I wish people would stop blaming Courtney for Kurt's death

locked

"Yet Ted Kennedy told the press he didn't believe either of his brother's assasinations were plots...
"

what have you got for that one??

facepollution

locked wrote:

"Yet Ted Kennedy told the press he didn't believe either of his brother's assasinations were plots...
"

what have you got for that one??

Apologies, I deemed it irrelevant to the discussion So you think they are keeping quiet because they could be next?! That doesn't really follow with their behaviour though does it? They've openly criticised Courtney on many occassions, even going as far as to file a motion to get Courtney to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. They're not scared of her.

locked

facepollution wrote:

locked wrote:

"Yet Ted Kennedy told the press he didn't believe either of his brother's assasinations were plots...
"

what have you got for that one??

Apologies, I deemed it irrelevant to the discussion So you think they are keeping quiet because they could be next?! That doesn't really follow with their behaviour though does it? They've openly criticised Courtney on many occassions, even going as far as to file a motion to get Courtney to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. They're not scared of her.

No... The quote is meant to exhibit the ones closest to the victim (Band mates) rarely have perspective on possible conspiracies...

That's all..

facepollution

locked wrote:

No... The quote is meant to exhibit the ones closest to the victim (Band mates) rarely have perspective on possible conspiracies...

That's all..

Fair, I hadn't really heard it before. To be honest I don't really buy it either, it's hardly a proven fact that they rarely have perspective. Some people might not, but I'm sure others do. Like I said, it's not exactly relevant to the factual information in the case.

left the porch

mawfordinks wrote:

I'm the original poster of this article. Can i say how fucking disgusted I am by a large majority of you who still blame Courtney. Yes she is not the most likeable person on Earth. But she did lose a husband and she did have an infant now with no father. I believe that if any Pearl Jam members were to see your vile replies they wouldn't want you as fans.

I believe you're WRONG, and I also think you shouldn't have posted this in the first place if you didn't want to spark a debate. And as far a PJ goes, I'd love to know their opinions on this, and I'm sure they have one. Frances was not an infant when he died, and she was so upset about losing Kurt that she promptly made a movie and started fucking Ed Norton. I can't for the life of me understand why this bothers you in the first place? Are you related to her? Does she call you at home, asking if the mean people on the PJ message board are saying they think she was involved in her husbands death? If not, why the fuck do you care if a bunch of people think she's capable of such things? People are entitled to their opinion and you're not going to change them with your high and mighty defence of Courtney Love. Just like no one is trying to change your mind that she didi it. Agree to disagree. And yes you can say that you're "disgusted" with those who think the douchebag is to blame for his death, just as much as we can say that you and anyone else who defend her are fucked in the head.

facepollution

left the porch wrote:

And yes you can say that you're "disgusted" with those who think the douchebag is to blame for his death, just as much as we can say that you and anyone else who defend her are fucked in the head.

Whilst I don't particulaarly agree with the words the OP wrote, calling anyone who defends Courtney "fucked in the head" is a bit much. I work on logical reasoning and fact only. You on the other hand seem to think, conjecture and erratic behaviour are enought to find someone guilty. God forbid you should ever end up doing jury service.

left the porch

facepollution wrote:

left the porch wrote:

And yes you can say that you're "disgusted" with those who think the douchebag is to blame for his death, just as much as we can say that you and anyone else who defend her are fucked in the head.

Whilst I don't particulaarly agree with the words the OP wrote, calling anyone who defends Courtney "fucked in the head" is a bit much. I work on logical reasoning and fact only. You on the other hand seem to think, conjecture and erratic behaviour are enought to find someone guilty. God forbid you should ever end up doing jury service.

I don't think it's a bit much. I think it's right on the money. I don't give a fuck about you or what you 'work on' or if you think you have 'facts' and I only work on 'conjecture and erratic behavior.' I think she's guilty because of the facts in front of me. Just because you think Tom Grant is wrong dosen't mean I do. You think he's wrong. Now who's judging based on peronal feelings. You obviuosly think he's not credible, so why should I think Courtney's word is the truth?

And if you want to know why I think she did it here is just a few of the 'facts' that you say I'm lacking in my judgement;

"Something else emerged about the suicide note a bit later - more fuel for conspiracies. The last lines - "Please keep going Courtney for Frances for her life which will be so much happier without me. I love you I love you!" - were apparently added to the note some time after the bulk was written. There are those who claim that these lines alter the whole tenor of the note and that they are forged - evidence that Kurt was, in fact, murdered. Check out the web today and there are thousands of pages devoted to this. Once site is even called justiceforkurt.com. The theories mostly revolve around the fact that, once Kurt had shot himself up with three times the fatal dose of heroin, he managed to roll down and rebutton his sleeve, then tidy away his works, and then raise the shotgun and pull the trigger. Impossible, some say. Then there was the muddled matter of how many and whose fingerprints were on the gun. Others suggest that Kurt was about the divorce Courtney and excise her from his will. Courtney had called in a missing persons report about Kurt to the Seattle Police Department, pretending to be Kurt's mother - why, if she had nothing to hide? The Nick Broomfield film Kurt & Courtney later revealed a certain Eldon Hoke who claimed he had been offered $50,000 to kill Kurt, Days after making this claim, he himself was found dead.

Oh and I suppose Kim Gordon and Mark Lanegan and KURT'S GRANDFATHER, all of whom don't believe the suicide story are unfit for jury duty too.

facepollution

left the porch wrote:

Just because you think Tom Grant is wrong dosen't mean I do. You think he's wrong. Now who's judging based on peronal feelings. You obviuosly think he's not credible, so why should I think Courtney's word is the truth?

Nothing to do with personal feelings, like I said I deal in fact. Tom Grant in 16 years hasn't produced anything but circumstantial evidence. There have been no smoking guns (pardon the pun), and if he really did have any credible evidence don't you think he would have shared it by now? Oh, and Courtney has never addressed the issue, so technically she isn't trying to sell you anything.

left the porch wrote:

And if you want to know why I think she did it here is just a few of the 'facts' that you say I'm lacking in my judgement;

The last lines - were apparently added to the note some time after the bulk was written. There are those who claim that these lines alter the whole tenor of the note and that they are forged - evidence that Kurt was, in fact, murdered. Check out the web today and there are thousands of pages devoted to this.

That is not a fact. Of all the hand writing experts who have analysed the note there has never been a unanimous agreement. Such a practice as graphology is always subject to human error anyway.

left the porch wrote:

The theories mostly revolve around the fact that, once Kurt had shot himself up with three times the fatal dose of heroin, he managed to roll down and rebutton his sleeve, then tidy away his works, and then raise the shotgun and pull the trigger. Impossible, some say.

Again not factual evidence. This "three times the fatal dose" claim came from a journalist (and we all know how reliable they are!!) who had spoken to a police source - there are all kinds of ways in which this could have been mis-reported. In addition, experts are not in agreement over what constitutes a lethal dose. Some believe a hardened addict like Kurt could have built up a tolerance to the reported level found in his body.

left the porch wrote:

Others suggest that Kurt was about the divorce Courtney and excise her from his will. Courtney had called in a missing persons report about Kurt to the Seattle Police Department, pretending to be Kurt's mother - why, if she had nothing to hide?

Well there's that erratic behaviour I was talking about. I don't know, desperate, unhinged drug addict behaves strangely? Not all that odd to me, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that there may be an explanation for this. You have to ask the question why did Courtney even hire a private detective in the first place? Hardly what you need if you're trying to conduct a secret murder.

left the porch wrote:

The Nick Broomfield film Kurt & Courtney later revealed a certain Eldon Hoke who claimed he had been offered $50,000 to kill Kurt, Days after making this claim, he himself was found dead.

Circumstantial, it doesn't prove anything.

left the porch wrote:

Oh and I suppose Kim Gordon and Mark Lanegan and KURT'S GRANDFATHER, all of whom don't believe the suicide story are unfit for jury duty too.

Lanegan said he hadn't known Kurt to be suicidal - that means nothing, plenty of close friends and family say the same thing after a loved one kills themselves. In the same interview that Kim said she thought Kurt had been murdered, Thurston Moore essentially said the opposite.

So we've pretty much come full circle here. There is no hard, factual, indisputable evidence to link Courtney to Kurt's death. You can dress that up however you want with all the cirucumstantial evidence you like, but it proves nothing other than the fact that some people will believe what they want to believe regardless of the lack of real evidence.

left the porch

Yes, it's called there being enough red flags surrounding the case to go with my gut feeling on this. That's what I'm doing here. You're right about two things, I don't have any concrete facts, nobody does, only Kurt and maybe someone else know forsure what happened above the greenhouse, but there is reasonable doubt. There was a shotty Police investigation, that is what his grandfather believes. There was enough 'erractic behaviour' by Courtney for her to atleast be questioned. One of the most famous people in the world dead under suspicious circumstances, and homicide was just ruled out automatically because of Rome which he denied all along was a suicide attempt. The crime scene alone was full of questions, like why was the empty shell found to the left of the body when it should have landed on his right? How did he have the motor skills after shooting himself up with that much heroin to put away his needle and spoon, roll his sleeve down and button it up and then put the gun in his mouth and pull the trigger? I know because he was a hardened junkie right? Well there's no proof of that, in fact Krist Novaselic and Kurt's best friend Dylan Carlson both have said that Kurt didn't do as much heroin as everybody thought. That things got sensationalized in the media which we all know can happen. Quite possible he was a functioning junkie, who was quite capable of dealing with his addiction. In fact it was his stomach problems that made him so upset and depressed. While being a junkie wouldn't help, especially the withdrawls, he was quoted as saying heroin was one of the only things that took the pain away. Chronic pain can also make people very depressed. And as far as the handwriting on the note being different, why did Courtney have a used handwriting analysis practice pad in her backpack? And like you said it's inconclusive, not irrefutable, that there are some experts who say the end was added. Here's one for you I'd love to see your response to, the matter of his will. He wanted it changed to take Courtney out of it. Why? He was filing for divorce on the grounds of adultery. The nanny was witness to all of this. Oh and El Duce took a lie detector test and passed, but that's probably not factual enough for you. Well it is for me. I think that Courtney Love and Michael DeWitt tried to kill Kurt in Rome and failed, but succeeded in Seattle. And your right I wouldn't get selected for jury duty in this case because I am aware of it and I am not impartial. You can't make a jury if you have any knowledge of the case. But according to you, I lack kowledge about this case because I don't have any 'facts' to support my opinion. I think I do, and nothing you say will change that. Just like I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same.

facepollution

I think the point I'm trying to make to you is that all these 'facts' have been reported to you essentially by one man. I question why you choose to believe him? Just because Courtney doesn't seem to be a credible person doesn't automatically mean that Tom Grant is. If he were able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Courtney played a part in Kurt's death he would stand to make a lot of money. And we all know that money can be a big motivator.

Courtney had ample opportunity to let Kurt die on one of the many times he overdosed. Why didn't she?

In terms of the will - again this is all according to Tom Grant. You don't know that to be fact, you just have someone's word. Again I'll ask you, why would you hire a private detective if you were secretly trying to pull off a murder?

Polygraph tests are not scientific proof, there are many factors that can effect results.

You say Kurt wasn't doing as much heroin as people thought and that his use was mainly because of his stomach condition. However according to his cousin he was diagnosed as having bipolar disorder. The risk of suicide is statistically significant amongst bipolar sufferers. In addition there was a history of suicide in Kurt's family, with two of his uncles having killed themselves with guns.

In terms of his heroin use being over stated, addicts are notoriously secretive about their use. His band members, family and close friends were concerned enough that they staged an intervention, so his use was clearly having a significant impact on his life.

What I said about jury duty wasn't with reference to this case, so much as your belief that a foregone conclusion can be made without having proof beyond reasonable doubt. Are you familiar with the case of the West Memphis Three? Three guys convicted of killing three young boys based on circumstantial evidence and a confession from a guy who is technically classed as borderline retarded. If you take the emotion out of the case, you aren't left with anything particularly compelling. I think the murder theory in the case of Kurt Cobain is exactly the same.

JDB

I wish people would just get over Kurts death in general. It's been 15+ years.

catefrances

i guess all you lovehaters think that courtney tried to kill kurt when he ODed in NYC in january 92 as well???

facepollution

catefrances wrote:

i guess all you lovehaters think that courtney tried to kill kurt when he ODed in NYC in january 92 as well???

People will believe what they want to. It's a classic case of emotion overtaking common sense and factual information, nothing more nothing less. I bet when it comes to analysing a situation they feel much more neutral about that these people are probably a lot more rational. There's a reason the case has never been reopened, and that's because Tom Grant doesn't have any compelling evidence at all. He has circumstantial evidence, which none of these believers have ever checked to see if it's corroborated - they just take his word for it, becuase it fits with their loathing of Courtney Love. If he really had a solid case he would have presented it by now.

Kurt over dosed plenty of times, this is all backed up by his friends and band mates, they all felt his addiction was at such a point that they staged an intervention. These are telling facts about the state he was in towards the end.

dust

I'm not interested in debating this issue but I will say, it's one thing to discuss and debate something and YES, everybody is entitled to an opinion but the awful misogyny in some of these responses saddens me

I'm disgusted

catefrances

facepollution wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i guess all you lovehaters think that courtney tried to kill kurt when he ODed in NYC in january 92 as well???

People will believe what they want to. It's a classic case of emotion overtaking common sense and factual information, nothing more nothing less. I bet when it comes to analysing a situation they feel much more neutral about that these people are probably a lot more rational. There's a reason the case has never been reopened, and that's because Tom Grant doesn't have any compelling evidence at all. He has circumstantial evidence, which none of these believers have ever checked to see if it's corroborated - they just take his word for it, becuase it fits with their loathing of Courtney Love. If he really had a solid case he would have presented it by now.

Kurt over dosed plenty of times, this is all backed up by his friends and band mates, they all felt his addiction was at such a point that they staged an intervention. These are telling facts about the state he was in towards the end.

and lets face it if courtney is the criminal mastermind all the haters are accusing her of being it wouldve been way more simple to pump kurt full of dope than to put a shotgun in his hand, dont you reckon cause NO ONE wouldve questioned kurt cobain ODing yet again.

LukinFan

WeaponX655321 wrote:

LukinFan wrote:

is this the doc that you all are talking about:

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Michael ... B000AYEL10

This is the doc:

http://www.amazon.com/Kurt-Courtney-Cob ... 813&sr=1-1

sweet- thanks!

facepollution

catefrances wrote:

and lets face it if courtney is the criminal mastermind all the haters are accusing her of being it wouldve been way more simple to pump kurt full of dope than to put a shotgun in his hand, dont you reckon cause NO ONE wouldve questioned kurt cobain ODing yet again.

Yeah, the opportunities were pretty endless to be honest.

It's weird with all this hatred towards Courtney, it's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' situation, I wonder how many people hated her before the documentary came out? If you remove the suicide conspiracy, all people have left to hate about her is her erratic behaviour over the years. Funnily enough, a male equivalent like say Ozzy Osbourne, or Steven Tyler, or Eminem, or any other drugged up singer, never seems to attract quite so much hatred. I guess people just don't expect women to behave that way, no matter how fucked up their pasts have been, it's just not lady like.

catefrances

LukinFan wrote:

is this the doc that you all are talking about:

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Michael ... B000AYEL10

thats not even a doco.

catefrances

facepollution wrote:

Yeah, the opportunities were pretty endless to be honest.

It's weird with all this hatred towards Courtney, it's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' situation, I wonder how many people hated her before the documentary came out? If you remove the suicide conspiracy, all people have left to hate about her is her erratic behaviour over the years. Funnily enough, a male equivalent like say Ozzy Osbourne, or Steven Tyler, or Eminem, or any other drugged up singer, never seems to attract quite so much hatred. I guess people just don't expect women to behave that way, no matter how fucked up their pasts have been, it's just not lady like.

i dont understand all the hatred either. especially towards someone you dont even know.

sure she does some pretty extreme things but its hardly cause for the high level of hatred aimed at her. and besides tis not like she fed anyones kitten to a snake.

left the porch

catefrances wrote:

facepollution wrote:

Yeah, the opportunities were pretty endless to be honest.

It's weird with all this hatred towards Courtney, it's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' situation, I wonder how many people hated her before the documentary came out? If you remove the suicide conspiracy, all people have left to hate about her is her erratic behaviour over the years. Funnily enough, a male equivalent like say Ozzy Osbourne, or Steven Tyler, or Eminem, or any other drugged up singer, never seems to attract quite so much hatred. I guess people just don't expect women to behave that way, no matter how fucked up their pasts have been, it's just not lady like.

i dont understand all the hatred either. especially towards someone you dont even know.

sure she does some pretty extreme things but its hardly cause for the high level of hatred aimed at her. and besides tis not like she fed anyones kitten to a snake.

No she didn't, she just murdered her husband, and sold his entire legacy to the highest bidder. Hush money runs out fast, too bad she's got 0 talent, she's running out of Kurt's stuff. One day the truth will come out, and then she will go to jail where she belongs. Oh and I know I don't have any "proof" so fucking what? It's called suspicion, and a gut feeling, and that's all I need. If I was the chief of police in Seattle I would re-open the investigation, but I'm not so I'll have to keep my opinions inside this forum, where I have every right to say what I THINK happened. And It has nothing to do with Tom Grant, docs, or anybody else's opinions, it's what I think happened. I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in every post about this cause I know facepollution is going to come back with, "You have no facts" or "Tom Grant is a money hungry ass" or my favourite, " You just hate Courtney, so your opinion is distorted." True, but as I have said in the past I hated her way before Kurt died, that only fueled the fire. And I did buy the suicide story at first, but then again I also bought that it was terrorists who attacked the WTC. But upon further review....I don't believe either story. But it's probablyy because I hate the Bush administration and Courtney Love right?
IMO