I think that's a pretty black and white view of something you don't really appear to know a lot about. Courtney's life has been shitty right from birth. Neither of her parents wanted her, she was sent from one boarding school to another, to relatives who didn't want her. I'm not trying to excuse her behaviour, but there is reasoning behind it - people who have fucked up childhoods usually end up having fucked up adulthoods. I suspect a natural result of constant rejection is that you end up craving attention. Yes it's ugly and unattractive to a more well-rounded person, and no I'm not saying people should feel sorry for her, so much as I think people should hold off the judgement and try to understand why she may be that way.
I don't think her reaction to Kurt's death was fake or insincere, she practically had a break down. I remember seeing Hole play at the Reading Festival in '95 and it was absolutely heart-wrenching to watch. It was clear she was in no fit state to be performing, but say what you like about Courtney, she's always been a fighter, even if she's fighting for the wrong things.
In terms of her music, I understand where you are coming from, but again you are kind of picking the convenient bits that support your argument. Billy Corgan co-wrote five of twelve songs on the record, the rest were written by the whole band, with Courtney writing all the lyrics. As a lyricist I think she is talented, and let's be fair other artists like say Elton John, who writes the music but not the lyrics, still get to keep their credibility.
I totally agree that her behaviour over the years has been shocking and at times quite offensive. I think this Hole 'reunion' she's doing, without any of the other original members, is faintly ridiculous. In terms of selling Kurt and Nirvana to the highest bidder, yeah I understand why it upsets people, but at the same time the whole Kurt as a deity thing really irks me too. I don't like to be cold, but he was a drug addict who gave up trying to sort his problems out for the sake of his child, and chose to give in.
I agree with you that he should not be idolized in any way especially if he really did commit suicide. This whole thing started with somebody else posting about wishing people would stop blaming Courtney for Kurt's Death, and I felt the need to respond. I think with the research I have done, which includes more than the doc, I've read a few books about Cobain, so this isn't just some wing ding theory. And Tom Grant is not the only one who thinks she had him killed. You claim Kurt killed himself because he was fucked up on drugs and had a shitty time growing up. Courtney was also fucked up on drugs and had a shitty childhood yet she never felt the need to put a gun in her mouth. And it's not like she's cleaned up or anything, she's still fucked up on something, the last I saw from her was a picture in SPIN where she's singing Paradise City with Slash and Duff. She's like a train wreck that just keeps getting worse.
Is it that hard to grasp the fact that a fucked up junkie who sang for a popular band, hated fame and shunned notoriety would get fucked up on H and blow his brains out? You people are trying to give Kurt WAY more credit than is due. If you read the biography "Heavier Than Heaven" by Charles Cross, Krist and Dave both said on numerous occasions Kurt saying he'd be better off dead and him trying to commit suicide. This was going to happen no matter what. The only thing Courtney can be blamed for is not being there and supporting him and trying to get him off drugs. But with Courtney as much of a junkie as Kurt, it's like the blind leading the blind.
I always wondered how much he hated fame. Why would someone go into the music business, and sign a contract with DGC if they didn't want to be famous? And don't say he didn't know what he was getting into, you don't sign with Geffen and not think you're at least going to be a little popular. He could have easily taken the fronted money, the first royalties from Nevermind, and fucked off to some island in the Carribean and never be seen or heard from again. I think a lot of it was an act to get attention. A lot of people who say they're going to kill themselves are doing just that, looking for attention. I think if you have half a brain, which Kurt had more than, it's pretty easy to do it. I mean if you're really depressed, and suicide is your only way out of it, it's not something that should take so many attempts, if you really mean to do it. I see that more as a cry for help.
I always wondered how much he hated fame. Why would someone go into the music business, and sign a contract with DGC if they didn't want to famous? And don't say he didn't know what he was getting into, you don't sign with Geffen and not think you're at least going to be a little popular. He could have easily taken the fronted money, the first royalties from Nevermind, and fucked off to some island in the Carribean and never be seen or heard from again. I think a lot of it was an act to get attention. A lot of people who say they're going to kill themselves are doing just that, looking for attention. I think if you have half a brain, which Kurt had more than, it's pretty easy to do it. I mean if you're really depressed, and suicide is your only solution of getting out of it, it's not something that should take so many attempts. I see that more as a cry for help.
IMO
I'm sure in 1990 or 91 when he signed with Geffen his intention was to get his music out there. But in 93 when he was under pressure from the label to put out new music and play a certain number of shows on a tour, playing the same songs over and over every night, I'm sure Kurt got to a point where he didn't want a suit at a record label controlling him like a puppet. I'm sure this lead to more drug use and more thoughts about how he didn't want his music to be controlled by a major entity like DGC. It's possible that the pressure led to more drug use and the excessive drug use led to suicide.
me too.
courtney says some fucked up stuff and does some stupid things(as many people do)but kill her husband???.. get real people.. it didnt happen.
Wow were you there? Pretty self assured, but the fact remains, there is questions and what I consider reasonable doubt surrounding this case. Like I said earlier, Courtney is BEYOND fucked up to the point her own daughter petitioned the court to let her go live with Kurt's family. She is a talentless, attention addict who has become nothin but a scar on the legacy of Nirvana and Kurt specifically.
I would never go as far as saying I KNOW she was involved, I THINK she was. And so do a lot of other people, including people who know her personally or have met her, like ex boyfriends before she was famous and her own father, although he dosen't seem to have much credibility, but it definitely speaks to the character of the whole 'Love' family.
Dave Grohl and Krist Novaselic both hate her guts and that speaks volumes. Maybe not that she is a muderer, but that she IS a rotten human being.
no i wasnt holding kurts hand while he blew his head off but my best friend killed herself in very similar circumstances.
ex boyfriends?? bwahaha give me a break. :roll: as for her father... i had my own father ask me one day out of the blue if i thought i was dysfunctional cause the family did. so perhaps fathers arent the best judge of their childs character. perhaps courtneys father has issues.
i dont really care if dave grohl and kris novoselic hate her guts. courtney it appears is fucked up but that doesnt make her capable of conspiracy to commit murder. are we forgetting this same man tried to kill himself in rome not long before he blew his fucking head off??? he was a devious bastard who had the intention of topping himself and managed to finally do it.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I always wondered how much he hated fame. Why would someone go into the music business, and sign a contract with DGC if they didn't want to be famous? And don't say he didn't know what he was getting into, you don't sign with Geffen and not think you're at least going to be a little popular. He could have easily taken the fronted money, the first royalties from Nevermind, and fucked off to some island in the Carribean and never be seen or heard from again. I think a lot of it was an act to get attention. A lot of people who say they're going to kill themselves are doing just that, looking for attention. I think if you have half a brain, which Kurt had more than, it's pretty easy to do it. I mean if you're really depressed, and suicide is your only way out of it, it's not something that should take so many attempts, if you really mean to do it. I see that more as a cry for help.
IMO
he said before he thought they would be able to be a band like sonic youth and not have a lot of involvement from the label. also, he was mad that he was supposed to have creative control over in utero and after he turned the album in the geffen had it remixed and changed the track order kurt wanted
like i said, i doubt we will ever know for sure if she was involved or not but there are things that just don't make sense. still no one has ever been able to explain how someone can buy a shot gun, fully load it (which means pumping it a lot of times), putting the barrel in their mouth and pulling the trigger all without leaving a single finger print anywhere on the gun.
also, if i were married and my wife supposedly killed herself and for a few days after she was dead someone was using her credit card i'd try to find out who was using it.
and if i spoke to her for over an hour right before she ran away from rehab i wouldn't lie about it to everyone and say i hadn't spoken to her. but hey, she was/is a junkie and as i already said they don't always think very rationally, it's just odd to lie about something like that, what's the point?
and if she's so willing to lie about small things why should anyone believe her about kurt being suicidal? isn't she the only one who says he tried to od in rome? i mean she wakes up to find him in a coma? it could be possible but given that she has no problem telling lies over small things i have a hard time holding her as a credible witness to everything, especially when they reportedly were screaming at each other the night before and he said he wanted a divorce. the pills he od'd on were pills she took.
what did his agency think about rome?
in Cobain by the editors of Rolling Stone, page 90, where a Gold Mountain employee said: "Kurt insisted it was not a suicide note. He just took all of his and Courtney's money and was going to run away and disappear."
another point is: she claims she woke up between 3-4am and found him unresponsive with blood coming from his nose (and a 'suicide' note and cash in his hand) and yet she didn't call an ambulance until 6:30????? maybe she's confused about the time but that seems very, VERY odd.
also, why did he have cash in his hand? if you are going to kill yourself why do you need the $?
and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I always wondered how much he hated fame. Why would someone go into the music business, and sign a contract with DGC if they didn't want to be famous? And don't say he didn't know what he was getting into, you don't sign with Geffen and not think you're at least going to be a little popular. He could have easily taken the fronted money, the first royalties from Nevermind, and fucked off to some island in the Carribean and never be seen or heard from again. I think a lot of it was an act to get attention. A lot of people who say they're going to kill themselves are doing just that, looking for attention. I think if you have half a brain, which Kurt had more than, it's pretty easy to do it. I mean if you're really depressed, and suicide is your only way out of it, it's not something that should take so many attempts, if you really mean to do it. I see that more as a cry for help.
IMO
he said before he thought they would be able to be a band like sonic youth and not have a lot of involvement from the label. also, he was mad that he was supposed to have creative control over in utero and after he turned the album in the geffen had it remixed and changed the track order kurt wanted
like i said, i doubt we will ever know for sure if she was involved or not but there are things that just don't make sense. still no one has ever been able to explain how someone can buy a shot gun, fully load it (which means pumping it a lot of times), putting the barrel in their mouth and pulling the trigger all without leaving a single finger print anywhere on the gun.
also, if i were married and my wife supposedly killed herself and for a few days after she was dead someone was using her credit card i'd try to find out who was using it.
and if i spoke to her for over an hour right before she ran away from rehab i wouldn't lie about it to everyone and say i hadn't spoken to her. but hey, she was/is a junkie and as i already said they don't always think very rationally, it's just odd to lie about something like that, what's the point?
and if she's so willing to lie about small things why should anyone believe her about kurt being suicidal? isn't she the only one who says he tried to od in rome? i mean she wakes up to find him in a coma? it could be possible but given that she has no problem telling lies over small things i have a hard time holding her as a credible witness to everything, especially when they reportedly were screaming at each other the night before and he said he wanted a divorce. the pills he od'd on were pills she took.
what did his agency think about rome?
in Cobain by the editors of Rolling Stone, page 90, where a Gold Mountain employee said: "Kurt insisted it was not a suicide note. He just took all of his and Courtney's money and was going to run away and disappear."
another point is: she claims she woke up between 3-4am and found him unresponsive with blood coming from his nose (and a 'suicide' note and cash in his hand) and yet she didn't call an ambulance until 6:30????? maybe she's confused about the time but that seems very, VERY odd.
also, why did he have cash in his hand? if you are going to kill yourself why do you need the $?
and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne
I agree. She's the liar and the thief. And one day it would be nice to know what really happened. The problem is most people want to believe what they hear on the news. It was suicide because the cops and CNN or Fox news said it was. Or because it 'makes sense' because he talked about it before and was depressed. And as far a conspiracy theories go, this one does have some pretty big question marks, and the biggest one has to be, why were there no prints on a gun used in a suicide?
Apparently there were, but they were illegible, which is not uncommon for prints on firearms:
Also not uncommon when wiping the prints off the gun. My uncle was a cop for thirty years and weve talked about this.
Look bottom line is there will always be questions and people like me who think there is more to this than meets the eye. Like any conspiracy, you have people on each side saying they "know" the truth, Kennedy's assassination, 9/11 etc. And believe me, it's not like I would be happier if I knew she killed him, it still sucks, no matter how it happened. And I'm not looking to be convinced either way, I'm not a judge, just a guy with a theory. And you're right that I don't like Courtney, I really think she's a fucking parasite, but in no way does that make her a murderer.I think she is.
Also not uncommon when wiping the prints off the gun. My uncle was a cop for thirty years and weve talked about this.
Well that's not proof is it? You said there were no prints, when in fact there were, they were just smudged, which easily could have happened as they pulled the gun from his hands. That is not evidence, it's a tenuous attempt to back up a theory that otherwise doesn't have any factual grounding.
Look bottom line is there will always be questions and people like me who think there is more to this than meets the eye. Like any conspiracy, you have people on each side saying they "know" the truth, Kennedy's assassination, 9/11 etc. And believe me, it's not like I would be happier if I knew she killed him, it still sucks, no matter how it happened. And I'm not looking to be convinced either way, I'm not a judge, just a guy with a theory. And you're right that I don't like Courtney, I really think she's a fucking parasite, but in no way does that make her a murderer.I think she is.
Yeah but based on what? That is the question you should be asking yourself. Are you someone who is easily convinced of things, even when there is no hard factual evidence? Personally I need convincing. I'm not trying to convince you either way, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is to form such a strong opinion based purely on conjecture. You have no way of substantiating the accuracy, integrity or interpretation of Tom Grant's evidence and theories, yet you are absolutely convinced. The reason I think you are convinced is because either consciously or sub-consciously, your hate for Courtney makes you want to blame her.
Finally, imagine for a moment that you are wrong and he did just plain commit suicide. How awful is it to accuse a grieving woman of playing a part in her husband's death? I don't think anyone would deserve that, no matter how she might have handled Kurt's business over the years.
...and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne
perhaps he woke up and didnt have the energy to leave his room in search of a more potent way to kill himself, so he used what was on hand??? perhaps it was just a half hearted attempt.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne
perhaps he woke up and didnt have the energy to leave his room in search of a more potent way to kill himself, so he used what was on hand??? perhaps it was just a half hearted attempt.
...and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne
perhaps he woke up and didnt have the energy to leave his room in search of a more potent way to kill himself, so he used what was on hand??? perhaps it was just a half hearted attempt.
And perhaps she tried to kill him.
perhaps she shouldve smothered him with a pillow. though that would have left signs of petechial haemorraging. and we cant have concrete evidence of foul play in a suicide can we now?? :roll:
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
They answer a lot of questions, and kind of prove my point that it's easy to put a convincing argument forward for pretty much anything.
maybe, but you'd think if you bought a shotgun recently, fully loaded it and shot it...what are the odds there are NO good prints on it? people touched it to make it, ship it, unpack it, stock it, show it, sell it, carry it, load it, use it.....and no one left a clean print anywhere on the gun?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
...and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne
perhaps he woke up and didnt have the energy to leave his room in search of a more potent way to kill himself, so he used what was on hand??? perhaps it was just a half hearted attempt.
perhaps, still doesn't explain why she claims she woke up at 3-4am and found him unresponsive with his nose bleeding and waited until 6:30 to call for help....
and how does your nose bleed from taking tranquilizers and champagne?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
maybe, but you'd think if you bought a shotgun recently, fully loaded it and shot it...what are the odds there are NO good prints on it? people touched it to make it, ship it, unpack it, stock it, show it, sell it, carry it, load it, use it.....and no one left a clean print anywhere on the gun?
Read the links I posted.
"Murder theorists want you to believe that, after someone killed Kurt, they magically saw the fingerprints and wiped off all but four of them . Most finger prints cannot be seen by the naked eye so how could anyone tell if they were legible or illegible? The most likely source of these four prints were the police had to pry the shotgun from Kurt's hands. (2) Another question, if someone placed the gun in Kurt's hands, how could they make him grip the shotgun after he died?"
"Also other factors can affect the longevity of prints or the recovery of prints. Two factors are the climate of the green house, and the gun was located between Kurt's legs for several days"
"More often than not police dust with powder, which probably destroys 50% of viable prints left on a weapon. Also "mishandling" of a weapon destroys even more prints."
"Fingerprints are made of only a trace amount of oil, 98 or 99 percent of fingerprints are composed of water. Plus amino acids, proteins, polypeptides and salts. Though prints can last up 40 years on unfinished wood, stocks of guns are usually finished."
Prints from other people may have been wiped off by the inside of the bag or case the gun was stored in.
...and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne
perhaps he woke up and didnt have the energy to leave his room in search of a more potent way to kill himself, so he used what was on hand??? perhaps it was just a half hearted attempt.
perhaps, still doesn't explain why she claims she woke up at 3-4am and found him unresponsive with his nose bleeding and waited until 6:30 to call for help....
and how does your nose bleed from taking tranquilizers and champagne?
maybe he fell off the bed in a drunken/drugged stupor and smacked it on the floor. *shrugs*
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
maybe, but you'd think if you bought a shotgun recently, fully loaded it and shot it...what are the odds there are NO good prints on it? people touched it to make it, ship it, unpack it, stock it, show it, sell it, carry it, load it, use it.....and no one left a clean print anywhere on the gun?
Read the links I posted.
"Murder theorists want you to believe that, after someone killed Kurt, they magically saw the fingerprints and wiped off all but four of them . Most finger prints cannot be seen by the naked eye so how could anyone tell if they were legible or illegible? The most likely source of these four prints were the police had to pry the shotgun from Kurt's hands. (2) Another question, if someone placed the gun in Kurt's hands, how could they make him grip the shotgun after he died?"
"Also other factors can affect the longevity of prints or the recovery of prints. Two factors are the climate of the green house, and the gun was located between Kurt's legs for several days"
"More often than not police dust with powder, which probably destroys 50% of viable prints left on a weapon. Also "mishandling" of a weapon destroys even more prints."
"Fingerprints are made of only a trace amount of oil, 98 or 99 percent of fingerprints are composed of water. Plus amino acids, proteins, polypeptides and salts. Though prints can last up 40 years on unfinished wood, stocks of guns are usually finished."
Prints from other people may have been wiped off by the inside of the bag or case the gun was stored in.
those are some good points.
although, if they thought it was a suicide from the start i wonder how thorough they were with it all.
also, i don't think it would be too difficult to put a gun in someone's hands you just shot or someone who just shot a large amount of heroin, when someone nods off you can easily place a gun in their hand and move their arm with them still out of it
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
maybe he fell off the bed in a drunken/drugged stupor and smacked it on the floor. *shrugs*
still doesn't explain why she took 2 1/2-3 1/2 hours to call for help....
let me guess, she was hoping he'd come out of it and not have to worry about the press?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
although, if they thought it was a suicide from the start i wonder how thorough they were with it all.
Hmm, one of the biggest rock stars on the planet is found dead, don't you think they would be pretty thorough with their investigation? The implication is that a lot of people didn't do their jobs properly - and the factual evidence just doesn't support it.
also, i don't think it would be too difficult to put a gun in someone's hands you just shot or someone who just shot a large amount of heroin, when someone nods off you can easily place a gun in their hand and move their arm with them still out of it
Yeah but you couldn't make them grip it once they were dead. Obviously there would have been shot marks and blood spatter on the walls corresponding to the position Kurt was (standing/sitting) in when the gun was fired. I'm not sure you can make someone stand there, no matter how high they are, place a gun in their mouth and pull the trigger without them struggling at all. Presumably the blood spatter was consistent with the typical position one would have to be in to pull the trigger themselves.
maybe he fell off the bed in a drunken/drugged stupor and smacked it on the floor. *shrugs*
still doesn't explain why she took 2 1/2-3 1/2 hours to call for help....
let me guess, she was hoping he'd come out of it and not have to worry about the press?
yes im sure the press was her first concern. :roll: perhaps she thought she could handle it cause shed done so before... but when her husband didnt respond like he had before she decided to get professional help. being a junkie herself im sure she allowed more leeway in situations such as this than a person who had never dealt with drugs or junkies. theres every chance kurt was compis enough to deter his wife from seeking help and perhaps she deferred to him in this until it got too much for them both to handle.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'm the original poster of this article. Can i say how fucking disgusted I am by a large majority of you who still blame Courtney. Yes she is not the most likeable person on Earth. But she did lose a husband and she did have an infant now with no father. I believe that if any Pearl Jam members were to see your vile replies they wouldn't want you as fans.
The "Justice for Kurt" site has audio of Courtney saying there was a second suicide note on her bedroom pillow, yet we never heard about it...press has never reported its contents??
and NOW someone has supposedly stolen the original suicide note... (coincidence)...
Then I look to his bandmates.. who seem to support the suicide theory...
Yet Ted Kennedy told the press he didn't beleive either of his brother's assasinations were plots...
Its a riddle for sure..
"This here's a REQUEST!"
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
The "Justice for Kurt" site has audio of Courtney saying there was a second suicide note on her bedroom pillow, yet we never heard about it...press has never reported its contents??
I heard about it quite a long time ago. I don't think Courtney has ever revealed the contents, so I guess there's nothing to report.
Comments
I think that's a pretty black and white view of something you don't really appear to know a lot about. Courtney's life has been shitty right from birth. Neither of her parents wanted her, she was sent from one boarding school to another, to relatives who didn't want her. I'm not trying to excuse her behaviour, but there is reasoning behind it - people who have fucked up childhoods usually end up having fucked up adulthoods. I suspect a natural result of constant rejection is that you end up craving attention. Yes it's ugly and unattractive to a more well-rounded person, and no I'm not saying people should feel sorry for her, so much as I think people should hold off the judgement and try to understand why she may be that way.
I don't think her reaction to Kurt's death was fake or insincere, she practically had a break down. I remember seeing Hole play at the Reading Festival in '95 and it was absolutely heart-wrenching to watch. It was clear she was in no fit state to be performing, but say what you like about Courtney, she's always been a fighter, even if she's fighting for the wrong things.
In terms of her music, I understand where you are coming from, but again you are kind of picking the convenient bits that support your argument. Billy Corgan co-wrote five of twelve songs on the record, the rest were written by the whole band, with Courtney writing all the lyrics. As a lyricist I think she is talented, and let's be fair other artists like say Elton John, who writes the music but not the lyrics, still get to keep their credibility.
I totally agree that her behaviour over the years has been shocking and at times quite offensive. I think this Hole 'reunion' she's doing, without any of the other original members, is faintly ridiculous. In terms of selling Kurt and Nirvana to the highest bidder, yeah I understand why it upsets people, but at the same time the whole Kurt as a deity thing really irks me too. I don't like to be cold, but he was a drug addict who gave up trying to sort his problems out for the sake of his child, and chose to give in.
Yeah not knowingly though. And you're missing the point I'm making, which is that Kurt wasn't some saint.
Two words. Poor. Frances.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
IMO
I'm sure in 1990 or 91 when he signed with Geffen his intention was to get his music out there. But in 93 when he was under pressure from the label to put out new music and play a certain number of shows on a tour, playing the same songs over and over every night, I'm sure Kurt got to a point where he didn't want a suit at a record label controlling him like a puppet. I'm sure this lead to more drug use and more thoughts about how he didn't want his music to be controlled by a major entity like DGC. It's possible that the pressure led to more drug use and the excessive drug use led to suicide.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
no i wasnt holding kurts hand while he blew his head off but my best friend killed herself in very similar circumstances.
ex boyfriends?? bwahaha give me a break. :roll: as for her father... i had my own father ask me one day out of the blue if i thought i was dysfunctional cause the family did. so perhaps fathers arent the best judge of their childs character. perhaps courtneys father has issues.
i dont really care if dave grohl and kris novoselic hate her guts. courtney it appears is fucked up but that doesnt make her capable of conspiracy to commit murder. are we forgetting this same man tried to kill himself in rome not long before he blew his fucking head off??? he was a devious bastard who had the intention of topping himself and managed to finally do it.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
he said before he thought they would be able to be a band like sonic youth and not have a lot of involvement from the label. also, he was mad that he was supposed to have creative control over in utero and after he turned the album in the geffen had it remixed and changed the track order kurt wanted
like i said, i doubt we will ever know for sure if she was involved or not but there are things that just don't make sense. still no one has ever been able to explain how someone can buy a shot gun, fully load it (which means pumping it a lot of times), putting the barrel in their mouth and pulling the trigger all without leaving a single finger print anywhere on the gun.
also, if i were married and my wife supposedly killed herself and for a few days after she was dead someone was using her credit card i'd try to find out who was using it.
and if i spoke to her for over an hour right before she ran away from rehab i wouldn't lie about it to everyone and say i hadn't spoken to her. but hey, she was/is a junkie and as i already said they don't always think very rationally, it's just odd to lie about something like that, what's the point?
and if she's so willing to lie about small things why should anyone believe her about kurt being suicidal? isn't she the only one who says he tried to od in rome? i mean she wakes up to find him in a coma? it could be possible but given that she has no problem telling lies over small things i have a hard time holding her as a credible witness to everything, especially when they reportedly were screaming at each other the night before and he said he wanted a divorce. the pills he od'd on were pills she took.
what did his agency think about rome?
in Cobain by the editors of Rolling Stone, page 90, where a Gold Mountain employee said: "Kurt insisted it was not a suicide note. He just took all of his and Courtney's money and was going to run away and disappear."
another point is: she claims she woke up between 3-4am and found him unresponsive with blood coming from his nose (and a 'suicide' note and cash in his hand) and yet she didn't call an ambulance until 6:30????? maybe she's confused about the time but that seems very, VERY odd.
also, why did he have cash in his hand? if you are going to kill yourself why do you need the $?
and let's not forget in rome he supposedly tried to kill himself with the date rape drug, which was courtneys and even reported a few days before that she used them frequently, and champagne
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I agree. She's the liar and the thief. And one day it would be nice to know what really happened. The problem is most people want to believe what they hear on the news. It was suicide because the cops and CNN or Fox news said it was. Or because it 'makes sense' because he talked about it before and was depressed. And as far a conspiracy theories go, this one does have some pretty big question marks, and the biggest one has to be, why were there no prints on a gun used in a suicide?
read this
Apparently there were, but they were illegible, which is not uncommon for prints on firearms:
http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investiga ... ints.shtml
In fact read all the links on this page:
http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investiga ... ndex.shtml
They answer a lot of questions, and kind of prove my point that it's easy to put a convincing argument forward for pretty much anything.
Also not uncommon when wiping the prints off the gun. My uncle was a cop for thirty years and weve talked about this.
Look bottom line is there will always be questions and people like me who think there is more to this than meets the eye. Like any conspiracy, you have people on each side saying they "know" the truth, Kennedy's assassination, 9/11 etc. And believe me, it's not like I would be happier if I knew she killed him, it still sucks, no matter how it happened. And I'm not looking to be convinced either way, I'm not a judge, just a guy with a theory. And you're right that I don't like Courtney, I really think she's a fucking parasite, but in no way does that make her a murderer.I think she is.
Well that's not proof is it? You said there were no prints, when in fact there were, they were just smudged, which easily could have happened as they pulled the gun from his hands. That is not evidence, it's a tenuous attempt to back up a theory that otherwise doesn't have any factual grounding.
Yeah but based on what? That is the question you should be asking yourself. Are you someone who is easily convinced of things, even when there is no hard factual evidence? Personally I need convincing. I'm not trying to convince you either way, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is to form such a strong opinion based purely on conjecture. You have no way of substantiating the accuracy, integrity or interpretation of Tom Grant's evidence and theories, yet you are absolutely convinced. The reason I think you are convinced is because either consciously or sub-consciously, your hate for Courtney makes you want to blame her.
Finally, imagine for a moment that you are wrong and he did just plain commit suicide. How awful is it to accuse a grieving woman of playing a part in her husband's death? I don't think anyone would deserve that, no matter how she might have handled Kurt's business over the years.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
perhaps he woke up and didnt have the energy to leave his room in search of a more potent way to kill himself, so he used what was on hand??? perhaps it was just a half hearted attempt.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
And perhaps she tried to kill him.
perhaps she shouldve smothered him with a pillow. though that would have left signs of petechial haemorraging. and we cant have concrete evidence of foul play in a suicide can we now?? :roll:
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
maybe, but you'd think if you bought a shotgun recently, fully loaded it and shot it...what are the odds there are NO good prints on it? people touched it to make it, ship it, unpack it, stock it, show it, sell it, carry it, load it, use it.....and no one left a clean print anywhere on the gun?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
perhaps, still doesn't explain why she claims she woke up at 3-4am and found him unresponsive with his nose bleeding and waited until 6:30 to call for help....
and how does your nose bleed from taking tranquilizers and champagne?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Read the links I posted.
"Murder theorists want you to believe that, after someone killed Kurt, they magically saw the fingerprints and wiped off all but four of them . Most finger prints cannot be seen by the naked eye so how could anyone tell if they were legible or illegible? The most likely source of these four prints were the police had to pry the shotgun from Kurt's hands. (2) Another question, if someone placed the gun in Kurt's hands, how could they make him grip the shotgun after he died?"
"Also other factors can affect the longevity of prints or the recovery of prints. Two factors are the climate of the green house, and the gun was located between Kurt's legs for several days"
"More often than not police dust with powder, which probably destroys 50% of viable prints left on a weapon. Also "mishandling" of a weapon destroys even more prints."
"Fingerprints are made of only a trace amount of oil, 98 or 99 percent of fingerprints are composed of water. Plus amino acids, proteins, polypeptides and salts. Though prints can last up 40 years on unfinished wood, stocks of guns are usually finished."
Prints from other people may have been wiped off by the inside of the bag or case the gun was stored in.
maybe he fell off the bed in a drunken/drugged stupor and smacked it on the floor. *shrugs*
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
those are some good points.
although, if they thought it was a suicide from the start i wonder how thorough they were with it all.
also, i don't think it would be too difficult to put a gun in someone's hands you just shot or someone who just shot a large amount of heroin, when someone nods off you can easily place a gun in their hand and move their arm with them still out of it
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
still doesn't explain why she took 2 1/2-3 1/2 hours to call for help....
let me guess, she was hoping he'd come out of it and not have to worry about the press?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Hmm, one of the biggest rock stars on the planet is found dead, don't you think they would be pretty thorough with their investigation? The implication is that a lot of people didn't do their jobs properly - and the factual evidence just doesn't support it.
Yeah but you couldn't make them grip it once they were dead. Obviously there would have been shot marks and blood spatter on the walls corresponding to the position Kurt was (standing/sitting) in when the gun was fired. I'm not sure you can make someone stand there, no matter how high they are, place a gun in their mouth and pull the trigger without them struggling at all. Presumably the blood spatter was consistent with the typical position one would have to be in to pull the trigger themselves.
yes im sure the press was her first concern. :roll: perhaps she thought she could handle it cause shed done so before... but when her husband didnt respond like he had before she decided to get professional help. being a junkie herself im sure she allowed more leeway in situations such as this than a person who had never dealt with drugs or junkies. theres every chance kurt was compis enough to deter his wife from seeking help and perhaps she deferred to him in this until it got too much for them both to handle.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The "Justice for Kurt" site has audio of Courtney saying there was a second suicide note on her bedroom pillow, yet we never heard about it...press has never reported its contents??
and NOW someone has supposedly stolen the original suicide note... (coincidence)...
Then I look to his bandmates.. who seem to support the suicide theory...
Yet Ted Kennedy told the press he didn't beleive either of his brother's assasinations were plots...
Its a riddle for sure..
EV intro to Chloe Dancer / Crown of Thorns
10/25/13 Hartford
I heard about it quite a long time ago. I don't think Courtney has ever revealed the contents, so I guess there's nothing to report.
Looking at the crazy life Courtney Love leads and the amount of hangers-on that she seems to attract, nothing would surprise me.
Funny that... obviously they're less intelligent than the people who've spent an hour reading a website and come to a foregone conclusion