I'm not sure whether you mean standard as in average or standard as in ideal.
good question. This is where a lot of this thread got lost (i think)...
In the back of my mind, all along, i've been wondering if anybody realized that there is a big difference between ideal, standard, attractive, lustworthy, 'spank-bank' material :shock: , and healthy.
Personally, I think healthy is ideal, which usually results in a few of these other adjectives.
Well I just understood her comments in a completely different way. And I don't think you're really capable of knowing whether or not she is jealous or competitive.
Are the questions about % rhetorical?
I don't really care if you think i'm capabale. I thought her comments were/have been rude and way off base to many people on here. Again, she deleted them all.. is that saying anything? Who is EVER capabale of knowing what someone else is thinking here? nobody, but I can deduce from ridiculous statements like 'you don't have a vagina, shut the fuck up!' --and-- 'the woman in the bathing suit looks like she pissed her pants', that something "aint right"
Personally, I 've tried to live life seeing the good in things, and when people point out negatives in something that the majority of people see beauty in, it usually shows some sign...wehter its jealousy, humor, truth or whatever...just my opinion, and it is deduced from several other whacky out of line comments.
well, the % questions are rhetorical, but I thought they were important. I thought putting it in perspective of 'ideal' body should be more in tune with 'healthy', not what's drop dead gorgeous.
Right - NO ONE can really know what another person feels, so I don't know why you keep insisting that you do. Seriously. Why is it so important to you to insist that you know how someone else is feeling? And I believe she deleted her comments out of disgust for this conversation, not out of jealousy, competition, or being "not right".
Regarding you coming down on her for pointing out the negatives in something you and others see beauty in.... did you not get the whole point of the thread or something??? The OP clearly demonstrates that the fact that the majority of people find their ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women. And you're saying that her concern for girls and women demonstates jealousy of women?? (Is that what you're saying?)
I don't think I understand what you're saying with your last statement.
Do you see, though, how saying to a little girl that the same body type/weight is beautiful over and over and over again might give her the impression that she should fit that mold in order to be beautiful? And do you see how, if this body type is different from hers, it might make her feel like her body is not good enough?
Of course I do. Who ever said anything about picking out the same exact body type and ramming it down the throats of little girls though? This is why many peopple here have said that it is good to show kids the beauty in everything-- short, fat, tall, skinny,...and not to focus just on outer beauty as well.
Reality has demonstrated that this is what happens.
I'm not sure whether you mean standard as in average or standard as in ideal.
good question. This is where a lot of this thread got lost (i think)...
In the back of my mind, all along, i've been wondering if anybody realized that there is a big difference between ideal, standard, attractive, lustworthy, 'spank-bank' material :shock: , and healthy.
Personally, I think healthy is ideal, which usually results in a few of these other adjectives.
Well I have been using standard as synonymous with ideal, by which I mean the ultimate goal that women should strive for to be considered most attractive, lustworthy, etc. (I don't think saying, "This is what you should look like to get an A, but I'll settle for the average C in you if I have to" does much of anything to change the message that women and girls should do what they can to get an A.) And I don't believe the ideal that we portray in this society (or that many of the comments I read and hear portray) is a healthy one. And therein lies the problem. At least that's what I've meant by those terms.
Right - NO ONE can really know what another person feels, so I don't know why you keep insisting that you do. Seriously. Why is it so important to you to insist that you know how someone else is feeling? And I believe she deleted her comments out of disgust for this conversation, not out of jealousy, competition, or being "not right".
Regarding you coming down on her for pointing out the negatives in something you and others see beauty in.... did you not get the whole point of the thread or something??? The OP clearly demonstrates that the fact that the majority of people find their ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women. And you're saying that her concern for girls and women demonstates jealousy of women?? (Is that what you're saying?)
I don't think I understand what you're saying with your last statement.
I am not insisting I know what she's thinking! However, it sounds like you do! I, however, am able to identify things as however I want, an deduce things from her tone/attitude and childish comments. If she is putting comments out like that out there, especially ones that I feel, in my opinion, are inconsistent and jealous, thats my perogative. YOU can't tell me how to percieve what she says either! geesh!
You 'believe' she deleted her comments because...???? haha! talk about contradictory! wow, now you know what she's thinking. oh wait, scb and Gita are the same person.
Also, you say that the thread "CLEARLY" demostrates that "THE MAJORITY" of people find thier ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women? I disagree. The majority of those gilrs that are killing themselves are doing just that, ...killing themselves. They are often found to have psychological issues and a distorted sense of reality. I have, however, completely agreed that these images don't help the scenario.
I have NO IDEA where you get that I suggested her concern for girls showed jealousy, unless you mean that she was concerned that marissa Miller didnt know she peed her pants and she was concenred that one day she will wear panty liners and not be sexy.(?)
I think our society is structured so as to send the message to people - primarily girls and women - that they are meant to be sexual objects and their bodies are not good enough. I think this message is impossible to ignore. I think it serves a huge capitalist/corporate interest. And I think the status quo is upheld by everyone who participates in it, whether intentionally or not.
I think, as individuals, we ALL have to take responsibility for our role in this and actively work to change the status quo. I think this means demanding more realistic images from the media. I think it means not throwing our money into all the industries - diet, cosmetics, magazine, clothes, etc. - which prey on us and our children for their own profit. I think it means changing the cultural norms to more realistic and healthy body ideals - and DEMONSTRATING respect for ALL body types and for people regardless of their bodies. I think everyone has a responsibility to understand the issues and their role in solving the problem. And, regarding the role of men, I think they have a LOT of power to create this change and should own it and be committed to it instead of (wittingly or unwittingly) perpetuating the problem.
Does that answer your question?
While I do buy clothes and hygiene (cosmetic?) products, I watch VERY little tv, buy no magazines, nor do I ‘diet’, and I do my best to control or discuss my kids exposure to these things. Yet to me it sounds like you’d think I perpetuate the problem if I were to think any one body type were more attractive than another. so are we not supposed to have a preference? I understand that you loathe objectification. But until our third eyes open and we all see each other’s auras, physical appearance will be the first thing we notice in others and a big part of our impressions of others, whether right or wrong.
I see your point when it comes to sheltering children from these influences, but that is the job of the parent, and media censorship for all is not the best way to protect orphans and the kids of deadbeats…
Amongst adults, yes, people need to take ownership of their treatment of others and the power they have to change things…however, they also need to take ownership of their own self image - that’s far more crucial than anything the media can do. In regards to trends...the media changes when we do.
What message does it send (to both sexes, on both sides of this discussion) to say that we need to improve self esteem amongst women….by getting men to stop being mean? Does that not take power from the woman with the esteem issue, and hand it right to the man you’re blaming for being so integral to it?
we’re once again teetering on the verge of PCness run amok. Like...we can’t compliment the exception lest we offend the norm.
PS - I've read Ishmael too. Looks like pretty much everyone in the thread has
I am not insisting I know what she's thinking! However, it sounds like you do! I, however, am able to identify things as however I want, an deduce things from her tone/attitude and childish comments. If she is putting comments out like that out there, especially ones that I feel, in my opinion, are inconsistent and jealous, thats my perogative. YOU can't tell me how to percieve what she says either! geesh!
You 'believe' she deleted her comments because...???? haha! talk about contradictory! wow, now you know what she's thinking. oh wait, scb and Gita are the same person.
Dude, did it ever occur to you that she told me how she feels about it?? Again with your assumptions! :roll:
Also, you say that the thread "CLEARLY" demostrates that "THE MAJORITY" of people find thier ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women? I disagree. The majority of those gilrs that are killing themselves are doing just that, ...killing themselves. They are often found to have psychological issues and a distorted sense of reality. I have, however, completely agreed that these images don't help the scenario.
I think you misread my statement. When I used the word majority, I was referring to the people who think these images are beautiful and it was only because I was quoting you.
And you say girls kill themselves because they have a distorted sense of reality but you fail to acknowledge that they get this distorted sense of reality from the "ideal" of beauty that is constantly being shoved down their throats. This is a proven fact. Don't make me post more statistics. (Yes, that's a threat. )
I have NO IDEA where you get that I suggested her concern for girls showed jealousy, unless you mean that she was concerned that marissa Miller didnt know she peed her pants and she was concenred that one day she will wear panty liners and not be sexy.(?)
In defense of your position that the OP is jealous, you said, "Personally, I 've tried to live life seeing the good in things, and when people point out negatives in something that the majority of people see beauty in, it usually shows some sign...wehter its jealousy, humor, truth or whatever..." That is where I got that idea.
Dude, did it ever occur to you that she told me how she feels about it?? Again with your assumptions! :roll:
And you say girls kill themselves because they have a distorted sense of reality but you fail to acknowledge that they get this distorted sense of reality from the "ideal" of beauty that is constantly being shoved down their throats. This is a proven fact. Don't make me post more statistics. (Yes, that's a threat. )
In defense of your position that the OP is jealous, you said, "Personally, I 've tried to live life seeing the good in things, and when people point out negatives in something that the majority of people see beauty in, it usually shows some sign...wehter its jealousy, humor, truth or whatever..." That is where I got that idea.
I think you may be assuming that I was calling her jealous for the wrong reasons. I was reacting to a specific comment she made – the one where she was bashing the model. Sure you can call it an assumption, but in the end, it is what it is, and if you portray yourself a certain way you are open to everyone elses prerogatives. I call it a prerogative, you call it an assumption. :roll:
If you wanna keep pulling out the assumption card, then there’s nothing more that can be said here, because essentially this whole message board is built on assumptions. How else is anyone supposed to react to someone who says things like Gita saying, “if you ignore suicide, it will find you.” And “shut the fuck up if you don’t have a vagina??” I am actually really just surprised anyone could defend her on some of these things. :roll:
Lastly, you are “assuming” (yes, assuming, again with the assumptions) that I have failed to acknowledge that these girls who are killing themselves do so because of distorted reality being shoved down their throats. You are wrong, I have acknowledged that and reasoned that it is a problem – I’m just not lingering on it. However, that is a nasty circle that is hard to debate…is it the fault of the pictures/images/ideals, or is it the fault of the person and their inability to reason hta these girl are suffereing? (THAT is rhetorical, PLEASE, no more stats! )
While I do buy clothes and hygiene (cosmetic?) products, I watch VERY little tv, buy no magazines, nor do I ‘diet’, and I do my best to control or discuss my kids exposure to these things. Yet to me it sounds like you’d think I perpetuate the problem if I were to think any one body type were more attractive than another. so are we not supposed to have a preference? I understand that you loathe objectification. But until our third eyes open and we all see each other’s auras, physical appearance will be the first thing we notice in others and a big part of our impressions of others, whether right or wrong.
I understand that people have preferences. I just think that preferences have become institutionalized, and idealizing only a few certain preferences has negative consequences. (I don't get it. Are you suggesting that socialization doesn't exist?) I understand that physical appearance is one of the first things we notice in other people. But I also believe that as supposedly evolved beings we should be able to not have that be as big an influence on our impression of others as it seems to be in this society.
Here's an example about preferences: My preference, all other things being equal, is to be with men who have minimal body hair. But I don't judge men or discriminate against them based on their body hair. I don't make fun of men with body hair. I would never expect a man to alter his body for me or to fit social norms, etc. I don't view having body hair as not meeting the ideal or express that it doesn't. And I don't support any message men might receive from the media or the rest of society that they should have minimal body hair.
I see your point when it comes to sheltering children from these influences, but that is the job of the parent, and media censorship for all is not the best way to protect orphans and the kids of deadbeats…
I don't belive I've said anything about media censorship, so please don't put words in my mouth. I think the media should step up and be responsible themselves. And I think they're more inclined to do that if the public didn't encourage them not to. (I do think we especially need to consider negative advertising that is specifically targeted for kids though.)
Amongst adults, yes, people need to take ownership of their treatment of others and the power they have to change things…however, they also need to take ownership of their own self image - that’s far more crucial than anything the media can do.
Yes, of course people need to take ownership of their self-image as much as possible. But, again, are you denying the effects of socialization? It's very powerful - espicially when you have been specifically targeted practically since birth - and it's virtually impossible to TOTALLY overcome that - ESPECIALLY when any deviance from social norms is ridiculed by the people with whom you interact every day.
In regards to trends...the media changes when we do.
What message does it send (to both sexes, on both sides of this discussion) to say that we need to improve self esteem amongst women….by getting men to stop being mean? Does that not take power from the woman with the esteem issue, and hand it right to the man you’re blaming for being so integral to it?
Did you mean to say men are mean? Or men are men? I don't see how it could ever be bad to get anyone to stop being mean. And, while I appreciate your concern for the empowerment of women, I think you're really just deflecting men's responsibility. No, I don't believe empowering one group to make positive change in society is necessarily disempowering to another group. Everyone can step up and do their part.
we’re once again teetering on the verge of PCness run amok. Like...we can’t compliment the exception lest we offend the norm.
PS - I've read Ishmael too. Looks like pretty much everyone in the thread has
I don't think this is about PCness and no one ever said you can't compliment people.
And I believe she deleted her comments out of disgust for this conversation, not out of jealousy, competition, or being "not right".
is that why she only deleted the controversial comments and left the generic ones?
Dude - I don't even know what comments she deleted and which ones she left. She deleted the original post. Was that too contoversial for you? As far as I noticed, she deleted all her comments but then came back and commented again later. I don't even know why we're having this conversation. I'm starting to think you have a thing for her.
And I believe she deleted her comments out of disgust for this conversation, not out of jealousy, competition, or being "not right".
is that why she only deleted the controversial comments and left the generic ones?
Dude - I don't even know what comments she deleted and which ones she left. She deleted the original post. Was that too contoversial for you? As far as I noticed, she deleted all her comments but then came back and commented again later. I don't even know why we're having this conversation. I'm starting to think you have a thing for her.
my point exactly.. I did have a problem with what she said. Her comments to blackredyellow were very distasteful and she made several rude comments. I've been reading this board for years and have a very thick skin, but she says some things that are just very far from OK, things that most people wouldnt say to someone elses face.
too controversial for me? No. But i'm going to speak up when I disagree with someone.
Most interesting to me is that, yes, she specifically deleted the posts that could be considered controversial and left the generic ones. Call it an ASSUMPTION, but I'm under the impression that this would be one of those times in 'real life' where someone might be told to 'think before they speak'.
I think you may be assuming that I was calling her jealous for the wrong reasons. I was reacting to a specific comment she made – the one where she was bashing the model. Sure you can call it an assumption, but in the end, it is what it is, and if you portray yourself a certain way you are open to everyone elses prerogatives. I call it a prerogative, you call it an assumption. :roll:
If you wanna keep pulling out the assumption card, then there’s nothing more that can be said here, because essentially this whole message board is built on assumptions. How else is anyone supposed to react to someone who says things like Gita saying, “if you ignore suicide, it will find you.” And “shut the fuck up if you don’t have a vagina??” I am actually really just surprised anyone could defend her on some of these things. :roll:
Lastly, you are “assuming” (yes, assuming, again with the assumptions) that I have failed to acknowledge that these girls who are killing themselves do so because of distorted reality being shoved down their throats. You are wrong, I have acknowledged that and reasoned that it is a problem – I’m just not lingering on it. However, that is a nasty circle that is hard to debate…is it the fault of the pictures/images/ideals, or is it the fault of the person and their inability to reason hta these girl are suffereing? (THAT is rhetorical, PLEASE, no more stats! )
I reacted differently to what she said, so I don't think you can say that there's not other way to take what she said than the way you took it. My opinion is that she has been misunderstood. And I think it's stupid that this conversation has been turned so much into one about a few offhand comments of one person instead of the real issue at hand.
When I said what you failed to acknowledge, I was referring to your post - where you failed to acknowledge it. That is not an assumption. If you acknowledged it previously, I give you credit for that (which is not to say that you need my credit). I guess I've just forgotten because I'm thinking about what you're saying now. (Plus, frankly, a few of you are starting to run together.)
Regarding whose "fault" it is that girls are "suffering," I think A. You can't blame children for their "inability to reason". B. You must think ALL women lack the ability to reason, because you'd be hard-pressed to find any American woman who has not been influenced in some way by these ideals. I know you don't want any actual information, but data really does show that the media has a HUGE influence over women's self-image.
is that why she only deleted the controversial comments and left the generic ones?
Dude - I don't even know what comments she deleted and which ones she left. She deleted the original post. Was that too contoversial for you? As far as I noticed, she deleted all her comments but then came back and commented again later. I don't even know why we're having this conversation. I'm starting to think you have a thing for her.
my point exactly.. I did have a problem with what she said. Her comments to blackredyellow were very distasteful and she made several rude comments. I've been reading this board for years and have a very thick skin, but she says some things that are just very far from OK, things that most people wouldnt say to someone elses face.
too controversial for me? No. But i'm going to speak up when I disagree with someone.
Most interesting to me is that, yes, she specifically deleted the posts that could be considered controversial and left the generic ones. Call it an ASSUMPTION, but I'm under the impression that this would be one of those times in 'real life' where someone might be told to 'think before they speak'.
Can we please stop with this talking-shit-about-someone-else conversation? I don't think it's appropriate.
is that why she only deleted the controversial comments and left the generic ones?
This one's obviously not going to get answered...
Patience, Grasshopper.
(And I can't help but notice that this is another assumption.)
I gotta ask....did you just learn the work "assumption" recently? Or, do you own a stake in it and get paid everytime you type it or a variation of it? Is it your word of the month on your calendar? I don't think I've seen more than 1 of your posts without it.
Then again, I haven't seen ALL your posts and I'm just ASSUMING that they are all like the ones here.
I think you may be assuming that I was calling her jealous for the wrong reasons. I was reacting to a specific comment she made – the one where she was bashing the model. Sure you can call it an assumption, but in the end, it is what it is, and if you portray yourself a certain way you are open to everyone elses prerogatives. I call it a prerogative, you call it an assumption. :roll:
If you wanna keep pulling out the assumption card, then there’s nothing more that can be said here, because essentially this whole message board is built on assumptions. How else is anyone supposed to react to someone who says things like Gita saying, “if you ignore suicide, it will find you.” And “shut the fuck up if you don’t have a vagina??” I am actually really just surprised anyone could defend her on some of these things. :roll:
Lastly, you are “assuming” (yes, assuming, again with the assumptions) that I have failed to acknowledge that these girls who are killing themselves do so because of distorted reality being shoved down their throats. You are wrong, I have acknowledged that and reasoned that it is a problem – I’m just not lingering on it. However, that is a nasty circle that is hard to debate…is it the fault of the pictures/images/ideals, or is it the fault of the person and their inability to reason hta these girl are suffereing? (THAT is rhetorical, PLEASE, no more stats! )
I reacted differently to what she said, so I don't think you can say that there's not other way to take what she said than the way you took it. My opinion is that she has been misunderstood. And I think it's stupid that this conversation has been turned so much into one about a few offhand comments of one person instead of the real issue at hand.
When I said what you failed to acknowledge, I was referring to your post - where you failed to acknowledge it. That is not an assumption. If you acknowledged it previously, I give you credit for that (which is not to say that you need my credit). I guess I've just forgotten because I'm thinking about what you're saying now. (Plus, frankly, a few of you are starting to run together.)
Regarding whose "fault" it is that girls are "suffering," I think A. You can't blame children for their "inability to reason". B. You must think ALL women lack the ability to reason, because you'd be hard-pressed to find any American woman who has not been influenced in some way by these ideals. I know you don't want any actual information, but data really does show that the media has a HUGE influence over women's self-image.
The funny thing about all this is, We probably agree on many of the issues at hand, it's just how things are presented. And I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and have wondered how differently this thread might have turned out if someone hadnt posted that pic of the model.
On a side note, there is a long thread about Jennifer Aniston and some comments are all about sex, and others are just amazement that someone could look that good at 41 yrs old. I've always found her beautiful and thought that she must have good genes. Then theres a HUGE thread about pictures about where ED looks HOT! we are a society based on sex, and most of us cant deny these urges. at least the women around here have good taste!
(And I can't help but notice that this is another assumption.)
I gotta ask....did you just learn the work "assumption" recently? Or, do you own a stake in it and get paid everytime you type it or a variation of it? Is it your word of the month on your calendar? I don't think I've seen more than 1 of your posts without it.
Then again, I haven't seen ALL your posts and I'm just ASSUMING that they are all like the ones here.
Funny. I think it's been a topic of coversation lately. I've used the words "women" and "girls" a lot too, since that' also the topic of conversation.
(And I can't help but notice that this is another assumption.)
I gotta ask....did you just learn the work "assumption" recently? Or, do you own a stake in it and get paid everytime you type it or a variation of it? Is it your word of the month on your calendar? I don't think I've seen more than 1 of your posts without it.
Then again, I haven't seen ALL your posts and I'm just ASSUMING that they are all like the ones here.
Funny. I think it's been a topic of coversation lately. I've used the words "women" and "girls" a lot too, since that' also the topic of conversation.
How about the words Lighten and Up. It's friday...with a 3 day weekend ahead for many.
And I know that "women" and "girls" would never be the word of the day. They are inferior words.
Can we please stop with this talking-shit-about-someone-else conversation? I don't think it's appropriate.
you've got a great way with spinning things around scb. You ask me questions about the OP, and tell me how not to react to her off-the wall comments, then call it shit-talking. I was a part of that conversation, i'll comment on it as much as I feel like I have something to say. But if you don't think it's approprite, I'll leave. I've been trying to discuss interesting things pertaining to the topic, but this thread is giving me a headache.
The funny thing about all this is, We probably agree on many of the issues at hand, it's just how things are presented. And I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and have wondered how differently this thread might have turned out if someone hadnt posted that pic of the model.
On a side note, there is a long thread about Jennifer Aniston and some comments are all about sex, and others are just amazement that someone could look that good at 41 yrs old. I've always found her beautiful and thought that she must have good genes. Then theres a HUGE thread about pictures about where ED looks HOT! we are a society based on sex, and most of us cant deny these urges. at least the women around here have good taste!
I think we probably do agree on much of this. And I think this conversation would have been completely different had that picture not been posted. I would love to have one of those converations some day, like the one I assume the OP intended.
I think Jennifer Aniston is pretty. And I think Ed is hot, which is something I've given considerable thought to - whether or not it is inappropriate for me think Ed is hot, that is. I've decided it's not and here's why: I have loved this band since the beginning but never noticed how hot Ed is until I learned about his convictions, his intelligence, his work to make this world a better place, etc. I remember the first time I told someone I thought Ed was the hottest guy alive... the person asked me what he looked like and I couldn't even remember. So I like to think it's more about who he is than just how he looks. (And I've seen this sentiment echoed repeatedly by the women on this message board.) HeidiJam could be Ed's look like Ed's identical twin and I wouldn't think he's hot.
I gotta ask....did you just learn the work "assumption" recently? Or, do you own a stake in it and get paid everytime you type it or a variation of it? Is it your word of the month on your calendar? I don't think I've seen more than 1 of your posts without it.
Then again, I haven't seen ALL your posts and I'm just ASSUMING that they are all like the ones here.
Funny. I think it's been a topic of coversation lately. I've used the words "women" and "girls" a lot too, since that' also the topic of conversation.
How about the words Lighten and Up. It's friday...with a 3 day weekend ahead for many.
And I know that "women" and "girls" would never be the word of the day. They are inferior words.
You could take that comedy routine on the road. I really think you've got something special there.
Can we please stop with this talking-shit-about-someone-else conversation? I don't think it's appropriate.
you've got a great way with spinning things around scb. You ask me questions about the OP, and tell me how not to react to her off-the wall comments, then call it shit-talking. I was a part of that conversation, i'll comment on it as much as I feel like I have something to say. But if you don't think it's approprite, I'll leave. I've been trying to discuss interesting things pertaining to the topic, but this thread is giving me a headache.
I just don't think arguing about whether or not the OP is jealous is appropriate and I feel like we're talking about her behind her back. I have a pretty bad headache myself.
I think Jennifer Aniston is pretty. And I think Ed is hot, which is something I've given considerable thought to - whether or not it is inappropriate for me think Ed is hot, that is. I've decided it's not and here's why...
Christ... you have to give "considerable thought" to whether it's appropriate to think someone is hot!?!?!
What the hell world do you live in that you have to basically justify it to yourself if you are attracted to someone. Do you realize how bizarre that sounds? We like who we like and we all think different people are "hot" or whatever. What is wrong just having that thought/feeling about someone?
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I think Jennifer Aniston is pretty. And I think Ed is hot, which is something I've given considerable thought to - whether or not it is inappropriate for me think Ed is hot, that is. I've decided it's not and here's why...
Christ... you have to give "considerable thought" to whether it's appropriate to think someone is hot!?!?!
What the hell world do you live in that you have to basically justify it to yourself if you are attracted to someone. Do you realize how bizarre that sounds? We like who we like and we all think different people are "hot" or whatever. What is wrong just having that thought/feeling about someone?
Yeah, I normally find it to be a reflex action, myself...
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
Comments
good question. This is where a lot of this thread got lost (i think)...
In the back of my mind, all along, i've been wondering if anybody realized that there is a big difference between ideal, standard, attractive, lustworthy, 'spank-bank' material :shock: , and healthy.
Personally, I think healthy is ideal, which usually results in a few of these other adjectives.
hmmmm. comebackgirl made me feel inferior. and look at all those jealous guys!
Right - NO ONE can really know what another person feels, so I don't know why you keep insisting that you do. Seriously. Why is it so important to you to insist that you know how someone else is feeling? And I believe she deleted her comments out of disgust for this conversation, not out of jealousy, competition, or being "not right".
Regarding you coming down on her for pointing out the negatives in something you and others see beauty in.... did you not get the whole point of the thread or something??? The OP clearly demonstrates that the fact that the majority of people find their ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women. And you're saying that her concern for girls and women demonstates jealousy of women?? (Is that what you're saying?)
I don't think I understand what you're saying with your last statement.
Reality has demonstrated that this is what happens.
Well I have been using standard as synonymous with ideal, by which I mean the ultimate goal that women should strive for to be considered most attractive, lustworthy, etc. (I don't think saying, "This is what you should look like to get an A, but I'll settle for the average C in you if I have to" does much of anything to change the message that women and girls should do what they can to get an A.) And I don't believe the ideal that we portray in this society (or that many of the comments I read and hear portray) is a healthy one. And therein lies the problem. At least that's what I've meant by those terms.
I am not insisting I know what she's thinking! However, it sounds like you do! I, however, am able to identify things as however I want, an deduce things from her tone/attitude and childish comments. If she is putting comments out like that out there, especially ones that I feel, in my opinion, are inconsistent and jealous, thats my perogative. YOU can't tell me how to percieve what she says either! geesh!
You 'believe' she deleted her comments because...???? haha! talk about contradictory! wow, now you know what she's thinking. oh wait, scb and Gita are the same person.
Also, you say that the thread "CLEARLY" demostrates that "THE MAJORITY" of people find thier ideal of beauty in images like this is KILLING girls and women? I disagree. The majority of those gilrs that are killing themselves are doing just that, ...killing themselves. They are often found to have psychological issues and a distorted sense of reality. I have, however, completely agreed that these images don't help the scenario.
I have NO IDEA where you get that I suggested her concern for girls showed jealousy, unless you mean that she was concerned that marissa Miller didnt know she peed her pants and she was concenred that one day she will wear panty liners and not be sexy.(?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbb3PxYrMcs
While I do buy clothes and hygiene (cosmetic?) products, I watch VERY little tv, buy no magazines, nor do I ‘diet’, and I do my best to control or discuss my kids exposure to these things. Yet to me it sounds like you’d think I perpetuate the problem if I were to think any one body type were more attractive than another. so are we not supposed to have a preference? I understand that you loathe objectification. But until our third eyes open and we all see each other’s auras, physical appearance will be the first thing we notice in others and a big part of our impressions of others, whether right or wrong.
I see your point when it comes to sheltering children from these influences, but that is the job of the parent, and media censorship for all is not the best way to protect orphans and the kids of deadbeats…
Amongst adults, yes, people need to take ownership of their treatment of others and the power they have to change things…however, they also need to take ownership of their own self image - that’s far more crucial than anything the media can do. In regards to trends...the media changes when we do.
What message does it send (to both sexes, on both sides of this discussion) to say that we need to improve self esteem amongst women….by getting men to stop being mean? Does that not take power from the woman with the esteem issue, and hand it right to the man you’re blaming for being so integral to it?
we’re once again teetering on the verge of PCness run amok. Like...we can’t compliment the exception lest we offend the norm.
PS - I've read Ishmael too. Looks like pretty much everyone in the thread has
is that why she only deleted the controversial comments and left the generic ones?
Dude, did it ever occur to you that she told me how she feels about it?? Again with your assumptions! :roll:
I think you misread my statement. When I used the word majority, I was referring to the people who think these images are beautiful and it was only because I was quoting you.
And you say girls kill themselves because they have a distorted sense of reality but you fail to acknowledge that they get this distorted sense of reality from the "ideal" of beauty that is constantly being shoved down their throats. This is a proven fact. Don't make me post more statistics. (Yes, that's a threat.
In defense of your position that the OP is jealous, you said, "Personally, I 've tried to live life seeing the good in things, and when people point out negatives in something that the majority of people see beauty in, it usually shows some sign...wehter its jealousy, humor, truth or whatever..." That is where I got that idea.
I think you may be assuming that I was calling her jealous for the wrong reasons. I was reacting to a specific comment she made – the one where she was bashing the model. Sure you can call it an assumption, but in the end, it is what it is, and if you portray yourself a certain way you are open to everyone elses prerogatives. I call it a prerogative, you call it an assumption. :roll:
If you wanna keep pulling out the assumption card, then there’s nothing more that can be said here, because essentially this whole message board is built on assumptions. How else is anyone supposed to react to someone who says things like Gita saying, “if you ignore suicide, it will find you.” And “shut the fuck up if you don’t have a vagina??” I am actually really just surprised anyone could defend her on some of these things. :roll:
Lastly, you are “assuming” (yes, assuming, again with the assumptions) that I have failed to acknowledge that these girls who are killing themselves do so because of distorted reality being shoved down their throats. You are wrong, I have acknowledged that and reasoned that it is a problem – I’m just not lingering on it. However, that is a nasty circle that is hard to debate…is it the fault of the pictures/images/ideals, or is it the fault of the person and their inability to reason hta these girl are suffereing? (THAT is rhetorical, PLEASE, no more stats!
I understand that people have preferences. I just think that preferences have become institutionalized, and idealizing only a few certain preferences has negative consequences. (I don't get it. Are you suggesting that socialization doesn't exist?) I understand that physical appearance is one of the first things we notice in other people. But I also believe that as supposedly evolved beings we should be able to not have that be as big an influence on our impression of others as it seems to be in this society.
Here's an example about preferences: My preference, all other things being equal, is to be with men who have minimal body hair. But I don't judge men or discriminate against them based on their body hair. I don't make fun of men with body hair. I would never expect a man to alter his body for me or to fit social norms, etc. I don't view having body hair as not meeting the ideal or express that it doesn't. And I don't support any message men might receive from the media or the rest of society that they should have minimal body hair.
I don't belive I've said anything about media censorship, so please don't put words in my mouth. I think the media should step up and be responsible themselves. And I think they're more inclined to do that if the public didn't encourage them not to. (I do think we especially need to consider negative advertising that is specifically targeted for kids though.)
Yes, of course people need to take ownership of their self-image as much as possible. But, again, are you denying the effects of socialization? It's very powerful - espicially when you have been specifically targeted practically since birth - and it's virtually impossible to TOTALLY overcome that - ESPECIALLY when any deviance from social norms is ridiculed by the people with whom you interact every day.
Did you mean to say men are mean? Or men are men? I don't see how it could ever be bad to get anyone to stop being mean. And, while I appreciate your concern for the empowerment of women, I think you're really just deflecting men's responsibility. No, I don't believe empowering one group to make positive change in society is necessarily disempowering to another group. Everyone can step up and do their part.
I don't think this is about PCness and no one ever said you can't compliment people.
This one's obviously not going to get answered...
Dude - I don't even know what comments she deleted and which ones she left. She deleted the original post. Was that too contoversial for you? As far as I noticed, she deleted all her comments but then came back and commented again later. I don't even know why we're having this conversation. I'm starting to think you have a thing for her.
my point exactly.. I did have a problem with what she said. Her comments to blackredyellow were very distasteful and she made several rude comments. I've been reading this board for years and have a very thick skin, but she says some things that are just very far from OK, things that most people wouldnt say to someone elses face.
too controversial for me? No. But i'm going to speak up when I disagree with someone.
Most interesting to me is that, yes, she specifically deleted the posts that could be considered controversial and left the generic ones. Call it an ASSUMPTION, but I'm under the impression that this would be one of those times in 'real life' where someone might be told to 'think before they speak'.
I reacted differently to what she said, so I don't think you can say that there's not other way to take what she said than the way you took it. My opinion is that she has been misunderstood. And I think it's stupid that this conversation has been turned so much into one about a few offhand comments of one person instead of the real issue at hand.
When I said what you failed to acknowledge, I was referring to your post - where you failed to acknowledge it. That is not an assumption. If you acknowledged it previously, I give you credit for that (which is not to say that you need my credit). I guess I've just forgotten because I'm thinking about what you're saying now. (Plus, frankly, a few of you are starting to run together.)
Regarding whose "fault" it is that girls are "suffering," I think A. You can't blame children for their "inability to reason". B. You must think ALL women lack the ability to reason, because you'd be hard-pressed to find any American woman who has not been influenced in some way by these ideals. I know you don't want any actual information, but data really does show that the media has a HUGE influence over women's self-image.
Patience, Grasshopper.
(And I can't help but notice that this is another assumption.)
Can we please stop with this talking-shit-about-someone-else conversation? I don't think it's appropriate.
I gotta ask....did you just learn the work "assumption" recently? Or, do you own a stake in it and get paid everytime you type it or a variation of it? Is it your word of the month on your calendar? I don't think I've seen more than 1 of your posts without it.
Then again, I haven't seen ALL your posts and I'm just ASSUMING that they are all like the ones here.
The funny thing about all this is, We probably agree on many of the issues at hand, it's just how things are presented. And I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and have wondered how differently this thread might have turned out if someone hadnt posted that pic of the model.
On a side note, there is a long thread about Jennifer Aniston and some comments are all about sex, and others are just amazement that someone could look that good at 41 yrs old. I've always found her beautiful and thought that she must have good genes. Then theres a HUGE thread about pictures about where ED looks HOT! we are a society based on sex, and most of us cant deny these urges. at least the women around here have good taste!
Funny. I think it's been a topic of coversation lately. I've used the words "women" and "girls" a lot too, since that' also the topic of conversation.
How about the words Lighten and Up. It's friday...with a 3 day weekend ahead for many.
And I know that "women" and "girls" would never be the word of the day. They are inferior words.
you've got a great way with spinning things around scb. You ask me questions about the OP, and tell me how not to react to her off-the wall comments, then call it shit-talking. I was a part of that conversation, i'll comment on it as much as I feel like I have something to say. But if you don't think it's approprite, I'll leave. I've been trying to discuss interesting things pertaining to the topic, but this thread is giving me a headache.
I think we probably do agree on much of this. And I think this conversation would have been completely different had that picture not been posted. I would love to have one of those converations some day, like the one I assume the OP intended.
I think Jennifer Aniston is pretty. And I think Ed is hot, which is something I've given considerable thought to - whether or not it is inappropriate for me think Ed is hot, that is. I've decided it's not and here's why: I have loved this band since the beginning but never noticed how hot Ed is until I learned about his convictions, his intelligence, his work to make this world a better place, etc. I remember the first time I told someone I thought Ed was the hottest guy alive... the person asked me what he looked like and I couldn't even remember. So I like to think it's more about who he is than just how he looks. (And I've seen this sentiment echoed repeatedly by the women on this message board.) HeidiJam could be Ed's look like Ed's identical twin and I wouldn't think he's hot.
You could take that comedy routine on the road. I really think you've got something special there.
I just don't think arguing about whether or not the OP is jealous is appropriate and I feel like we're talking about her behind her back. I have a pretty bad headache myself.
Jeez...tough crowd. Have a nice weekend scb.
for the record, I thought your post was comedy gold...
gold, I say...
Christ... you have to give "considerable thought" to whether it's appropriate to think someone is hot!?!?!
What the hell world do you live in that you have to basically justify it to yourself if you are attracted to someone. Do you realize how bizarre that sounds? We like who we like and we all think different people are "hot" or whatever. What is wrong just having that thought/feeling about someone?
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Yeah, I normally find it to be a reflex action, myself...