Israeli officers disciplined

NoK

rebornFixer wrote:

No opinion on cluster bombs, eh? I didn't say I wanted to bathe in the stuff.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.


Is this what you are after? Or is that too much hyperbole?

flywallyfly

rebornFixer wrote:

flywallyfly wrote:

Cluster bombs? Way to deflect from the topic of WP. Start a thread on cluster bombs and we can discuss the IDF's use of them on civilians as well.

I wasn't deflecting anything, I gave my view on WP. What else do you want me to say? I didn't realize that mentioning other forms of weaponry was not permitted. If you want to get really technical, we should probably only be talking about the disciplining of Israeli officers for using WP, the original thread topic. Not its random use on civilians.

Ok then, sorry to hurt your feelings Mr Sensitive. Cluster bombs bad, WP bad, killing civilians bad, using snipers on children bad, blah blah blah. Just put me down as saying the IDF is being used to commit war crimes for years. No whitewashing by you is going to change what I've read and watched over the last decade so good luck with others on here.

rebornFixer

NoK wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

No opinion on cluster bombs, eh? I didn't say I wanted to bathe in the stuff.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.


Is this what you are after? Or is that too much hyperbole?

Yes, actually. I threw it out there for exactly that reason. And back during the war on Lebanon, I was on this very board, really bothered by what the IDF was doing at the time. What is everyone's problem on here? I point out that cluster bombs are a bigger issue than WP, and somehow this is a problem? And then you go on to prove my point for me, which I appreciate. I know I swore off cracking jokes in these threads, but you guys aren't making it easy.

NoK

rebornFixer wrote:

NoK wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

No opinion on cluster bombs, eh? I didn't say I wanted to bathe in the stuff.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.


Is this what you are after? Or is that too much hyperbole?

Yes, actually. I threw it out there for exactly that reason. And back during the war on Lebanon, I was on this very board, really bothered by what the IDF was doing at the time. What is everyone's problem on here? I point out that cluster bombs are a bigger issue than WP, and somehow this is a problem? And then you go on to prove my point for me, which I appreciate. I know I swore off cracking jokes in these threads, but you guys aren't making it easy.

I am not sure how you extrapolate from a link that shows the IDF terrorising civilians with cluster bombs to proving your point. The only thing the link proves is that the IDF is willing to use ANY type of bomb to terrorise civilians. The bigger issue is the IDFs attitude towards Arab civilians and not what type of bomb they use.

I personally could not give a rats ass if you crack jokes in these threads because it is only a reflection of ones personality to crack jokes in threads about loss of human lives.

rebornFixer

NoK wrote:

I personally could not give a rats ass if you crack jokes in these threads because it is only a reflection of ones personality to crack jokes in threads about loss of human lives.

And here we go, its personal attack time. In fairness, it took a bit longer than it usually does.

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

only 3 people have been shown to have been hurt (and not killed) by this white phosphorous stuff, which would suggest that we're talking about an isolated case. So look, I'll admit that I'm not sure what to make of this accusation, but from what I can gather even if true the "crime" seems much less severe than it has been portrayed on this board.

isolated case?

and much less severe than portrayed on the board? see how severe you think it is if it's fired up your ass.

Amnesty International delegates visiting the Gaza Strip found indisputable evidence of widespread use of white phosphorus in densely populated residential areas in Gaza City and in the north.

"Yesterday, we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army," said Christopher Cobb-Smith, a weapons expert who is in Gaza as part of a four-person Amnesty International fact-finding team.

"White phosphorus is a weapon intended to provide a smokescreen for troop movements on the battlefield," said Cobb-Smith. "It is highly incendiary, air burst and its spread effect is such that it that should never be used on civilian areas”.

“Such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza's densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate. Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime," said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty’s researcher on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

White phosphorus wedges are scattered all around residential buildings and many were still burning on Sunday, further endangering the residents and their property; streets and alleys are full of children playing, drawn to the detritus of war and often unaware of the danger.

"Artillery is an area weapon; not good for pinpoint targeting. The fact that these munitions, which are usually used as ground burst, were fired as air bursts increases the likely size of the danger area,” said Chris Cobb-Smith.

Each 155mm artillery shell bursts deploying 116 wedges impregnated with white phosphorus which ignite on contact with oxygen and can scatter, depending on the height at which it is burst (and wind conditions), over an area at least the size of a football pitch. In addition to the indiscriminate effect of air-bursting such a weapon, firing such shells as artillery exacerbates the likelihood that civilians will be affected.

Amnesty International delegates found both burning white phosphorous wedges and their carrier shells (which delivered them) in and around houses and buildings. Some of these heavy steel 155mm shells have caused extensive damage to residential properties.

Among the places worst affected by the use of white phosphorus was the UNRWA compound in Gaza City, where Israeli forces fired three white phosphorus shells on 15 January. The white phosphorus landed next to some fuel trucks and caused a large fire which destroyed tons of humanitarian aid. Prior to this strike the compound had already been hit an hour earlier and the Israeli authorities had been informed by UNRWA officials and had given assurance that no further strikes would be launched on the compound.

In another incident on the same day a white phosphorus shell landed in the al-Quds hospital in Gaza City also causing a fire which forced hospital staff to evacuate the patients.

White phosphorus landing on skin can burn deep through muscle and into the bone, continuing to burn unless deprived of oxygen.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/pre ... osphorus-a


Doctors in Gaza described today how they had struggled to treat dozens of patients with terrible and unusually deadly burns consistent with white phosphorus weapons, during Israel's three-week war in Gaza.

Nafiz Abu Shabaan, head of the burns unit at Shifa hospital and the most senior burns surgeon in Gaza, said 60 to 70 patients had died in his unit during the war from severe burns that were unlike any injury he had previously seen.

Patients with only relatively small burn injuries, which ought to be survivable, were dying unexpectedly.

His account, along with evidence from survivors, corroborates mounting evidence from groups such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International that the Israeli military fired phosphorus shells into populated areas of Gaza in direct violation of international humanitarian law. Amnesty said it believes Israel is guilty of a war crime.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... rus-israel

rebornFixer

I know that the U.S. military did use WP shells as direct fire to burn out enemy bunkers in Vietnam. This is a use much like napalm, and yeah, its a gross, nasty weapon. If the whole point of this post was to decry Israeli use of WP shells over populated areas for whatever purpose, then yes, I agree. I got involved in the discussion in the first place because 1) I didn't really like the language the OP used in reference to the IDF, because its not clear to me that the goal of every IDF trooper is to slaughter Palestinians, and 2) to respond to yosi's comments about WP. That is all.

yosi

rebornFixer wrote:

yosi wrote:

From what I understand the weapons themselves are legal, and the question hinges on the context of their use, in this case how densely populated the area was. There seem to be conflicting accounts about this, some saying it was a densely populated area, others that the area was only lightly populated. I'm honestly not sure which account is correct, but from what I understand, and I don't think this has been mentioned yet, only 3 people have been shown to have been hurt (and not killed) by this white phosphorous stuff, which would suggest that we're talking about an isolated case. So look, I'll admit that I'm not sure what to make of this accusation, but from what I can gather even if true the "crime" seems much less severe than it has been portrayed on this board.

I won't try to argue that WP is safe, but I will say that its used largely for battlefield illumination. I am not surprised that few deaths have been directly linked to its use. If heavy civilian casualties was the goal, there would be "better" choices than WP rounds (better in quotes for obvious reasons). Cluster bombs are a much bigger problem, for instance, in that they litter unexploded munitions every which way for people to later pick up or step on. I think that DU and WP are "hot button topics" because these munitions sound like uber-nasty inhumane weapons, because of potential chemical effects and very low levels of ambient radiation. The truth is that cluster bombs are a much bigger threat, not to mention landmines (I don't think the latter are a big issue in Palestine, though).

Landmines are actually a huge issue in the Golan heights. The area is literally littered with landmines set by the Syrians, who have refused to supply Israel with the maps of where these mines are laid out. As a result anyone driving through the Golan will constantly see fields cordoned off by barbed fire fences with signs warning of unexploded landmines. Because the IDF has done such a good job of marking the areas that might be dangerous no one (except the supremely stupid) are in danger, though every year a few grazing cattle that wander into the wrong field are blown up. Still, it's pretty dick of the Syrians, even without a peace treaty, to refuse to just give Israel the maps of where they left all their mines.

yosi

flywallyfly wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

yosi wrote:

From what I understand the weapons themselves are legal, and the question hinges on the context of their use, in this case how densely populated the area was. There seem to be conflicting accounts about this, some saying it was a densely populated area, others that the area was only lightly populated. I'm honestly not sure which account is correct, but from what I understand, and I don't think this has been mentioned yet, only 3 people have been shown to have been hurt (and not killed) by this white phosphorous stuff, which would suggest that we're talking about an isolated case. So look, I'll admit that I'm not sure what to make of this accusation, but from what I can gather even if true the "crime" seems much less severe than it has been portrayed on this board.

I won't try to argue that WP is safe, but I will say that its used largely for battlefield illumination. I am not surprised that few deaths have been directly linked to its use. If heavy civilian casualties was the goal, there would be "better" choices than WP rounds (better in quotes for obvious reasons). Cluster bombs are a much bigger problem, for instance, in that they litter unexploded munitions every which way for people to later pick up or step on. I think that DU and WP are "hot button topics" because these munitions sound like uber-nasty inhumane weapons, because of potential chemical effects and very low levels of ambient radiation. The truth is that cluster bombs are a much bigger threat, not to mention landmines (I don't think the latter are a big issue in Palestine, though).

Yeah, WP is no big deal. Looks pretty light outside as well for illumination purposes but what do i know.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&r ... CDMQsAQwBw

From what I've read I believe that the actual purpose is for battlefield concealment. In this particular instance the IDF has explained that Hamas gunman controlled a position on the far side of the UN compound in question, and that the WP was used to try to allow IDF soldiers to move towards the Hamas position.

yosi

TriumphantAngel wrote:

yosi wrote:

only 3 people have been shown to have been hurt (and not killed) by this white phosphorous stuff, which would suggest that we're talking about an isolated case. So look, I'll admit that I'm not sure what to make of this accusation, but from what I can gather even if true the "crime" seems much less severe than it has been portrayed on this board.

isolated case?

and much less severe than portrayed on the board? see how severe you think it is if it's fired up your ass.

Amnesty International delegates visiting the Gaza Strip found indisputable evidence of widespread use of white phosphorus in densely populated residential areas in Gaza City and in the north.

"Yesterday, we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army," said Christopher Cobb-Smith, a weapons expert who is in Gaza as part of a four-person Amnesty International fact-finding team.

"White phosphorus is a weapon intended to provide a smokescreen for troop movements on the battlefield," said Cobb-Smith. "It is highly incendiary, air burst and its spread effect is such that it that should never be used on civilian areas”.

“Such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza's densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate. Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime," said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty’s researcher on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

White phosphorus wedges are scattered all around residential buildings and many were still burning on Sunday, further endangering the residents and their property; streets and alleys are full of children playing, drawn to the detritus of war and often unaware of the danger.

"Artillery is an area weapon; not good for pinpoint targeting. The fact that these munitions, which are usually used as ground burst, were fired as air bursts increases the likely size of the danger area,” said Chris Cobb-Smith.

Each 155mm artillery shell bursts deploying 116 wedges impregnated with white phosphorus which ignite on contact with oxygen and can scatter, depending on the height at which it is burst (and wind conditions), over an area at least the size of a football pitch. In addition to the indiscriminate effect of air-bursting such a weapon, firing such shells as artillery exacerbates the likelihood that civilians will be affected.

Amnesty International delegates found both burning white phosphorous wedges and their carrier shells (which delivered them) in and around houses and buildings. Some of these heavy steel 155mm shells have caused extensive damage to residential properties.

Among the places worst affected by the use of white phosphorus was the UNRWA compound in Gaza City, where Israeli forces fired three white phosphorus shells on 15 January. The white phosphorus landed next to some fuel trucks and caused a large fire which destroyed tons of humanitarian aid. Prior to this strike the compound had already been hit an hour earlier and the Israeli authorities had been informed by UNRWA officials and had given assurance that no further strikes would be launched on the compound.

In another incident on the same day a white phosphorus shell landed in the al-Quds hospital in Gaza City also causing a fire which forced hospital staff to evacuate the patients.

White phosphorus landing on skin can burn deep through muscle and into the bone, continuing to burn unless deprived of oxygen.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/pre ... osphorus-a


Doctors in Gaza described today how they had struggled to treat dozens of patients with terrible and unusually deadly burns consistent with white phosphorus weapons, during Israel's three-week war in Gaza.

Nafiz Abu Shabaan, head of the burns unit at Shifa hospital and the most senior burns surgeon in Gaza, said 60 to 70 patients had died in his unit during the war from severe burns that were unlike any injury he had previously seen.

Patients with only relatively small burn injuries, which ought to be survivable, were dying unexpectedly.

His account, along with evidence from survivors, corroborates mounting evidence from groups such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International that the Israeli military fired phosphorus shells into populated areas of Gaza in direct violation of international humanitarian law. Amnesty said it believes Israel is guilty of a war crime.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... rus-israel

Like I said, I don't really know a lot about these weapons. If the above is true then yeah, put me down as saying that this is really bad. The fact remains, however, that this fight should never have happened amongst a civilian population to begin with.

NoK

rebornFixer wrote:

And here we go, its personal attack time. In fairness, it took a bit longer than it usually does.

Once again you extrapolate my opinion on someone cracking a joke about loss of human life to a direct personal attack on you. Perhaps you should crack a joke to make yourself feel better. All in all it was a good attempt at deflecting from the subject matter.

NoK

yosi wrote:

Landmines are actually a huge issue in the Golan heights. The area is literally littered with landmines set by the Syrians, who have refused to supply Israel with the maps of where these mines are laid out. As a result anyone driving through the Golan will constantly see fields cordoned off by barbed fire fences with signs warning of unexploded landmines. Because the IDF has done such a good job of marking the areas that might be dangerous no one (except the supremely stupid) are in danger, though every year a few grazing cattle that wander into the wrong field are blown up. Still, it's pretty dick of the Syrians, even without a peace treaty, to refuse to just give Israel the maps of where they left all their mines.

What is "pretty dick" is the Israelis not giving Lebanon the maps for the 1.2 million cluster bomblets they terrorised civilians with. Even after more than 20 civilians were killed from them AFTER the war had ended.

Plus Golan Heights is Syrian after all. If the Israelis did a good job of returning it to them then maybe they could diffuse them themselves. Ever thought of that? or the idea of giving the land back to its rightful owner never crossed your mind?

yosi

You don't set cluster bombs, therefore you can't make maps of where they are. And if Syria would like to get the Golan back they might want to consider taking Israel up on the peace negotiations that Israel has repeatedly offered over the years. And let me get this straight, you think it's perfectly alright for a country that is not actively at war with another country to refuse such a small thing as to give up maps of where you left your landmines? Cause it sounds like what you are saying is that since Israel is so terrible it's perfectly fine for all Israel's enemies to do whatever the fuck they want.

flywallyfly

yosi wrote:

You don't set cluster bombs, therefore you can't make maps of where they are. And if Syria would like to get the Golan back they might want to consider taking Israel up on the peace negotiations that Israel has repeatedly offered over the years. And let me get this straight, you think it's perfectly alright for a country that is not actively at war with another country to refuse such a small thing as to give up maps of where you left your landmines? Cause it sounds like what you are saying is that since Israel is so terrible it's perfectly fine for all Israel's enemies to do whatever the fuck they want.

You seriously believe that a country that had land taken from it should give the occupying country a map of where they put their landmines? That is like a burglar taking my television, dvr, stereo system, and blu ray player and then calling me the next day and asking me how to operate the universal remote for them.

yosi

You know what, from a completely realist-political, amoral perspective that is a fair point.

NoK

yosi wrote:

You don't set cluster bombs, therefore you can't make maps of where they are. And if Syria would like to get the Golan back they might want to consider taking Israel up on the peace negotiations that Israel has repeatedly offered over the years. And let me get this straight, you think it's perfectly alright for a country that is not actively at war with another country to refuse such a small thing as to give up maps of where you left your landmines? Cause it sounds like what you are saying is that since Israel is so terrible it's perfectly fine for all Israel's enemies to do whatever the fuck they want.

You attempt to flip things around to make the other look evil as a way to validate your argument. That is quite lame.

I didn't think my post was that hard to understand but I guess some people need it broken down for them to grasp it. Please refer me to where my post said it was perfectly alright for the Syrians to refuse israel the maps. I believe my post said, if the israelis were so worried about land mines in the Golan Heights then perhaps they should get the fuck out of there. I'd say that is a very valid way of solving the problem. But both you and I know that Israel does not want to leave some of most fertile land in the region and a great water source.

And once again, this drivel about peace negotiations being refused when the Israelis are always the ones to set conditions that will be automatically refused as a way to fuel their propaganda machine. "We want peace but we wont give you what is yours, in fact we'll take more". I think you zionists should take that up as your official motto.

With regards to cluster bomb munitions the UN requested many times for locations of where they were dropped to have a general idea of where they should be targetting in their sweeps. I'm sure you already knew that but only tried to deflect cause your argument was just drivel.

NoK

flywallyfly wrote:

You seriously believe that a country that had land taken from it should give the occupying country a map of where they put their landmines? That is like a burglar taking my television, dvr, stereo system, and blu ray player and then calling me the next day and asking me how to operate the universal remote for them.

It would be quite mean of you not to help them out. He'll have to walk all the way to the tv to change the bloody channel

flywallyfly

yosi wrote:

You know what, from a completely realist-political, amoral perspective that is a fair point.

Or perhaps they know israel will use the anti-tank mines o destroy palestinian homes ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7926413.stm

Human rights investigators say Israeli forces engaged in "wanton destruction" of Palestinian homes during the recent conflict in Gaza.

Amnesty International has told the BBC News website the methods used raised concerns about war crimes.

Israel's military said buildings were destroyed because of military "operational needs".

The Israeli Defense Forces said they operated in accordance with international law during the conflict.
However, the use of mines to destroy homes contradicted this claim, the head of the Amnesty International fact-finding mission to southern Israel and Gaza, Donatella Rovera, has argued.
Israeli troops had to leave their vehicles to plant the mines, indicating that they faced no danger and that there was no military or operational justification, she said.
========
Ms Rovera said her team found fragments of anti-tank mines in and around destroyed properties.

Their use was also consistent with remains of houses, collapsed in on themselves as if blown up from below, rather than destroyed from above as in an airstrike, she said.

Troops would have had to leave their armoured vehicles to plant them and rig up the detonators, she said.

"Unless those operating on the ground felt not just 100% but 200% secure - that the places were not booby trapped, that they wouldn't come under fire - they could not have got out of the vehicles," she said. "They would not have used that method."

"The use of the method tells us even more that there wasn't the kind of danger that might have made it lawful to destroy some of those properties," Ms Rovera said.

=====
Mr Atamna said a UN ordnance clearance team had found several mines in and around the remains of one of the homes.

He said he and his family had fled the area during the Israeli military operation, and returned to find their homes demolished.

flywallyfly

NoK wrote:

flywallyfly wrote:

You seriously believe that a country that had land taken from it should give the occupying country a map of where they put their landmines? That is like a burglar taking my television, dvr, stereo system, and blu ray player and then calling me the next day and asking me how to operate the universal remote for them.

It would be quite mean of you not to help them out. He'll have to walk all the way to the tv to change the bloody channel

Hehehe, no kidding !!

yosi

Ok, that got nasty kind of fast. You're right you didn't say that Syria shouldn't tell Israel where they left their mines, but you'll forgive me if I took that to be the implication of your response. I don't know where you have the idea that Israel wants anything from Syria other than peace, since multiple Israeli governments have signaled a willingness to negotiate with Syria on the basis of land for peace, specifically the Golan in exchange for peace. If you want to believe that Israel never does anything in good faith that is your business, but I think that you are all seeing only part of the picture.

While we've brought up Syria for a second, another question: Why isn't anyone on this thread upset about Syria. This is a country that actively sponsors terrorism, that up until very recently was occupying Lebanon and still maintains a grip on the country through Hezbollah and the SSNP, and that regularly assassinates Lebanese leaders that cross the Assad regime. Do we not care about this? I know I do.

And lest anyone accuse me of trying to deflect attention, I would say that first, discussing the faults of other country's in the region need not detract from your discussions of how much you all loath Israel, and second, perhaps we could gain a better understanding of where Israel is coming from if we take a realistic view of who the neighbors it has to deal with actually are.