Israeli officers disciplined

flywallyfly

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 010851.ece

Two named Israeli officers "jeopardised" human life by firing white phosphorus shells at a compound run by the UN, according to a report by the Israeli Defence Force.

Brigadier General Eyal Eisenberg and Brigade Commander Colonel Ilan Malka were singled out by a Israeli special command investigation, which found the two men guilty of "exceeding their authority in a manner than jeopardised the lives of others".

It is the first time high-ranking military officers have been named as having been reprimanded for their actions during last year’s Gaza War.

The results of the investigation, which were provided to the UN over the weekend as a response to the Goldstone Report, found that the two men were responsible for firing shells at the UN headquarters where more than 700 Palestinians had taken shelter.

The officers have been handed a mild reprimand in the form of a "note" placed in their personal files noting their involvement in the incident, explained a senior Israeli official who called the punishment a "slap on the wrist".

Captain Barak Raz, an Israeli military spokesman, said: "We have been investigating everything that occurred during Operation Cast Lead. While these human rights organisations help us by bringing to attention certain claims, we investigate other incidents as well."

He said the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had launched 150 investigations into its conduct during the 22-day war it waged in the Gaza Strip last winter, including 20 criminal investigations. "Several of these investigations, including field investigations are still open. We don’t know where it will lead."

Dozens of human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have accused Israel of violating the rules of warfare in Gaza. Israel’s use of white phosphorous has come under investigation.

Although white phosphorus is not mentioned in the reprimands of the two officers, the Israeli report mentions elsewhere that the munitions were in use.

The 155mm shells disperse hundreds of pieces of felt soaked in the incendiary chemical, which sticks to buildings and flesh and burns for many hours, causing appalling injuries.

The Israeli government report concedes that one UN relief and works agency employee and at least two Palestinian civilians taking shelter in the UN compound were hurt.

A high-ranking UN official in Gaza told The Times today that over half a dozen unexploded IDF shells were found in the UN compound, all with serial numbers identifying them as white phosphorus.

redrock

flywallyfly wrote:

The officers have been handed a mild reprimand in the form of a "note" placed in their personal files noting their involvement in the incident, explained a senior Israeli official who called the punishment a "slap on the wrist".

:roll:

Pepe Silvia

not so fast, wally

i also like that Alan Dershowitz calls Godlstone a traitor to his people :roll:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1146638.html

IDF denies disciplining top officers over white phosphorous use in Gaza war
The Israel Defense Forces on Monday denied that two of its senior officers had been summoned for disciplinary action after headquarters staff found that the men exceeded their authority in approving the use of phosphorus shells during last year's military campaign in the Gaza Strip, as the Israeli government wrote in a recent report.

In an official response provided to the United Nations over the weekend in response to last September's Goldstone Commission report, the government said that a brigadier general and another officer with the rank of colonel endangered human life during by firing white phosphorous munitions in the direction of a compound run by UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency.

The government finding aknowledges, at least in part, allegations by international organizations.
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But the IDF on Monday flatly denied that Division Commander Brig. Gen. Eyal Eisenberg and Givati Brigade Commander Col. Ilan Malka been subject to disciplinary action by GOC Southern Command Maj. Gen. Yoav Gallant. It did not deny that the munitions were in fact used during the war, however.

The incident in question occurred on January 15 of last year, two days before the end of Operation Cast Lead, in the southern Gaza City neighborhood of Tel al-Hawa, at a time when the Givati brigade and other Israeli forces were in the area.

In the course of engagement with a Hamas squad, which according to IDF intelligence possessed advanced anti-tank missiles, it was decided to use phosphorus smoke munitions to create cover that would make it harder for the Hamas fighters to see the IDF soldiers.

According to Israeli intelligence, the Hamas forces were stationed in a commanding location from which they could easily see the soldiers and the UNRWA compound that was located between the Israeli forces and the Hamas position.

The munitions disperse hundreds of pieces of felt impregnated with phosphorus and at least some of the pieces fell into the UNRWA compound, causing injury to an UNRWA employee there as well as to two Palestinian civilians who took cover at the location.

Many human rights organizations said that the IDF had illegally used the phosphorus munitions, which are shot from 155 mm. cannon, and that the material caused many burn injuries among the Palestinian population. The IDF responded that the munitions were permitted under international conventions and that similar shells are in use by other Western armies. The army also contended that the munitions were used in locations remote from heavily -populated areas.

With the conclusion of Operation Cast Lead, IDF Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi ordered the convening of five special investigative committees each headed by an officer with the rank of colonel to examine some of the serious allegations leveled against the army. One of the committees examined the use of phosphorus shells.

After three months, at the end of April of last year, then deputy chief of staff Maj. Gen. Dan Harel presented the committees' findings and with respect to phosphorus munitions said that they had found no instances in which shells were fired in violation of orders and in any event, they were fired in open areas.

Nonetheless, the report that the Israeli government gave to the United Nations last Friday explicitly states that the two senior officers were disciplined after one of the investigating committees noted among its findings that they approved the firing of phosphorus shells at Tel al-Hawa "exceeding their authority in a manner that jeopardized the lives of others."

The report to the UN also says that Ashkenazi recently ordered the convening of a sixth committee to examine additional allegations made against the IDF as well as an incident which one of the previous panels had been unable to thoroughly probe.

The investigative teams have been looking into only the most serious and prominent of the allegations made as a result of Cast Lead. This is in addition to military police probes that were carried out, or are still in progress, into about 150 alleged incidents of improper conduct on the part of soldiers involving civilians and Palestinian property during the Gaza campaign.

Some of the incidents were raised in operational IDF debriefings held after Cast Lead, but most came to light following complaints by human rights organizations, individual Palestinian civilians and press reports. Twelve incidents were raised for the first time in the Goldstone Commission report, which was commissioned by the UN Human Rights Council.

In the course of the IDF investigations, about 500 soldiers were questioned and nearly 100 Palestinian civilians were interviewed at the Erez checkpoint on the Israel-Gaza border. As a result of the IDF's investigations, 36 criminal investigation files have been opened so far, but criminal legal proceedings have so far been opened in only one case, in which two Givati brigade soldiers were convicted of stealing a Palestinian civilian's credit card.

Dershowitz: Goldstone is a traitor to the Jews

Prominent political commentator and pro-Israel campaigner Professor Alan Dershowitz slammed jurist Richard Goldstone, the architect of a UN report which accuses Israel of Gaza war crimes, calling him a traitor to the Jewish people, Army Radio reported yesterday. Dershowitz and Goldstone were colleagues and close friends for many years before the UN Gaza probe, but once Goldstone published his report the ties between the two were severed. (Haaretz Staff)

yosi

At least Dershowitz isn't trying to have Goldstone killed, which is what happens to Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel. (By the way, not that it should have to be said, not an endorsement of Dershowitz's comment.)

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

At least Dershowitz isn't trying to have Goldstone killed, which is what happens to Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel. (By the way, not that it should have to be said, not an endorsement of Dershowitz's comment.)

i know, they should take the moral highground and just shoot white phosphorus shells where several hundred civilians are taking shelter.... :roll:

yosi

Leaving aside your comparison, which has nothing to do with anything discussed so far in this thread, NO, they should simply stop lynching people in the street without trial.

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

Leaving aside your comparison, which has nothing to do with anything discussed so far in this thread, NO, they should simply stop lynching people in the street without trial.

not sure how that correlates to the IDF may or may not have disciplined 2 officers who ordered the white phosphorus shells used over a UN shelter of over 700 Palestinians which burned some and some UN workers....

isn't it illegal to use them in populated areas?

flywallyfly

I dont understand how they can "discipline" a war crime with a bad note sticky in their file. That is like a giant middle finger pointed at the Palestinians. No wonder those IDF idiots continue to murder at will.

edit: just saw the other article - unbelievable that they admit they used phosphorous but no one was disciplined. Wow.

acrossssSsssshittt

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

Leaving aside your comparison, which has nothing to do with anything discussed so far in this thread, NO, they should simply stop lynching people in the street without trial.

not sure how that correlates to the IDF may or may not have disciplined 2 officers who ordered the white phosphorus shells used over a UN shelter of over 700 Palestinians which burned some and some UN workers....

isn't it illegal to use them in populated areas?

alas the question of legality means fuck all in these "righteous" wars...

yosi

From what I understand the weapons themselves are legal, and the question hinges on the context of their use, in this case how densely populated the area was. There seem to be conflicting accounts about this, some saying it was a densely populated area, others that the area was only lightly populated. I'm honestly not sure which account is correct, but from what I understand, and I don't think this has been mentioned yet, only 3 people have been shown to have been hurt (and not killed) by this white phosphorous stuff, which would suggest that we're talking about an isolated case. So look, I'll admit that I'm not sure what to make of this accusation, but from what I can gather even if true the "crime" seems much less severe than it has been portrayed on this board.

yosi

flywallyfly wrote:

I dont understand how they can "discipline" a war crime with a bad note sticky in their file. That is like a giant middle finger pointed at the Palestinians. No wonder those IDF idiots continue to murder at will.

How much can you tell me about the IDF without first looking anything up?

acrossssSsssshittt

in fact, given the corrupted systems, the process wherein particular acts of war are found to be legal or not, is anyway full of shit so...

rebornFixer

flywallyfly wrote:

I dont understand how they can "discipline" a war crime with a bad note sticky in their file. That is like a giant middle finger pointed at the Palestinians. No wonder those IDF idiots continue to murder at will.

The hyperbole on here is apparently contagious.

flywallyfly

rebornFixer wrote:

flywallyfly wrote:

I dont understand how they can "discipline" a war crime with a bad note sticky in their file. That is like a giant middle finger pointed at the Palestinians. No wonder those IDF idiots continue to murder at will.

The hyperbole on here is apparently contagious.

Not really. This situation has been talked about at length for years on this board. Glad you experts are here to set everyone's opinion straight. :roll:

rebornFixer

yosi wrote:

From what I understand the weapons themselves are legal, and the question hinges on the context of their use, in this case how densely populated the area was. There seem to be conflicting accounts about this, some saying it was a densely populated area, others that the area was only lightly populated. I'm honestly not sure which account is correct, but from what I understand, and I don't think this has been mentioned yet, only 3 people have been shown to have been hurt (and not killed) by this white phosphorous stuff, which would suggest that we're talking about an isolated case. So look, I'll admit that I'm not sure what to make of this accusation, but from what I can gather even if true the "crime" seems much less severe than it has been portrayed on this board.

I won't try to argue that WP is safe, but I will say that its used largely for battlefield illumination. I am not surprised that few deaths have been directly linked to its use. If heavy civilian casualties was the goal, there would be "better" choices than WP rounds (better in quotes for obvious reasons). Cluster bombs are a much bigger problem, for instance, in that they litter unexploded munitions every which way for people to later pick up or step on. I think that DU and WP are "hot button topics" because these munitions sound like uber-nasty inhumane weapons, because of potential chemical effects and very low levels of ambient radiation. The truth is that cluster bombs are a much bigger threat, not to mention landmines (I don't think the latter are a big issue in Palestine, though).

flywallyfly

yosi wrote:

flywallyfly wrote:

I dont understand how they can "discipline" a war crime with a bad note sticky in their file. That is like a giant middle finger pointed at the Palestinians. No wonder those IDF idiots continue to murder at will.

How much can you tell me about the IDF without first looking anything up?

From just what you have written lately i believe my knowledge is limited to them saving Haitians and abused puppies.

rebornFixer

flywallyfly wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

flywallyfly wrote:

I dont understand how they can "discipline" a war crime with a bad note sticky in their file. That is like a giant middle finger pointed at the Palestinians. No wonder those IDF idiots continue to murder at will.

The hyperbole on here is apparently contagious.

Not really. This situation has been talked about at length for years on this board. Glad you experts are here to set everyone's opinion straight. :roll:

Sorry, but I take issue with the global notion of "IDF idiots killing at will". You don't see me referring to "Palestinian terrorist douchebags sowing the seeds of death". I have no qualms about people calling attention to specific incidents. The global language doesn't really capture the complexity of the issues, is all.

flywallyfly

rebornFixer wrote:

yosi wrote:

From what I understand the weapons themselves are legal, and the question hinges on the context of their use, in this case how densely populated the area was. There seem to be conflicting accounts about this, some saying it was a densely populated area, others that the area was only lightly populated. I'm honestly not sure which account is correct, but from what I understand, and I don't think this has been mentioned yet, only 3 people have been shown to have been hurt (and not killed) by this white phosphorous stuff, which would suggest that we're talking about an isolated case. So look, I'll admit that I'm not sure what to make of this accusation, but from what I can gather even if true the "crime" seems much less severe than it has been portrayed on this board.

I won't try to argue that WP is safe, but I will say that its used largely for battlefield illumination. I am not surprised that few deaths have been directly linked to its use. If heavy civilian casualties was the goal, there would be "better" choices than WP rounds (better in quotes for obvious reasons). Cluster bombs are a much bigger problem, for instance, in that they litter unexploded munitions every which way for people to later pick up or step on. I think that DU and WP are "hot button topics" because these munitions sound like uber-nasty inhumane weapons, because of potential chemical effects and very low levels of ambient radiation. The truth is that cluster bombs are a much bigger threat, not to mention landmines (I don't think the latter are a big issue in Palestine, though).

Yeah, WP is no big deal. Looks pretty light outside as well for illumination purposes but what do i know.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&r ... CDMQsAQwBw

rebornFixer

flywallyfly wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

yosi wrote:

From what I understand the weapons themselves are legal, and the question hinges on the context of their use, in this case how densely populated the area was. There seem to be conflicting accounts about this, some saying it was a densely populated area, others that the area was only lightly populated. I'm honestly not sure which account is correct, but from what I understand, and I don't think this has been mentioned yet, only 3 people have been shown to have been hurt (and not killed) by this white phosphorous stuff, which would suggest that we're talking about an isolated case. So look, I'll admit that I'm not sure what to make of this accusation, but from what I can gather even if true the "crime" seems much less severe than it has been portrayed on this board.

I won't try to argue that WP is safe, but I will say that its used largely for battlefield illumination. I am not surprised that few deaths have been directly linked to its use. If heavy civilian casualties was the goal, there would be "better" choices than WP rounds (better in quotes for obvious reasons). Cluster bombs are a much bigger problem, for instance, in that they litter unexploded munitions every which way for people to later pick up or step on. I think that DU and WP are "hot button topics" because these munitions sound like uber-nasty inhumane weapons, because of potential chemical effects and very low levels of ambient radiation. The truth is that cluster bombs are a much bigger threat, not to mention landmines (I don't think the latter are a big issue in Palestine, though).

Yeah, WP is no big deal. Looks pretty light outside as well for illumination purposes but what do i know.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&r ... CDMQsAQwBw

No opinion on cluster bombs, eh? I didn't say I wanted to bathe in the stuff.

flywallyfly

Cluster bombs? Way to deflect from the topic of WP. Start a thread on cluster bombs and we can discuss the IDF's use of them on civilians as well.

rebornFixer

flywallyfly wrote:

Cluster bombs? Way to deflect from the topic of WP. Start a thread on cluster bombs and we can discuss the IDF's use of them on civilians as well.

I wasn't deflecting anything, I gave my view on WP. What else do you want me to say? I didn't realize that mentioning other forms of weaponry was not permitted. If you want to get really technical, we should probably only be talking about the disciplining of Israeli officers for using WP, the original thread topic. Not its random use on civilians.