Israeli officers disciplined

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

Pepe, I have already said this, but I have come to learn not to expect you to pay close attention to what people say. I would have no problem with an eventual Palestinian state creating a ribbon to commemorate Hamas. Or to be more precise, I might have a problem with it, but I would not be stupid enough to judge them for it. I would recognize that they have their own narrative of events and that a state has an interest in being as inclusive in its creation narrative as it can be.

As for the Israeli ribbon, it is utterly meaningless. It isn't awarded to current soldiers. It is entirely symbolic, a token to make a few old men, who have probably lived most of their lives feeling unappreciated feel recognized by their country. (I say that these men probably felt unappreciated because they were unappreciated due to the fact that the Lehi play a very minor, and to be quite honest somewhat negative role in the mainstream Israeli narrative, which is really the story of the Haganah and the Palmach.)

wow, poor guys and their families that they feel unappreciated in their reign of terror, blowing up trains, assassinating leaders and killing over 100 civilians in a village....i really feel bad for them.

i also find it odd that you can keep saying Hamas is the problem and terrorists but you wouldn't have a problem if they were commemorated for such acts.

what it says is they are commemorating the use of terrorism in the establishment of Israel, right? i do pay attention to what people say, i just think you are trying to spin it to seem meaningless when others wouldn't think of it as such. i wonder how meaningless the families of people murdered by this terrorist organization feel the ribbon in the use of terrorism in the establishment of Israel is?

yosi

What I'm saying is not that the ribbon is not offensive to certain people. I'm sure it is. But we're talking about a minor decoration, given exclusively to a very small group of veterans, 40 years after the fact. It would be like a southern state giving confederate veterans medals that commemorate their sacrifice in the civil war in the year 1900. We would disagree vehemently with what the confederacy stood for, but we'd probably recognize that the awards were purely symbolic, and weren't really relevant to the current political situation. On reflection I recognize that this analogy is obviously flawed by the fact that racism and segregation were still rampant in 1900, but what I'm trying to say is that I think you are attributing a larger significance where there really isn't any. I would bet that if you polled most Israelis they wouldn't even know that the army had a Lehi ribbon. It just isn't relevant to anything happening in the here and now.

badbrains

I'll say it and stand by it. First I am a Muslim. Secondly, I dnt think Islam is perfect.matter of fact NO religion is perfect. I may be biased towards my religion but then again who isn't. Let me give u all something about Islam. That in which I mean TRUE ISLAM. It says that ANY muslim who kills another human being will be judged by god as if he killed all of humanity. Now being that they killed not in self defense. So all those suicide bombers in cafes or buses or mosques like in Iraq, not true Muslims. When u kill u play the role of god and in Islam there is only one god. What u see or hear in the media about Islam is all bullshit. It's funny cuz I'm 34 now and ever since I was a little "dink" I was told that there will come a time when muslims all over the world will be persicuted. And now it is happening. I ask every faith out there this question- why in the world would ANY god want his creations to kill in HIS name? NOT my god and I hope to god NOT any of yours. It is sad to say but seems like every religion has had swords used in it's name. I'm begining to think gods given up on all of us cause he can easily stop all this bullshit if he really wanted to. Shit, if we can't get along on earth together, how's it going to be in heaven????? If there is such a thing.......

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

What I'm saying is not that the ribbon is not offensive to certain people. I'm sure it is. But we're talking about a minor decoration, given exclusively to a very small group of veterans, 40 years after the fact. It would be like a southern state giving confederate veterans medals that commemorate their sacrifice in the civil war in the year 1900. We would disagree vehemently with what the confederacy stood for, but we'd probably recognize that the awards were purely symbolic, and weren't really relevant to the current political situation. On reflection I recognize that this analogy is obviously flawed by the fact that racism and segregation were still rampant in 1900, but what I'm trying to say is that I think you are attributing a larger significance where there really isn't any. I would bet that if you polled most Israelis they wouldn't even know that the army had a Lehi ribbon. It just isn't relevant to anything happening in the here and now.

to you and 'most Israeli's' having a ribbon commemorating a terrorist organization for their role in the creation and establishment of Israel may not be a big deal but i'm willing to bet to Palestinians it is felt differently. i wonder how the relatives who had their families wiped out by the Lehi feel? i wonder if the families of the innocent people blown up on trains would feel differently, too. i wonder how family members of native americans would feel if there was some ribbon for giving disease ridden blankets out?

you have to look at the bigger picture. what is the intention? to honor a terrorist organization that murdered 100s of innocent people in the creation and establishment of a country illegally occupying someone else's land.
it adds up on top of all the abuse by the IDF. and it doesn't matter how isolated you want to argue abuses are, the fact remains there is NO PUNISHMENT for them!

and hey, i don't try to imply every single member of the IDF abuse people but the ones who do are allowed to get away with it. do you think they have any encouragement to stop? or do you think they will continue to do behave that way and others who think similarly will bet since nothing happened to anyone else nothing will happen to them.

these officers ordered white phosphorus shells to be fired over and on top of a UN building housing over 700 Palestinians, that is a crime and illegal no matter how you try to spin it. it doesn't matter if it was to illuminate or cover, it was fired at an area with a lot of innocent people.

if i take a machine gun to a park and start shooting, can i claim i fired over all the kids heads, i didn't hit anyone, what's the big deal??

no, i'd be in jail. what they did was a war crime and the repercussion for a war crime according to Israel is a post it note placed in their file. who knows, maybe in 30 years they'll give them a special ribbon for it

you say political situation...so who were they playing to, exactly? people who support the mentality the Lehi had that god promised the land to them so they can take it violently?

rebornFixer

badbrains wrote:

I'll say it and stand by it. First I am a Muslim. Secondly, I dnt think Islam is perfect.matter of fact NO religion is perfect. I may be biased towards my religion but then again who isn't. Let me give u all something about Islam. That in which I mean TRUE ISLAM. It says that ANY muslim who kills another human being will be judged by god as if he killed all of humanity. Now being that they killed not in self defense. So all those suicide bombers in cafes or buses or mosques like in Iraq, not true Muslims. When u kill u play the role of god and in Islam there is only one god. What u see or hear in the media about Islam is all bullshit. It's funny cuz I'm 34 now and ever since I was a little "dink" I was told that there will come a time when muslims all over the world will be persicuted. And now it is happening. I ask every faith out there this question- why in the world would ANY god want his creations to kill in HIS name? NOT my god and I hope to god NOT any of yours. It is sad to say but seems like every religion has had swords used in it's name. I'm begining to think gods given up on all of us cause he can easily stop all this bullshit if he really wanted to. Shit, if we can't get along on earth together, how's it going to be in heaven????? If there is such a thing.......

Well, as we discussed over PMs, the namecalling is unproductive and makes us both look bad. At the end of the day, you are not a dink and I am not a fucking joke. I will say that this post is pretty well on the mark, from my perspective. Every religion has its swords, and I feel pretty much the same way about a Christian nut who shoots an abortion doctor as I do about a Muslim who kills infidels in God's name. I have a ton of respect for those Muslims who live peaceful lives. I attended mosque recently with the family of a friend from work, and it was good for me to interact with Muslim folks who come across as level-headed, intelligent, and deeply sensitive people. I probably was influenced by things like the death threats that occur in response to some political cartoons, and I will admit that the Western media focuses on these sorts of problems and not the statistical norm in this case. In short, I am trying to work on opening my mind. Thanks for your post.