I wish people would stop blaming Courtney for Kurt's death

left the porch

facepollution wrote:

left the porch wrote:

Is that you Courtney?

Great come back :roll:

I thought so. :P

left the porch

catefrances wrote:

me too.
courtney says some fucked up stuff and does some stupid things(as many people do)but kill her husband???.. get real people.. it didnt happen.

Wow were you there? Pretty self assured, but the fact remains, there is questions and what I consider reasonable doubt surrounding this case. Like I said earlier, Courtney is BEYOND fucked up to the point her own daughter petitioned the court to let her go live with Kurt's family. She is a talentless, attention addict who has become nothin but a scar on the legacy of Nirvana and Kurt specifically.

I would never go as far as saying I KNOW she was involved, I THINK she was. And so do a lot of other people, including people who know her personally or have met her, like ex boyfriends before she was famous and her own father, although he dosen't seem to have much credibility, but it definitely speaks to the character of the whole 'Love' family.

Dave Grohl and Krist Novaselic both hate her guts and that speaks volumes. Maybe not that she is a muderer, but that she IS a rotten human being.

LukinFan

is this the doc that you all are talking about:

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Michael ... B000AYEL10

keeponrockin

Crazy, but I don't think she was talentless... Just my $0.02

Jack_C_Gregory

LukinFan wrote:

is this the doc that you all are talking about:

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Michael ... B000AYEL10

This is the doc:

http://www.amazon.com/Kurt-Courtney-Cob ... 813&sr=1-1

Pepe Silvia

i don't know if she did it, had it done or not and we will probably never know but a few things are odd to me

mostly how can someone buy a shotgun, not just put 1 shell in but fully load it (which means pumping it a lot) putting the gun in your mouth, pulling the trigger....and not leave a single finger print anywhere on the entire gun!? that just seems next to impossible without gloves on or something, which he wasn't wearing.

also, courtney lied about talking to him. he left a rehab and went missing for a few days then was found dead...she said she never spoke to him but her hotel records shows she was on the phone with him for over an hour before he left the rehab. why lie about it?

he was looking into a divorce and they had a prenuptial agreement and this was before her band, hole, really broke

his credit card was used for a few days after he was dead but she never had anyone look into it

they were both junkies and if any of you know a real junkie they don't think too rationally. i can see her panicking over the divorce and not getting anything and doing it or having it done. especially with how much heroin was in his system, which doctors say wouldve fucked him up too much to pull the trigger, it could easily be seen he was shot up with a large amount and when he was nodding out someone shooting him, wiping the prints off the gun and leaving

Pepe Silvia

facepollution wrote:

left the porch wrote:

And if you wanted to use a gun why use a shotgun? He had the money and the means to get whatever he wanted, and he chose a gun that would be hard to operate with the barrel in his mouth, and being as high as he was. Just dosen't make any sense.

Um yeah it does make perfect sense. Kurt went awol, he didn't want people to find him, so he probably used whatever he happened to have at home - a shot gun.

um no, actually it doesn't because the shot gun was purchased AFTER he went awol.

i don't own any guns, is there a difference in waiting limits for hand guns and shot guns? i could be wrong but i think it may be easier to buy something like a rifle which could be used to hunt than to buy a hand gun, if that's the case that would explain why he would buy a shot gun and not something else. also, if the point is to kill yourself it seems like a shot gun would work better than 1 bullet and what if you aim a little too much to the side and just really fuck yourself up instead of killing yourself?

facepollution

Pepe Silvia wrote:

um no, actually it doesn't because the shot gun was purchased AFTER he went awol.

i don't own any guns, is there a difference in waiting limits for hand guns and shot guns? i could be wrong but i think it may be easier to buy something like a rifle which could be used to hunt than to buy a hand gun, if that's the case that would explain why he would buy a shot gun and not something else. also, if the point is to kill yourself it seems like a shot gun would work better than 1 bullet and what if you aim a little too much to the side and just really fuck yourself up instead of killing yourself?

Fair enough, it's been quite a while since I watched the documentary or read up on it. However, you do have to ask the question why was he buying it in the first place? I don't think he was planning the perfect suicide, I don't think logic really plays such a part in these types of situation at all.

My point remains, that because people don't like Courtney, they find it easier to believe that she could have had something to do with his death. People kind of forget that she was married to a hopless addict, who I'm sure caused her and his family a lot of pain and grief.

Just because Courtney isn't deemed particularly credible, doesn't automatically make Tom Grant's theory fact. When you think about it, all this circumstantial evidence is no more credible than the evidence used to convict the West Memphis Three. I find it farcical that people believe they are making a completely unbiased assessment of the evidence, when they all so clearly detest Courtney. I completely understand why people don't like her, she's obnoxious to the extreme, but she's lead a fucked up life since birth, and unfortuantely she's never really gotten herself sorted.

left the porch

facepollution wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

um no, actually it doesn't because the shot gun was purchased AFTER he went awol.

i don't own any guns, is there a difference in waiting limits for hand guns and shot guns? i could be wrong but i think it may be easier to buy something like a rifle which could be used to hunt than to buy a hand gun, if that's the case that would explain why he would buy a shot gun and not something else. also, if the point is to kill yourself it seems like a shot gun would work better than 1 bullet and what if you aim a little too much to the side and just really fuck yourself up instead of killing yourself?

Fair enough, it's been quite a while since I watched the documentary or read up on it. However, you do have to ask the question why was he buying it in the first place? I don't think he was planning the perfect suicide, I don't think logic really plays such a part in these types of situation at all.

My point remains, that because people don't like Courtney, they find it easier to believe that she could have had something to do with his death. People kind of forget that she was married to a hopless addict, who I'm sure caused her and his family a lot of pain and grief.

Just because Courtney isn't deemed particularly credible, doesn't automatically make Tom Grant's theory fact. When you think about it, all this circumstantial evidence is no more credible than the evidence used to convict the West Memphis Three. I find it farcical that people believe they are making a completely unbiased assessment of the evidence, when they all so clearly detest Courtney. I completely understand why people don't like her, she's obnoxious to the extreme, but she's lead a fucked up life since birth, and unfortuantely she's never really gotten herself sorted.

100% agreed. I hate Courtney Love. I did as soon as I saw her and heard about her history, and then how quick the marriage took place, just made her seem like a gold digging leech. And then when Kurt died I heard her speech that day and I believed her and I actually felt sorry for her. And then she revealed her true colours. Turns out that was just another Oscar worthy performance that day in Seattle where the people who loved Kurt's music and what he stood for fell for it hook line and sinker. She's not a musician, she KNOWS musicians who write songs for her sorry ass. Billy Corgan I'm talking to you. She's a manipulator and an actress and not a very good one. Oh yeah she played a heroin addict to a t, she had lot's of experience. And she is selling Kurt and Nirvana to the highest bidder, which is just sickening. So the fact that I can't stand her or anything she's done, really dosen't affect the way I feel about her involvement/non-involvement in Kurt's death. The fact that I think she's capable of ANYTHING does. Murder really dosen't seem like such a stretch. But, this is just my opinion. I really hate always having to say that.

left the porch

People kind of forget that she was married to a hopless addict, who I'm sure caused her and his family a lot of pain and grief.

SHE WAS AN ADDICT TOO! SHE DID HEROIN WHILE SHE WAS PREGNANT!!!!

facepollution

^^^^^^^^

I think that's a pretty black and white view of something you don't really appear to know a lot about. Courtney's life has been shitty right from birth. Neither of her parents wanted her, she was sent from one boarding school to another, to relatives who didn't want her. I'm not trying to excuse her behaviour, but there is reasoning behind it - people who have fucked up childhoods usually end up having fucked up adulthoods. I suspect a natural result of constant rejection is that you end up craving attention. Yes it's ugly and unattractive to a more well-rounded person, and no I'm not saying people should feel sorry for her, so much as I think people should hold off the judgement and try to understand why she may be that way.

I don't think her reaction to Kurt's death was fake or insincere, she practically had a break down. I remember seeing Hole play at the Reading Festival in '95 and it was absolutely heart-wrenching to watch. It was clear she was in no fit state to be performing, but say what you like about Courtney, she's always been a fighter, even if she's fighting for the wrong things.

In terms of her music, I understand where you are coming from, but again you are kind of picking the convenient bits that support your argument. Billy Corgan co-wrote five of twelve songs on the record, the rest were written by the whole band, with Courtney writing all the lyrics. As a lyricist I think she is talented, and let's be fair other artists like say Elton John, who writes the music but not the lyrics, still get to keep their credibility.

I totally agree that her behaviour over the years has been shocking and at times quite offensive. I think this Hole 'reunion' she's doing, without any of the other original members, is faintly ridiculous. In terms of selling Kurt and Nirvana to the highest bidder, yeah I understand why it upsets people, but at the same time the whole Kurt as a deity thing really irks me too. I don't like to be cold, but he was a drug addict who gave up trying to sort his problems out for the sake of his child, and chose to give in.

facepollution

left the porch wrote:

People kind of forget that she was married to a hopless addict, who I'm sure caused her and his family a lot of pain and grief.

SHE WAS AN ADDICT TOO! SHE DID HEROIN WHILE SHE WAS PREGNANT!!!!

Yeah not knowingly though. And you're missing the point I'm making, which is that Kurt wasn't some saint.

left the porch

Never said he was.

left the porch

I agree with you that he should not be idolized in any way especially if he really did commit suicide. This whole thing started with somebody else posting about wishing people would stop blaming Courtney for Kurt's Death, and I felt the need to respond. I think with the research I have done, which includes more than the doc, I've read a few books about Cobain, so this isn't just some wing ding theory. And Tom Grant is not the only one who thinks she had him killed. You claim Kurt killed himself because he was fucked up on drugs and had a shitty time growing up. Courtney was also fucked up on drugs and had a shitty childhood yet she never felt the need to put a gun in her mouth. And it's not like she's cleaned up or anything, she's still fucked up on something, the last I saw from her was a picture in SPIN where she's singing Paradise City with Slash and Duff. She's like a train wreck that just keeps getting worse.

Two words. Poor. Frances.

youngster

Is it that hard to grasp the fact that a fucked up junkie who sang for a popular band, hated fame and shunned notoriety would get fucked up on H and blow his brains out? You people are trying to give Kurt WAY more credit than is due. If you read the biography "Heavier Than Heaven" by Charles Cross, Krist and Dave both said on numerous occasions Kurt saying he'd be better off dead and him trying to commit suicide. This was going to happen no matter what. The only thing Courtney can be blamed for is not being there and supporting him and trying to get him off drugs. But with Courtney as much of a junkie as Kurt, it's like the blind leading the blind.

left the porch

I always wondered how much he hated fame. Why would someone go into the music business, and sign a contract with DGC if they didn't want to be famous? And don't say he didn't know what he was getting into, you don't sign with Geffen and not think you're at least going to be a little popular. He could have easily taken the fronted money, the first royalties from Nevermind, and fucked off to some island in the Carribean and never be seen or heard from again. I think a lot of it was an act to get attention. A lot of people who say they're going to kill themselves are doing just that, looking for attention. I think if you have half a brain, which Kurt had more than, it's pretty easy to do it. I mean if you're really depressed, and suicide is your only way out of it, it's not something that should take so many attempts, if you really mean to do it. I see that more as a cry for help.

IMO

youngster

left the porch wrote:

I always wondered how much he hated fame. Why would someone go into the music business, and sign a contract with DGC if they didn't want to famous? And don't say he didn't know what he was getting into, you don't sign with Geffen and not think you're at least going to be a little popular. He could have easily taken the fronted money, the first royalties from Nevermind, and fucked off to some island in the Carribean and never be seen or heard from again. I think a lot of it was an act to get attention. A lot of people who say they're going to kill themselves are doing just that, looking for attention. I think if you have half a brain, which Kurt had more than, it's pretty easy to do it. I mean if you're really depressed, and suicide is your only solution of getting out of it, it's not something that should take so many attempts. I see that more as a cry for help.

IMO

I'm sure in 1990 or 91 when he signed with Geffen his intention was to get his music out there. But in 93 when he was under pressure from the label to put out new music and play a certain number of shows on a tour, playing the same songs over and over every night, I'm sure Kurt got to a point where he didn't want a suit at a record label controlling him like a puppet. I'm sure this lead to more drug use and more thoughts about how he didn't want his music to be controlled by a major entity like DGC. It's possible that the pressure led to more drug use and the excessive drug use led to suicide.

catefrances

left the porch wrote:

catefrances wrote:

me too.
courtney says some fucked up stuff and does some stupid things(as many people do)but kill her husband???.. get real people.. it didnt happen.

Wow were you there? Pretty self assured, but the fact remains, there is questions and what I consider reasonable doubt surrounding this case. Like I said earlier, Courtney is BEYOND fucked up to the point her own daughter petitioned the court to let her go live with Kurt's family. She is a talentless, attention addict who has become nothin but a scar on the legacy of Nirvana and Kurt specifically.

I would never go as far as saying I KNOW she was involved, I THINK she was. And so do a lot of other people, including people who know her personally or have met her, like ex boyfriends before she was famous and her own father, although he dosen't seem to have much credibility, but it definitely speaks to the character of the whole 'Love' family.

Dave Grohl and Krist Novaselic both hate her guts and that speaks volumes. Maybe not that she is a muderer, but that she IS a rotten human being.

no i wasnt holding kurts hand while he blew his head off but my best friend killed herself in very similar circumstances.

ex boyfriends?? bwahaha give me a break. :roll: as for her father... i had my own father ask me one day out of the blue if i thought i was dysfunctional cause the family did. so perhaps fathers arent the best judge of their childs character. perhaps courtneys father has issues.

i dont really care if dave grohl and kris novoselic hate her guts. courtney it appears is fucked up but that doesnt make her capable of conspiracy to commit murder. are we forgetting this same man tried to kill himself in rome not long before he blew his fucking head off??? he was a devious bastard who had the intention of topping himself and managed to finally do it.

Pepe Silvia

left the porch wrote:

I always wondered how much he hated fame. Why would someone go into the music business, and sign a contract with DGC if they didn't want to be famous? And don't say he didn't know what he was getting into, you don't sign with Geffen and not think you're at least going to be a little popular. He could have easily taken the fronted money, the first royalties from Nevermind, and fucked off to some island in the Carribean and never be seen or heard from again. I think a lot of it was an act to get attention. A lot of people who say they're going to kill themselves are doing just that, looking for attention. I think if you have half a brain, which Kurt had more than, it's pretty easy to do it. I mean if you're really depressed, and suicide is your only way out of it, it's not something that should take so many attempts, if you really mean to do it. I see that more as a cry for help.

IMO

he said before he thought they would be able to be a band like sonic youth and not have a lot of involvement from the label. also, he was mad that he was supposed to have creative control over in utero and after he turned the album in the geffen had it remixed and changed the track order kurt wanted

like i said, i doubt we will ever know for sure if she was involved or not but there are things that just don't make sense. still no one has ever been able to explain how someone can buy a shot gun, fully load it (which means pumping it a lot of times), putting the barrel in their mouth and pulling the trigger all without leaving a single finger print anywhere on the gun.

also, if i were married and my wife supposedly killed herself and for a few days after she was dead someone was using her credit card i'd try to find out who was using it.

and if i spoke to her for over an hour right before she ran away from rehab i wouldn't lie about it to everyone and say i hadn't spoken to her. but hey, she was/is a junkie and as i already said they don't always think very rationally, it's just odd to lie about something like that, what's the point?

and if she's so willing to lie about small things why should anyone believe her about kurt being suicidal? isn't she the only one who says he tried to od in rome? i mean she wakes up to find him in a coma? it could be possible but given that she has no problem telling lies over small things i have a hard time holding her as a credible witness to everything, especially when they reportedly were screaming at each other the night before and he said he wanted a divorce. the pills he od'd on were pills she took.

what did his agency think about rome?

in Cobain by the editors of Rolling Stone, page 90, where a Gold Mountain employee said: "Kurt insisted it was not a suicide note. He just took all of his and Courtney's money and was going to run away and disappear."

another point is: she claims she woke up between 3-4am and found him unresponsive with blood coming from his nose (and a 'suicide' note and cash in his hand) and yet she didn't call an ambulance until 6:30????? maybe she's confused about the time but that seems very, VERY odd.

also, why did he have cash in his hand? if you are going to kill yourself why do you need the $?

and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne

left the porch

Pepe Silvia wrote:

left the porch wrote:

I always wondered how much he hated fame. Why would someone go into the music business, and sign a contract with DGC if they didn't want to be famous? And don't say he didn't know what he was getting into, you don't sign with Geffen and not think you're at least going to be a little popular. He could have easily taken the fronted money, the first royalties from Nevermind, and fucked off to some island in the Carribean and never be seen or heard from again. I think a lot of it was an act to get attention. A lot of people who say they're going to kill themselves are doing just that, looking for attention. I think if you have half a brain, which Kurt had more than, it's pretty easy to do it. I mean if you're really depressed, and suicide is your only way out of it, it's not something that should take so many attempts, if you really mean to do it. I see that more as a cry for help.

IMO

he said before he thought they would be able to be a band like sonic youth and not have a lot of involvement from the label. also, he was mad that he was supposed to have creative control over in utero and after he turned the album in the geffen had it remixed and changed the track order kurt wanted

like i said, i doubt we will ever know for sure if she was involved or not but there are things that just don't make sense. still no one has ever been able to explain how someone can buy a shot gun, fully load it (which means pumping it a lot of times), putting the barrel in their mouth and pulling the trigger all without leaving a single finger print anywhere on the gun.

also, if i were married and my wife supposedly killed herself and for a few days after she was dead someone was using her credit card i'd try to find out who was using it.

and if i spoke to her for over an hour right before she ran away from rehab i wouldn't lie about it to everyone and say i hadn't spoken to her. but hey, she was/is a junkie and as i already said they don't always think very rationally, it's just odd to lie about something like that, what's the point?

and if she's so willing to lie about small things why should anyone believe her about kurt being suicidal? isn't she the only one who says he tried to od in rome? i mean she wakes up to find him in a coma? it could be possible but given that she has no problem telling lies over small things i have a hard time holding her as a credible witness to everything, especially when they reportedly were screaming at each other the night before and he said he wanted a divorce. the pills he od'd on were pills she took.

what did his agency think about rome?

in Cobain by the editors of Rolling Stone, page 90, where a Gold Mountain employee said: "Kurt insisted it was not a suicide note. He just took all of his and Courtney's money and was going to run away and disappear."

another point is: she claims she woke up between 3-4am and found him unresponsive with blood coming from his nose (and a 'suicide' note and cash in his hand) and yet she didn't call an ambulance until 6:30????? maybe she's confused about the time but that seems very, VERY odd.

also, why did he have cash in his hand? if you are going to kill yourself why do you need the $?

and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne

I agree. She's the liar and the thief. And one day it would be nice to know what really happened. The problem is most people want to believe what they hear on the news. It was suicide because the cops and CNN or Fox news said it was. Or because it 'makes sense' because he talked about it before and was depressed. And as far a conspiracy theories go, this one does have some pretty big question marks, and the biggest one has to be, why were there no prints on a gun used in a suicide?