I saw a show on debunking 9/11 myths the other day and it pretty much showed how ignorant the conspiarcy theorist are
my favorite is: How does a steel building collapse from the heat of a fire below Steel's melting point?
we the answer is pretty clear It doesn't need to melt all the way to lose structural integrity, all it needs to be is weakened enough from the heat to collapse from it's own heat.
second favorite, you can see puffs of smoke coming out of windows as it collapes showing the mini explosions the gov planted to aid the collapse
answer, when you have a building full of dry materials such as dry wall collapsing and compressing it is going to make dust, that dust will be jettisoned out the nearest hole, or basically glass that is breaking as the pressure cracks the windows
I know we can argue this until blue, but engineering sometimes defies logic
Throughout the day today, the website Wikileaks will be publishing over half a million messages sent from text pagers on 9/11. According to the website, they range "from Pentagon and New York Police Department exchanges, to computers reporting faults to their operators as the World Trade Center collapsed." It's a little arduous sifting through all the computer gibberish in the documents, but the information contained within can be fascinating. CBS News's Dean McCullagh found messages discussing an evacuation to Mount Weather, "the government's sort-of secret bunker buried under the Virginia mountains west of Washington, D.C." He finds another that warned of a threat to Air Force One, and even one that seemed to celebrate the death of a disliked business executive onboard one of the doomed flights. Other texts refer to a bomb going off in the World Trade Center and military planes forcing down a commercial jet
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I saw a show on debunking 9/11 myths the other day and it pretty much showed how ignorant the conspiarcy theorist are
my favorite is: How does a steel building collapse from the heat of a fire below Steel's melting point?
we the answer is pretty clear It doesn't need to melt all the way to lose structural integrity, all it needs to be is weakened enough from the heat to collapse from it's own heat.
second favorite, you can see puffs of smoke coming out of windows as it collapes showing the mini explosions the gov planted to aid the collapse
answer, when you have a building full of dry materials such as dry wall collapsing and compressing it is going to make dust, that dust will be jettisoned out the nearest hole, or basically glass that is breaking as the pressure cracks the windows
I know we can argue this until blue, but engineering sometimes defies logic
Answer: Fear. For G.W. to launch a War on Terror, he first had to make sure that we were filled with terror.
It has worked nicely, thanks.
Like I keep saying, the U.S. does not need "legitimate" reasons to go to war. They just make up a reason or call it "democratizing" a corrupt government or saving a righteous government from its "radicalists" (communists, socialists, taliban, etc). This has been the case since the era of Wilsonian Idealism beginning in 1917 and escalating during the Reagan administration (see Nicraugua, Liberia, Guatemala, et al).
So, that means the government doesn't need to do much except have good "storytellers" to influence the thoughts of the stupid people who still believe in government.
Which means that they don't need to create the most elaborate conspiracy in the history of mankind in order to invade Afghanistan (which never was their priority).
Iraq has nothing to do with this and never was fought because of 9/11. People (still) think this but that just shows how retarded people are.
Cynical rant over.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I saw a show on debunking 9/11 myths the other day and it pretty much showed how ignorant the conspiarcy theorist are
my favorite is: How does a steel building collapse from the heat of a fire below Steel's melting point?
we the answer is pretty clear It doesn't need to melt all the way to lose structural integrity, all it needs to be is weakened enough from the heat to collapse from it's own heat.
second favorite, you can see puffs of smoke coming out of windows as it collapes showing the mini explosions the gov planted to aid the collapse
answer, when you have a building full of dry materials such as dry wall collapsing and compressing it is going to make dust, that dust will be jettisoned out the nearest hole, or basically glass that is breaking as the pressure cracks the windows
I know we can argue this until blue, but engineering sometimes defies logic
I vote no on the conspiracy by the gov
I give common sense a :thumbup:
You can stick that ignorant thumbs up straight up your as-! The buildings fell at near free fall speed. Use your "common sense" on that. If the floors collapsed and pancaked it would have fell in 90 seconds, they dropped in under 15. This proves a controlled demolition. So continue your ignorance or wake up.
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DO THE EVOLUTION - a 20th Anniversary Tribute Celebration
of PEARL JAM - WORLD CAFE LIVE PHILLY JUNE 19th 7pm
Like I keep saying, the U.S. does not need "legitimate" reasons to go to war. They just make up a reason or call it "democratizing" a corrupt government or saving a righteous government from its "radicalists" (communists, socialists, taliban, etc). This has been the case since the era of Wilsonian Idealism beginning in 1917 and escalating during the Reagan administration (see Nicraugua, Liberia, Guatemala, et al).
So, that means the government doesn't need to do much except have good "storytellers" to influence the thoughts of the stupid people who still believe in government.
Which means that they don't need to create the most elaborate conspiracy in the history of mankind in order to invade Afghanistan (which never was their priority).
Iraq has nothing to do with this and never was fought because of 9/11. People (still) think this but that just shows how retarded people are.
Cynical rant over.
that's not true ... yes, the US do not need a reason to get involved in other countries ... but they have to do it covertly using the CIA or something ... but to do what they are doing in Iraq now - which is basically taking over the oil supply ... there had to be a 9/11 ...
the US and British have been desperate to get that oil back since they nationalized it way back when ... kuwait was the opening they've been looking for ... but it wasn't enough ...
I saw a show on debunking 9/11 myths the other day and it pretty much showed how ignorant the conspiarcy theorist are
my favorite is: How does a steel building collapse from the heat of a fire below Steel's melting point?
we the answer is pretty clear It doesn't need to melt all the way to lose structural integrity, all it needs to be is weakened enough from the heat to collapse from it's own heat.
second favorite, you can see puffs of smoke coming out of windows as it collapes showing the mini explosions the gov planted to aid the collapse
answer, when you have a building full of dry materials such as dry wall collapsing and compressing it is going to make dust, that dust will be jettisoned out the nearest hole, or basically glass that is breaking as the pressure cracks the windows
I know we can argue this until blue, but engineering sometimes defies logic
I vote no on the conspiracy by the gov
I give common sense a :thumbup:
You can stick that ignorant thumbs up straight up your as-! The buildings fell at near free fall speed. Use your "common sense" on that. If the floors collapsed and pancaked it would have fell in 90 seconds, they dropped in under 15. This proves a controlled demolition. So continue your ignorance or wake up.
Science, Engineering, and 1000s of studies > Ryanevolution, Charlie Sheen and a couple curious kids with a camera.
Right.
1. "Science" says that if the towers fell at "free fall" speed (which means "no resistance", which means a controlled demolition) that time would be 9 seconds. The buildings hit the ground between 11-15 seconds. Near free fall speed. IF the floors had pancaked, as is the official story, "science" says that would have taken 90 seconds plus. THAT is the science. (show me your science or reasoning by the way, oh thats right, you have none)
2. "Engineering" the building was made to withstand airplane impacts. It was engineered that way. How in the world then do two towers completely structurally fail?
3. "1000's of studies" Laughable. Site ONE.
4. "Couple curious kids with a camera" - No, only 30 year veteran employees of the towers, career firemen and police officers, and eyewitnesses who said bombs went off, explosions inside the building. Not to mention the video footage of the third, unhit building being dropped by a controlled demolition.
and beyond all that...the forensic evidence of thermite everywhere, the twisted steel girders comp[letely burned through with thermite and the more intense thermate.
for example...
do you see the diagnol burn through solid steel. That is a controlled demoltion fuckwad. Here is the proof. You have conjecture with nothing to back it up.
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DO THE EVOLUTION - a 20th Anniversary Tribute Celebration
of PEARL JAM - WORLD CAFE LIVE PHILLY JUNE 19th 7pm
Ryan - I'm not going to debate this issue with you, but have you even seen the show the other poster is referring too? I mean, seeing it will either disprove things you believe or strengthen your belief/facts in your favor or maybe even make you think of a few things you haven't previously seen/heard or thought of. This could be a generalization, but seems to me, many people in life are too quick to leave their minds open to the possibility of being proven wrong or even argued against on a particular issue or subject manner. Not saying you're not entitled to believe whatever you like, but the more details, facts and information on a subject a person has, the more it emboldens their opinion and proof of it. Just my 2 cents.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
What?! I am presenting physical facts. Which prove the point of controlled demolition. I am assessing no blame or guessing who is behind it, other than it was an inside job, and the official story is bullshit.
My science is physics. The building fell between 11 and 15 seconds. This ALONE proves the official story completely false, there is no way the floors pancaked and hit each other in a collapsing fashion. The core and floors were blown out.
You all on the other side simply talk garbage about theories of debating. Bring a single fact to the table.
Evolution Music Studios presents:
DO THE EVOLUTION - a 20th Anniversary Tribute Celebration
of PEARL JAM - WORLD CAFE LIVE PHILLY JUNE 19th 7pm
Not to be dismissive, but are you physicist or have real world experience in this field - enough to have a legitimate comment on the matter? Any joe schmoe can have an opinion and back it up with half-truthes or point to another person's comments (which I do know there are some in the field which back your claims and many on the other side who do not).. but do you specifically have experience to be so overly dismissive about a field and action which probably a great deal of us do not? I merely offered the option of hearing out further details and you automatically shot it down? What could further details and information do other than help find out the truth of what occurred?
What?! I am presenting physical facts. Which prove the point of controlled demolition. I am assessing no blame or guessing who is behind it, other than it was an inside job, and the official story is bullshit.
My science is physics. The building fell between 11 and 15 seconds. This ALONE proves the official story completely false, there is no way the floors pancaked and hit each other in a collapsing fashion. The core and floors were blown out.
You all on the other side simply talk garbage about theories of debating. Bring a single fact to the table.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Will you at least admit your theories biggest advocates inculde Rosie O'Donnell, Charlie Sheen and a couple uneducated kids ? hahaha. Some brilliant minds.
Edit: I am really not getting back involved in this. Had a couple beers and this dude annoyed me. Is it also any surpise that someone that suscribes to these theories resorts to name calling in almost every post?
What?! I am presenting physical facts. Which prove the point of controlled demolition. I am assessing no blame or guessing who is behind it, other than it was an inside job, and the official story is bullshit.
My science is physics. The building fell between 11 and 15 seconds. This ALONE proves the official story completely false, there is no way the floors pancaked and hit each other in a collapsing fashion. The core and floors were blown out.
You all on the other side simply talk garbage about theories of debating. Bring a single fact to the table.
How about the fact that there are 200+ people missing that went down in the PA field.
How about the fact that pilots reported they were being hijacked to the airport towers.
How about the fact that there is video after video of OUR planes hitting the buildings.
How about the fact that Osama is on video admitting to being responsible.
How about the fact that many people called their loved ones to tell them what was happening.
How about the fact that there were records found from Al Qaida terorists showing how they were planning this out.
How about the fact that your 9 second theory isn't even true.
How about the fact that Gitmo detainees never denied it or claim that your theory is reality.
How about the fact that many american families are missing their loved ones that were on them planes.
Your fact is based on how fast two buildings fell that were built exactly the same. How many years ago?
You tell me to stick my thumb up my ass for believing in common sense.....you are a freak. You simply want to try to blame our government because that seems exciting to you. Get a life.
What?! I am presenting physical facts. Which prove the point of controlled demolition. I am assessing no blame or guessing who is behind it, other than it was an inside job, and the official story is bullshit.
My science is physics. The building fell between 11 and 15 seconds. This ALONE proves the official story completely false, there is no way the floors pancaked and hit each other in a collapsing fashion. The core and floors were blown out.
You all on the other side simply talk garbage about theories of debating. Bring a single fact to the table.
How about the fact that there are 200+ people missing that went down in the PA field.
How about the fact that pilots reported they were being hijacked to the airport towers.
How about the fact that there is video after video of OUR planes hitting the buildings.
How about the fact that Osama is on video admitting to being responsible.
How about the fact that many people called their loved ones to tell them what was happening.
How about the fact that there were records found from Al Qaida terorists showing how they were planning this out.
How about the fact that your 9 second theory isn't even true.
How about the fact that Gitmo detainees never denied it or claim that your theory is reality.
How about the fact that many american families are missing their loved ones that were on them planes.
Your fact is based on how fast two buildings fell that were built exactly the same. How many years ago?
You tell me to stick my thumb up my ass for believing in common sense.....you are a freak. You simply want to try to blame our government because that seems exciting to you. Get a life.
can you discredit the rate of falling of these buildings? common sense tells me that they should not free fall since there is resistance from the lower floors...i am not a physicist, bt that seems fishy to my eyes...
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
What?! I am presenting physical facts. Which prove the point of controlled demolition. I am assessing no blame or guessing who is behind it, other than it was an inside job, and the official story is bullshit.
My science is physics. The building fell between 11 and 15 seconds. This ALONE proves the official story completely false, there is no way the floors pancaked and hit each other in a collapsing fashion. The core and floors were blown out.
You all on the other side simply talk garbage about theories of debating. Bring a single fact to the table.
How about the fact that there are 200+ people missing that went down in the PA field.
How about the fact that pilots reported they were being hijacked to the airport towers.
How about the fact that there is video after video of OUR planes hitting the buildings.
How about the fact that Osama is on video admitting to being responsible.
How about the fact that many people called their loved ones to tell them what was happening.
How about the fact that there were records found from Al Qaida terorists showing how they were planning this out.
How about the fact that your 9 second theory isn't even true.
How about the fact that Gitmo detainees never denied it or claim that your theory is reality.
How about the fact that many american families are missing their loved ones that were on them planes.
Your fact is based on how fast two buildings fell that were built exactly the same. How many years ago?
You tell me to stick my thumb up my ass for believing in common sense.....you are a freak. You simply want to try to blame our government because that seems exciting to you. Get a life.
Tip of the hat to your sir, we don't agree on many things but I tip my cap to this post.
there's things that don't add up. yes, absolutely there are. but, If there was any conspiracy at all, it was that the Bush administration probably knew of the planned attack well in advance and did nothing to stop it. bottom line is they lied. they screwed up either through incompetency or because they were assuming and hoping (correctly) that the outcry would enable us to go to war.
Your fact is based on how fast two buildings fell that were built exactly the same. How many years ago?
people seem to forget 3 buildings fell that day at near free fall speed, including 1 that wasn't hit by a plane or jet fuel
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
For better or for worse, I have not studied Sept. 11 because other issues are closer to my heart (Like the R.I Station Nightclub Fire.) But back when I relied on the mainstream media for "news," I accepted 4 of the 5 following points:
How about the fact that there are 200+ people missing that went down in the PA field.
How about the fact that pilots reported they were being hijacked to the airport towers.
How about the fact that there is video after video of OUR planes hitting the buildings.
How about the fact that Osama is on video admitting to being responsible.
How about the fact that many people called their loved ones to tell them what was happening.
The story about the Pennsylvania crash was a little too much for me to swallow, even in 2001. We were meant to believe that that crash was the first one EVER in the history of all plane crashes to leave no dead bodies, body parts, or charred corpses. All of the passengers simply evaporated into the air. Right. Yup. Okay.
These days, I watch independent media on the internet instead of the good old ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX/CNN, etc. The two points of view could hardly be more opposing:
Point 1. Mainstream Media showed the PA crash as a hole on the ground with no plane parts and no dead. Indie media shows reports from that day with the press being denied access to the first crash site, and later being redirected to the "official" site several miles away. What was secreted at the first locale? Perhaps a large plane on the ground filled with dead people? There are also reports that this plane did not simply crash, it was shot down.
Point 5. MSM filled our imaginations with heroic images of the passengers overpowering the hijackers. "Let's roll!" Yet gov't documents have proven that the passengers' cellular phones did not work from altitude, and the in-flight airphones were never used.
Point 2. Pilots reported hijackings. There were real and fictional hijackings being called in to air traffic control. The military was conducting exercises that put fake "blips" on radar screens which were indistinguishable from real aeroplanes. You can find audio of air traffic control asking the military to please remove the imaginary planes.
Point 3. We saw US planes flown into WTC. The teachers who had the hijackers in their flight schools swore that the men could barely fly tiny private planes, they were NOTcapable of piloting 747s with the expert manouvres we all witnessed.
point 4. Osama. Who knows? Anyone can be used to say anything. Audio can be faked, experts can manipulate footage.
The Pentagon: Watch Norman Mineta's testimony in front of Congress about Dick Cheney refusing to authorise fighter jets to protect DC. Look at photos of the Pentagon immediately after it was struck. Before the facade of the building fell, the hole is much too small for anything remotely as huge as a 747 to have gone through.
Remember some news from Sept. 10. 2001 that massive sums of money had disappeared from various gov't agencies? It would have been the leading story in the following days.
I have no idea who is right. I don't know enough one way or the other to call any of these stories "Facts."
For better or for worse, I have not studied Sept. 11 because other issues are closer to my heart (Like the R.I Station Nightclub Fire.) But back when I relied on the mainstream media for "news," I accepted 4 of the 5 following points:
How about the fact that there are 200+ people missing that went down in the PA field.
How about the fact that pilots reported they were being hijacked to the airport towers.
How about the fact that there is video after video of OUR planes hitting the buildings.
How about the fact that Osama is on video admitting to being responsible.
How about the fact that many people called their loved ones to tell them what was happening.
The story about the Pennsylvania crash was a little too much for me to swallow, even in 2001. We were meant to believe that that crash was the first one EVER in the history of all plane crashes to leave no dead bodies, body parts, or charred corpses. All of the passengers simply evaporated into the air. Right. Yup. Okay.
These days, I watch independent media on the internet instead of the good old ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX/CNN, etc. The two points of view could hardly be more opposing:
Point 1. Mainstream Media showed the PA crash as a hole on the ground with no plane parts and no dead. Indie media shows reports from that day with the press being denied access to the first crash site, and later being redirected to the "official" site several miles away. What was secreted at the first locale? Perhaps a large plane on the ground filled with dead people? There are also reports that this plane did not simply crash, it was shot down.
Point 5. MSM filled our imaginations with heroic images of the passengers overpowering the hijackers. "Let's roll!" Yet gov't documents have proven that the passengers' cellular phones did not work from altitude, and the in-flight airphones were never used.
Point 2. Pilots reported hijackings. There were real and fictional hijackings being called in to air traffic control. The military was conducting exercises that put fake "blips" on radar screens which were indistinguishable from real aeroplanes. You can find audio of air traffic control asking the military to please remove the imaginary planes.
Point 3. We saw US planes flown into WTC. The teachers who had the hijackers in their flight schools swore that the men could barely fly tiny private planes, they were NOTcapable of piloting 747s with the expert manouvres we all witnessed.
point 4. Osama. Who knows? Anyone can be used to say anything. Audio can be faked, experts can manipulate footage.
The Pentagon: Watch Norman Mineta's testimony in front of Congress about Dick Cheney refusing to authorise fighter jets to protect DC. Look at photos of the Pentagon immediately after it was struck. Before the facade of the building fell, the hole is much too small for anything remotely as huge as a 747 to have gone through.
Remember some news from Sept. 10. 2001 that massive sums of money had disappeared from various gov't agencies? It would have been the leading story in the following days.
I have no idea who is right. I don't know enough one way or the other to call any of these stories "Facts."
can anyone cite me a single source of the boxcutters?? because the only source i have ever been able to find came from Barbara Olson who called her husband and told him the hijackers had boxcutters....the only problem is in KSM's trial the FBI admitted this was a lie. her cell phone never connected a call to anyone and she never used the the skyphone or whatever it's called on the plane. so, why would this guy lie about getting a call from his wife saying they had boxcutters??
and on 9/10 rummy gave a statement that they have discovered TRILLIONS are unaccounted for in the defense budget over the years, they have no idea where the money went to....he swore the following day they would start a thorough investigation to find out where it went but that got pushed aside after what happened the next day and never picked it back up. i guess trillions of taxpayer money vanishing isn't that big a deal to some...
"They [find a lot] and any number of terrorist efforts have been dissuaded, deterred or stopped by good intelligence gathering and good preventive work. It is a truth that a terrorist can attack any time, any place, using any technique and it's physically impossible to defend at every time and every place against every conceivable technique. Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center."
also this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/se ... er11.usa12
The US defence department reacted to warnings immediately before Tuesday's attack with a mixture of chaos and confusion that could have cost lives at the Pentagon, it emerged yesterday.
The American military air defence command was told by the federal aviation administration that a hijacked commercial airliner was heading towards Washington 12 minutes before it hit. But during that crucial time the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, and his top aides remained unaware of any imminent danger.
Defence command also failed to inform Pentagon authorities responsible for guarding the building and so no steps were taken to order an evacuation or otherwise alert the building's 20,000 employees.
Rumsfeld had NO IDEA we were under attack!?!? the sec of defense isn't included that another hijacked plane was being tracked on it's way to dc penetrating the trillion $ defense, making a u-turn, penetrating the space again and hitting the pentagon and no one ever tells rummy???
at the very least if there wasn't any collusion the administration proved themselves to be incompetent that day
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
idk...i'm not saying i believe that the govt was behind it, but the whole jfk thing always has to sit in the back of your head as an american. our govt does a lotta shit that we never hear about.
i have seen this documentary and when I did, all I said was No Shit... because the day the incident happened that is precisely what I figured...and given US govt and CIA history, this really ain;t that far fetched to the outside world...
I'm no physicist either, but I read somewhere that the top floors fell at least one story in freefall and impacted the lower sections with a force equivalent to over thirty times their own weight. So, I am just assuming that the sheer force and gravity caused these buildings to fall faster than one would have expected.
I can't believe some of the conspiracy theory garbage I am reading in these pages. I had to go back and watch a video of those planes fly into the towers to remeind myself of the horrors of that day. There were children on those planes for godsake. I think there were even a few infants. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear people saying that our government had anything to do with it. :evil:
yeah,a third building fell that day.. umm, hello, there were severly intense fires spewing nearby, spraying of debris for blocks and blocks, and complete chaos.
And if I hear one more person say, "oh gee, did you see that hole in the pentagon? there's no way it was big enough for a 747!" ..im gonna puke my breakfast up. I love hearing that one because, yeah it's like everyday that i see buildings with 747's flying into them! I understand the forces and physics behind a collision at 400+ mph! gimme a fucking break. :roll:
I can't believe some of the conspiracy theory garbage I am reading in these pages. I had to go back and watch a video of those planes fly into the towers to remeind myself of the horrors of that day. There were children on those planes for godsake. I think there were even a few infants. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear people saying that our government had anything to do with it. :evil:
2 wars have spawned from that fateful day ... wars which have killed thousands upon thousands of innocent children ... the truth may not be what you want to hear ... but the truth is what will prevent this from happening again ... i'm not saying you are wrong in your beliefs - only that to simply just accept the official story will do nothing to prevent innocent lives from dying in the future ...
2 wars have spawned from that fateful day ... wars which have killed thousands upon thousands of innocent children ... the truth may not be what you want to hear ... but the truth is what will prevent this from happening again ... i'm not saying you are wrong in your beliefs - only that to simply just accept the official story will do nothing to prevent innocent lives from dying in the future ...
And yet the complete lack of convincing evidence for 9-11 conspiracy theories looms large. It is not clear to me how slippery logic and going to the other extreme will save lives either.
Exactly... there's plenty of things for which we do not know answers or have uncertainties about, but it doesn't mean we should rush to judgment and make a leap to some extreme view on that matter. This apparently to many is the way to the truth.. which is a shame.
And yet the complete lack of convincing evidence for 9-11 conspiracy theories looms large. It is not clear to me how slippery logic and going to the other extreme will save lives either.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
2 wars have spawned from that fateful day ... wars which have killed thousands upon thousands of innocent children ... the truth may not be what you want to hear ... but the truth is what will prevent this from happening again ... i'm not saying you are wrong in your beliefs - only that to simply just accept the official story will do nothing to prevent innocent lives from dying in the future ...
And yet the complete lack of convincing evidence for 9-11 conspiracy theories looms large. It is not clear to me how slippery logic and going to the other extreme will save lives either.
i believe we've already agreed that there are lot of unanswered questions - questions that likely will never be answered ...
my point was simply that we shouldn't condemm people who are seeking the truth ... especially if the truth is not what one wants to hear ...
Well I don't whole-heartedly agree with that point polaris. There's a difference between seeking truth and being cynical, skeptical or even not coming to a full conclusion on an issue or matter, compared to swinging 180% in the other direction.. and in my opinion that is what many people have done with this issue. Take a leap in 180% in a direction there's not full proof or fact of...and when you question them about this, they say everyone is in denial? Perhaps, some of us are seeking all the facts before making such a distinction or belief.
i believe we've already agreed that there are lot of unanswered questions - questions that likely will never be answered ...
my point was simply that we shouldn't condemm people who are seeking the truth ... especially if the truth is not what one wants to hear ...
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Comments
my favorite is: How does a steel building collapse from the heat of a fire below Steel's melting point?
we the answer is pretty clear It doesn't need to melt all the way to lose structural integrity, all it needs to be is weakened enough from the heat to collapse from it's own heat.
second favorite, you can see puffs of smoke coming out of windows as it collapes showing the mini explosions the gov planted to aid the collapse
answer, when you have a building full of dry materials such as dry wall collapsing and compressing it is going to make dust, that dust will be jettisoned out the nearest hole, or basically glass that is breaking as the pressure cracks the windows
I know we can argue this until blue, but engineering sometimes defies logic
I vote no on the conspiracy by the gov
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I give common sense a :thumbup:
Question: "WHY?"
Answer: Fear. For G.W. to launch a War on Terror, he first had to make sure that we were filled with terror.
It has worked nicely, thanks.
Like I keep saying, the U.S. does not need "legitimate" reasons to go to war. They just make up a reason or call it "democratizing" a corrupt government or saving a righteous government from its "radicalists" (communists, socialists, taliban, etc). This has been the case since the era of Wilsonian Idealism beginning in 1917 and escalating during the Reagan administration (see Nicraugua, Liberia, Guatemala, et al).
So, that means the government doesn't need to do much except have good "storytellers" to influence the thoughts of the stupid people who still believe in government.
Which means that they don't need to create the most elaborate conspiracy in the history of mankind in order to invade Afghanistan (which never was their priority).
Iraq has nothing to do with this and never was fought because of 9/11. People (still) think this but that just shows how retarded people are.
Cynical rant over.
You can stick that ignorant thumbs up straight up your as-! The buildings fell at near free fall speed. Use your "common sense" on that. If the floors collapsed and pancaked it would have fell in 90 seconds, they dropped in under 15. This proves a controlled demolition. So continue your ignorance or wake up.
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that's not true ... yes, the US do not need a reason to get involved in other countries ... but they have to do it covertly using the CIA or something ... but to do what they are doing in Iraq now - which is basically taking over the oil supply ... there had to be a 9/11 ...
the US and British have been desperate to get that oil back since they nationalized it way back when ... kuwait was the opening they've been looking for ... but it wasn't enough ...
Ummm, ok.....freak!
Right.
1. "Science" says that if the towers fell at "free fall" speed (which means "no resistance", which means a controlled demolition) that time would be 9 seconds. The buildings hit the ground between 11-15 seconds. Near free fall speed. IF the floors had pancaked, as is the official story, "science" says that would have taken 90 seconds plus. THAT is the science. (show me your science or reasoning by the way, oh thats right, you have none)
2. "Engineering" the building was made to withstand airplane impacts. It was engineered that way. How in the world then do two towers completely structurally fail?
3. "1000's of studies" Laughable. Site ONE.
4. "Couple curious kids with a camera" - No, only 30 year veteran employees of the towers, career firemen and police officers, and eyewitnesses who said bombs went off, explosions inside the building. Not to mention the video footage of the third, unhit building being dropped by a controlled demolition.
and beyond all that...the forensic evidence of thermite everywhere, the twisted steel girders comp[letely burned through with thermite and the more intense thermate.
for example...
do you see the diagnol burn through solid steel. That is a controlled demoltion fuckwad. Here is the proof. You have conjecture with nothing to back it up.
DO THE EVOLUTION - a 20th Anniversary Tribute Celebration
of PEARL JAM - WORLD CAFE LIVE PHILLY JUNE 19th 7pm
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
My science is physics. The building fell between 11 and 15 seconds. This ALONE proves the official story completely false, there is no way the floors pancaked and hit each other in a collapsing fashion. The core and floors were blown out.
You all on the other side simply talk garbage about theories of debating. Bring a single fact to the table.
DO THE EVOLUTION - a 20th Anniversary Tribute Celebration
of PEARL JAM - WORLD CAFE LIVE PHILLY JUNE 19th 7pm
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Meet Google
http://www.google.com
She can be your friend.
How about the pictures of workers cutting columns at an angle to control their fall? NOOOO. That cant be.
Edit: I am really not getting back involved in this. Had a couple beers and this dude annoyed me. Is it also any surpise that someone that suscribes to these theories resorts to name calling in almost every post?
How about the fact that there are 200+ people missing that went down in the PA field.
How about the fact that pilots reported they were being hijacked to the airport towers.
How about the fact that there is video after video of OUR planes hitting the buildings.
How about the fact that Osama is on video admitting to being responsible.
How about the fact that many people called their loved ones to tell them what was happening.
How about the fact that there were records found from Al Qaida terorists showing how they were planning this out.
How about the fact that your 9 second theory isn't even true.
How about the fact that Gitmo detainees never denied it or claim that your theory is reality.
How about the fact that many american families are missing their loved ones that were on them planes.
Your fact is based on how fast two buildings fell that were built exactly the same. How many years ago?
You tell me to stick my thumb up my ass for believing in common sense.....you are a freak. You simply want to try to blame our government because that seems exciting to you. Get a life.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Tip of the hat to your sir, we don't agree on many things but I tip my cap to this post.
either way, mission accomplished.
little secrets, tremors...turn to quake....
people seem to forget 3 buildings fell that day at near free fall speed, including 1 that wasn't hit by a plane or jet fuel
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
The story about the Pennsylvania crash was a little too much for me to swallow, even in 2001. We were meant to believe that that crash was the first one EVER in the history of all plane crashes to leave no dead bodies, body parts, or charred corpses. All of the passengers simply evaporated into the air. Right. Yup. Okay.
These days, I watch independent media on the internet instead of the good old ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX/CNN, etc. The two points of view could hardly be more opposing:
Point 1. Mainstream Media showed the PA crash as a hole on the ground with no plane parts and no dead. Indie media shows reports from that day with the press being denied access to the first crash site, and later being redirected to the "official" site several miles away. What was secreted at the first locale? Perhaps a large plane on the ground filled with dead people? There are also reports that this plane did not simply crash, it was shot down.
Point 5. MSM filled our imaginations with heroic images of the passengers overpowering the hijackers. "Let's roll!" Yet gov't documents have proven that the passengers' cellular phones did not work from altitude, and the in-flight airphones were never used.
Point 2. Pilots reported hijackings. There were real and fictional hijackings being called in to air traffic control. The military was conducting exercises that put fake "blips" on radar screens which were indistinguishable from real aeroplanes. You can find audio of air traffic control asking the military to please remove the imaginary planes.
Point 3. We saw US planes flown into WTC. The teachers who had the hijackers in their flight schools swore that the men could barely fly tiny private planes, they were NOTcapable of piloting 747s with the expert manouvres we all witnessed.
point 4. Osama. Who knows? Anyone can be used to say anything. Audio can be faked, experts can manipulate footage.
The Pentagon: Watch Norman Mineta's testimony in front of Congress about Dick Cheney refusing to authorise fighter jets to protect DC. Look at photos of the Pentagon immediately after it was struck. Before the facade of the building fell, the hole is much too small for anything remotely as huge as a 747 to have gone through.
Remember some news from Sept. 10. 2001 that massive sums of money had disappeared from various gov't agencies? It would have been the leading story in the following days.
I have no idea who is right. I don't know enough one way or the other to call any of these stories "Facts."
can anyone cite me a single source of the boxcutters?? because the only source i have ever been able to find came from Barbara Olson who called her husband and told him the hijackers had boxcutters....the only problem is in KSM's trial the FBI admitted this was a lie. her cell phone never connected a call to anyone and she never used the the skyphone or whatever it's called on the plane. so, why would this guy lie about getting a call from his wife saying they had boxcutters??
and on 9/10 rummy gave a statement that they have discovered TRILLIONS are unaccounted for in the defense budget over the years, they have no idea where the money went to....he swore the following day they would start a thorough investigation to find out where it went but that got pushed aside after what happened the next day and never picked it back up. i guess trillions of taxpayer money vanishing isn't that big a deal to some...
here are some interesting slip ups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3LJXoXpAHE
first a guy says: "seeing 1 of our fortresses pried open by a missile uh airplane...."
another clip of bush mentioning explosives going off
then another of rummy saying the terrorists shot down the plane in PA....??
then fox reporting of no plane debris, just a big hole
and here's an interesting quote from Rumsfeld
http://www.defense.gov/Transcripts/Tran ... iptID=3845
"They [find a lot] and any number of terrorist efforts have been dissuaded, deterred or stopped by good intelligence gathering and good preventive work. It is a truth that a terrorist can attack any time, any place, using any technique and it's physically impossible to defend at every time and every place against every conceivable technique. Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center."
also this article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/se ... er11.usa12
The US defence department reacted to warnings immediately before Tuesday's attack with a mixture of chaos and confusion that could have cost lives at the Pentagon, it emerged yesterday.
The American military air defence command was told by the federal aviation administration that a hijacked commercial airliner was heading towards Washington 12 minutes before it hit. But during that crucial time the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, and his top aides remained unaware of any imminent danger.
Defence command also failed to inform Pentagon authorities responsible for guarding the building and so no steps were taken to order an evacuation or otherwise alert the building's 20,000 employees.
Rumsfeld had NO IDEA we were under attack!?!? the sec of defense isn't included that another hijacked plane was being tracked on it's way to dc penetrating the trillion $ defense, making a u-turn, penetrating the space again and hitting the pentagon and no one ever tells rummy???
at the very least if there wasn't any collusion the administration proved themselves to be incompetent that day
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I can't believe some of the conspiracy theory garbage I am reading in these pages. I had to go back and watch a video of those planes fly into the towers to remeind myself of the horrors of that day. There were children on those planes for godsake. I think there were even a few infants. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear people saying that our government had anything to do with it.
yeah,a third building fell that day.. umm, hello, there were severly intense fires spewing nearby, spraying of debris for blocks and blocks, and complete chaos.
And if I hear one more person say, "oh gee, did you see that hole in the pentagon? there's no way it was big enough for a 747!" ..im gonna puke my breakfast up. I love hearing that one because, yeah it's like everyday that i see buildings with 747's flying into them! I understand the forces and physics behind a collision at 400+ mph! gimme a fucking break. :roll:
2 wars have spawned from that fateful day ... wars which have killed thousands upon thousands of innocent children ... the truth may not be what you want to hear ... but the truth is what will prevent this from happening again ... i'm not saying you are wrong in your beliefs - only that to simply just accept the official story will do nothing to prevent innocent lives from dying in the future ...
And yet the complete lack of convincing evidence for 9-11 conspiracy theories looms large. It is not clear to me how slippery logic and going to the other extreme will save lives either.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
i believe we've already agreed that there are lot of unanswered questions - questions that likely will never be answered ...
my point was simply that we shouldn't condemm people who are seeking the truth ... especially if the truth is not what one wants to hear ...
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis