14 years and counting...

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

An Expert on Concentration Camps Says That's Exactly What the U.S. Is Running at the Border

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentration-camps-southern-border-migrant-detention-facilities-trump/?fbclid=IwAR0NQ0OHqv7ZF9HelLY3iKxTVOXeLAkgDzS71zVUGbMubGvGIMb6MfYNN14

This is a very interesting read.

Thank you.

Will have to read later. Isn’t there a big difference between round people up from their homes and putting them in a camp to having people come to your border and putting them in a camp?

Concentration camps are defined by the conditions and practices maintained within the camps, not by where the prisoners came from. But FWIW, once ICE starts these raids that Trump keeps threatening, they'll be throwing people who were rounded up from their homes in them as well.

Yeah but the people who are being rounded up are here illegally which to me is a big difference.  “We will be going after individuals who have gone through due process, who have received final orders of deportation," he said. "That will include families. Right now we’re talking about that and what it should look like.”

I don't understand how it matters so much to you. These are desperate people, including children, being held in terrible conditions without trial. In any case, if Cincy was asking if the fact that they are people who tried to illegally cross the border affects whether or not these are concentration camps, the answer is no. I am going to assume that you're not suggesting it's okay to hold people in concentration camps because they tried to cross the border. 

Halifax2TheMax

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

An Expert on Concentration Camps Says That's Exactly What the U.S. Is Running at the Border

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentration-camps-southern-border-migrant-detention-facilities-trump/?fbclid=IwAR0NQ0OHqv7ZF9HelLY3iKxTVOXeLAkgDzS71zVUGbMubGvGIMb6MfYNN14

This is a very interesting read.

Thank you.

Will have to read later. Isn’t there a big difference between round people up from their homes and putting them in a camp to having people come to your border and putting them in a camp?

Concentration camps are defined by the conditions and practices maintained within the camps, not by where the prisoners came from. But FWIW, once ICE starts these raids that Trump keeps threatening, they'll be throwing people who were rounded up from their homes in them as well.

Yeah but the people who are being rounded up are here illegally which to me is a big difference.  “We will be going after individuals who have gone through due process, who have received final orders of deportation," he said. "That will include families. Right now we’re talking about that and what it should look like.”

I don't understand how it matters so much to you. These are desperate people, including children, being held in terrible conditions without trial. In any case, if Cincy was asking if the fact that they are people who tried to illegally cross the border affects whether or not these are concentration camps, the answer is no. I am going to assume that you're not suggesting it's okay to hold people in concentration camps because they tried to cross the border. 

They’re either rapists, murderers and/or drug dealers or the off-spring of same. Either way, they’re not Mexico’s or Central and South America’s “best.”

cincybearcat

Interesting read.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/there-are-no-concentration-camps-on-the-border/2019/06/24/0229e886-96bb-11e9-830a-21b9b36b64ad_story.html?utm_term=.f9d3434a0510

Regardless of the word choice (and I personally wouldn't use concentration camps), it continues ot be an awful situation that apparently no one has any political will to actually solve. 

Halifax2TheMax

Forwarded by a friend by someone who gets it:

To the members of the MIT community,

MIT has flourished, like the United States itself, because it has been a magnet for the world’s finest talent, a global laboratory where people from every culture and background inspire each other and invent the future, together.

Today, I feel compelled to share my dismay about some circumstances painfully relevant to our fellow MIT community members of Chinese descent. And I believe that because we treasure them as friends and colleagues, their situation and its larger national context should concern us all.

The situation
As the US and China have struggled with rising tensions, the US government has raised serious concerns about incidents of alleged academic espionage conducted by individuals through what is widely understood as a systematic effort of the Chinese government to acquire high-tech IP.

As head of an institute that includes MIT Lincoln Laboratory, I could not take national security more seriously. I am well aware of the risks of academic espionage, and MIT has established prudent policies to protect against such breaches.

But in managing these risks, we must take great care not to create a toxic atmosphere of unfounded suspicion and fear. Looking at cases across the nation, small numbers of researchers of Chinese background may indeed have acted in bad faith, but they are the exception and very far from the rule. Yet faculty members, post-docs, research staff and students tell me that, in their dealings with government agencies, they now feel unfairly scrutinized, stigmatized and on edge – because of their Chinese ethnicity alone.

Nothing could be further from – or more corrosive to ­– our community’s collaborative strength and open-hearted ideals. To hear such reports from Chinese and Chinese-American colleagues is heartbreaking. As scholars, teachers, mentors, inventors and entrepreneurs, they have been not only exemplary members of our community but exceptional contributors to American society. I am deeply troubled that they feel themselves repaid with generalized mistrust and disrespect.

The signal to the world
For those of us who know firsthand the immense value of MIT’s global community and of the free flow of scientific ideas, it is important to understand the distress of these colleagues as part of an increasingly loud signal the US is sending to the world.

Protracted visa delays. Harsh rhetoric against most immigrants and a range of other groups, because of religion, race, ethnicity or national origin. Together, such actions and policies have turned the volume all the way up on the message that the US is closing the door – that we no longer seek to be a magnet for the world’s most driven and creative individuals. I believe this message is not consistent with how America has succeeded. I am certain it is not how the Institute has succeeded. And we should expect it to have serious long-term costs for the nation and for MIT.

For the record, let me say with warmth and enthusiasm to every member of MIT’s intensely global community: We are glad, proud and fortunate to have you with us! To our alumni around the world: We remain one community, united by our shared values and ideals! And to all the rising talent out there: If you are passionate about making a better world, and if you dream of joining our community, we welcome your creativity, we welcome your unstoppable energy and aspiration – and we hope you can find a way to join us.

* * *

In May, the world lost a brilliant creative force: architect I.M. Pei, MIT Class of 1940. Raised in Shanghai and Hong Kong, he came to the United States at 17 to seek an education. He left a legacy of iconic buildings from Boston to Paris and China to Washington, DC, as well on our own campus. By his own account, he consciously stayed alive to his Chinese roots all his life. Yet, when he died at the age of 102, the Boston Globe described him as “the most prominent American architect of his generation.”

Thanks to the inspired American system that also made room for me as an immigrant, all of those facts can be true at the same time.

As I have discovered through 40 years in academia, the hidden strength of a university is that every fall, it is refreshed by a new tide of students. I am equally convinced that part of the genius of America is that it is continually refreshed by immigration – by the passionate energy, audacity, ingenuity and drive of people hungry for a better life.

There is certainly room for a wide range of serious positions on the actions necessary to ensure our national security and to manage and improve our nation’s immigration system. But above the noise of the current moment, the signal I believe we should be sending, loud and clear, is that the story of American immigration is essential to understanding how the US became, and remains, optimistic, open-minded, innovative and prosperous – a story of never-ending renewal.

In a nation like ours, immigration is a kind of oxygen, each fresh wave reenergizing the body as a whole. As a society, when we offer immigrants the gift of opportunity, we receive in return vital fuel for our shared future. I trust that this wisdom will always guide us in the life and work of MIT. And I hope it can continue to guide our nation.

Sincerely,

L. Rafael Reif

Kat

TRUMP Camps are cruel and even evil. It's clear to me that he likes them that way. They won't deter people since they are trying to escape horrific conditions. 

Kat

Wayfair Workers Walk Out Over Business With Migrant Detention Center

The online retailer furnished a migrant detention facility for children on the southern border, and its employees are furious.
Today

Hundreds of outraged Wayfair employees at the company’s Boston headquarters walked off the job Wednesday to protest the online retailer’s business with a contractor that operates migrant detention centers.

Workers learned last week that the furniture outlet sold $200,000 worth of bedroom furniture to a government contractor called BCFS for the purpose of outfitting an immigrant detention facility in Carrizo Springs, Texas, reportedly capable of detaining 1,600 migrant children.

continued at

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wayfair-migrant-detention-furniture-donation_n_5d138f9be4b09ad014f95b68

cincybearcat

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

benjs

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

dignin

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

cincybearcat

dignin said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

So your company doesn’t do anything you don’t agree with? 

Halifax2TheMax

Kat said:

Wayfair Workers Walk Out Over Business With Migrant Detention Center

The online retailer furnished a migrant detention facility for children on the southern border, and its employees are furious.
Today

Hundreds of outraged Wayfair employees at the company’s Boston headquarters walked off the job Wednesday to protest the online retailer’s business with a contractor that operates migrant detention centers.

Workers learned last week that the furniture outlet sold $200,000 worth of bedroom furniture to a government contractor called BCFS for the purpose of outfitting an immigrant detention facility in Carrizo Springs, Texas, reportedly capable of detaining 1,600 migrant children.

continued at

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wayfair-migrant-detention-furniture-donation_n_5d138f9be4b09ad014f95b68

Anyone checking to see if protocol was followed for the purchasing and bid? Typically, the GAO and GSA put out a bid with specs and bidders cannot be on the federal debarred list. How much has BCFS or Wayfair contributed to Team Trump Treason or repubs? What were the specs for the furniture? Made in the USA? Certain % of content or components made in USA? Is BCFS authorized via their contract to purchase furniture on behalf of the US government and by extension the tax payers? I’m sure there’s some furniture manufacturer somewhere in ‘Murica looking for business. Or just another case of geez, let’s open a detention center for kids, house them for months but hey, they don’t need no stinking beds? Shame.

benjs

dignin said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

I'm all for drawing attention to the topic, and can understand where you're coming from, but I think your analogy's a bit off though. It would make more sense in the context of IBM's relationship with Nazi Germany, where IBM could've refused Hitler's business, but chose not to, supporting the dirty tabulating of the atrocities. Let me think about this more but I can get with that rationale. 

dignin

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

So your company doesn’t do anything you don’t agree with? 

I own my company, so no. But if I worked for a company that did business with a government or another company involved in separating kids from their parents and holding them in squalor you bet I would speak up. You wouldn't?

Especially when that company is so directly involved in profiting from the misery.

dignin

benjs said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

I'm all for drawing attention to the topic, and can understand where you're coming from, but I think your analogy's a bit off though. It would make more sense in the context of IBM's relationship with Nazi Germany, where IBM could've refused Hitler's business, but chose not to, supporting the dirty tabulating of the atrocities. Let me think about this more but I can get with that rationale. 

Yeah it's not a perfect analogy and hyperbolic, but I couldn't think of another on the fly.

cincybearcat

dignin said:

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

So your company doesn’t do anything you don’t agree with? 

I own my company, so no. But if I worked for a company that did business with a government or another company involved in separating kids from their parents and holding them in squalor you bet I would speak up. You wouldn't?

Especially when that company is so directly involved in profiting from the misery.

I don’t think selling furniture to a border shelter/camp is really all that bad.  I guess I’m confused, complain about the conditions and boycott the conditions improving? 

To each their own, but it seems pretty stupid to me. 

benjs

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

So your company doesn’t do anything you don’t agree with? 

I own my company, so no. But if I worked for a company that did business with a government or another company involved in separating kids from their parents and holding them in squalor you bet I would speak up. You wouldn't?

Especially when that company is so directly involved in profiting from the misery.

I don’t think selling furniture to a border shelter/camp is really all that bad.  I guess I’m confused, complain about the conditions and boycott the conditions improving? 

To each their own, but it seems pretty stupid to me. 

If you think of furniture as a necessity for them to operate, then selling furniture to them can be seen as contributing to enabling the system when you had a choice of not doing so.

The Juggler

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

bootlegger10 said:

For all the talk that there are less immigrants coming you would think the infrastructure we had in place would be sufficient to handle all those coming across the border.  Why is there such a strain on the system right now if the problem is supposedly decreasing?

This problem has been talked about for years but not much care in it.  Now that Trump is President it has become a focal point.

Change my mind.

Yes and no, we have a lot more folks coming than ever before.  We don’t have enough facilities because the numbers are so much higher than in the past.  It starts with more facilities and more judges- the quicker they can get in front of a judge, the quicker they get released into the country, less time in the cages.

starts with the govt.  since one side is holding things up, we can’t get more facilities or judges or anything, so it just bottlenecks in the cages.

i feel for the border towns as much as the immigrants.  They’re being inundated and overrun and have no where to turn since the govt won’t address the needs.

Gee. Seems like things have gotten progressively worse since Trump was sworn in. Who would've thought?

Thanks for admitting this, though. Means a lot coming from a blind Trump supporter. 

cincybearcat

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

So your company doesn’t do anything you don’t agree with? 

I own my company, so no. But if I worked for a company that did business with a government or another company involved in separating kids from their parents and holding them in squalor you bet I would speak up. You wouldn't?

Especially when that company is so directly involved in profiting from the misery.

I don’t think selling furniture to a border shelter/camp is really all that bad.  I guess I’m confused, complain about the conditions and boycott the conditions improving? 

To each their own, but it seems pretty stupid to me. 

If you think of furniture as a necessity for them to operate, then selling furniture to them can be seen as contributing to enabling the system when you had a choice of not doing so.

So if they don’t sell them furniture than no one shows up at the border??? Who knew. Problem solved. Don’t need a wall just need no furniture!

Jason P

Unpainted Arizona!

hopefully no one has to boycott apples or the such 

dignin

cincybearcat said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

benjs said:

cincybearcat said:

Damn those wayfair employees are cruel. No furniture for you! Poor migrant kids 

Met a few Wayfair employees at an AI conference over the past few days - absurdly fascinating company from a data perspective, and very kind (and brilliant) people. I don't understand the cause for protest though - had Wayfair not delivered this furniture, it'd have been sourced elsewhere. Or, considering the Trump administration, maybe they just wouldn't have equipped the place with furniture at all. 

That's a pretty poor argument. The Nazis would have just taken their business elsewhere.

If it was a company I worked for I wouldn't want any part of that travesty either. Plus it brings more attention to this issue, which can only be a good thing.

So your company doesn’t do anything you don’t agree with? 

I own my company, so no. But if I worked for a company that did business with a government or another company involved in separating kids from their parents and holding them in squalor you bet I would speak up. You wouldn't?

Especially when that company is so directly involved in profiting from the misery.

I don’t think selling furniture to a border shelter/camp is really all that bad.  I guess I’m confused, complain about the conditions and boycott the conditions improving? 

To each their own, but it seems pretty stupid to me. 

If you think of furniture as a necessity for them to operate, then selling furniture to them can be seen as contributing to enabling the system when you had a choice of not doing so.

So if they don’t sell them furniture than no one shows up at the border??? Who knew. Problem solved. Don’t need a wall just need no furniture!

Yes, and I think it might cure cancer too.

And if it doesn't do those things, everyone should throw in the towel and do nothing at all about anything. That's the spirit, why try and change anything.