I think it's pretty easy to sit here and say you're all against it. I wonder how many would feel differently if say maybe, your young daughter was raped and murdered by some psycho. I think if someone can be accused through DNA evidence so the courts know that they have the right guy for a crime like this, fuckem.......put the fucker to sleep....for good. I don't need my tax dollars supporting this fucker.
Also, I find it strange how many liberals are against capital punishment but yet still support abortion. Some of you people really make no sense.
I have to say, I'm with MB on this one...(minus the liberal jab)
I guess I'm a heartless bastard as I think there are some who crimes warrant the death penalty...
unfortunatley, the tax dollar issue to SUPPORT the death penalty is completely false. It actually takes more tax dollars to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for their natural life. That's an indisputable fact.
And I could care less about my tax dollars when we are talking about killing someone. It's just not right. I'm not religious, at ALL, but if there is someone out there who judges us in the end, it's not US. We don't get to choose who lives or dies in this life. It's wrong. It's criminal. The US is, if I'm not mistaken, the only "free" first world nation that still does it. It's barbaric. I don't give a shit how it's done, it's still barbaric to kill someone in the name of justice.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
my punctuation??? please explain that one. the first five words of my question were.. where do we stand on... and my last four words were.. do they deserve life???? not dont they deserve life??? if your comprehension skills are lacking thats not my problem. all steve had to do is ask me but instead he asked an accusatory question and questioned my logic.
easy, Cate, easy. But asking "do they deserve life?????" with that many question marks tells me that you are insinuating they DON'T deserve life. Again, I said I was glad we misread you. My comprehension skills are just fine, thanks.
No need to get nasty about it. Jeez.
this is not me nasty. trust me on that. and i use multiple question marks cause one gets lonely. its a quirk thats all.
fine, you weren't being as nasty as you could have been, but there's no need to insult me. it demeans you and your arguments.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
As for violent resistance against occupation and the death penalty, maybe you can explain to me how they are the same thing?
They are not the same thing ... That was an example to illustrate the dangers of making assumptions. People could have asked what she meant by the question. I admire people like Starfall who retain their moral compass even in the face of massive tragedy, but many people probably cannot accurately state that their feelings on this sort of an issue would NEVER change.
unfortunatley, the tax dollar issue to SUPPORT the death penalty is completely false. It actually takes more tax dollars to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for their natural life. That's an indisputable fact.
Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment, do you have stats to back that up? Seems counterintuitive, although I've heard that argument before. Execution is expensive due to all the appeals and the associated processes?
I think it's pretty easy to sit here and say you're all against it. I wonder how many would feel differently if say maybe, your young daughter was raped and murdered by some psycho. I think if someone can be accused through DNA evidence so the courts know that they have the right guy for a crime like this, fuckem.......put the fucker to sleep....for good. I don't need my tax dollars supporting this fucker.
Also, I find it strange how many liberals are against capital punishment but yet still support abortion. Some of you people really make no sense.
I have to say, I'm with MB on this one...(minus the liberal jab)
I guess I'm a heartless bastard as I think there are some who crimes warrant the death penalty...
unfortunatley, the tax dollar issue to SUPPORT the death penalty is completely false. It actually takes more tax dollars to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for their natural life. That's an indisputable fact.
And I could care less about my tax dollars when we are talking about killing someone. It's just not right. I'm not religious, at ALL, but if there is someone out there who judges us in the end, it's not US. We don't get to choose who lives or dies in this life. It's wrong. It's criminal. The US is, if I'm not mistaken, the only "free" first world nation that still does it. It's barbaric. I don't give a shit how it's done, it's still barbaric to kill someone in the name of justice.
for the record, the tax dollar thing is not an issue for me...I just happen to think the d.p. is warranted in some cases...
If you try to explain the death penalty to a child, their innocence being true sight, they do not understand.
This concept of killing a human being because that human being killed another human being and we do so because killing a human being is wrong. So if it is wrong to kill a human being then the punishment of killing a human being is wrong.
Follow? ( I use more than 1 ? when I'm confused) am I a bit confusing??
As for violent resistance against occupation and the death penalty, maybe you can explain to me how they are the same thing?
They are not the same thing ... That was an example to illustrate the dangers of making assumptions. People could have asked what she meant by the question. I admire people like Starfall who retain their moral compass even in the face of massive tragedy, but many people probably cannot accurately state that their feelings on this sort of an issue would NEVER change.
No one can ever know for sure that their feelings on ANY issue would NEVER change. Feelings are complicated like that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to make laws based on we believe to be right and wrong.
Also, I admire Starfall as well. And there are many other people out there who have experienced similar tragedy and are still against the death penalty.
No one can ever know for sure that their feelings on ANY issue would NEVER change. Feelings are complicated like that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to make laws based on we believe to be right and wrong.
Agreed. Capital punishment was abolished here quite a while ago and I have no problem with that. I do find it interesting that many polls on the topic show fairly high levels of support for capital punishment, which probably does speak to a pervasive perceived need for revenge in society. Not a great state of affairs, although I can also sympathize with victims whose lives are ruined by psychopaths (and I am not using the term psychopath as a catch-all term for murderers in general ... I mean that small subset of criminals who probably cannot be rehabilitated).
unfortunatley, the tax dollar issue to SUPPORT the death penalty is completely false. It actually takes more tax dollars to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for their natural life. That's an indisputable fact.
Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment, do you have stats to back that up? Seems counterintuitive, although I've heard that argument before. Execution is expensive due to all the appeals and the associated processes?
no, I don't, but if my boss wasn't looking over my shoulder, I could surely find some. I read the actual stats a long time ago. yes, it is the endless appeals process and all that is involved with making sure the person is indeed guilty before they get executed. I'm sure the actual act of the execution is fairly cheap.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I guess I'm a heartless bastard as I think there are some who crimes warrant the death penalty...
Okay, let's say some crimes do warrant the death penalty. How do you reconcile the possibility that the wrong person could be convicted of the crime?
exactly. you can never know. even DNA isn't the be all end all in all cases. What if someone who was raped and murdered by a total stranger was found to only have one type of semen in them (their boyfriend or lover), so that person was convicted of the crime, all because the rapist/murderer wore a condom? The boyfriend has "defensive" wounds on him because he and his woman liked to get rough?
Think about it. Unless it's caught on video, there's NO WAY to be 100% certain that someone is guilty.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I think I find the moral arguments against the death penalty more convincing than the "possibility of a mistake" argument. I agree that mistakes are possible, but they are also possible in terms of people getting life sentences, and one might argue that the endless appeals process actually makes mistakes less likely in capital punishment cases as compared to life prison sentences. I have no stats to back that up, but I'd wonder. Obviously it would be horrible to execute the wrong person, but its also horrible to confine an innocent person to prison for life, and maybe its better to just concede that state-sanctioned executions are horrible from a moral standpoint, period?
I think I find the moral arguments against the death penalty more convincing than the "possibility of a mistake" argument. I agree that mistakes are possible, but they are also possible in terms of people getting life sentences, and one might argue that the endless appeals process actually makes mistakes less likely in capital punishment cases as compared to life prison sentences. I have no stats to back that up, but I'd wonder. Obviously it would be horrible to execute the wrong person, but its also horrible to confine an innocent person to prison for life, and maybe its better to just concede that state-sanctioned executions are horrible from a moral standpoint, period?
The difference is that life sentences are reversible; death is not. I agree that the immorality of it should be enough to convince us to not do it, but for some people it's not.
I guess I'm a heartless bastard as I think there are some who crimes warrant the death penalty...
Okay, let's say some crimes do warrant the death penalty. How do you reconcile the possibility that the wrong person could be convicted of the crime?
ok...few years ago, I was in a training for work, a police officer told a story of a murder that happened locally a several years ago...a truck driver picked up a working girl, without getting too graphic, he reached up inside her a pulled her guts out...I'm not making this up...
that's the sort of fucker that deserves the death penalty...
other upstanding folks that come to mind are high profile bastards like J.W. Gacy or Dalmer...or that guy in Cleveland who had the dead bodies all over his house...
The difference is that life sentences are reversible; death is not. I agree that the immorality of it should be enough to convince us to not do it, but for some people it's not.
Yes and no ... Obviously death has more than a little finality to it, but someone's life can be utterly ruined by a life sentence that does not get overturned quickly enough. I will concede that at least a life sentence does afford the opportunity, though.
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,122
I guess I'm a heartless bastard as I think there are some who crimes warrant the death penalty...
Okay, let's say some crimes do warrant the death penalty. How do you reconcile the possibility that the wrong person could be convicted of the crime?
ok...few years ago, I was in a training for work, a police officer told a story of a murder that happened locally a several years ago...a truck driver picked up a working girl, without getting too graphic, he reached up inside her a pulled her guts out...I'm not making this up...
that's the sort of fucker that deserves the death penalty...
other upstanding folks that come to mind are high profile bastards like J.W. Gacy or Dalmer...or that guy in Cleveland who had the dead bodies all over his house...
I understand what you're saying and even though I'm against the death penalty I felt no loss to the likes of ......
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I dont know the credibility behind it (wikipedia), but the irony here is that the wrong man was executed in Russia for one of that guys murders! Yikes!
I dont' really like the death penalty, but this russian pig and the likes of gacy and Dahmer shouldnt live in this world.
As for violent resistance against occupation and the death penalty, maybe you can explain to me how they are the same thing?
They are not the same thing ... That was an example to illustrate the dangers of making assumptions. People could have asked what she meant by the question. I admire people like Starfall who retain their moral compass even in the face of massive tragedy, but many people probably cannot accurately state that their feelings on this sort of an issue would NEVER change.
No one can ever know for sure that their feelings on ANY issue would NEVER change. Feelings are complicated like that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to make laws based on we believe to be right and wrong.
Also, I admire Starfall as well. And there are many other people out there who have experienced similar tragedy and are still against the death penalty.
there's a very good website out there that opposes the death penalty. they campaign on behalf of murder victims and their families.
their aim is "to put real faces on victim opposition to the death penalty by presenting photos and statements from survivors throughout the United States and around the world, along with photos of the murder victim and links to further information."
these a real people, real stories. absolutely heartbreaking. these people know what it's like to lose someone they loved very much, and they are completely against the death penalty.
I guess I'm a heartless bastard as I think there are some who crimes warrant the death penalty...
Okay, let's say some crimes do warrant the death penalty. How do you reconcile the possibility that the wrong person could be convicted of the crime?
ok...few years ago, I was in a training for work, a police officer told a story of a murder that happened locally a several years ago...a truck driver picked up a working girl, without getting too graphic, he reached up inside her a pulled her guts out...I'm not making this up...
that's the sort of fucker that deserves the death penalty...
other upstanding folks that come to mind are high profile bastards like J.W. Gacy or Dalmer...or that guy in Cleveland who had the dead bodies all over his house...
Okay :? .... that was like the opposite of answering my question. :?
Let me rephrase: While certainly pulling out a prostitute's guts is an absolutely heinous crime (and I could tell you plenty more stories as well), what if it was our good truck-driving friend Speedy who was (wrongfully, of course) convicted of this crime? Should he be murdered by the state?
If you try to explain the death penalty to a child, their innocence being true sight, they do not understand.
This concept of killing a human being because that human being killed another human being and we do so because killing a human being is wrong. So if it is wrong to kill a human being then the punishment of killing a human being is wrong.
Follow? ( I use more than 1 ? when I'm confused) am I a bit confusing??
Funny thing is, the same government that takes a moral high ground and acts like God by murdering it's own citizens in the name of 'justice', is also guilty of murdering over 1 million Iraqi's in an illegal occupation which continues as we speak.
Every day soldiers return home from Iraq and are treated like heroes, yet many of these people have just been murdering unarmed men, women and children.
Funny thing is, the same government that takes a moral high ground and acts like God by murdering it's own citizens in the name of 'justice', is also guilty of murdering over 1 million Iraqi's in an illegal occupation which continues as we speak.
Every day soldiers return home from Iraq and are treated like heroes, yet many of these people have just been murdering unarmed men, women and children.
too bad you have so little trust in the individual soldiers who fight every day. MANY as you put it do not murder unarmed women and children. That is a ridiculous overstatement that you should take back. If you cannot see the difference in what a soldier does and what a murderer does than I feel sorry for you.
Seems like you and I disagree on a lot of stuff, I really am not trying to be difficult with you or anything. Just so I can get to know where you are coming from a little bit, are you a sociology major by any chance? Not making fun of that in anyway, I am one too. Just seems like you have a mind for the social sciences
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Perhaps your comments are a little closer to the truth than the other posters', but in my mind, at some point or in such matters, all these things break down into reasons and justifications for killing.. which directly or indirectly...and both are crimes.. merely different degrees of the same wrong doing.
too bad you have so little trust in the individual soldiers who fight every day. MANY as you put it do not murder unarmed women and children. That is a ridiculous overstatement that you should take back. If you cannot see the difference in what a soldier does and what a murderer does than I feel sorry for you.
Seems like you and I disagree on a lot of stuff, I really am not trying to be difficult with you or anything. Just so I can get to know where you are coming from a little bit, are you a sociology major by any chance? Not making fun of that in anyway, I am one too. Just seems like you have a mind for the social sciences
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Funny thing is, the same government that takes a moral high ground and acts like God by murdering it's own citizens in the name of 'justice', is also guilty of murdering over 1 million Iraqi's in an illegal occupation which continues as we speak.
Every day soldiers return home from Iraq and are treated like heroes, yet many of these people have just been murdering unarmed men, women and children.
too bad you have so little trust in the individual soldiers who fight every day. MANY as you put it do not murder unarmed women and children. That is a ridiculous overstatement that you should take back. If you cannot see the difference in what a soldier does and what a murderer does than I feel sorry for you.
Seems like you and I disagree on a lot of stuff, I really am not trying to be difficult with you or anything. Just so I can get to know where you are coming from a little bit, are you a sociology major by any chance? Not making fun of that in anyway, I am one too. Just seems like you have a mind for the social sciences
I'm not saying all the troops have behaved this way, but a fair percentage have. Just trying to place some perspective here is all.
Perhaps your comments are a little closer to the truth than the other posters', but in my mind, at some point or in such matters, all these things break down into reasons and justifications for killing.. which directly or indirectly...and both are crimes.. merely different degrees of the same wrong doing.
too bad you have so little trust in the individual soldiers who fight every day. MANY as you put it do not murder unarmed women and children. That is a ridiculous overstatement that you should take back. If you cannot see the difference in what a soldier does and what a murderer does than I feel sorry for you.
Seems like you and I disagree on a lot of stuff, I really am not trying to be difficult with you or anything. Just so I can get to know where you are coming from a little bit, are you a sociology major by any chance? Not making fun of that in anyway, I am one too. Just seems like you have a mind for the social sciences
understandable but than is there ever a justified killing? I happen to think so, but how about you?
If someone tries to kill you than you fight back.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Comments
unfortunatley, the tax dollar issue to SUPPORT the death penalty is completely false. It actually takes more tax dollars to execute someone than it does to keep them in prison for their natural life. That's an indisputable fact.
And I could care less about my tax dollars when we are talking about killing someone. It's just not right. I'm not religious, at ALL, but if there is someone out there who judges us in the end, it's not US. We don't get to choose who lives or dies in this life. It's wrong. It's criminal. The US is, if I'm not mistaken, the only "free" first world nation that still does it. It's barbaric. I don't give a shit how it's done, it's still barbaric to kill someone in the name of justice.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
fine, you weren't being as nasty as you could have been, but there's no need to insult me. it demeans you and your arguments.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
They are not the same thing ... That was an example to illustrate the dangers of making assumptions. People could have asked what she meant by the question. I admire people like Starfall who retain their moral compass even in the face of massive tragedy, but many people probably cannot accurately state that their feelings on this sort of an issue would NEVER change.
Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment, do you have stats to back that up? Seems counterintuitive, although I've heard that argument before. Execution is expensive due to all the appeals and the associated processes?
for the record, the tax dollar thing is not an issue for me...I just happen to think the d.p. is warranted in some cases...
Why?
because...
i wasnt nasty at all.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This concept of killing a human being because that human being killed another human being and we do so because killing a human being is wrong. So if it is wrong to kill a human being then the punishment of killing a human being is wrong.
Follow? ( I use more than 1 ? when I'm confused) am I a bit confusing??
No one can ever know for sure that their feelings on ANY issue would NEVER change. Feelings are complicated like that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to make laws based on we believe to be right and wrong.
Also, I admire Starfall as well. And there are many other people out there who have experienced similar tragedy and are still against the death penalty.
Okay, let's say some crimes do warrant the death penalty. How do you reconcile the possibility that the wrong person could be convicted of the crime?
Agreed. Capital punishment was abolished here quite a while ago and I have no problem with that. I do find it interesting that many polls on the topic show fairly high levels of support for capital punishment, which probably does speak to a pervasive perceived need for revenge in society. Not a great state of affairs, although I can also sympathize with victims whose lives are ruined by psychopaths (and I am not using the term psychopath as a catch-all term for murderers in general ... I mean that small subset of criminals who probably cannot be rehabilitated).
:roll:
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
no, I don't, but if my boss wasn't looking over my shoulder, I could surely find some. I read the actual stats a long time ago. yes, it is the endless appeals process and all that is involved with making sure the person is indeed guilty before they get executed. I'm sure the actual act of the execution is fairly cheap.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
exactly. you can never know. even DNA isn't the be all end all in all cases. What if someone who was raped and murdered by a total stranger was found to only have one type of semen in them (their boyfriend or lover), so that person was convicted of the crime, all because the rapist/murderer wore a condom? The boyfriend has "defensive" wounds on him because he and his woman liked to get rough?
Think about it. Unless it's caught on video, there's NO WAY to be 100% certain that someone is guilty.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The difference is that life sentences are reversible; death is not. I agree that the immorality of it should be enough to convince us to not do it, but for some people it's not.
ok...few years ago, I was in a training for work, a police officer told a story of a murder that happened locally a several years ago...a truck driver picked up a working girl, without getting too graphic, he reached up inside her a pulled her guts out...I'm not making this up...
that's the sort of fucker that deserves the death penalty...
other upstanding folks that come to mind are high profile bastards like J.W. Gacy or Dalmer...or that guy in Cleveland who had the dead bodies all over his house...
Yes and no ... Obviously death has more than a little finality to it, but someone's life can be utterly ruined by a life sentence that does not get overturned quickly enough. I will concede that at least a life sentence does afford the opportunity, though.
I understand what you're saying and even though I'm against the death penalty I felt no loss to the likes of ......
Russian The Butcher Of Rustov: Andrei Romanovich Chikatilo and then one of the most haunting movies I've ever seen in Citizen X (1995) it stayed with me for days. :shock:
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I dont know the credibility behind it (wikipedia), but the irony here is that the wrong man was executed in Russia for one of that guys murders! Yikes!
I dont' really like the death penalty, but this russian pig and the likes of gacy and Dahmer shouldnt live in this world.
their aim is "to put real faces on victim opposition to the death penalty by presenting photos and statements from survivors throughout the United States and around the world, along with photos of the murder victim and links to further information."
these a real people, real stories. absolutely heartbreaking. these people know what it's like to lose someone they loved very much, and they are completely against the death penalty.
http://www.mvfhr.org/victims-stories
Okay :? .... that was like the opposite of answering my question. :?
Let me rephrase: While certainly pulling out a prostitute's guts is an absolutely heinous crime (and I could tell you plenty more stories as well), what if it was our good truck-driving friend Speedy who was (wrongfully, of course) convicted of this crime? Should he be murdered by the state?
Because what?
Murder the murderer.
Every day soldiers return home from Iraq and are treated like heroes, yet many of these people have just been murdering unarmed men, women and children.
too bad you have so little trust in the individual soldiers who fight every day. MANY as you put it do not murder unarmed women and children. That is a ridiculous overstatement that you should take back. If you cannot see the difference in what a soldier does and what a murderer does than I feel sorry for you.
Seems like you and I disagree on a lot of stuff, I really am not trying to be difficult with you or anything. Just so I can get to know where you are coming from a little bit, are you a sociology major by any chance? Not making fun of that in anyway, I am one too. Just seems like you have a mind for the social sciences
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I'm not saying all the troops have behaved this way, but a fair percentage have. Just trying to place some perspective here is all.
And I'm a philosophy major.
understandable but than is there ever a justified killing? I happen to think so, but how about you?
If someone tries to kill you than you fight back.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan