Anyone who doubts the media's impact on body image is just not being realistic. The media helps define and communicate our culture and sadly, rail-thin women = beauty is a message that is being sent. It is interesting to me that western cultures have perpetuated that image and western cultures have the highest rates of anorexia and bulemia.
But western cultures also have the highest rates of morbid obesity so how exactly does the media come into play there I wonder?
Well, I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know that binge eating is associated with depression, anxiety, and lonliness. So to the extent that depression, anxiety, and lonliness are caused by women's failure to live up to an unrealistic image, then this would contribute to the obesity epidemic too.
Maybe the OP was a video about suicide.
Did anyone ever consider that? NO.
It's always dicks, nuts and butt jokes on this serious forum.
Frankly I dislike posting in here because someone always comes along and fucks up your point.
People probably ignored the suicide aspect, not because it's irrelevant, but because it's universally viewed as a terrible thing (regardless of the reasons behind it). Those types of things get passed over here because there is really no debate about it.
Well, I may be dramatic, but have you ever lost someone to suicide and then called them terrible. How do you sleep after saying something as cold as that. Ignore suicide and guess what, it finds you!
holy cow... i never called anyone who committed suicide terrible... and yes, suicide has found me a couple of times in my life, but thanks for wishing it on me again.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Maybe the OP was a video about suicide.
Did anyone ever consider that? NO.
It's always dicks, nuts and butt jokes on this serious forum.
Frankly I dislike posting in here because someone always comes along and fucks up your point.
People probably ignored the suicide aspect, not because it's irrelevant, but because it's universally viewed as a terrible thing (regardless of the reasons behind it). Those types of things get passed over here because there is really no debate about it.
Well, I may be dramatic, but have you ever lost someone to suicide and then called them terrible. How do you sleep after saying something as cold as that. Ignore suicide and guess what, it finds you!
WOW! now you just have to be kidding here!?
I think blackredyellow made perfect sense in what he said. Just to clarify in case you werent kidding, I dont think he was calling anyone terrible, he was merely stating that any situation that leads to suicide is not a good thing. Gita, I honestly can't believe the stuff you type. :shock:
give me one reason why you think it's wrong aside from you don't like it ... if you lived in china where everyone was doing this - do you think that you would honestly feel the same way!??
you can go on about how everyone has choices and to a certain degree i agree with you and commend that attitude but the truth is society has incredible pressures - some are easier to break free from while others are not ... you make it sound like its a simple choice people make when in fact - it's years of sociological evolution at play ...
the majority of our justice system is based on social conformity ... it is everywhere ...
This thread - and your point above about social norms - makes me think of the thread awhile back about women not shaving their legs. Did you see all the insults hurled at the women who choose to break this norm? You'd think they weren't going to be allowed into society!
I love how people have failed to acknowledge the very real consequences, in the form of discrimination, for women who fall outside of the standard of beauty in this society. Studies have shown that women who are heavier get passed over for jobs & promotions, get paid less on average, etc. than their thinner counterparts. No pressure to conform though! :roll:
to be 100% fair, studies have shown that both men AND women who are heavier get passed over in comparison to their thinner counterparts. i've never seen it directed to only women, but both genders.
i would never deny the over-arcing reach and influence of the media....and if i am to lay 'blame' i put it on both men AND women.
someone earlier, i think dan, mentioned how men's mags have pics of sexy women on the covers, and women's mags have pics of the same women. food for thought eh? the mental dynamics of men and women are quite different in that regard, overall.
cultural norms....whether for behavior or looks or anything else....VERY strong influence. just about everything within a society is based on a perceived and accepted cultural norm; whether murder is acceptable or not...or whether a woman shaves her legs or not. (and no, i am not comparing the 2....just pointing out societies role in determining such things). being heavier and untanned used to be the 'ideal'...since it signified you had plenty to eat and did not have to work out in the sun. nowadays, being thin and tanned (tho that is changing) is the ideal....b/c it is seen as having the leisure time and $$$ to spend working out and spending time in the sun. so all are a reflection on MONEY and wealth, and the precieved, and visible, displays of such wealth.
dan's post (out of breath) and drowned out's pretty spot on for me, tho of course i agree with much that you say scb. however, i also must admit, that photo in post 2, she looks damn healthy to me, BMI or not. do you actually know she weighs 110 pounds? i have no idea. either way, she has a really nice amount of muscle on her, sure sign of good health. and, amazingly, i DO know women around her size and just as large-breasted...so while not the norm, not impossible. the tan, yea...agree 100% with you on tho. thing is tho, if she's a surfer, even with consistent use of a sunblock, she'd probably still get tan.
btw - i now read the whole thread, and also see drowned out already addressed the point i did .....and i think it's a fascinating discussion! few off-the-cuff remarks aside - which should always be expected - i think a pretty damn fine and focused conversation. and i also admit, i did not watch either video (tho got the gist of em thru the posts) simply b/c the OP erased all her posts, and in any case, i never view youtube while at work.
however, as a woman, i just think it's FAR too simplistic to lay blame on the media, or 'most men'...for our cultural ideals. does the media play a very large role? you bet. however, if it really were such an easy blame-game, i think we'd have rectified it by now, or damn close. even in the media, there is a lot of positive messages out there and a lot of positive imagery. also make note of different cultural perspectives, as in african american and hispanic women are more apt to appreciate their curvy bodies and accept them, so the media is not the end-all, be-all. i also think of the dove campaign, using real women in their ads....and many mags highlighting real women as arbiters of beauty, etc. so like most things, it's not all evil.
1. Despite your (and others') problem with the phrasing of her point, the message was clear and valid if you ask me. The message I heard was that many men don't have a true understanding of what it's like to be a woman in this society and many of the posts in this thread support that idea.
2. Jealous?? You boys need to lay off. It's so sad how, when women are trying to make intelligent points about relevant topic like healthy body image, y'all are so quick to dismiss dissenting opinions as jealously. Give me a break! I read her comment as one of concern for the personhood of the woman in the picture and women everywhere, who deserve to be loved even when we have incontinence - but the message in photos such as those is that we won't be. Seriously - do you think the men here will give two shits about this woman once her body no longer fits their ideal of sexy?
3. If the media had no influence of people, it would not be a multi-bilion dollar industry.
1. No, I don't have a true understanding of what it's like to be a woman and never will. Men will never know what it's like to be a woman. What's your point? The main difference I see, is the amount of time spent complaining about how hard it is to be that sex
2. :roll: man....I didn't dismiss any dissenting opinions. I agreed with one. The woman YOU are defending, however, insulted men a few times in this thread, and dismissed their opinions. You also dismiss my (actually JP's) point ("you need to lay off"), then comment on how WOMEN try to make intelligent points and we dismiss them.....pot to kettle much? The icing on the cake is following it up with a facetious question meant to infer that we're all shallow. like c'mon.
Me, personally....I will give the same two shits about her that I do now. She's a human being. I wish her no harm. on a personal level, I don't feel any closer to her than any other woman I see on the street. If she were old and unattractive, I might not want to have sex with her anymore, but that's more because that desire was based 100% on attraction, NOT on anything else...if I knew and loved her, the attraction would run much deeper, obviously.
I don't understand what you think would be the 'proper' ideal here. Should everyone be deprogrammed, blind, have no sense of touch or smell, and just walk around hoping the right personality will one day say hi? That's why these free-will discussions are thought-provoking, but entirely impractical in application. Unless we're going to re-program the whole world...all we can do is hope to gain some understanding, but it won't change much in the real world. JP defended the jealousy comments concisely, I'll leave it at that.
3. Read my post again. I'm the last person to suggest the media does not influence people. I just think it's not as big a role as some are suggesting. But ya, TWICE I mention that media plays a role. You just like arguing with me, admit it
I never said that those types of posts don't contribute to the problem. I just don't see how men making comments about a beautiful woman should give other women self esteem issues. I do see why posts like this play a role in the problem, but I don't understand it.
These statements seem to contradict each other. :?
I am merely saying that if I see abeautiful woman walking down the street and say to my friend, "Hey, she's beautiful", how is that any different from posting a picture of a beautiful woman? if it's my human nature to be attracted to someone like Marissa Miller, should I keep my mouth shut, never say anything?
Let me ask you this: If your idea of beauty was tall, blonde, blue-eyed, giant breasts, and unnaturally thin, and your daughter was short, brunette, brown-eyed, small-breasted (or likely to be when she got them), and heavy, would you tell her "SHE'S beautiful!" every single time you saw a woman who looked like Marissa Miller and never when you saw a woman who looked like your daughter? Would you want your daughter's elementary school to hold up this picture and tell your daughter that this is what beauty and desirability look like? Would you like the boys in her life to do that?
I think many people (men and women) speak out of both sides of their mouths when they tell their daughters to disregard others' ideals of beauty but then reinforce the stereotypes and write it off as human nature or personal preference.
Also, as someone else has already pointed out, it is not human nature to think Marissa Miller has the perfect body. People learn to be attracted to this through socialization and then go on to perpetuate that socialization in others. If we lived in the times of Marilyn Monroe or later, very few men - and certainly not society and media as a whole - would have thought Marissa Miller's body was ideal.
1. Despite your (and others') problem with the phrasing of her point, the message was clear and valid if you ask me. The message I heard was that many men don't have a true understanding of what it's like to be a woman in this society and many of the posts in this thread support that idea.
2. Jealous?? You boys need to lay off. It's so sad how, when women are trying to make intelligent points about relevant topic like healthy body image, y'all are so quick to dismiss dissenting opinions as jealously. Give me a break! I read her comment as one of concern for the personhood of the woman in the picture and women everywhere, who deserve to be loved even when we have incontinence - but the message in photos such as those is that we won't be. Seriously - do you think the men here will give two shits about this woman once her body no longer fits their ideal of sexy?
3. If the media had no influence of people, it would not be a multi-bilion dollar industry.
Yes, jealousy. My point is that if we are talking about ideal womens body (what does that even mean? are we talking healthy? sexy? tall? Athletic?) and someone responded with a picture of a woman and she replies with:
p.s. the "woman" in the blue bathing suit looks like she pissed her pants. some day she will have to wear panty liners for bladder control, how sexy :?: will she be then?
I see what I see...
AGAIN, my point is that many women are so competitive with each other! most men dont care what the next guy looks like. This is just a theory/stereotype but: Why don't more men suffer from these diseases? men arent as jealous of each other.
Instead of trying to understand what she means & feels, you are simply projecting your ideas about jealousy and competition onto her and all women and then complaining that women are jealous and competitive! I don't think there's any point in even having this conversation if your objective is to stereotype and judge.
I think the male/female ratio of eating disorders and body image issues is directly proportionate to the male/female ratio of media images and social norms that portray them as sexual objects, that uphold certain body types as ideal, that send the message that your body is not good enough, etc.
I am also curious what how the rate of eating disorders like anorexia compares to the rate of obesity. I mean sure some people see a super skinny, or even super fit person in a magazine and decide they are going to go on an unhealthy diet where they only eat celery and drink water. But how many people just see a person who is in better shape then them in a magazine and decide they are going to make healthier choices in life, stop eating so many big macs and maybe get a bit of exercise. I mean sure it is totally possibly that if you stopped showing skinny models in magazines you might decrease the number of people with anorexia, but you also might actually increase the number of people who are morbidly obese.
I believe there's data to dispute your theory, but I'll have to look for it later.
But you yourself posted that "- 42% of elementary school students between the 1st and 3rd grades want to be thinner.". And if something like one third of all children are overweight how much crossover there is between the actual overweight kids and the ones who want to be thinner? And if a kid actually is overweight, which is also a health problem, is it really a bad thing that they want to lose weight?
Skinny models in magazines and such ads are purposefully designed to make women (and, to a lesser extent, men) hate their bodies so they'll buy the product being sold to make themselves more desirable. And it works - Americans spend over $50 BILLION just on diet products each year (that doesn't even include the "beauty" industry!). It is the love & respect of oneself and one's body that inspires people to care for their bodies in healthy ways - not the ad-inspired self-loathing. Do we want to teach our children to be healthy or to be skinny? If portrayal of unnaturally thin bodies as the ideal was an effective and healthy method of getting people to lose weight, wouldn't doctors and public health officials across the country be supporting it?
It's important to note, by the way, that the rate of obesity has risen as the "ideal" body weight has decreased.
There's a huge difference between feeling the need to lose weight, which inspires dieting, and wanting to be healthy, which inspires living healthy lifestyles in general. Here's some info about dieting:
- 25% of Americans men and 45% of American women are on a diet on any given day.
- More than 80% of 4th grade girls have been on a fad diet.
- 95% of diets fail.
- Two thirds of dieters regain the weight within one year and virtually all regain it within five years.
- 35% of occasional dieters progress into pathological dieting.
- Dieting is a $50 billion per year industry just in the United States.
Also, weight is only one aspect of this whole subject. These ads also inspire surgically-altered breasts, cancer-inducing tanning sessions, bleached and dyed hair, perfectly-manicured hands and feet, expensive designer clothes, all manners of hair removal, "age-defying" cosmetics, foot-damaging shoes, etc., etc. It really isn't at all about being a healthy weight.
yes she is, if ya don't believe me take a look at the one you're with
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
to be 100% fair, studies have shown that both men AND women who are heavier get passed over in comparison to their thinner counterparts.
Yeah, I know. I didn't meant to suggest otherwise. It's just that this thread seems to be about women (which I think is appropriate since 90% of eating disorders occur in women), so that's what I'm talking about.
someone earlier, i think dan, mentioned how men's mags have pics of sexy women on the covers, and women's mags have pics of the same women. food for thought eh? the mental dynamics of men and women are quite different in that regard, overall.
I'm not sure what you mean by "mental dynamics".
just about everything within a society is based on a perceived and accepted cultural norm; whether murder is acceptable or not...or whether a woman shaves her legs or not. (and no, i am not comparing the 2....
:shock:
however, i also must admit, that photo in post 2, she looks damn healthy to me, BMI or not. do you actually know she weighs 110 pounds? i have no idea. either way, she has a really nice amount of muscle on her, sure sign of good health. and, amazingly, i DO know women around her size and just as large-breasted...so while not the norm, not impossible. the tan, yea...agree 100% with you on tho. thing is tho, if she's a surfer, even with consistent use of a sunblock, she'd probably still get tan.
Yes, she's 5' 8" and weighs 110 pounds. I looked it up. (You didn't think I'd post a statistic without looking it up, did you? :geek: )
I don't believe I said SHE wasn't healthy or HER breasts weren't natural. (But she'd have to always surf naked to get a tan like that.) My point was that this body image is not natural for the vast majority of the women in the world, and therefore shouldn't be held up as the standard against which to measure other women's bodies or the goal women should attempt to reach.
Women: Any size, shape, color, or flavor here. I draw the line at age... I like to keep it legal
Now onto the subject of who is "beautiful"...
Believe it or not, and I know this to be true of most of my friends-- a pretty and distinguishable face, no matter the body, is far more likely to earn a girl the title of "beautiful" over her body. Butterfaces are NEVER referred to as beautiful. Every other adjective will inevitably be used to describe a girl with a nice body (whatever THAT IS to the onlooker), but "beautiful" always starts with a girl's face. Fellas: back me up, or refute me. Ladies: have you ever noticed this assertion from any of your guy friends?
Back to the ideal body debate-- Bodies like Marissa Miller's are fairly "new" in the grand scheme of things (500 thousand years of humanity)-- kind of like the idea of women keeping things a bit more trim below the belt line, which apparently didn't start happening till sometime after 1990. Could it not be the bright-and-shiny-newness of it all that makes this current trend towards model bodies attractive? It sure is not easy to look like Marissa Miller-- just like it's not easy to hit like A-Rod. These sort of things garner attention whether they are good for the person getting the attention or for society as a whole. And yes, "the media" is always at fault, yet everyone keeps patronizing it. Unlike insurance, oil, banking, GMO food, obscene "defense" spending, it has not been actually FORCED on the populous yet. True, "the media" is everywhere, but so are other pests-- like mosquitos, just swat this bullshit away if you don't like it. Teach your kids to do the same.
If the media is the problem, just add them to the list of umpteen million things to which they perpetuate the problem further. Let's turn off our TVs, and boycott the newspapers and magazines for a month, and we'll see who's still arguing at the end of the day.
I have to wonder what percentage of the kids who wish they were thinner, wish so because they're obese.
I haven't seen the appropriate kind of study to really answer that question, so this data will have to do (unless you have something better):
- The prevalence of obesity among children aged 6 to 11 years increased from 6.5% in 1980 to 19.6% in 2008. (CDC)
- The prevalence of obesity among adolescents aged 12 to 19 years increased from 5.0% to 18.1%. (CDC)
- 42% of 1st-3rd grade girls want to be thinner (Collins, 1991).
- 81% of 10 year olds are afraid of being fat (Mellin et al., 1991).
- 51% of 9 and 10 year old girl feel better about themselves if they are on a diet (Mellin et al., 1991).
- In a 2003 review of the literature, Hoek and van Hoeken found 40% of newly identified cases of anorexia are in girls 15-19 years old.
- It is estimated that currently 11% of high school students may have a diagnosable eating disorder.
- Anorexia is the 3rd most common chronic illness among adolescents
- 95% of those who have eating disorders are between the ages of 12 and 25
- 50% of girls between the ages of 11 and 13 see themselves as overweight
- 80% of 13-year-olds have attempted to lose weight
- In 1970 the average age of a girl who started dieting was 14; by 1990 the average dieting age fell to 8.
- Young girls are more afraid of becoming fat than they are of nuclear war, cancer, or losing their parents.
- 47% of girls in 5th-12th grade reported wanting to lose weight because of magazine pictures[2].
- 69% of girls in 5th-12th grade reported that magazine pictures influenced their idea of a perfect body shape[3].
- In a survey of girls 9 and 10 years old, 40% have tried to lose weight, according to an ongoing study funded by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.
- In a study on fifth graders, 10 year old girls and boys told researchers they were dissatisfied with their own bodies after watching a music video by Britney Spears or a clip from the TV show "Friends".
- A 1996 study found that the amount of time an adolescent watches soaps, movies and music videos is associated with their degree of body dissatisfaction and desire to be thin.
- One study reports that at age thirteen, 53% of American girls are "unhappy with their bodies." This grows to 78% by the time girls reach seventeen.
- Fifteen percent of young women have substantially disordered eating attitudes and behaviors.
- Eating disorders usually start in the teens but may begin as early as age 8.
Sorry to be so disorganized with my data presentation, but I'm tired so I'm just copying whatever childhood data I have on hand.
Anyway, based on this information, it seems clear to me that MANY more children are concerned about their body image than are actually fat, and that their ideas about what their body image is and what it should be are not generally based on realistic health concerns.
Previewing my post, I saw your last couple of posts....what do YOU think would be helpful in solving the problem? no one expressing what they find attractive? The media is a basically a mirror of societal norms, no?
I think our society is structured so as to send the message to people - primarily girls and women - that they are meant to be sexual objects and their bodies are not good enough. I think this message is impossible to ignore. I think it serves a huge capitalist/corporate interest. And I think the status quo is upheld by everyone who participates in it, whether intentionally or not.
I think, as individuals, we ALL have to take responsibility for our role in this and actively work to change the status quo. I think this means demanding more realistic images from the media. I think it means not throwing our money into all the industries - diet, cosmetics, magazine, clothes, etc. - which prey on us and our children for their own profit. I think it means changing the cultural norms to more realistic and healthy body ideals - and DEMONSTRATING respect for ALL body types and for people regardless of their bodies. I think everyone has a responsibility to understand the issues and their role in solving the problem. And, regarding the role of men, I think they have a LOT of power to create this change and should own it and be committed to it instead of (wittingly or unwittingly) perpetuating the problem.
I never said that those types of posts don't contribute to the problem. I just don't see how men making comments about a beautiful woman should give other women self esteem issues. I do see why posts like this play a role in the problem, but I don't understand it.
These statements seem to contradict each other. :?
I am merely saying that if I see abeautiful woman walking down the street and say to my friend, "Hey, she's beautiful", how is that any different from posting a picture of a beautiful woman? if it's my human nature to be attracted to someone like Marissa Miller, should I keep my mouth shut, never say anything?
Let me ask you this: If your idea of beauty was tall, blonde, blue-eyed, giant breasts, and unnaturally thin, and your daughter was short, brunette, brown-eyed, small-breasted (or likely to be when she got them), and heavy, would you tell her "SHE'S beautiful!" every single time you saw a woman who looked like Marissa Miller and never when you saw a woman who looked like your daughter? Would you want your daughter's elementary school to hold up this picture and tell your daughter that this is what beauty and desirability look like? Would you like the boys in her life to do that?
I think many people (men and women) speak out of both sides of their mouths when they tell their daughters to disregard others' ideals of beauty but then reinforce the stereotypes and write it off as human nature or personal preference.
Also, as someone else has already pointed out, it is not human nature to think Marissa Miller has the perfect body. People learn to be attracted to this through socialization and then go on to perpetuate that socialization in others. If we lived in the times of Marilyn Monroe or later, very few men - and certainly not society and media as a whole - would have thought Marissa Miller's body was ideal.
I wasnt clear in my point. it's actually simpler than what I said. I see why it is a problem to other people, but I cannot understand it personally because I cant associate with it because i've never been one to compare myself to anyone.
And I never said I would perpetuate thes things like gawking over a woman. That point was theoretical - i dont' do that. I just said I dont think there's anything wrong iwith saying something is beautiful. If I see a beautiful sunset, I might comment i might not. I will raise my daughter or son to appreciate beauty and not compare themselvesto others, but to just be comfortable in their own skin and know that they are beautiful inside and out.
Instead of trying to understand what she means & feels, you are simply projecting your ideas about jealousy and competition onto her and all women and then complaining that women are jealous and competitive! I don't think there's any point in even having this conversation if your objective is to stereotype and judge.
I think the male/female ratio of eating disorders and body image issues is directly proportionate to the male/female ratio of media images and social norms that portray them as sexual objects, that uphold certain body types as ideal, that send the message that your body is not good enough, etc.
You are so far off on this one it’s not even funny. I tried to understand what she meant and felt. And I thought I was getting it until she posted this:
Maybe the OP was a video about suicide.
Did anyone ever consider that? NO.
It's always dicks, nuts and butt jokes on this serious forum.
Frankly I dislike posting in here because someone always comes along and fucks up your point.
Blow your brains out on here and I will be glad to serve you back what you give. Women are raped in so many ways. and unless you have a vagina. shut the hell up.
Except for SCB, this thread did exactly what i knew it would do. NOthing useful. Just opposition to a point very much missed.
p.s. the "woman" in the blue bathing suit looks like she pissed her pants. some day she will have to wear panty liners for bladder control, how sexy :?: will she be then?
I feel she’s acting close minded. Then she used childish remarks that came across as jealous. Not to mention how she twisted blackredyellows words around and told him that suicide will find him for ignoring it!!! At that point, I gave up trying to understand her.
In addition, you seem to be getting defensive because you are saying that I’m complaining about it. Wrong. Who’s judging who here?I’m merely bringing up a point. I could care less…the competition thing is 100% accurate. Maybe I just wasn’t articulate enough to convey my point – it’s as simple as this stereotype (I know sterotypes are bad, but just trying to make a point): women are more competitive with each other than men when it comes to beauty.
I don’t stereotype, I can identify when someone falls under a stereotype. And you might look back and see that she deleted all her comments. Too bad for her that al lthose comments are preserved in the quotes where people were so flabbergasted at her saying “shut the hell up if you don’t have a vagina. WTF?!
I honestly think this is an interesting debate. And we will seem to go in circles. What % of the population suffers from anorexia? What % is obese? What arre the REAL problems? Maybe it’s that the average American watches 4 hrs of tv a night? (I made that # up, but I’ll bet it is close)
Read a book called Ishamel....apparently no one has, even though Ed recommended it.
That is why this thread is so full of puss.
We are assumng our tiny view of the world is the way it's suppose to be.
if we are all cavemen again, that woman would be hairy as hell and i'd expect nothing but ridicule towards her from the present time.
When the shit does hit the fan and our culture collapes, Daniel Quinn will cry a tear because he warned us but
his wisdom about culture will have fallen on deaf ears.
I have read Ismael, and it was an excellent book. I wish a lot of things were like the caveman days. There was no msg, fake sugar, preservatives, or razors! I'll bet ALL people were healthier than many people today...slim and athletic too. just guessing.
honestly though, I dont think my tiny view of the world is the way things are supposed to be. I wish a lot of things were different. I don't participate in the purchase of excessive beauty products (just razors, shampoo, soap, deodorant), and I dont buy the mags or watch the tube.
I don't believe I said SHE wasn't healthy or HER breasts weren't natural. (But she'd have to always surf naked to get a tan like that.) My point was that this body image is not natural for the vast majority of the women in the world, and therefore shouldn't be held up as the standard against which to measure other women's bodies or the goal women should attempt to reach.
What I also find perplexing is that ONE person posted a picture, and suddenly Marissa Miller is being discussed as the standard. I think if we are realistic and have common sense, we will know that this is not the standard. Obviously, the majority of people you see on the street are not ideal either since a huge % is overweight. The fact of the matter is -- a large % of us could use some altering to our lifestyles for health reasons.
By the way, I never even got a chance to personally answer the original question. I do feel like I found the ideal body when I met my girlfriend. She treats it like a temple and she ALWAYS feels good. She does yoga and exercises regularly. She eats an extremely well balanced diet and VERY rarely eats sweets. She always has energy and loves the outdoors. Is she skinny? Yes. Her body is beautiful. Now, granted I know that some people might have the exact same lifestyle and not be skinny, but as long as they are healthy and feel great, then they have the ideal body.
I think our society is structured so as to send the message to people - primarily girls and women - that they are meant to be sexual objects and their bodies are not good enough. I think this message is impossible to ignore. I think it serves a huge capitalist/corporate interest. And I think the status quo is upheld by everyone who participates in it, whether intentionally or not.
I think, as individuals, we ALL have to take responsibility for our role in this and actively work to change the status quo. I think this means demanding more realistic images from the media. I think it means not throwing our money into all the industries - diet, cosmetics, magazine, clothes, etc. - which prey on us and our children for their own profit. I think it means changing the cultural norms to more realistic and healthy body ideals - and DEMONSTRATING respect for ALL body types and for people regardless of their bodies. I think everyone has a responsibility to understand the issues and their role in solving the problem. And, regarding the role of men, I think they have a LOT of power to create this change and should own it and be committed to it instead of (wittingly or unwittingly) perpetuating the problem.
The funny thing is, I agree with you, and I don’t see those things as impossible to ignore either. Sadly, because of $$$, I don’t see it going away though. I do see them as objects of adversity for our children to overcome. I think one of the most difficult things besides making sure our kids are confident and appreciative of all body types, is making sure our kids stay healthy by not letting them watch too much TV, have tons of ice cream, candy bars, sodas, and all the other shit that seems to be forced on them.
Read a book called Ishamel....apparently no one has, even though Ed recommended it.
That is why this thread is so full of puss.
We are assumng our tiny view of the world is the way it's suppose to be.
if we are all cavemen again, that woman would be hairy as hell and i'd expect nothing but ridicule towards her from the present time.
When the shit does hit the fan and our culture collapes, Daniel Quinn will cry a tear because he warned us but
his wisdom about culture will have fallen on deaf ears.
more assumptions...
I've read it, and really enjoyed it and it was thought provoking. I like The Story of B a little better, but Ishamel gives you a different point of view on the world.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
The Ideal Woman's Body.....I'm guessing something for the spank bank right ? so howa bout....Pamala Anderson's body ? or Carmen Electra's body ?
ain't that a pare to ponder. coulden't help it..nobody else said anything.
The Ideal Woman's Body.....I'm guessing something for the spank bank right ? so howa bout....Pamala Anderson's body ? or Carmen Electra's body ?
ain't that a pare to ponder. coulden't help it..nobody else said anything.
Godfather.
You do not have a vagina....
Shut the HELL UP!!!!!!
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
The Ideal Woman's Body.....I'm guessing something for the spank bank right ? so howa bout....Pamala Anderson's body ? or Carmen Electra's body ?
ain't that a pare to ponder. coulden't help it..nobody else said anything.
Godfather.
You do not have a vagina....
Shut the HELL UP!!!!!!
The Ideal Woman's Body.....I'm guessing something for the spank bank right ? so howa bout....Pamala Anderson's body ? or Carmen Electra's body ?
ain't that a pare to ponder. coulden't help it..nobody else said anything.
Godfather.
You do not have a vagina....
Shut the HELL UP!!!!!!
You don't know that...quit ASSuming!!!!!
You have a good point...
I do not know Godfather....
But I dont have a vagina....So I guess I will shut the hell up......
Better yet, for the people in this thread who DO have vaginas.....
What will it take for YOU to shut the hell up???? heheheheheheheh
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Read a book called Ishamel....apparently no one has, even though Ed recommended it.
That is why this thread is so full of puss.
We are assumng our tiny view of the world is the way it's suppose to be.
if we are all cavemen again, that woman would be hairy as hell and i'd expect nothing but ridicule towards her from the present time.
When the shit does hit the fan and our culture collapes, Daniel Quinn will cry a tear because he warned us but
his wisdom about culture will have fallen on deaf ears.
i've read it.
wasn't all that revolutionary thinking in my mind, at all, really.
his ideas are not new, he just presented them in a very novel way.
that said....all around the world, there are cultures with vastly different views on beauty than our own, and so it goes. it is a part of what makes each culture a bit different. it also is not necessarily a bad thing. it can be, but it does not have to be.
seriously scb, i am a bit disappointed. taking apart the post, and a wee bit out of context...you usually don't do that.
firstly, the fact that you mentioned only women and not men...well it shows a skewed view, b/c not everyone may know that, so you only presented it as a heavy woman's issue, rather than both, thus why i pointed it out.
mental dynamics....men and women seem to think differently.
as to your :shock: face...seriously. if you don't get it. fine. cultural norms are defined by their culture. what is deemed acceptable, desirable, appropriate....whether ideals of beauty or laws for beahavior...ALL are based on the overall desires of the culture they stem from. these things also change in time, as we see throughout history. that was my point.
especially since you left out the following within the quote:
"being heavier and untanned used to be the 'ideal'...since it signified you had plenty to eat and did not have to work out in the sun. nowadays, being thin and tanned (tho that is changing) is the ideal....b/c it is seen as having the leisure time and $$$ to spend working out and spending time in the sun. so all are a reflection on MONEY and wealth, and the precieved, and visible, displays of such wealth."
which further illustrated the cultural norm point i was making.
also, women with unshaven legs are very much accepted, right now, in many parts of the world...even within the western world. austria for example. in the states, not so much. one is not right or wrong, just ideas of 'beauty'...and non are static forever. if one chooses to buck the trend, good for them if it makes them happy, but one should not be offended if one chooses to buck said cultural, present ideals.
as to beauty, well......i don't think 'average' is every held up as an 'ideal' for beauty. has it ever? if beauty was so run-of-the-mill, it wouldn't be so admired, no? kinda like genius in a way. if it was so attainable and most had it...we wouldn't put it on a pedestal to admire. i agree there is WAY too much focus on externals and on some unattainables, no denying that...i also just don't blame the media for all the issues out there, and certainly not all on men either. that's all.
to be 100% fair, studies have shown that both men AND women who are heavier get passed over in comparison to their thinner counterparts.
Yeah, I know. I didn't meant to suggest otherwise. It's just that this thread seems to be about women (which I think is appropriate since 90% of eating disorders occur in women), so that's what I'm talking about.
someone earlier, i think dan, mentioned how men's mags have pics of sexy women on the covers, and women's mags have pics of the same women. food for thought eh? the mental dynamics of men and women are quite different in that regard, overall.
I'm not sure what you mean by "mental dynamics".
just about everything within a society is based on a perceived and accepted cultural norm; whether murder is acceptable or not...or whether a woman shaves her legs or not. (and no, i am not comparing the 2....
:shock:
however, i also must admit, that photo in post 2, she looks damn healthy to me, BMI or not. do you actually know she weighs 110 pounds? i have no idea. either way, she has a really nice amount of muscle on her, sure sign of good health. and, amazingly, i DO know women around her size and just as large-breasted...so while not the norm, not impossible. the tan, yea...agree 100% with you on tho. thing is tho, if she's a surfer, even with consistent use of a sunblock, she'd probably still get tan.
Yes, she's 5' 8" and weighs 110 pounds. I looked it up. (You didn't think I'd post a statistic without looking it up, did you? :geek: )
I don't believe I said SHE wasn't healthy or HER breasts weren't natural. (But she'd have to always surf naked to get a tan like that.) My point was that this body image is not natural for the vast majority of the women in the world, and therefore shouldn't be held up as the standard against which to measure other women's bodies or the goal women should attempt to reach.
Women: Any size, shape, color, or flavor here. I draw the line at age... I like to keep it legal
Now onto the subject of who is "beautiful"...
Believe it or not, and I know this to be true of most of my friends-- a pretty and distinguishable face, no matter the body, is far more likely to earn a girl the title of "beautiful" over her body. Butterfaces are NEVER referred to as beautiful. Every other adjective will inevitably be used to describe a girl with a nice body (whatever THAT IS to the onlooker), but "beautiful" always starts with a girl's face. Fellas: back me up, or refute me. Ladies: have you ever noticed this assertion from any of your guy friends?
Back to the ideal body debate-- Bodies like Marissa Miller's are fairly "new" in the grand scheme of things (500 thousand years of humanity)-- kind of like the idea of women keeping things a bit more trim below the belt line, which apparently didn't start happening till sometime after 1990. Could it not be the bright-and-shiny-newness of it all that makes this current trend towards model bodies attractive? It sure is not easy to look like Marissa Miller-- just like it's not easy to hit like A-Rod. These sort of things garner attention whether they are good for the person getting the attention or for society as a whole. And yes, "the media" is always at fault, yet everyone keeps patronizing it. Unlike insurance, oil, banking, GMO food, obscene "defense" spending, it has not been actually FORCED on the populous yet. True, "the media" is everywhere, but so are other pests-- like mosquitos, just swat this bullshit away if you don't like it. Teach your kids to do the same.
If the media is the problem, just add them to the list of umpteen million things to which they perpetuate the problem further. Let's turn off our TVs, and boycott the newspapers and magazines for a month, and we'll see who's still arguing at the end of the day.
excellent post.
i'm not a guy, but gotta agree.
and hey, when it comes to beautiful faces...sure one can add make-up, but really, unless undergoing surgery, not much you can do about it, eh? let's face it, there ARE ideals of beauty. they do change, sometimes dramatically, throughout human history, but they have always existed. some are based on biological imperatives, even subconsciously, just like all animals size each other up when choosing an ideal mate.
beauty, talent, genius...none are easy to garner, thus why they are all held up and admired. we have issues with girls making themselves ill with anorexia, and we also have a major obesity problem...so i personally don't think the media can be blamed for ALL things, tho you bet, plays a major role. i just don't know...i was bombarded with the media as a teen, maybe not as much as today, but while sure, it definitely influenced my ideas of beauty i am sure...it also didn't seem to affect how i felt about myself. my family and my own mind did the bulk of that. i also take no issue whatsoever with my husband admiring many of the very beautiful women in the world, whether out on the street or in magazines, movies, internet, whatever. body image and self confidence don't all have to quake in fear of such things.
The Ideal Woman's Body.....I'm guessing something for the spank bank right ? so howa bout....Pamala Anderson's body ? or Carmen Electra's body ?
ain't that a pare to ponder. coulden't help it..nobody else said anything.
Godfather.
You do not have a vagina....
Shut the HELL UP!!!!!!
Comments
holy cow... i never called anyone who committed suicide terrible... and yes, suicide has found me a couple of times in my life, but thanks for wishing it on me again.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
WOW! now you just have to be kidding here!?
I think blackredyellow made perfect sense in what he said. Just to clarify in case you werent kidding, I dont think he was calling anyone terrible, he was merely stating that any situation that leads to suicide is not a good thing. Gita, I honestly can't believe the stuff you type. :shock:
to be 100% fair, studies have shown that both men AND women who are heavier get passed over in comparison to their thinner counterparts. i've never seen it directed to only women, but both genders.
i would never deny the over-arcing reach and influence of the media....and if i am to lay 'blame' i put it on both men AND women.
someone earlier, i think dan, mentioned how men's mags have pics of sexy women on the covers, and women's mags have pics of the same women. food for thought eh? the mental dynamics of men and women are quite different in that regard, overall.
cultural norms....whether for behavior or looks or anything else....VERY strong influence. just about everything within a society is based on a perceived and accepted cultural norm; whether murder is acceptable or not...or whether a woman shaves her legs or not. (and no, i am not comparing the 2....just pointing out societies role in determining such things). being heavier and untanned used to be the 'ideal'...since it signified you had plenty to eat and did not have to work out in the sun. nowadays, being thin and tanned (tho that is changing) is the ideal....b/c it is seen as having the leisure time and $$$ to spend working out and spending time in the sun. so all are a reflection on MONEY and wealth, and the precieved, and visible, displays of such wealth.
dan's post (out of breath) and drowned out's pretty spot on for me, tho of course i agree with much that you say scb. however, i also must admit, that photo in post 2, she looks damn healthy to me, BMI or not. do you actually know she weighs 110 pounds? i have no idea. either way, she has a really nice amount of muscle on her, sure sign of good health. and, amazingly, i DO know women around her size and just as large-breasted...so while not the norm, not impossible. the tan, yea...agree 100% with you on tho. thing is tho, if she's a surfer, even with consistent use of a sunblock, she'd probably still get tan.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
however, as a woman, i just think it's FAR too simplistic to lay blame on the media, or 'most men'...for our cultural ideals. does the media play a very large role? you bet. however, if it really were such an easy blame-game, i think we'd have rectified it by now, or damn close. even in the media, there is a lot of positive messages out there and a lot of positive imagery. also make note of different cultural perspectives, as in african american and hispanic women are more apt to appreciate their curvy bodies and accept them, so the media is not the end-all, be-all. i also think of the dove campaign, using real women in their ads....and many mags highlighting real women as arbiters of beauty, etc. so like most things, it's not all evil.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
2. :roll: man....I didn't dismiss any dissenting opinions. I agreed with one. The woman YOU are defending, however, insulted men a few times in this thread, and dismissed their opinions. You also dismiss my (actually JP's) point ("you need to lay off"), then comment on how WOMEN try to make intelligent points and we dismiss them.....pot to kettle much? The icing on the cake is following it up with a facetious question meant to infer that we're all shallow. like c'mon.
Me, personally....I will give the same two shits about her that I do now. She's a human being. I wish her no harm. on a personal level, I don't feel any closer to her than any other woman I see on the street. If she were old and unattractive, I might not want to have sex with her anymore, but that's more because that desire was based 100% on attraction, NOT on anything else...if I knew and loved her, the attraction would run much deeper, obviously.
I don't understand what you think would be the 'proper' ideal here. Should everyone be deprogrammed, blind, have no sense of touch or smell, and just walk around hoping the right personality will one day say hi? That's why these free-will discussions are thought-provoking, but entirely impractical in application. Unless we're going to re-program the whole world...all we can do is hope to gain some understanding, but it won't change much in the real world. JP defended the jealousy comments concisely, I'll leave it at that.
3. Read my post again. I'm the last person to suggest the media does not influence people. I just think it's not as big a role as some are suggesting. But ya, TWICE I mention that media plays a role. You just like arguing with me, admit it
These statements seem to contradict each other. :?
Let me ask you this: If your idea of beauty was tall, blonde, blue-eyed, giant breasts, and unnaturally thin, and your daughter was short, brunette, brown-eyed, small-breasted (or likely to be when she got them), and heavy, would you tell her "SHE'S beautiful!" every single time you saw a woman who looked like Marissa Miller and never when you saw a woman who looked like your daughter? Would you want your daughter's elementary school to hold up this picture and tell your daughter that this is what beauty and desirability look like? Would you like the boys in her life to do that?
I think many people (men and women) speak out of both sides of their mouths when they tell their daughters to disregard others' ideals of beauty but then reinforce the stereotypes and write it off as human nature or personal preference.
Also, as someone else has already pointed out, it is not human nature to think Marissa Miller has the perfect body. People learn to be attracted to this through socialization and then go on to perpetuate that socialization in others. If we lived in the times of Marilyn Monroe or later, very few men - and certainly not society and media as a whole - would have thought Marissa Miller's body was ideal.
Instead of trying to understand what she means & feels, you are simply projecting your ideas about jealousy and competition onto her and all women and then complaining that women are jealous and competitive! I don't think there's any point in even having this conversation if your objective is to stereotype and judge.
I think the male/female ratio of eating disorders and body image issues is directly proportionate to the male/female ratio of media images and social norms that portray them as sexual objects, that uphold certain body types as ideal, that send the message that your body is not good enough, etc.
Skinny models in magazines and such ads are purposefully designed to make women (and, to a lesser extent, men) hate their bodies so they'll buy the product being sold to make themselves more desirable. And it works - Americans spend over $50 BILLION just on diet products each year (that doesn't even include the "beauty" industry!). It is the love & respect of oneself and one's body that inspires people to care for their bodies in healthy ways - not the ad-inspired self-loathing. Do we want to teach our children to be healthy or to be skinny? If portrayal of unnaturally thin bodies as the ideal was an effective and healthy method of getting people to lose weight, wouldn't doctors and public health officials across the country be supporting it?
It's important to note, by the way, that the rate of obesity has risen as the "ideal" body weight has decreased.
There's a huge difference between feeling the need to lose weight, which inspires dieting, and wanting to be healthy, which inspires living healthy lifestyles in general. Here's some info about dieting:
- 25% of Americans men and 45% of American women are on a diet on any given day.
- More than 80% of 4th grade girls have been on a fad diet.
- 95% of diets fail.
- Two thirds of dieters regain the weight within one year and virtually all regain it within five years.
- 35% of occasional dieters progress into pathological dieting.
- Dieting is a $50 billion per year industry just in the United States.
Also, weight is only one aspect of this whole subject. These ads also inspire surgically-altered breasts, cancer-inducing tanning sessions, bleached and dyed hair, perfectly-manicured hands and feet, expensive designer clothes, all manners of hair removal, "age-defying" cosmetics, foot-damaging shoes, etc., etc. It really isn't at all about being a healthy weight.
yes she is, if ya don't believe me take a look at the one you're with
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Yeah, I know. I didn't meant to suggest otherwise. It's just that this thread seems to be about women (which I think is appropriate since 90% of eating disorders occur in women), so that's what I'm talking about.
I'm not sure what you mean by "mental dynamics".
:shock:
Yes, she's 5' 8" and weighs 110 pounds. I looked it up. (You didn't think I'd post a statistic without looking it up, did you?
I don't believe I said SHE wasn't healthy or HER breasts weren't natural. (But she'd have to always surf naked to get a tan like that.) My point was that this body image is not natural for the vast majority of the women in the world, and therefore shouldn't be held up as the standard against which to measure other women's bodies or the goal women should attempt to reach.
Now onto the subject of who is "beautiful"...
Believe it or not, and I know this to be true of most of my friends-- a pretty and distinguishable face, no matter the body, is far more likely to earn a girl the title of "beautiful" over her body. Butterfaces are NEVER referred to as beautiful. Every other adjective will inevitably be used to describe a girl with a nice body (whatever THAT IS to the onlooker), but "beautiful" always starts with a girl's face. Fellas: back me up, or refute me. Ladies: have you ever noticed this assertion from any of your guy friends?
Back to the ideal body debate-- Bodies like Marissa Miller's are fairly "new" in the grand scheme of things (500 thousand years of humanity)-- kind of like the idea of women keeping things a bit more trim below the belt line, which apparently didn't start happening till sometime after 1990. Could it not be the bright-and-shiny-newness of it all that makes this current trend towards model bodies attractive? It sure is not easy to look like Marissa Miller-- just like it's not easy to hit like A-Rod. These sort of things garner attention whether they are good for the person getting the attention or for society as a whole. And yes, "the media" is always at fault, yet everyone keeps patronizing it. Unlike insurance, oil, banking, GMO food, obscene "defense" spending, it has not been actually FORCED on the populous yet. True, "the media" is everywhere, but so are other pests-- like mosquitos, just swat this bullshit away if you don't like it. Teach your kids to do the same.
If the media is the problem, just add them to the list of umpteen million things to which they perpetuate the problem further. Let's turn off our TVs, and boycott the newspapers and magazines for a month, and we'll see who's still arguing at the end of the day.
I haven't seen the appropriate kind of study to really answer that question, so this data will have to do (unless you have something better):
- The prevalence of obesity among children aged 6 to 11 years increased from 6.5% in 1980 to 19.6% in 2008. (CDC)
- The prevalence of obesity among adolescents aged 12 to 19 years increased from 5.0% to 18.1%. (CDC)
- 42% of 1st-3rd grade girls want to be thinner (Collins, 1991).
- 81% of 10 year olds are afraid of being fat (Mellin et al., 1991).
- 51% of 9 and 10 year old girl feel better about themselves if they are on a diet (Mellin et al., 1991).
- In a 2003 review of the literature, Hoek and van Hoeken found 40% of newly identified cases of anorexia are in girls 15-19 years old.
- It is estimated that currently 11% of high school students may have a diagnosable eating disorder.
- Anorexia is the 3rd most common chronic illness among adolescents
- 95% of those who have eating disorders are between the ages of 12 and 25
- 50% of girls between the ages of 11 and 13 see themselves as overweight
- 80% of 13-year-olds have attempted to lose weight
- In 1970 the average age of a girl who started dieting was 14; by 1990 the average dieting age fell to 8.
- Young girls are more afraid of becoming fat than they are of nuclear war, cancer, or losing their parents.
- 47% of girls in 5th-12th grade reported wanting to lose weight because of magazine pictures[2].
- 69% of girls in 5th-12th grade reported that magazine pictures influenced their idea of a perfect body shape[3].
- In a survey of girls 9 and 10 years old, 40% have tried to lose weight, according to an ongoing study funded by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.
- In a study on fifth graders, 10 year old girls and boys told researchers they were dissatisfied with their own bodies after watching a music video by Britney Spears or a clip from the TV show "Friends".
- A 1996 study found that the amount of time an adolescent watches soaps, movies and music videos is associated with their degree of body dissatisfaction and desire to be thin.
- One study reports that at age thirteen, 53% of American girls are "unhappy with their bodies." This grows to 78% by the time girls reach seventeen.
- Fifteen percent of young women have substantially disordered eating attitudes and behaviors.
- Eating disorders usually start in the teens but may begin as early as age 8.
Sorry to be so disorganized with my data presentation, but I'm tired so I'm just copying whatever childhood data I have on hand.
Anyway, based on this information, it seems clear to me that MANY more children are concerned about their body image than are actually fat, and that their ideas about what their body image is and what it should be are not generally based on realistic health concerns.
I think our society is structured so as to send the message to people - primarily girls and women - that they are meant to be sexual objects and their bodies are not good enough. I think this message is impossible to ignore. I think it serves a huge capitalist/corporate interest. And I think the status quo is upheld by everyone who participates in it, whether intentionally or not.
I think, as individuals, we ALL have to take responsibility for our role in this and actively work to change the status quo. I think this means demanding more realistic images from the media. I think it means not throwing our money into all the industries - diet, cosmetics, magazine, clothes, etc. - which prey on us and our children for their own profit. I think it means changing the cultural norms to more realistic and healthy body ideals - and DEMONSTRATING respect for ALL body types and for people regardless of their bodies. I think everyone has a responsibility to understand the issues and their role in solving the problem. And, regarding the role of men, I think they have a LOT of power to create this change and should own it and be committed to it instead of (wittingly or unwittingly) perpetuating the problem.
Does that answer your question?
And I never said I would perpetuate thes things like gawking over a woman. That point was theoretical - i dont' do that. I just said I dont think there's anything wrong iwith saying something is beautiful. If I see a beautiful sunset, I might comment i might not. I will raise my daughter or son to appreciate beauty and not compare themselvesto others, but to just be comfortable in their own skin and know that they are beautiful inside and out.
You are so far off on this one it’s not even funny. I tried to understand what she meant and felt. And I thought I was getting it until she posted this:
I feel she’s acting close minded. Then she used childish remarks that came across as jealous. Not to mention how she twisted blackredyellows words around and told him that suicide will find him for ignoring it!!! At that point, I gave up trying to understand her.
In addition, you seem to be getting defensive because you are saying that I’m complaining about it. Wrong. Who’s judging who here?I’m merely bringing up a point. I could care less…the competition thing is 100% accurate. Maybe I just wasn’t articulate enough to convey my point – it’s as simple as this stereotype (I know sterotypes are bad, but just trying to make a point): women are more competitive with each other than men when it comes to beauty.
I don’t stereotype, I can identify when someone falls under a stereotype. And you might look back and see that she deleted all her comments. Too bad for her that al lthose comments are preserved in the quotes where people were so flabbergasted at her saying “shut the hell up if you don’t have a vagina. WTF?!
I honestly think this is an interesting debate. And we will seem to go in circles. What % of the population suffers from anorexia? What % is obese? What arre the REAL problems? Maybe it’s that the average American watches 4 hrs of tv a night? (I made that # up, but I’ll bet it is close)
That is why this thread is so full of puss.
We are assumng our tiny view of the world is the way it's suppose to be.
if we are all cavemen again, that woman would be hairy as hell and i'd expect nothing but ridicule towards her from the present time.
When the shit does hit the fan and our culture collapes, Daniel Quinn will cry a tear because he warned us but
his wisdom about culture will have fallen on deaf ears.
Has anyone in this thread made any valid points from your perspective?
I have read Ismael, and it was an excellent book. I wish a lot of things were like the caveman days. There was no msg, fake sugar, preservatives, or razors! I'll bet ALL people were healthier than many people today...slim and athletic too. just guessing.
honestly though, I dont think my tiny view of the world is the way things are supposed to be. I wish a lot of things were different. I don't participate in the purchase of excessive beauty products (just razors, shampoo, soap, deodorant), and I dont buy the mags or watch the tube.
What I also find perplexing is that ONE person posted a picture, and suddenly Marissa Miller is being discussed as the standard. I think if we are realistic and have common sense, we will know that this is not the standard. Obviously, the majority of people you see on the street are not ideal either since a huge % is overweight. The fact of the matter is -- a large % of us could use some altering to our lifestyles for health reasons.
By the way, I never even got a chance to personally answer the original question. I do feel like I found the ideal body when I met my girlfriend. She treats it like a temple and she ALWAYS feels good. She does yoga and exercises regularly. She eats an extremely well balanced diet and VERY rarely eats sweets. She always has energy and loves the outdoors. Is she skinny? Yes. Her body is beautiful. Now, granted I know that some people might have the exact same lifestyle and not be skinny, but as long as they are healthy and feel great, then they have the ideal body.
Also, I like what you said here scb:
The funny thing is, I agree with you, and I don’t see those things as impossible to ignore either. Sadly, because of $$$, I don’t see it going away though. I do see them as objects of adversity for our children to overcome. I think one of the most difficult things besides making sure our kids are confident and appreciative of all body types, is making sure our kids stay healthy by not letting them watch too much TV, have tons of ice cream, candy bars, sodas, and all the other shit that seems to be forced on them.
more assumptions...
I've read it, and really enjoyed it and it was thought provoking. I like The Story of B a little better, but Ishamel gives you a different point of view on the world.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
The Ideal Woman's Body.....I'm guessing something for the spank bank right ? so howa bout....Pamala Anderson's body ? or Carmen Electra's body ?
ain't that a pare to ponder.
Godfather.
Shut the HELL UP!!!!!!
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
You don't know that...quit ASSuming!!!!!
I do not know Godfather....
But I dont have a vagina....So I guess I will shut the hell up......
Better yet, for the people in this thread who DO have vaginas.....
What will it take for YOU to shut the hell up???? heheheheheheheh
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
i've read it.
wasn't all that revolutionary thinking in my mind, at all, really.
his ideas are not new, he just presented them in a very novel way.
that said....all around the world, there are cultures with vastly different views on beauty than our own, and so it goes. it is a part of what makes each culture a bit different. it also is not necessarily a bad thing. it can be, but it does not have to be.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I might forgive your hatred of Cincy after that classic post!
firstly, the fact that you mentioned only women and not men...well it shows a skewed view, b/c not everyone may know that, so you only presented it as a heavy woman's issue, rather than both, thus why i pointed it out.
mental dynamics....men and women seem to think differently.
as to your :shock: face...seriously. if you don't get it. fine. cultural norms are defined by their culture. what is deemed acceptable, desirable, appropriate....whether ideals of beauty or laws for beahavior...ALL are based on the overall desires of the culture they stem from. these things also change in time, as we see throughout history. that was my point.
especially since you left out the following within the quote:
"being heavier and untanned used to be the 'ideal'...since it signified you had plenty to eat and did not have to work out in the sun. nowadays, being thin and tanned (tho that is changing) is the ideal....b/c it is seen as having the leisure time and $$$ to spend working out and spending time in the sun. so all are a reflection on MONEY and wealth, and the precieved, and visible, displays of such wealth."
which further illustrated the cultural norm point i was making.
also, women with unshaven legs are very much accepted, right now, in many parts of the world...even within the western world. austria for example. in the states, not so much. one is not right or wrong, just ideas of 'beauty'...and non are static forever. if one chooses to buck the trend, good for them if it makes them happy, but one should not be offended if one chooses to buck said cultural, present ideals.
as to beauty, well......i don't think 'average' is every held up as an 'ideal' for beauty. has it ever? if beauty was so run-of-the-mill, it wouldn't be so admired, no? kinda like genius in a way. if it was so attainable and most had it...we wouldn't put it on a pedestal to admire. i agree there is WAY too much focus on externals and on some unattainables, no denying that...i also just don't blame the media for all the issues out there, and certainly not all on men either. that's all.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
excellent post.
i'm not a guy, but gotta agree.
and hey, when it comes to beautiful faces...sure one can add make-up, but really, unless undergoing surgery, not much you can do about it, eh? let's face it, there ARE ideals of beauty. they do change, sometimes dramatically, throughout human history, but they have always existed. some are based on biological imperatives, even subconsciously, just like all animals size each other up when choosing an ideal mate.
beauty, talent, genius...none are easy to garner, thus why they are all held up and admired. we have issues with girls making themselves ill with anorexia, and we also have a major obesity problem...so i personally don't think the media can be blamed for ALL things, tho you bet, plays a major role. i just don't know...i was bombarded with the media as a teen, maybe not as much as today, but while sure, it definitely influenced my ideas of beauty i am sure...it also didn't seem to affect how i felt about myself. my family and my own mind did the bulk of that. i also take no issue whatsoever with my husband admiring many of the very beautiful women in the world, whether out on the street or in magazines, movies, internet, whatever. body image and self confidence don't all have to quake in fear of such things.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
LOL!!!! if I did I'd be rich
Godfather.