"Yet Ted Kennedy told the press he didn't believe either of his brother's assasinations were plots...
"
what have you got for that one??
Apologies, I deemed it irrelevant to the discussion So you think they are keeping quiet because they could be next?! That doesn't really follow with their behaviour though does it? They've openly criticised Courtney on many occassions, even going as far as to file a motion to get Courtney to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. They're not scared of her.
"Yet Ted Kennedy told the press he didn't believe either of his brother's assasinations were plots...
"
what have you got for that one??
Apologies, I deemed it irrelevant to the discussion So you think they are keeping quiet because they could be next?! That doesn't really follow with their behaviour though does it? They've openly criticised Courtney on many occassions, even going as far as to file a motion to get Courtney to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. They're not scared of her.
No... The quote is meant to exhibit the ones closest to the victim (Band mates) rarely have perspective on possible conspiracies...
That's all..
"This here's a REQUEST!"
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
No... The quote is meant to exhibit the ones closest to the victim (Band mates) rarely have perspective on possible conspiracies...
That's all..
Fair, I hadn't really heard it before. To be honest I don't really buy it either, it's hardly a proven fact that they rarely have perspective. Some people might not, but I'm sure others do. Like I said, it's not exactly relevant to the factual information in the case.
I'm the original poster of this article. Can i say how fucking disgusted I am by a large majority of you who still blame Courtney. Yes she is not the most likeable person on Earth. But she did lose a husband and she did have an infant now with no father. I believe that if any Pearl Jam members were to see your vile replies they wouldn't want you as fans.
I believe you're WRONG, and I also think you shouldn't have posted this in the first place if you didn't want to spark a debate. And as far a PJ goes, I'd love to know their opinions on this, and I'm sure they have one. Frances was not an infant when he died, and she was so upset about losing Kurt that she promptly made a movie and started fucking Ed Norton. I can't for the life of me understand why this bothers you in the first place? Are you related to her? Does she call you at home, asking if the mean people on the PJ message board are saying they think she was involved in her husbands death? If not, why the fuck do you care if a bunch of people think she's capable of such things? People are entitled to their opinion and you're not going to change them with your high and mighty defence of Courtney Love. Just like no one is trying to change your mind that she didi it. Agree to disagree. And yes you can say that you're "disgusted" with those who think the douchebag is to blame for his death, just as much as we can say that you and anyone else who defend her are fucked in the head.
And yes you can say that you're "disgusted" with those who think the douchebag is to blame for his death, just as much as we can say that you and anyone else who defend her are fucked in the head.
Whilst I don't particulaarly agree with the words the OP wrote, calling anyone who defends Courtney "fucked in the head" is a bit much. I work on logical reasoning and fact only. You on the other hand seem to think, conjecture and erratic behaviour are enought to find someone guilty. God forbid you should ever end up doing jury service.
And yes you can say that you're "disgusted" with those who think the douchebag is to blame for his death, just as much as we can say that you and anyone else who defend her are fucked in the head.
Whilst I don't particulaarly agree with the words the OP wrote, calling anyone who defends Courtney "fucked in the head" is a bit much. I work on logical reasoning and fact only. You on the other hand seem to think, conjecture and erratic behaviour are enought to find someone guilty. God forbid you should ever end up doing jury service.
I don't think it's a bit much. I think it's right on the money. I don't give a fuck about you or what you 'work on' or if you think you have 'facts' and I only work on 'conjecture and erratic behavior.' I think she's guilty because of the facts in front of me. Just because you think Tom Grant is wrong dosen't mean I do. You think he's wrong. Now who's judging based on peronal feelings. You obviuosly think he's not credible, so why should I think Courtney's word is the truth?
And if you want to know why I think she did it here is just a few of the 'facts' that you say I'm lacking in my judgement;
"Something else emerged about the suicide note a bit later - more fuel for conspiracies. The last lines - "Please keep going Courtney for Frances for her life which will be so much happier without me. I love you I love you!" - were apparently added to the note some time after the bulk was written. There are those who claim that these lines alter the whole tenor of the note and that they are forged - evidence that Kurt was, in fact, murdered. Check out the web today and there are thousands of pages devoted to this. Once site is even called justiceforkurt.com. The theories mostly revolve around the fact that, once Kurt had shot himself up with three times the fatal dose of heroin, he managed to roll down and rebutton his sleeve, then tidy away his works, and then raise the shotgun and pull the trigger. Impossible, some say. Then there was the muddled matter of how many and whose fingerprints were on the gun. Others suggest that Kurt was about the divorce Courtney and excise her from his will. Courtney had called in a missing persons report about Kurt to the Seattle Police Department, pretending to be Kurt's mother - why, if she had nothing to hide? The Nick Broomfield film Kurt & Courtney later revealed a certain Eldon Hoke who claimed he had been offered $50,000 to kill Kurt, Days after making this claim, he himself was found dead.
Oh and I suppose Kim Gordon and Mark Lanegan and KURT'S GRANDFATHER, all of whom don't believe the suicide story are unfit for jury duty too.
Just because you think Tom Grant is wrong dosen't mean I do. You think he's wrong. Now who's judging based on peronal feelings. You obviuosly think he's not credible, so why should I think Courtney's word is the truth?
Nothing to do with personal feelings, like I said I deal in fact. Tom Grant in 16 years hasn't produced anything but circumstantial evidence. There have been no smoking guns (pardon the pun), and if he really did have any credible evidence don't you think he would have shared it by now? Oh, and Courtney has never addressed the issue, so technically she isn't trying to sell you anything.
And if you want to know why I think she did it here is just a few of the 'facts' that you say I'm lacking in my judgement;
The last lines - were apparently added to the note some time after the bulk was written. There are those who claim that these lines alter the whole tenor of the note and that they are forged - evidence that Kurt was, in fact, murdered. Check out the web today and there are thousands of pages devoted to this.
That is not a fact. Of all the hand writing experts who have analysed the note there has never been a unanimous agreement. Such a practice as graphology is always subject to human error anyway.
The theories mostly revolve around the fact that, once Kurt had shot himself up with three times the fatal dose of heroin, he managed to roll down and rebutton his sleeve, then tidy away his works, and then raise the shotgun and pull the trigger. Impossible, some say.
Again not factual evidence. This "three times the fatal dose" claim came from a journalist (and we all know how reliable they are!!) who had spoken to a police source - there are all kinds of ways in which this could have been mis-reported. In addition, experts are not in agreement over what constitutes a lethal dose. Some believe a hardened addict like Kurt could have built up a tolerance to the reported level found in his body.
Others suggest that Kurt was about the divorce Courtney and excise her from his will. Courtney had called in a missing persons report about Kurt to the Seattle Police Department, pretending to be Kurt's mother - why, if she had nothing to hide?
Well there's that erratic behaviour I was talking about. I don't know, desperate, unhinged drug addict behaves strangely? Not all that odd to me, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that there may be an explanation for this. You have to ask the question why did Courtney even hire a private detective in the first place? Hardly what you need if you're trying to conduct a secret murder.
The Nick Broomfield film Kurt & Courtney later revealed a certain Eldon Hoke who claimed he had been offered $50,000 to kill Kurt, Days after making this claim, he himself was found dead.
Oh and I suppose Kim Gordon and Mark Lanegan and KURT'S GRANDFATHER, all of whom don't believe the suicide story are unfit for jury duty too.
Lanegan said he hadn't known Kurt to be suicidal - that means nothing, plenty of close friends and family say the same thing after a loved one kills themselves. In the same interview that Kim said she thought Kurt had been murdered, Thurston Moore essentially said the opposite.
So we've pretty much come full circle here. There is no hard, factual, indisputable evidence to link Courtney to Kurt's death. You can dress that up however you want with all the cirucumstantial evidence you like, but it proves nothing other than the fact that some people will believe what they want to believe regardless of the lack of real evidence.
Yes, it's called there being enough red flags surrounding the case to go with my gut feeling on this. That's what I'm doing here. You're right about two things, I don't have any concrete facts, nobody does, only Kurt and maybe someone else know forsure what happened above the greenhouse, but there is reasonable doubt. There was a shotty Police investigation, that is what his grandfather believes. There was enough 'erractic behaviour' by Courtney for her to atleast be questioned. One of the most famous people in the world dead under suspicious circumstances, and homicide was just ruled out automatically because of Rome which he denied all along was a suicide attempt. The crime scene alone was full of questions, like why was the empty shell found to the left of the body when it should have landed on his right? How did he have the motor skills after shooting himself up with that much heroin to put away his needle and spoon, roll his sleeve down and button it up and then put the gun in his mouth and pull the trigger? I know because he was a hardened junkie right? Well there's no proof of that, in fact Krist Novaselic and Kurt's best friend Dylan Carlson both have said that Kurt didn't do as much heroin as everybody thought. That things got sensationalized in the media which we all know can happen. Quite possible he was a functioning junkie, who was quite capable of dealing with his addiction. In fact it was his stomach problems that made him so upset and depressed. While being a junkie wouldn't help, especially the withdrawls, he was quoted as saying heroin was one of the only things that took the pain away. Chronic pain can also make people very depressed. And as far as the handwriting on the note being different, why did Courtney have a used handwriting analysis practice pad in her backpack? And like you said it's inconclusive, not irrefutable, that there are some experts who say the end was added. Here's one for you I'd love to see your response to, the matter of his will. He wanted it changed to take Courtney out of it. Why? He was filing for divorce on the grounds of adultery. The nanny was witness to all of this. Oh and El Duce took a lie detector test and passed, but that's probably not factual enough for you. Well it is for me. I think that Courtney Love and Michael DeWitt tried to kill Kurt in Rome and failed, but succeeded in Seattle. And your right I wouldn't get selected for jury duty in this case because I am aware of it and I am not impartial. You can't make a jury if you have any knowledge of the case. But according to you, I lack kowledge about this case because I don't have any 'facts' to support my opinion. I think I do, and nothing you say will change that. Just like I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, believe what you want to believe, and I'll do the same.
I think the point I'm trying to make to you is that all these 'facts' have been reported to you essentially by one man. I question why you choose to believe him? Just because Courtney doesn't seem to be a credible person doesn't automatically mean that Tom Grant is. If he were able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Courtney played a part in Kurt's death he would stand to make a lot of money. And we all know that money can be a big motivator.
Courtney had ample opportunity to let Kurt die on one of the many times he overdosed. Why didn't she?
In terms of the will - again this is all according to Tom Grant. You don't know that to be fact, you just have someone's word. Again I'll ask you, why would you hire a private detective if you were secretly trying to pull off a murder?
Polygraph tests are not scientific proof, there are many factors that can effect results.
You say Kurt wasn't doing as much heroin as people thought and that his use was mainly because of his stomach condition. However according to his cousin he was diagnosed as having bipolar disorder. The risk of suicide is statistically significant amongst bipolar sufferers. In addition there was a history of suicide in Kurt's family, with two of his uncles having killed themselves with guns.
In terms of his heroin use being over stated, addicts are notoriously secretive about their use. His band members, family and close friends were concerned enough that they staged an intervention, so his use was clearly having a significant impact on his life.
What I said about jury duty wasn't with reference to this case, so much as your belief that a foregone conclusion can be made without having proof beyond reasonable doubt. Are you familiar with the case of the West Memphis Three? Three guys convicted of killing three young boys based on circumstantial evidence and a confession from a guy who is technically classed as borderline retarded. If you take the emotion out of the case, you aren't left with anything particularly compelling. I think the murder theory in the case of Kurt Cobain is exactly the same.
i guess all you lovehaters think that courtney tried to kill kurt when he ODed in NYC in january 92 as well???
People will believe what they want to. It's a classic case of emotion overtaking common sense and factual information, nothing more nothing less. I bet when it comes to analysing a situation they feel much more neutral about that these people are probably a lot more rational. There's a reason the case has never been reopened, and that's because Tom Grant doesn't have any compelling evidence at all. He has circumstantial evidence, which none of these believers have ever checked to see if it's corroborated - they just take his word for it, becuase it fits with their loathing of Courtney Love. If he really had a solid case he would have presented it by now.
Kurt over dosed plenty of times, this is all backed up by his friends and band mates, they all felt his addiction was at such a point that they staged an intervention. These are telling facts about the state he was in towards the end.
I'm not interested in debating this issue but I will say, it's one thing to discuss and debate something and YES, everybody is entitled to an opinion but the awful misogyny in some of these responses saddens me
i guess all you lovehaters think that courtney tried to kill kurt when he ODed in NYC in january 92 as well???
People will believe what they want to. It's a classic case of emotion overtaking common sense and factual information, nothing more nothing less. I bet when it comes to analysing a situation they feel much more neutral about that these people are probably a lot more rational. There's a reason the case has never been reopened, and that's because Tom Grant doesn't have any compelling evidence at all. He has circumstantial evidence, which none of these believers have ever checked to see if it's corroborated - they just take his word for it, becuase it fits with their loathing of Courtney Love. If he really had a solid case he would have presented it by now.
Kurt over dosed plenty of times, this is all backed up by his friends and band mates, they all felt his addiction was at such a point that they staged an intervention. These are telling facts about the state he was in towards the end.
and lets face it if courtney is the criminal mastermind all the haters are accusing her of being it wouldve been way more simple to pump kurt full of dope than to put a shotgun in his hand, dont you reckon cause NO ONE wouldve questioned kurt cobain ODing yet again.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
1996: Ft Lauderdale
1998: Birmingham
2000: Charlotte, Tampa
2003: Tampa, Atlanta, Phoenix
2004: Kissimmee
2008: West Palm Beach, Bonnaroo, Columbia
2010: MSG2
2012: Music Midtown
2014: Memphis
2016: Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Jacksonville, JazzFest 2018: Wrigley 1, Fenway 1 2022: Nashville 2023: Ft. Worth II 2024: Baltimore
and lets face it if courtney is the criminal mastermind all the haters are accusing her of being it wouldve been way more simple to pump kurt full of dope than to put a shotgun in his hand, dont you reckon cause NO ONE wouldve questioned kurt cobain ODing yet again.
Yeah, the opportunities were pretty endless to be honest.
It's weird with all this hatred towards Courtney, it's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' situation, I wonder how many people hated her before the documentary came out? If you remove the suicide conspiracy, all people have left to hate about her is her erratic behaviour over the years. Funnily enough, a male equivalent like say Ozzy Osbourne, or Steven Tyler, or Eminem, or any other drugged up singer, never seems to attract quite so much hatred. I guess people just don't expect women to behave that way, no matter how fucked up their pasts have been, it's just not lady like.
Yeah, the opportunities were pretty endless to be honest.
It's weird with all this hatred towards Courtney, it's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' situation, I wonder how many people hated her before the documentary came out? If you remove the suicide conspiracy, all people have left to hate about her is her erratic behaviour over the years. Funnily enough, a male equivalent like say Ozzy Osbourne, or Steven Tyler, or Eminem, or any other drugged up singer, never seems to attract quite so much hatred. I guess people just don't expect women to behave that way, no matter how fucked up their pasts have been, it's just not lady like.
i dont understand all the hatred either. especially towards someone you dont even know.
sure she does some pretty extreme things but its hardly cause for the high level of hatred aimed at her. and besides tis not like she fed anyones kitten to a snake.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yeah, the opportunities were pretty endless to be honest.
It's weird with all this hatred towards Courtney, it's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' situation, I wonder how many people hated her before the documentary came out? If you remove the suicide conspiracy, all people have left to hate about her is her erratic behaviour over the years. Funnily enough, a male equivalent like say Ozzy Osbourne, or Steven Tyler, or Eminem, or any other drugged up singer, never seems to attract quite so much hatred. I guess people just don't expect women to behave that way, no matter how fucked up their pasts have been, it's just not lady like.
i dont understand all the hatred either. especially towards someone you dont even know.
sure she does some pretty extreme things but its hardly cause for the high level of hatred aimed at her. and besides tis not like she fed anyones kitten to a snake.
No she didn't, she just murdered her husband, and sold his entire legacy to the highest bidder. Hush money runs out fast, too bad she's got 0 talent, she's running out of Kurt's stuff. One day the truth will come out, and then she will go to jail where she belongs. Oh and I know I don't have any "proof" so fucking what? It's called suspicion, and a gut feeling, and that's all I need. If I was the chief of police in Seattle I would re-open the investigation, but I'm not so I'll have to keep my opinions inside this forum, where I have every right to say what I THINK happened. And It has nothing to do with Tom Grant, docs, or anybody else's opinions, it's what I think happened. I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in every post about this cause I know facepollution is going to come back with, "You have no facts" or "Tom Grant is a money hungry ass" or my favourite, " You just hate Courtney, so your opinion is distorted." True, but as I have said in the past I hated her way before Kurt died, that only fueled the fire. And I did buy the suicide story at first, but then again I also bought that it was terrorists who attacked the WTC. But upon further review....I don't believe either story. But it's probablyy because I hate the Bush administration and Courtney Love right? IMO
I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in every post about this cause I know facepollution is going to come back with, "You have no facts" or "Tom Grant is a money hungry ass" or my favourite, " You just hate Courtney, so your opinion is distorted." True, but as I have said in the past I hated her way before Kurt died, that only fueled the fire. And I did buy the suicide story at first, but then again I also bought that it was terrorists who attacked the WTC. But upon further review....I don't believe either story. But it's probablyy because I hate the Bush administration and Courtney Love right? IMO
I'm not questioning your right to an opinion, I'm questioning your ability to rationalise things. Your view is distorted, because even when looking at the cold hard facts of the situation, you still won't even entertain the fact that you could be wrong. You have no answers to the many holes in your argument that other people and myself have raised. What does that tell me about you? It tells me that you don't base your opinions on logic, or science or anything else. You base them on emotion, which makes you partisan, and thus renders your arguments pretty weak.
I wonder why you bother replying on here if you won't actually debate the subject at hand? If you didn't hate Courtney so much, would you be so ardent in your views? If you were just looking at the facts in the case?
Personally, I think that unless there is independent confirmation of the facts in the case Tom Grant has raised, there is no reason to believe what he is saying is true. I would happily read anything out there, I'm not dead set in my views, I appreciate Courtney is a crazy character and therefore theoreticaly speaking, she could have had something to do with it, but the facts don;t support it.
"High-velocity spatters are usually caused by gunshot wounds, although they can be caused by other weapons if the assailant exerts an extreme amount of force. They travel more than 100 feet per second and usually look like a fine spray of tiny droplets, less than one millimeter in diameter. Bullet wounds are unique because they can have both back and front spatters, or just back spatters. This depends on whether the bullet stopped after entering the victim's body or traveled through it. In most cases, the back spatter is much smaller than the front spatter because the spatter travels in the direction of the bullet.
Analysts always look for voids, or empty places in the spatters that indicate that something (or someone) caught the spatter instead of the surrounding surfaces. In the case of a high-density spatter, this may mean that the assailant got some of the victim's blood on himself or herself. Sometimes, a blood spatter can look like it was high velocity when it was actually a medium- or low-velocity spatter. Cast-off droplets can fall from larger drops of blood. A savvy analyst looks for larger drops of blood among the many tiny drops to see if they are castoffs. These types of droplets are also found often on places like ceilings when the rest of the spatters are concentrated elsewhere."
I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in every post about this cause I know facepollution is going to come back with, "You have no facts" or "Tom Grant is a money hungry ass" or my favourite, " You just hate Courtney, so your opinion is distorted." True, but as I have said in the past I hated her way before Kurt died, that only fueled the fire. And I did buy the suicide story at first, but then again I also bought that it was terrorists who attacked the WTC. But upon further review....I don't believe either story. But it's probablyy because I hate the Bush administration and Courtney Love right? IMO
I'm not questioning your right to an opinion, I'm questioning your ability to rationalise things. Your view is distorted, because even when looking at the cold hard facts of the situation, you still won't even entertain the fact that you could be wrong. You have no answers to the many holes in your argument that other people and myself have raised. What does that tell me about you? It tells me that you don't base your opinions on logic, or science or anything else. You base them on emotion, which makes you partisan, and thus renders your arguments pretty weak.
I wonder why you bother replying on here if you won't actually debate the subject at hand? If you didn't hate Courtney so much, would you be so ardent in your views? If you were just looking at the facts in the case?
Personally, I think that unless there is independent confirmation of the facts in the case Tom Grant has raised, there is no reason to believe what he is saying is true. I would happily read anything out there, I'm not dead set in my views, I appreciate Courtney is a crazy character and therefore theoreticaly speaking, she could have had something to do with it, but the facts don;t support it.
And do you know what this tells me about you? That you can't read. I already said that I am just going on a gut feeling mixed in with some shady circumstances. I don't have proof. I don't have an audio tape of her admitting it and I don't have a video of who was there the moment Kurt died, so therefore I don't have concrete facts that you so desperately need. But what I do have is a feeling. That may be emotional, but sometimes that is all you need. Cops, detectives, even security guards have solved major crimes based on a feeling, or urge. Look at the two security guards who just found that Jaycee Dugard and her children after she'd been missing for years. The woman said she just had a feeling after meeting those two little girls and asking them a few questions. She also said that Philip Garrido "looked suspiscious." She didn't have any facts or proof, what if she never acted on her feelings? Those girls would still be in is possession, and he would still be out there lurking around, a threat to innocent people everywhere. So sue me if I formed my opinion on feelings, it's all you need sometimes.
And do you know what this tells me about you? That you can't read. I already said that I am just going on a gut feeling mixed in with some shady circumstances. I don't have proof. I don't have an audio tape of her admitting it and I don't have a video of who was there the moment Kurt died, so therefore I don't have concrete facts that you so desperately need. But what I do have is a feeling. That may be emotional, but sometimes that is all you need. Cops, detectives, even security guards have solved major crimes based on a feeling, or urge. Look at the two security guards who just found that Jaycee Dugard and her children after she'd been missing for years. The woman said she just had a feeling after meeting those two little girls and asking them a few questions. She also said that Philip Garrido "looked suspiscious." She didn't have any facts or proof, what if she never acted on her feelings? Those girls would still be in is possession, and he would still be out there lurking around, a threat to innocent people everywhere. So sue me if I formed my opinion on feelings. It does work sometimes.
They are not comparable cases at all. Your gut feeling isn't based on anything other than your emotions. Had this conspiracy business never been brought up and it was fully accepted that the cause of death was suicide, and Courtney was just crazy old, erratic Courtney, you wouldn't have some gut feeling or hunch that she had something to with Kurt's death. Those female officers had a first hand experience which obviously raised a few flags. You have no such experience, all you have is one person's word written on the internet. What enables you to belive Tom Grant, is your already existing hate for Courtney and her behaviour.
I have no strong feelings either way. I like some of Courtney's music, but I equally acknowledge that she has behaved pretty badly at times over the years to the detriment of her daughter, which is not cool. I'm not some die hard fan out to prove you wrong or change your mind, I'm just confused as to how you consider your opinion valid when you are so closed to any sort of discussion?
Also not uncommon when wiping the prints off the gun. My uncle was a cop for thirty years and weve talked about this.
Look bottom line is there will always be questions and people like me who think there is more to this than meets the eye. Like any conspiracy, you have people on each side saying they "know" the truth, Kennedy's assassination, 9/11 etc. And believe me, it's not like I would be happier if I knew she killed him, it still sucks, no matter how it happened. And I'm not looking to be convinced either way, I'm not a judge, just a guy with a theory. And you're right that I don't like Courtney, I really think she's a fucking parasite, but in no way does that make her a murderer. I think she is.
This is from a post I wrote Jan 26. If you had've taken the time to read it, you would've noticed this part;
And I'm not looking to be convinced either way, I'm not a judge, just a guy with a theory. And you're right that I don't like Courtney, I really think she's a fucking parasite, but in no way does that make her a murderer. I think she is.
Nuff said. Don't try and paint me as a stubborn hater who's alone in this way of thinking. Far from it. And you say that these two cases don't have anything to do with eachother and then you say the WM3 case is similar to Kurt's death? How do you rationalize this in your head? You are the one who is unwilling to admit you may be wrong. I had a valid point when I said that somebody going on a gut feeling has lead to the solving of a crime. And they weren't "officers" or cops, they were SECURITY GUARDS at a school. They are not trained to solve crimes but rather to notice things out of the ordinary. And if the fucking cops in Seattle had've done their jobs right, Courtney would've at least been questioned. Murder never should've been ruled out until it was investigated. That's all I'm saying. She should've been interogated. And don't give me she was grief stricken and upset, when a child is abducted the first suspects the police question is the parents, no matter how upset they are, it's procedure. I'd ask her things like; Why'd you file a missing persons report when you knew where he was, and why did you impersonate his mother?' If you were so worried about him why did you stay in LA? Did you know he was filing for divorce? How did this make you feel? If you thought your husband was suicidal why did you ever leave his side? Why did you return the Lexus? I would've questioned the nanny, Michael DeWitt, Dylan Carlson, Joe Momma, anyone who was mentioned being the last to see him alive. There are detectives who can tell by peoples body language if they are lying or not. And usually it's a hunch or a feeling that makes someone a suspect. Only then is an investigation done, where facts are gathered to either prove innocence or guilt. And that was never done in this case. That's the only comparison I see with the WM3 case. The cops fucked up and had their investigations done before they even looked at the crime scene. Cops don't like punk kids or rich rock stars. And they never like to admit they might have been wrong. And because of this there are innocent people in jail, and guilty people walking free. Courtney Love and Terry Hobbs being two of them.
The comparison to the WM3 case was actually a comparison with people like yourself who use second hand information as fact to convince themselves that something is true. People found it easy to believe that those guys commited those murders because of the type of people they are, i.e misfits into 'satanic' music etc. Quite similarly, you believe Courtney is guilty becuase of her behaviour. Given your hatred towards her, I don't think someone in your position (and there are a lot of 'you' out there) is capable of any objectivity. I don't need to paint you as anything, you've already chosen what you want to believe, regardless of the lack of evidence. If you were to say "the whole thing seems strange to me, I think there could be something in it" I would totally get where you were coming from. I agree, there are some lingering questions that remain unanswered, however, that doesn't automatically give you a foregone conclusion.
According to the police chief who investigated, they initially did investigate it as a homicide. They would have been checking for things like inconsistencies in blood spatter (as I mentioned a few posts up from here). That's a very hard thing to fake, and probably more than Dewitt (or whoever you think was responsible) would have been capable of pulling off. You have to ask the question why would someone choose to blow his head off off when they could have just given him a lethal overdose and spared themselves the difficulty of trying to stage a far messier suicide? These are far more pertinent questions than pretty much anything you've come up with.
Oh, and according to what I've read, the women in the Jaycee Lee Dugard case were campus police officers.
Who cares what their job title is? One step up from mall cop. They didn't have DNA evidence, they went on a hunch. I've also never heard that it was investigated as a murder, guess I'll have to look into that. Which brings me to this, I don't make these assumptions without doing research. I choose to believe Tom Grant and what he found. I also did my research when it came to the WM3, and I came to the conclusion that these boys are innocent and the real killer(s) is/are still out there. I understand your point that assumptions and lack of facts were essentially what put these three men in jail, and that is wrong, I agree 100%. But I can assure you that I don't base my opinion solely on the basis that I hate her. I hate the Jonas Brothers too but I don't think they're murderers. I do think she's capable of horrible things, and there is enough red flags to raise questions. That's it. It's not like this is so open and shut. And in the long run, I would be happy if she had've been questioned and interrogated properly and passed a lie detector test. Those are the facts I'm looking for. Only then I will believe her. :!:
You have to ask the question why would someone choose to blow his head off off when they could have just given him a lethal overdose and spared themselves the difficulty of trying to stage a far messier suicide?
This can be argued either way. Why would Kurt want to end it so violently when he could've just overdosed? It sounds like whoever did it didn't want it to fail like it did in Rome. Whether it was murder or suicide, this was more final than a possible od. So your "facts" can be argued either way too.
Who cares what their job title is? One step up from mall cop. They didn't have DNA evidence, they went on a hunch.
Well you said in your previous post that they weren't trained to solve crimes. Presumably if they were in fact police officers, they were trained. And for the record, I don't disagree with you that sometimes a gut feeling can be accurate, but it would need to be a first hand experience. How do you know that if you met Tom Grant that you wouldn't get a gut feeling that he was dishonest? Or that if you met Courtney Love that she might not be as bad as she comes across in the media? You don't know.
"Lastly, following Grant's hypothesis of the murder, which began the segment, the SPD rep commented:
"Our detectives actually went into this investigation on the premise that this was a homicide. That's the way they conducted this investigation. So there was a very thorough, comprehensive investigation done from the beginning and everything that the detectives encountered indicated to them that this was a suicide."
Which brings me to this, I don't make these assumptions without doing research. I choose to believe Tom Grant and what he found.
But what research have you done? You've read a few websites. Research would be seeing the 'evidence' first hand, having independent, impartial experts validating the authenticity of these different claims. This is why Tom Grant has never succeeded in getting the case reopened, because there is nothing to say that he is telling the truth.
Ever watched documentaries about JFK's assasination? I've seen quite a few, and each one puts forth a convincing case. If you took it on face value and you only saw one of them, it would be quite easy to believe that that must be the truth - but that doesn't mean it is.
I can assure you that I don't base my opinion solely on the basis that I hate her. I hate the Jonas Brothers too but I don't think they're murderers
No, but it's that hatred that makes you put aside the factual evidence in favour of believing a tenuous theory by somebody you haven't even met. That's a lot of faith to put in somebody who could quite legitimately be motivated by financial gain.
I do think she's capable of horrible things, and there is enough red flags to raise questions. That's it. It's not like this is so open and shut. And in the long run, I would be happy if she had've been questioned and interrogated properly and passed a lie detector test. Those are the facts I'm looking for. Only then I will believe her. :!:
Lie detector tests are notoriously unreliable, and it is quite possible for people to cheat them. See I don't see it as a case of believing her. She has never addressed the issue, and surely one of the most basic civil liberties is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
This can be argued either way. Why would Kurt want to end it so violently when he could've just overdosed? It sounds like whoever did it didn't want it to fail like it did in Rome. Whether it was murder or suicide, this was more final than a possible od. So your "facts" can be argued either way too.
Well it's not really a fact is it? It's logic, and that would be a huge risk for someone to take. And you're kind of avoiding my main point, which is that it would take an absolute expert to mimic the blood spatter of a suicide. Unless you had shot someone before, I'm guessing most people wouldn't know how the blood would spread from shooting someone in the head. Yet, the blood spatter was obviously deemed consistent with an unassisted gun shot to the head. It's facts like this which would have helped the Seattle police come to their conclusions.
Comments
"
what have you got for that one??
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
Apologies, I deemed it irrelevant to the discussion
No... The quote is meant to exhibit the ones closest to the victim (Band mates) rarely have perspective on possible conspiracies...
That's all..
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
Fair, I hadn't really heard it before. To be honest I don't really buy it either, it's hardly a proven fact that they rarely have perspective. Some people might not, but I'm sure others do. Like I said, it's not exactly relevant to the factual information in the case.
I believe you're WRONG, and I also think you shouldn't have posted this in the first place if you didn't want to spark a debate. And as far a PJ goes, I'd love to know their opinions on this, and I'm sure they have one. Frances was not an infant when he died, and she was so upset about losing Kurt that she promptly made a movie and started fucking Ed Norton. I can't for the life of me understand why this bothers you in the first place? Are you related to her? Does she call you at home, asking if the mean people on the PJ message board are saying they think she was involved in her husbands death? If not, why the fuck do you care if a bunch of people think she's capable of such things? People are entitled to their opinion and you're not going to change them with your high and mighty defence of Courtney Love. Just like no one is trying to change your mind that she didi it. Agree to disagree. And yes you can say that you're "disgusted" with those who think the douchebag is to blame for his death, just as much as we can say that you and anyone else who defend her are fucked in the head.
Whilst I don't particulaarly agree with the words the OP wrote, calling anyone who defends Courtney "fucked in the head" is a bit much. I work on logical reasoning and fact only. You on the other hand seem to think, conjecture and erratic behaviour are enought to find someone guilty. God forbid you should ever end up doing jury service.
I don't think it's a bit much. I think it's right on the money. I don't give a fuck about you or what you 'work on' or if you think you have 'facts' and I only work on 'conjecture and erratic behavior.' I think she's guilty because of the facts in front of me. Just because you think Tom Grant is wrong dosen't mean I do. You think he's wrong. Now who's judging based on peronal feelings. You obviuosly think he's not credible, so why should I think Courtney's word is the truth?
And if you want to know why I think she did it here is just a few of the 'facts' that you say I'm lacking in my judgement;
"Something else emerged about the suicide note a bit later - more fuel for conspiracies. The last lines - "Please keep going Courtney for Frances for her life which will be so much happier without me. I love you I love you!" - were apparently added to the note some time after the bulk was written. There are those who claim that these lines alter the whole tenor of the note and that they are forged - evidence that Kurt was, in fact, murdered. Check out the web today and there are thousands of pages devoted to this. Once site is even called justiceforkurt.com. The theories mostly revolve around the fact that, once Kurt had shot himself up with three times the fatal dose of heroin, he managed to roll down and rebutton his sleeve, then tidy away his works, and then raise the shotgun and pull the trigger. Impossible, some say. Then there was the muddled matter of how many and whose fingerprints were on the gun. Others suggest that Kurt was about the divorce Courtney and excise her from his will. Courtney had called in a missing persons report about Kurt to the Seattle Police Department, pretending to be Kurt's mother - why, if she had nothing to hide? The Nick Broomfield film Kurt & Courtney later revealed a certain Eldon Hoke who claimed he had been offered $50,000 to kill Kurt, Days after making this claim, he himself was found dead.
Oh and I suppose Kim Gordon and Mark Lanegan and KURT'S GRANDFATHER, all of whom don't believe the suicide story are unfit for jury duty too.
Nothing to do with personal feelings, like I said I deal in fact. Tom Grant in 16 years hasn't produced anything but circumstantial evidence. There have been no smoking guns (pardon the pun), and if he really did have any credible evidence don't you think he would have shared it by now? Oh, and Courtney has never addressed the issue, so technically she isn't trying to sell you anything.
That is not a fact. Of all the hand writing experts who have analysed the note there has never been a unanimous agreement. Such a practice as graphology is always subject to human error anyway.
Again not factual evidence. This "three times the fatal dose" claim came from a journalist (and we all know how reliable they are!!) who had spoken to a police source - there are all kinds of ways in which this could have been mis-reported. In addition, experts are not in agreement over what constitutes a lethal dose. Some believe a hardened addict like Kurt could have built up a tolerance to the reported level found in his body.
Well there's that erratic behaviour I was talking about. I don't know, desperate, unhinged drug addict behaves strangely? Not all that odd to me, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that there may be an explanation for this. You have to ask the question why did Courtney even hire a private detective in the first place? Hardly what you need if you're trying to conduct a secret murder.
Circumstantial, it doesn't prove anything.
Lanegan said he hadn't known Kurt to be suicidal - that means nothing, plenty of close friends and family say the same thing after a loved one kills themselves. In the same interview that Kim said she thought Kurt had been murdered, Thurston Moore essentially said the opposite.
So we've pretty much come full circle here. There is no hard, factual, indisputable evidence to link Courtney to Kurt's death. You can dress that up however you want with all the cirucumstantial evidence you like, but it proves nothing other than the fact that some people will believe what they want to believe regardless of the lack of real evidence.
Courtney had ample opportunity to let Kurt die on one of the many times he overdosed. Why didn't she?
In terms of the will - again this is all according to Tom Grant. You don't know that to be fact, you just have someone's word. Again I'll ask you, why would you hire a private detective if you were secretly trying to pull off a murder?
Polygraph tests are not scientific proof, there are many factors that can effect results.
You say Kurt wasn't doing as much heroin as people thought and that his use was mainly because of his stomach condition. However according to his cousin he was diagnosed as having bipolar disorder. The risk of suicide is statistically significant amongst bipolar sufferers. In addition there was a history of suicide in Kurt's family, with two of his uncles having killed themselves with guns.
In terms of his heroin use being over stated, addicts are notoriously secretive about their use. His band members, family and close friends were concerned enough that they staged an intervention, so his use was clearly having a significant impact on his life.
What I said about jury duty wasn't with reference to this case, so much as your belief that a foregone conclusion can be made without having proof beyond reasonable doubt. Are you familiar with the case of the West Memphis Three? Three guys convicted of killing three young boys based on circumstantial evidence and a confession from a guy who is technically classed as borderline retarded. If you take the emotion out of the case, you aren't left with anything particularly compelling. I think the murder theory in the case of Kurt Cobain is exactly the same.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
People will believe what they want to. It's a classic case of emotion overtaking common sense and factual information, nothing more nothing less. I bet when it comes to analysing a situation they feel much more neutral about that these people are probably a lot more rational. There's a reason the case has never been reopened, and that's because Tom Grant doesn't have any compelling evidence at all. He has circumstantial evidence, which none of these believers have ever checked to see if it's corroborated - they just take his word for it, becuase it fits with their loathing of Courtney Love. If he really had a solid case he would have presented it by now.
Kurt over dosed plenty of times, this is all backed up by his friends and band mates, they all felt his addiction was at such a point that they staged an intervention. These are telling facts about the state he was in towards the end.
I'm disgusted
and lets face it if courtney is the criminal mastermind all the haters are accusing her of being it wouldve been way more simple to pump kurt full of dope than to put a shotgun in his hand, dont you reckon cause NO ONE wouldve questioned kurt cobain ODing yet again.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
1996: Ft Lauderdale
1998: Birmingham
2000: Charlotte, Tampa
2003: Tampa, Atlanta, Phoenix
2004: Kissimmee
2008: West Palm Beach, Bonnaroo, Columbia
2010: MSG2
2012: Music Midtown
2014: Memphis
2018: Wrigley 1, Fenway 1
2022: Nashville
2023: Ft. Worth II
2024: Baltimore
Upcoming: 2025 Hollywood, FL Night 2
Yeah, the opportunities were pretty endless to be honest.
It's weird with all this hatred towards Courtney, it's a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' situation, I wonder how many people hated her before the documentary came out? If you remove the suicide conspiracy, all people have left to hate about her is her erratic behaviour over the years. Funnily enough, a male equivalent like say Ozzy Osbourne, or Steven Tyler, or Eminem, or any other drugged up singer, never seems to attract quite so much hatred. I guess people just don't expect women to behave that way, no matter how fucked up their pasts have been, it's just not lady like.
thats not even a doco.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i dont understand all the hatred either. especially towards someone you dont even know.
sure she does some pretty extreme things but its hardly cause for the high level of hatred aimed at her. and besides tis not like she fed anyones kitten to a snake.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
IMO
I'm not questioning your right to an opinion, I'm questioning your ability to rationalise things. Your view is distorted, because even when looking at the cold hard facts of the situation, you still won't even entertain the fact that you could be wrong. You have no answers to the many holes in your argument that other people and myself have raised. What does that tell me about you? It tells me that you don't base your opinions on logic, or science or anything else. You base them on emotion, which makes you partisan, and thus renders your arguments pretty weak.
I wonder why you bother replying on here if you won't actually debate the subject at hand? If you didn't hate Courtney so much, would you be so ardent in your views? If you were just looking at the facts in the case?
Personally, I think that unless there is independent confirmation of the facts in the case Tom Grant has raised, there is no reason to believe what he is saying is true. I would happily read anything out there, I'm not dead set in my views, I appreciate Courtney is a crazy character and therefore theoreticaly speaking, she could have had something to do with it, but the facts don;t support it.
"High-velocity spatters are usually caused by gunshot wounds, although they can be caused by other weapons if the assailant exerts an extreme amount of force. They travel more than 100 feet per second and usually look like a fine spray of tiny droplets, less than one millimeter in diameter. Bullet wounds are unique because they can have both back and front spatters, or just back spatters. This depends on whether the bullet stopped after entering the victim's body or traveled through it. In most cases, the back spatter is much smaller than the front spatter because the spatter travels in the direction of the bullet.
Analysts always look for voids, or empty places in the spatters that indicate that something (or someone) caught the spatter instead of the surrounding surfaces. In the case of a high-density spatter, this may mean that the assailant got some of the victim's blood on himself or herself. Sometimes, a blood spatter can look like it was high velocity when it was actually a medium- or low-velocity spatter. Cast-off droplets can fall from larger drops of blood. A savvy analyst looks for larger drops of blood among the many tiny drops to see if they are castoffs. These types of droplets are also found often on places like ceilings when the rest of the spatters are concentrated elsewhere."
They are not comparable cases at all. Your gut feeling isn't based on anything other than your emotions. Had this conspiracy business never been brought up and it was fully accepted that the cause of death was suicide, and Courtney was just crazy old, erratic Courtney, you wouldn't have some gut feeling or hunch that she had something to with Kurt's death. Those female officers had a first hand experience which obviously raised a few flags. You have no such experience, all you have is one person's word written on the internet. What enables you to belive Tom Grant, is your already existing hate for Courtney and her behaviour.
I have no strong feelings either way. I like some of Courtney's music, but I equally acknowledge that she has behaved pretty badly at times over the years to the detriment of her daughter, which is not cool. I'm not some die hard fan out to prove you wrong or change your mind, I'm just confused as to how you consider your opinion valid when you are so closed to any sort of discussion?
Look bottom line is there will always be questions and people like me who think there is more to this than meets the eye. Like any conspiracy, you have people on each side saying they "know" the truth, Kennedy's assassination, 9/11 etc. And believe me, it's not like I would be happier if I knew she killed him, it still sucks, no matter how it happened. And I'm not looking to be convinced either way, I'm not a judge, just a guy with a theory. And you're right that I don't like Courtney, I really think she's a fucking parasite, but in no way does that make her a murderer. I think she is.
This is from a post I wrote Jan 26. If you had've taken the time to read it, you would've noticed this part;
Nuff said. Don't try and paint me as a stubborn hater who's alone in this way of thinking. Far from it. And you say that these two cases don't have anything to do with eachother and then you say the WM3 case is similar to Kurt's death? How do you rationalize this in your head? You are the one who is unwilling to admit you may be wrong. I had a valid point when I said that somebody going on a gut feeling has lead to the solving of a crime. And they weren't "officers" or cops, they were SECURITY GUARDS at a school. They are not trained to solve crimes but rather to notice things out of the ordinary. And if the fucking cops in Seattle had've done their jobs right, Courtney would've at least been questioned. Murder never should've been ruled out until it was investigated. That's all I'm saying. She should've been interogated. And don't give me she was grief stricken and upset, when a child is abducted the first suspects the police question is the parents, no matter how upset they are, it's procedure. I'd ask her things like; Why'd you file a missing persons report when you knew where he was, and why did you impersonate his mother?' If you were so worried about him why did you stay in LA? Did you know he was filing for divorce? How did this make you feel? If you thought your husband was suicidal why did you ever leave his side? Why did you return the Lexus? I would've questioned the nanny, Michael DeWitt, Dylan Carlson, Joe Momma, anyone who was mentioned being the last to see him alive. There are detectives who can tell by peoples body language if they are lying or not. And usually it's a hunch or a feeling that makes someone a suspect. Only then is an investigation done, where facts are gathered to either prove innocence or guilt. And that was never done in this case. That's the only comparison I see with the WM3 case. The cops fucked up and had their investigations done before they even looked at the crime scene. Cops don't like punk kids or rich rock stars. And they never like to admit they might have been wrong. And because of this there are innocent people in jail, and guilty people walking free. Courtney Love and Terry Hobbs being two of them.
The comparison to the WM3 case was actually a comparison with people like yourself who use second hand information as fact to convince themselves that something is true. People found it easy to believe that those guys commited those murders because of the type of people they are, i.e misfits into 'satanic' music etc. Quite similarly, you believe Courtney is guilty becuase of her behaviour. Given your hatred towards her, I don't think someone in your position (and there are a lot of 'you' out there) is capable of any objectivity. I don't need to paint you as anything, you've already chosen what you want to believe, regardless of the lack of evidence. If you were to say "the whole thing seems strange to me, I think there could be something in it" I would totally get where you were coming from. I agree, there are some lingering questions that remain unanswered, however, that doesn't automatically give you a foregone conclusion.
According to the police chief who investigated, they initially did investigate it as a homicide. They would have been checking for things like inconsistencies in blood spatter (as I mentioned a few posts up from here). That's a very hard thing to fake, and probably more than Dewitt (or whoever you think was responsible) would have been capable of pulling off. You have to ask the question why would someone choose to blow his head off off when they could have just given him a lethal overdose and spared themselves the difficulty of trying to stage a far messier suicide? These are far more pertinent questions than pretty much anything you've come up with.
Oh, and according to what I've read, the women in the Jaycee Lee Dugard case were campus police officers.
Who cares what their job title is? One step up from mall cop. They didn't have DNA evidence, they went on a hunch. I've also never heard that it was investigated as a murder, guess I'll have to look into that. Which brings me to this, I don't make these assumptions without doing research. I choose to believe Tom Grant and what he found. I also did my research when it came to the WM3, and I came to the conclusion that these boys are innocent and the real killer(s) is/are still out there. I understand your point that assumptions and lack of facts were essentially what put these three men in jail, and that is wrong, I agree 100%. But I can assure you that I don't base my opinion solely on the basis that I hate her. I hate the Jonas Brothers too but I don't think they're murderers. I do think she's capable of horrible things, and there is enough red flags to raise questions. That's it. It's not like this is so open and shut. And in the long run, I would be happy if she had've been questioned and interrogated properly and passed a lie detector test. Those are the facts I'm looking for. Only then I will believe her. :!:
This can be argued either way. Why would Kurt want to end it so violently when he could've just overdosed? It sounds like whoever did it didn't want it to fail like it did in Rome. Whether it was murder or suicide, this was more final than a possible od. So your "facts" can be argued either way too.
Well you said in your previous post that they weren't trained to solve crimes. Presumably if they were in fact police officers, they were trained. And for the record, I don't disagree with you that sometimes a gut feeling can be accurate, but it would need to be a first hand experience. How do you know that if you met Tom Grant that you wouldn't get a gut feeling that he was dishonest? Or that if you met Courtney Love that she might not be as bad as she comes across in the media? You don't know.
http://www.sshep.com/kurtnew.htm
"Lastly, following Grant's hypothesis of the murder, which began the segment, the SPD rep commented:
"Our detectives actually went into this investigation on the premise that this was a homicide. That's the way they conducted this investigation. So there was a very thorough, comprehensive investigation done from the beginning and everything that the detectives encountered indicated to them that this was a suicide."
But what research have you done? You've read a few websites. Research would be seeing the 'evidence' first hand, having independent, impartial experts validating the authenticity of these different claims. This is why Tom Grant has never succeeded in getting the case reopened, because there is nothing to say that he is telling the truth.
Ever watched documentaries about JFK's assasination? I've seen quite a few, and each one puts forth a convincing case. If you took it on face value and you only saw one of them, it would be quite easy to believe that that must be the truth - but that doesn't mean it is.
No, but it's that hatred that makes you put aside the factual evidence in favour of believing a tenuous theory by somebody you haven't even met. That's a lot of faith to put in somebody who could quite legitimately be motivated by financial gain.
Lie detector tests are notoriously unreliable, and it is quite possible for people to cheat them. See I don't see it as a case of believing her. She has never addressed the issue, and surely one of the most basic civil liberties is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty?
Well it's not really a fact is it? It's logic, and that would be a huge risk for someone to take. And you're kind of avoiding my main point, which is that it would take an absolute expert to mimic the blood spatter of a suicide. Unless you had shot someone before, I'm guessing most people wouldn't know how the blood would spread from shooting someone in the head. Yet, the blood spatter was obviously deemed consistent with an unassisted gun shot to the head. It's facts like this which would have helped the Seattle police come to their conclusions.