. You have severely missed my point.

What I am trying to point out to you is this: You are entitled to your opinion and to your feelings (which I share) about repulsive crimes by deeply immoral or amoral people. But to justify killing another person based on your opinion and feeling amounts not to justice, but to vengeance. And no society can call itself civilised that values vengeance over justice. That is my point, that has always been my point.

On the point of hypocrisy: You say you simply don’t see it that way, and move on. Of course you don’t see it that way. Not surprisingly, the one part of my post you didn’t respond to, or didn’t even acknowledge is why it is wrong for one person to murder a person, and right for another. It is the key double-standard that underlies the whole debate on the death penalty, and none of you try to answer it. Until you do, your case doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

Or let’s have a look at what you did say: “I never try convincing anybody anti death penalty that they are wrong”, even though you had just said “people like you need to realize that these people ARE garbage.” That is a double-standard, it is self-contradictory. It is, for want of a better word, hypocritical.

wolfamongwolves

ajedigecko wrote:

i feel our system is flawed.

That's the one and only thing I agree with you on. And I also think that for that very reason (among very, very many others) it is morally and judicially irresponsible and illegitimate to use that flawed system to kill people.

Godfather.

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

they should call this place the snake pit, seems if the few do not share the same opinion as the many they get fed to the (verbal) snake pit,most of you do gooders on the train seem to think yours in the only opinion that matters..... the the death penalty was voted in right ? by the citizens of the states they live in
well....welcome to the real world.

geez I go to bed and you guys turn this personal,what does that say about you guys ?

Godfather.

I think I've been fairly clear on this, Godfather, that there is more than just opinion involved here. I also think that I for one (and I don't think I'm the only one) have given others' opinions their fair dues within reason.

But it doesn't take long in reading through this board to see that your charge of thinking "the only opinion that matters" is far more applicable to some of the more vocal pro-death penalty folk on here than the other way around. There are a lot of people on your side of the fence who have made it plainly clear that they have no intention of even listening to the other side, let alone engaging in intelligent debate.

you are one of the few that have been fair and polite in your debate I was not referring to you and a few others.
there are some on both sides of this debate that get a little more forward with their opinion, it only takes one spark to start a fire but in the end it's all good "no harm no foul" we all think differently on many subjects and that is what keeps the playing field at full tilt boogie and usually fair and interesting.

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27

Godfather. wrote:

they should call this place the snake pit, seems if the few do not share the same opinion as the many they get fed to the (verbal) snake pit,most of you do gooders on the train seem to think yours in the only opinion that matters..... the the death penalty was voted in right ? by the citizens of the states they live in
well....welcome to the real world.

geez I go to bed and you guys turn this personal,what does that say about you guys ?

Godfather.

wrong, the death penalty was never voted on in the states when they were first founded. punitive actions are never up for vote, they are sentenced by judges or put in place by those in government. the california death penalty moratorium was not voted on by the public now was it? neither was the illinois one, it was stopped by the governor at the time.

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

they should call this place the snake pit, seems if the few do not share the same opinion as the many they get fed to the (verbal) snake pit,most of you do gooders on the train seem to think yours in the only opinion that matters..... the the death penalty was voted in right ? by the citizens of the states they live in
well....welcome to the real world.

geez I go to bed and you guys turn this personal,what does that say about you guys ?

Godfather.

wrong, the death penalty was never voted on in the states when they were first founded. punitive actions are never up for vote, they are sentenced by judges or put in place by those in government. the california death penalty moratorium was not voted on by the public now was it? neither was the illinois one, it was stopped by the governor at the time.

thank you, but the fact is it is in place.

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27

Godfather. wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

they should call this place the snake pit, seems if the few do not share the same opinion as the many they get fed to the (verbal) snake pit,most of you do gooders on the train seem to think yours in the only opinion that matters..... the the death penalty was voted in right ? by the citizens of the states they live in
well....welcome to the real world.

geez I go to bed and you guys turn this personal,what does that say about you guys ?

Godfather.

wrong, the death penalty was never voted on in the states when they were first founded. punitive actions are never up for vote, they are sentenced by judges or put in place by those in government. the california death penalty moratorium was not voted on by the public now was it? neither was the illinois one, it was stopped by the governor at the time.

thank you, but the fact is it is in place.

Godfather.

that fact does not make it right.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

the discussion can get heated and emotional because I for one don't know how you or others could seem so utterly apathetic towards the beauty of life. and don't tell me that it's your love of life that you are pro-dp. because we both know that's BS.

I think we are above treating humans as we would treat a rabid dog. We should not put humans down. We're better than that.

Godfather. wrote:

they should call this place the snake pit, seems if the few do not share the same opinion as the many they get fed to the (verbal) snake pit,most of you do gooders on the train seem to think yours in the only opinion that matters..... the the death penalty was voted in right ? by the citizens of the states they live in
well....welcome to the real world.

geez I go to bed and you guys turn this personal,what does that say about you guys ?

Godfather.

ajedigecko

wolfamongwolves wrote:

ajedigecko wrote:

i feel our system is flawed.

That's the one and only thing I agree with you on. And I also think that for that very reason (among very, very many others) it is morally and judicially irresponsible and illegitimate to use that flawed system to kill people.

i am certain that we agree the "system is flawed"......but flawed for a different reason.

cincybearcat

Paul David wrote:

the discussion can get heated and emotional because I for one don't know how you or others could seem so utterly apathetic towards the beauty of life.

This is an interesting comment. I think both sides could say the same thing.

One side just thinks there is no reason ever to have state sponsored killing, so they are trying to protect life.

The other side thinks that if you take someone's life away you prove you are dangerous and could easily do it again and they are protecting life.

It is an interesting debate and emotion certain comes into play. I also would say that, the emotional part is part of the problem as it is part of why some people (myself included) have supported the death penalty. It's tough to have any different opinion if you put yourself in the shoes of an individual that has had their family (wife, husband, kids, etc) slaughtered by a callous murderer.

It is still tough for me to say I want no death penalty. In a case where it is obvious who did what and it is such a terrible crime, it's tough for me not to think that the death penalty is the correct form of punishment. I don't want anyone to be at risk (general public, prison guards, other inmates, etc) just to keep a murderer alive in a cell. Those are the cases where I still find myself supporting the death penalty. Though it is great to continue to think about it and debate it as you can learn from the debate and opinions change.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

my wife is the assistant director at a daycare. She just called me. A little boy that goes there passed away this morning from cancer. 5 years old.

All life is precious.

No one has the right to take it away.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

cincybearcat wrote:

Though it is great to continue to think about it and debate it as you can learn from the debate and opinions change.

agreed. there was a point in my life where I supported it.

Godfather.

Paul David wrote:

the discussion can get heated and emotional because I for one don't know how you or others could seem so utterly apathetic towards the beauty of life. and don't tell me that it's your love of life that you are pro-dp. because we both know that's BS.

I think we are above treating humans as we would treat a rabid dog. We should not put humans down. We're better than that.

Godfather. wrote:

they should call this place the snake pit, seems if the few do not share the same opinion as the many they get fed to the (verbal) snake pit,most of you do gooders on the train seem to think yours in the only opinion that matters..... the the death penalty was voted in right ? by the citizens of the states they live in
well....welcome to the real world.

geez I go to bed and you guys turn this personal,what does that say about you guys ?

Godfather.

1) really.. you don't know that you talk like you're the foremost authority on what is right and wrong,save your self righteous bs for someone else.

2) are we ? I think we are but by who's standards ?.. yours ? wake up man this is a big world and not everybody shares the same opinion you do stop pushing yourself and your opinion on others,we all offer our ideas and opinion and the grown ups do it with out trying to insult others when someone else has a different opinion or idea.

Godfather.

JonnyPistachio

OnTheEdge wrote:

TriumphantAngel wrote:

this place is like banging your head against a brick wall.

support the death penalty if thats how you feel and hell you are free to post as you see fit. i'll never understand though, why some of you (through your choice of violent words and utter glee when talking of paybacks) act like the animals you are condemning.

it's creepy.

to the max.

Maybe some people feel for the victims and their families in a way that makes us very angry. I imagine a crime like this happening to my family, or god forbid, my daughter, and yes I get very angry at the scums that commit these violent inhumane crimes. These people do very sick things without ever considering for a moment about what the victim is going through, all they care about is their own sick pleasure. I watched a movie on Ted Bundy the other night. All he ever thought about was himself. I got pleasure out of watching how he freaked out before his death. What comes around goes around. Fuck em!

To many of the DP advocates in here:
Death penalty to Ted Bundy = Justice.
Death penalty to Tim Evans = Mistake.(?)
Death penalty to Caeron Willingham = maybe a mistake (?), but who knows? Ahh, who cares, he’s DEAD now, and since that’s irreversible, it doenst matter, right? how do yo uexplain this?

As was said earlier in this thread by both sides, there is no excuse for executing an innocent man. Therefore the death penalty is a failure, a travesty, deplorable, pathetic, and extremely flawed.

Death sentence is irreversible. Hundreds and hundreds have been exonerated. Imagine the ones that should have been exonerated that didn’t have the money to afford a good lawyer. Dead innocent people at the hands of the smartest people who run our governments….hmmm.

I am not trying to change anyones opinion either. People are throwing around the age-old ‘you should think outside of the box”… haha, man the hypocrisy!

The reason why I say its hypocrisy is because I can admit that I used to have trouble deciding how I felt on this, so I think I saw it from both sides. I used to think about what I would do if I caught a murderer in the act killing and raping a 12 year old girl. I would do things that Chadwick has described. If someone killed my kids, my anger would probably overtake me and bad, bad things would happen…

But, that doesn’t make it OK for people in our governemtns to arrange and carry out the murder of its citizens. Its murder, no matter how you look at it.

And as it stands, I can understand why people want these terrible people off the earth. But the death penalty AS IT STANDS, with all its mistakes and injustices, is wrong and ineffective.

Yes, the DP is in place now, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and predict that it wont be around forever.

redrock

cincybearcat wrote:

It's tough to have any different opinion if you put yourself in the shoes of an individual that has had their family (wife, husband, kids, etc) slaughtered by a callous murderer.

In a previous thread about the death penalty, there was a poster who was in that situation. He was still against the death penalty. I don't think he was unique in his way of thinking.

An eye for an eye.. a life for a life - says it all. Vengeance, not punishment. Doesn't bring the dead person back to life. Doesn't really bring closure - that comes from within.