The whole premise that banning guns is good, is probably the most idiotic argument one could make. Sure we'd all love to live in a utopian environment, where everyone gets along and we can sleep at night with our doors unlocked. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Is this the wild west? No. But when someone who thinks it still is visits your home late one night, it's a good idea to be on a level playing field, because trying to coax them out of hurting you probably isn't going to work.
I tend to take this issue a bit personally. Back on Wednesday, Oct. 16th, 1991 at a Luby's cafeteria in the town I grew up in. It was "Boss's Day", and my dad was there along with some other family and many friends we all knew. A man named George Hennard drove his pickup truck right through the plate glass picture window into the lobby of the restaurant. He got out of his pickup with a couple of hand guns at the ready, and began methodically shooting people. My teacher's wife had hid under the table beneath the long table skirt, but Mr. Hennard saw her movement, and he briskly walked over to the table, lifted the table cloth and shot her in the head. He moved quickly, but seemed to thoroughly enjoy stalking the people in there. He would unload a magazine and quickly reload.
Dr. Suzanna Gratia was definitely one of the people within the restaurant that day that could have stopped this man, had she been allowed to carry her firearm on her person. Having known her, she would not have thought one second about dropping Hennard, and she definitely could have done it. Obeying the law however, she left her gun outside in her vehicle. Seeing how desperate the situation was, her dad Al, rushed Hennard but was shot and killed. Later as Hennard swept by again, he also shot and killed her mother Ursula.
Finally a big ol' boy named Tommy Vaughn charged the plate glass window in the back of the restaurant and busted right through it. He was cut up pretty bad, but it did allow my family and a lot of our other friends to escape.
The point is, you're never going to be able to do enough to keep guns away from people like George Hennard. And when you keep law-abiding citizens, who are properly trained on how to carry and fire their weapon, from carrying, then they lose their ability to protect themselves when up against an overwhelming opposing force.
i dont see the song as being about banning guns as much as it is mocking the macho christian right wing assholes like those morons who bring their loaded firearms to places Obama is speaking. I have met plety of rednecks to which this song applies perfectly. In my opinion it is clearly a dig at the attitute of gun enthusiests rather than a song about banning guns.
Agreed. I am a gun owner that likes the idea of gun control (not sure how it would work) because I live in part of the world where every dumb hick has an arsenal and frankly, those majority of those morons can't be trusted with guns. I, on the other hand, am perfectly sane and reasonable. So, in conclusion, I can and will own as many guns as I like, but I'd prefer it if the rest of you disarmed.
Everyone cool with that?
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The whole premise that banning guns is good, is probably the most idiotic argument one could make. Sure we'd all love to live in a utopian environment, where everyone gets along and we can sleep at night with our doors unlocked. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Is this the wild west? No. But when someone who thinks it still is visits your home late one night, it's a good idea to be on a level playing field, because trying to coax them out of hurting you probably isn't going to work.
I tend to take this issue a bit personally. Back on Wednesday, Oct. 16th, 1991 at a Luby's cafeteria in the town I grew up in. It was "Boss's Day", and my dad was there along with some other family and many friends we all knew. A man named George Hennard drove his pickup truck right through the plate glass picture window into the lobby of the restaurant. He got out of his pickup with a couple of hand guns at the ready, and began methodically shooting people. My teacher's wife had hid under the table beneath the long table skirt, but Mr. Hennard saw her movement, and he briskly walked over to the table, lifted the table cloth and shot her in the head. He moved quickly, but seemed to thoroughly enjoy stalking the people in there. He would unload a magazine and quickly reload.
Dr. Suzanna Gratia was definitely one of the people within the restaurant that day that could have stopped this man, had she been allowed to carry her firearm on her person. Having known her, she would not have thought one second about dropping Hennard, and she definitely could have done it. Obeying the law however, she left her gun outside in her vehicle. Seeing how desperate the situation was, her dad Al, rushed Hennard but was shot and killed. Later as Hennard swept by again, he also shot and killed her mother Ursula.
Finally a big ol' boy named Tommy Vaughn charged the plate glass window in the back of the restaurant and busted right through it. He was cut up pretty bad, but it did allow my family and a lot of our other friends to escape.
The point is, you're never going to be able to do enough to keep guns away from people like George Hennard. And when you keep law-abiding citizens, who are properly trained on how to carry and fire their weapon, from carrying, then they lose their ability to protect themselves when up against an overwhelming opposing force.
Wow. Thank you for posting that. I'm sure that was a traumatic event for all involved... and to think of the potential that it could, reasonably have been prevented at the onset.
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
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i dont see the song as being about banning guns as much as it is mocking the macho christian right wing assholes like those morons who bring their loaded firearms to places Obama is speaking. I have met plety of rednecks to which this song applies perfectly. In my opinion it is clearly a dig at the attitute of gun enthusiests rather than a song about banning guns.
Agreed. I am a gun owner that likes the idea of gun control (not sure how it would work) because I live in part of the world where every dumb hick has an arsenal and frankly, those majority of those morons can't be trusted with guns. I, on the other hand, am perfectly sane and reasonable. So, in conclusion, I can and will own as many guns as I like, but I'd prefer it if the rest of you disarmed.
Everyone cool with that?
WTF!!!!!!! Yeah , I'm cool with that. You just stay on YOUR side of the country , MMMMKKKK?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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if you ban guns, the crooks will still get their hands on 'em. don't take away from the innocent who want to protect what's theirs.
edit: innocent & responsible.
Protect what's theirs? Is this the wild west? The whole if you ban guns only criminals will have them is a false premise.
THis thread will be move over to A moving train in 5...4...3...2...1...
If you make all guns illegal, only those who abide by the law will bring their guns in.
...thus, only outlaws will have guns. It's pretty simple math.
Someone I know had their house broken into and 4 teenagers killed the mother and left the child to die, which actually lived. So to say legal guns would not protect lives is wacked. legal gun owners have rights to protect their lives first and foremost.
In my lifetime, I have conquered the Multiverse by force of trUth.
First of all I know this is probably not the right place for a discussion of gun rights..but...since it has become that;
I'll say that I agree with Ed 100% and I'll tell you a few of the reasons why I feel this way, and why I personally believe that having a gun in my home would do more harm than good.
OK Now PLEASE let me finish before you start bashing, it's only fair.
First, though, let me ask this:
* If guns are available to criminals, why does that mean you have to have one too? Stolen property, heroin, pornography, explosives, RPGs, even Nuclear Weapons are also available to criminals...do you want them as well?
So, if you doneed one, or more, think about these things:
* If a criminal comes at you in your home with a gun, ARE YOU...
- going to be able to find your cabinet/trigger lock key, remove "your" gun from your legally locked cabinet or remove your conscientious child-proof trigger lock..AND THEN...in ANOTHER location... find your ammunition..load the gun, disable the safety, and shoot the bad dude before he puts 12 rounds into you, all in the midst of mind-numbing fear or anger?
- going to be able to keep a criminal from taking your gun and using it against you and your family?
- truly capable of killing another individual?
- as desperate and as experienced as the common thug on the street in handling a gun?
- prepared to accidentally shoot your wife, your child, your dog, amidst the chaos?
For those of you who would prefer to keep your weapon(s) ready and loaded in your nightstand, your dresser drawer, top shelf of your bedroom closet, under your mattress....PLEASE realize that NO MATTER how much you teach your children and how well you believe they understand, ALL CHILDREN, YES ~ EVEN YOURS!....ARE CURIOUS and WILL at some point, unknown to even you, locate that well-hidden gun, perhaps just to show to a friend, or just to see what it feels like in their hand, or just innocently, to have a quick look....and should there be an accident...will YOU be able to live with YOURSELF...or will that protection take your own life as well as your child's in the end? PLEASE...THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS!
FINALLY - for those of you who believe you need a gun for protection against our government, rogue law enforcement, militias, terrorists, etc....do you really think you are going to outdo fanatics who most likely have trained daily and religiously for years if not a lifetime just so they WILL have the ability to take you and yours by surprise and do away with you before you even have any freakin idea of what's happening around you...and if you do believe that they're coming for you, do you think they're coming alone? What will your little hidden away protection do for you then?
Besides Glorified G, the lyrics to this sad, sad commentary come to mind:
Even the Most Avid Enthusiasts cannot deny that this is what our society's answer to nearly every problem is:
Smile Empty Soul ~ "This Is War"
I'm just a normal man
I wouldn't hurt nothing at all
But here we are
Our leaders have a plan
I'd only kill if it's for them
Now here we are
I drove in a car and flew in a plane
To come to your house and kick your door in
Now it's down to this, it's just you and me
I'll blow your fucking head off for my country
I go to church and tithe
I go to work in a suit and tie
But this is war
I'm really not sure why
But the TV says that you are wrong
Now here we are
My feet hurt from the sand
But still i march on gun in hand
Cause this is war
This isn't what i planned
I wanted to be so much more
But this is war
I drove in a car and flew in a plane
To come to your house and kick your door in
Now it's down to this, it's just you and me
I'll blow your fucking head off for my country
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know about all of you, but this says it all for me.....things HAVE to change!
That's my two cents...
OK bump this off to somewhere else! It's SICKENING!
-
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
First of all I know this is probably not the right place for a discussion of gun rights..but...since it has become that;
I'll say that I agree with Ed 100% and I'll tell you a few of the reasons why I feel this way, and why I personally believe that having a gun in my home would do more harm than good.
OK Now PLEASE let me finish before you start bashing, it's only fair.
First, though, let me ask this:
* If guns are available to criminals, why does that mean you have to have one too? Stolen property, heroin, pornography, explosives, RPGs, even Nuclear Weapons are also available to criminals...do you want them as well?
So, if you doneed one, or more, think about these things:
* If a criminal comes at you in your home with a gun, ARE YOU...
- going to be able to find your cabinet/trigger lock key, remove "your" gun from your legally locked cabinet or remove your conscientious child-proof trigger lock..AND THEN...in ANOTHER location... find your ammunition..load the gun, disable the safety, and shoot the bad dude before he puts 12 rounds into you, all in the midst of mind-numbing fear or anger?
- going to be able to keep a criminal from taking your gun and using it against you and your family?
- truly capable of killing another individual?
- as desperate and as experienced as the common thug on the street in handling a gun?
- prepared to accidentally shoot your wife, your child, your dog, amidst the chaos?
My wife is next to me unless I shot backwards she will be fine. I don't have any kids and if my dog gets hit well thats fine.
For those of you who would prefer to keep your weapon(s) ready and loaded in your nightstand, your dresser drawer, top shelf of your bedroom closet, under your mattress....PLEASE realize that NO MATTER how much you teach your children and how well you believe they understand, ALL CHILDREN, YES ~ EVEN YOURS!....ARE CURIOUS and WILL at some point, unknown to even you, locate that well-hidden gun, perhaps just to show to a friend, or just to see what it feels like in their hand, or just innocently, to have a quick look....and should there be an accident...will YOU be able to live with YOURSELF...or will that protection take your own life as well as your child's in the end? PLEASE...THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS!
FINALLY - for those of you who believe you need a gun for protection against our government, rogue law enforcement, militias, terrorists, etc....do you really think you are going to outdo fanatics who most likely have trained daily and religiously for years if not a lifetime just so they WILL have the ability to take you and yours by surprise and do away with you before you even have any freakin idea of what's happening around you...and if you do believe that they're coming for you, do you think they're coming alone? What will your little hidden away protection do for you then?
Here is my response
Point 1:
Everybody believes in arms control..for me I think people should be allowed to conceal and carry in any state and the current ban on automatic weapons is probably good. Also most criminals don't own RPGs, explosives, and Nuclear Weapons. I would argue that heroin shouldn't even been illegal and porn is already legal. Perhaps if the owners had guns the criminals wouldn't have any stolen property to begin with.
Point 2 and 3:
I plan on keeping my gun loaded under my bed ( I say plan because right now its in a bunch of pieces waiting to be built). I also plan on buying 2 handguns they will be loaded in my wifes and mine night tables drawers. When I am not home all the guns and ammo will be locked up. I also have no kids and don't plan 2 so its not a concern for me.
- going to be able to keep a criminal from taking your gun and using it against you and your family?
yes I know where they are and will be able to get to them before the criminal since they need to get into my room to get at them
- truly capable of killing another individual?
yes
- as desperate and as experienced as the common thug on the street in handling a gun?
I am building my gun so that kinda makes me more experienced plus we goto the range every few weeks...most gun owners all the basics for the weapons. Nothing is a desperate as protecting yourself and love ones.
- prepared to accidentally shoot your wife, your child, your dog, amidst the chaos?
My wife is next to me unless I shot backwards she will be fine. I don't have any kids and if my dog gets hit well thats fine.
Point 4:
Do think I would stand alone and if the government comes after me I have protection and if the government doesn't come after what have I lost? Also its protection against foreign invasion. In Switzerland every person gets to keep their gun so they can raise an army in a matter of hours.
First of all I know this is probably not the right place for a discussion of gun rights..but...since it has become that;
I'll say that I agree with Ed 100% and I'll tell you a few of the reasons why I feel this way, and why I personally believe that having a gun in my home would do more harm than good.........................
Here is my response
Point 1:
Everybody believes in arms control..for me I think people should be allowed to conceal and carry in any state and the current ban on automatic weapons is probably good. Also most criminals don't own RPGs, explosives, and Nuclear Weapons. I would argue that heroin shouldn't even been illegal and porn is already legal. Perhaps if the owners had guns the criminals wouldn't have any stolen property to begin with.
Point 2 and 3:
I plan on keeping my gun loaded under my bed ( I say plan because right now its in a bunch of pieces waiting to be built). I also plan on buying 2 handguns they will be loaded in my wifes and mine night tables drawers. When I am not home all the guns and ammo will be locked up. I also have no kids and don't plan 2 so its not a concern for me.
- going to be able to keep a criminal from taking your gun and using it against you and your family?
yes I know where they are and will be able to get to them before the criminal since they need to get into my room to get at them
- truly capable of killing another individual?
yes
- as desperate and as experienced as the common thug on the street in handling a gun?
I am building my gun so that kinda makes me more experienced plus we goto the range every few weeks...most gun owners all the basics for the weapons. Nothing is a desperate as protecting yourself and love ones.
- prepared to accidentally shoot your wife, your child, your dog, amidst the chaos?
My wife is next to me unless I shot backwards she will be fine. I don't have any kids and if my dog gets hit well thats fine.
Point 4:
Do think I would stand alone and if the government comes after me I have protection and if the government doesn't come after what have I lost? Also its protection against foreign invasion. In Switzerland every person gets to keep their gun so they can raise an army in a matter of hours.
I guess all I have to say to that is: "If my dog gets hit well thats fine"???????
That pretty much tells me all I need to know, thank you very much.
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
It should tell you that I am willing to make a tough decision to protect my wife and I. What you do if you had to choose between your family and your dog?
I would never internally hurt my dog. In fact my gun is so accurate that I would hope to neutralize the enemy(s) without missing a single shot. Since I am using a rifle with an optical as my first line of defense there is no reason to miss. The less accurate and harder to aim handguns are only if shit really hits the fan. To be honest my biggest concern is missing the enemy and having a bullet go through a wall and hit somebody in another unit next my mine ( i live in a conner townhouse so 2 walls touch other units). Though I would either have to shoot into the wall right behind me or directly to the right so I have determined the chance of that happening to be close to 0%.
Also what are you going to do when the zombies invade?
It should tell you that I am willing to make a tough decision to protect my wife and I. What you do if you had to choose between your family and your dog?
I would never internally hurt my dog. In fact my gun is so accurate that I would hope to neutralize the enemy(s) without missing a single shot. Since I am using a rifle with an optical as my first line of defense there is no reason to miss. The less accurate and harder to aim handguns are only if shit really hits the fan. To be honest my biggest concern is missing the enemy and having a bullet go through a wall and hit somebody in another unit next my mine ( i live in a conner townhouse so 2 walls touch other units). Though I would either have to shoot into the wall right behind me or directly to the right so I have determined the chance of that happening to be close to 0%.
Also what are you going to do when the zombies invade?
I'm gonna bake 'em a pie
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
The whole premise that banning guns is good, is probably the most idiotic argument one could make. Sure we'd all love to live in a utopian environment, where everyone gets along and we can sleep at night with our doors unlocked. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Is this the wild west? No. But when someone who thinks it still is visits your home late one night, it's a good idea to be on a level playing field, because trying to coax them out of hurting you probably isn't going to work.
America sure is screwed up. Here in Australia, my parents actually leave the back house door OPEN 24/7. They only lock the front door at about 10pm at night through to morning. And in the 20-odd years of living there they have never had a single item stolen.
Look at these stats (for 2008):
America
Population: 303,824,640
Robberies Total: 441,855
Robberies w/ firearms: 43.5% (0.1454% of population)
Murders w/ firearms: 9,369 (3.08e-5 % of population)
Australia
Population: 21,007,310
Robberies Total: 16,500
Robberies w/ firearms: 6% (0.0785% of population) (half the american count)
Murders w/ firearms: 59 (2.80e-6 % of population) (less than a tenth of the american count)
How can you possibly say being able to freely carry firearms around doesn't increase the crime rate (not to mention murders and other things)?
And you can't compare knifes to guns. Guns give you the ability to kill people very easily and quickly. Killing someone with a knife is much harder. If a guy runs into a shopping center with a knife and starts killing people, and a guy runs into a shopping center with a gun, I know who my money is on to kill more.
First of all I know this is probably not the right place for a discussion of gun rights..but...since it has become that;
I'll say that I agree with Ed 100% and I'll tell you a few of the reasons why I feel this way, and why I personally believe that having a gun in my home would do more harm than good.
OK Now PLEASE let me finish before you start bashing, it's only fair.
First, though, let me ask this:
* If guns are available to criminals, why does that mean you have to have one too? Stolen property, heroin, pornography, explosives, RPGs, even Nuclear Weapons are also available to criminals...do you want them as well?
So, if you doneed one, or more, think about these things:
* If a criminal comes at you in your home with a gun, ARE YOU...
- going to be able to find your cabinet/trigger lock key, remove "your" gun from your legally locked cabinet or remove your conscientious child-proof trigger lock..AND THEN...in ANOTHER location... find your ammunition..load the gun, disable the safety, and shoot the bad dude before he puts 12 rounds into you, all in the midst of mind-numbing fear or anger?
- going to be able to keep a criminal from taking your gun and using it against you and your family?
- truly capable of killing another individual?
- as desperate and as experienced as the common thug on the street in handling a gun?
- prepared to accidentally shoot your wife, your child, your dog, amidst the chaos?
For those of you who would prefer to keep your weapon(s) ready and loaded in your nightstand, your dresser drawer, top shelf of your bedroom closet, under your mattress....PLEASE realize that NO MATTER how much you teach your children and how well you believe they understand, ALL CHILDREN, YES ~ EVEN YOURS!....ARE CURIOUS and WILL at some point, unknown to even you, locate that well-hidden gun, perhaps just to show to a friend, or just to see what it feels like in their hand, or just innocently, to have a quick look....and should there be an accident...will YOU be able to live with YOURSELF...or will that protection take your own life as well as your child's in the end? PLEASE...THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS!
FINALLY - for those of you who believe you need a gun for protection against our government, rogue law enforcement, militias, terrorists, etc....do you really think you are going to outdo fanatics who most likely have trained daily and religiously for years if not a lifetime just so they WILL have the ability to take you and yours by surprise and do away with you before you even have any freakin idea of what's happening around you...and if you do believe that they're coming for you, do you think they're coming alone? What will your little hidden away protection do for you then?
Besides Glorified G, the lyrics to this sad, sad commentary come to mind:
Even the Most Avid Enthusiasts cannot deny that this is what our society's answer to nearly every problem is:
Smile Empty Soul ~ "This Is War"
I'm just a normal man
I wouldn't hurt nothing at all
But here we are
Our leaders have a plan
I'd only kill if it's for them
Now here we are
I drove in a car and flew in a plane
To come to your house and kick your door in
Now it's down to this, it's just you and me
I'll blow your fucking head off for my country
I go to church and tithe
I go to work in a suit and tie
But this is war
I'm really not sure why
But the TV says that you are wrong
Now here we are
My feet hurt from the sand
But still i march on gun in hand
Cause this is war
This isn't what i planned
I wanted to be so much more
But this is war
I drove in a car and flew in a plane
To come to your house and kick your door in
Now it's down to this, it's just you and me
I'll blow your fucking head off for my country
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know about all of you, but this says it all for me.....things HAVE to change!
That's my two cents...
OK bump this off to somewhere else! It's SICKENING!
-
Above is truely the most illogical post ever. How are you even debating at this point anyway? Have you not read the previous posts? Did you not read the one about the guy's family and friends in Luby's?
Look its real, real simple. If someone intends to kill you, yes you want to have a gun or have someone around that does to kill them first. Will you be capable in that moment: yes. Are you prepared to accidentally hit what you are not aiming at, to protect your family from who is INTENTIONALLY aiming at them?: of course. Should you plan when you have young children?: yes, here's an idea - have a clip loaded weapon and put the gun and clip in differnt places that are easily accessable to you, but not to them. Can you have your weapon ready to use in time?: very likely - read one of my previous posts. Can you prevent them from taking your weapon: most likely, a gun is different from a knife in that it can be used from a distance :roll:
Yes, accidents happen, yes its sad, but we can't deny the rights of people to protect themselves and their families to prevent rare accidents. Sometimes people do stupid things, sometimes parents do stupid things, sometimes it darwinism, sometimes its bad luck. Its sad sometimes, but we learn lessons from these types of things. I know a bleeding heart can't understand this, but its reality.
Finally, in the most desparate of times, will regular people with guns be able to fend of a militia?: Possibly, but one thing is for certain, people will band together and try - and that in itself is enough to protect us from most potential enemies.
The worst thing we could do is say, "well there is a chance bad things could happen to the good folks, so lets just have them be defenseless against those who INTEND to harm them" Doesn't even make sense.
You guys sure read an awful lot of stuff that qualifies as the stupidest (??? is that even a word??) anyway...the stupidest post you've ever seen....just sayin'
Nighty night sleep tight...keep your guns by your side ... NOT by mine!
Post edited by StillHere on
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
How??? because its a different group of people, my brother from down under. In this country, we have real ghettos, real gang bangers who usually get their guns illegally. We have domestic disputes in which murder is planned and would be carried out no matter what weapon is used. We have desparate people that will commit robberies, because they feel they need something that bad. I'm sorry for how this sounds, but the truth is we have a lot more bad people in this country and a lot more people in general.
And this is a moot point anyway because if law abiding citizens don't have guns in this country, criminals still will. Its just a fact. By the way, only locking your doors at night and when you're not home is the common practice in most neighborhoods here too.
You guys sure read an awful lot of stuff that qualifies as the stupidest (??? is that even a word??) anyway...the stupidest post you've ever seen....just sayin'
Nighty night sleep tight...keep your guns by your side ... NOT by mine!
Nice concession When defeated by logic, run for the hills
The whole premise that banning guns is good, is probably the most idiotic argument one could make. Sure we'd all love to live in a utopian environment, where everyone gets along and we can sleep at night with our doors unlocked. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Is this the wild west? No. But when someone who thinks it still is visits your home late one night, it's a good idea to be on a level playing field, because trying to coax them out of hurting you probably isn't going to work.
America sure is screwed up. Here in Australia, my parents actually leave the back house door OPEN 24/7. They only lock the front door at about 10pm at night through to morning. And in the 20-odd years of living there they have never had a single item stolen.
Look at these stats (for 2008):
America
Population: 303,824,640
Robberies Total: 441,855
Robberies w/ firearms: 43.5% (0.1454% of population)
Murders w/ firearms: 9,369 (3.08e-5 % of population)
Australia
Population: 21,007,310
Robberies Total: 16,500
Robberies w/ firearms: 6% (0.0785% of population) (half the american count)
Murders w/ firearms: 59 (2.80e-6 % of population) (less than a tenth of the american count)
How can you possibly say being able to freely carry firearms around doesn't increase the crime rate (not to mention murders and other things)?
And you can't compare knifes to guns. Guns give you the ability to kill people very easily and quickly. Killing someone with a knife is much harder. If a guy runs into a shopping center with a knife and starts killing people, and a guy runs into a shopping center with a gun, I know who my money is on to kill more.
We agree that Switzerland has a very high gun count per capita look at the crime states even compared to Australia. I believe this proves the point legal gun owners have nothing to do with crime rates or that legal gun owners play a role in decreasing crime. Either way it doesn't fair well for the anti-gun argument. With approx 1/2 the murders and robberies per 100,000 people when compared with Australia it should be clear your argument is flawed.
Glorified G is about guns? It ain't "45 virgins and a pelican?"
In the future, 50-100 years from now, will we have museums that reenact gangsta rapper shootouts / school shooting massacres / and other gun related crimes of the late 20th/early 21st century, the way we now do with the Wild West? "See Biggie shot, 12pm, 1pm, 3pm, last showing 4:30!! Great fun for the kids!!"
Guns are a problem in society, they serve no useful purpose whatsoever, but now they are here we have to live with them.
Take south africa for example, I know many folk there carry guns as muggings are common place, so its all about self defence? does that make it right? No but does it make it necessary? absolutely.
Would anyone ever want to use a gun against another person? No, do they sometimes have to? Yes, thats sad, and its an indictment of todays society.
So guns have no purpose at all, they are hiedously dangerous, unnecessary, and a cause of senseless misery every day. But they are in the world, so we have to live with that. so to ban them would be idiotic.
It's kind of extraordinary how the logic works on this issue. Where I'm from, the thinking is less guns, less shootings, and - even though there's a fair amount of gangland crime (& let's not forget a whole history of civil strife) - it pretty much works that way. In America, gun crime makes people want to get more guns. To me, that is instantly counter-intuitive, and the evidence certainly seems to bear this out. The US has looser gun laws than just about any developed country, and not-uncoincidentally, by leaps and bounds the highest gun crime rate of any developed country.
In America, a mass shooting incident like Columbine or Virginia Tech makes many people (not everybody, I know) make the leap to saying "we need more guns to protect ourselves". And the shootings just keep on happening (and I would bet a lot of money that there are vastly more murders committed by privately owned guns, as opposed to criminally-owned guns, than a lot of gun advocate would be comforatble to admit.)
By contrast, in Europe - taking the Dunblane massacre in Scotland as an example - a mass shooting incident led to calls for much stricter gun controls (not a blanket ban, mind you). People's reaction was to get rid of their guns en masse. Result: 14 years on, no similar incidents, anywhere in the UK.
I wonder why the intuition in the US is so contrary to most other places. It seems to be the same sort of skewed balance-of-power logic that fueled the arms race for so many decades. I wonder about the sociological impact of spending so long in a Cold War between two pathologically paranoid governments continually trying to deter the other using weapons by increasing their own stockpiles of weapons. It was then, and is now, a highly flawed policy and philosophy that dominated defence thinking, and has needlessly left the world an irreversibly more dangerous place, despite the arguments of it's proponents.
I see that same logic working in the gun control argument in the US.
Long story short, I'm with Ed on this one.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I can't believe how anyone in their right mind can argue that more guns equals more safety. The comparison to e.g. heroine is just retarded. Yes, it's probably still easy to get a hold of despite of it being illegal, but you don't think there would be a helluva lot more heroine circling if it was made legal? Obviously, the same holds true for guns: legal and easy to acquire equals more guns. How else would you explain the number of guns in the US? Up here, in Sweden (you know, with the polar bears), I don't know of a single person owning or ever having owned a gun (aside from hunters having rifles).
A lot of you are saying it's perfectly safe for you to own/carry a gun cause you're sane normal persons etc and you'd have no problems whatsoever using proper judgement when faced with a live life threatening situation. Yeah, I'm sure you're all Dirty fuckin Harry at the shooting range, but the truth is that you probably have no idea how you'd react. My money is on that most sane people will be really really fuckin scared, have their adrenaline pumping like crazy, hands sweaty and heart beating 200+/min. I'm sure you'll have no problem making the proper calls there, right? We probably don't even need police anymore.
Not to belittle the horrible event at that bar that someone wrote about in the thread, but seriously, the answer is more people with guns? Fine, if the Dr. had had her gun on her person that night she might have been able to shoot the mad man and save lives, but in the long run it's just so shortsighted. What if, instead, the Hennard character, who probably had had some sort horrible misfortune happen to him that night and snapped, didn't have a bunch of guns laying around his house and instead of reacting on that crazy impulse sobered up/got his mind straight before he could get his hands on guns?
To be fair, we've had one such incident here in Sweden too, where two men who were denied entry to a prestigious night club in Stockholm, came back with automatic weapons and shot and killed a bunch of people. The difference was that these men were hard boiled criminals as apposed to some random hillbilly armed to his teeth. So yes, it might still happen despite guns being outlawed, but most likely more rarely.
Also, I keep hearing the argument that one needs to able to defend oneself and one's property. Now, I don't have statistics, but I wonder what is the most likely scenario in a gun owning household:
-Burglar/killer gets what s/he deserves by hero dad who sleeps with a magnum under his pillow and one eye opened.
or:
-drunken father/mother snaps at wife/husband in a dispute and...
-mom comes home early and finds husband in bed with another woman and...
-little Timmy finds a new toy and...
-depressed teenager shoots him/herself before or after bringing the gun to school...
You just can't keep fighting fire with fire. I'll probably get a lot of bashing for this but it's kinda the same with 'the war on terror'. Obviously, not in any way defending 9/11 or any other murdering of innocents, but it goes the other way too. 9/11 was horrible in every way, but it still doesn't justify starting wars under false pretenses, killing even more innocents (Americans as well). And it's not like these terrorists are some sort of unprovoked freedom haters or axis of evil or whatever dumb shit that moron blurted out. The simple fact is that there is just a limit to how many times you can fuck people over before they bite back.
Again, not defending it. But to think is was an act of meaningless hate is just ignorant. Obviously, to actually carry out such a horrible deed takes some pretty fucked people i.e. religious fundamentalists. Myself, I don't believe in any god and I think people who do are deluding themselves. But as long as they're not trying to shove their beliefs down my throat I don't mind it. However, it's always dangerous when people claim they have the one right way to live and try to impose it on others without trying to see things through their perspective. And I don't care whether we're talking muslim fundamentalists or christian ones, they're equally scary to me. I think this world would be a wonderful place if it wasn't for religion.
Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm sure there are innumerous perspectives left for me to consider, but these are my current feelings and opinions.
How??? because its a different group of people, my brother from down under. In this country, we have real ghettos, real gang bangers who usually get their guns illegally. We have domestic disputes in which murder is planned and would be carried out no matter what weapon is used. We have desparate people that will commit robberies, because they feel they need something that bad. I'm sorry for how this sounds, but the truth is we have a lot more bad people in this country and a lot more people in general.
And this is a moot point anyway because if law abiding citizens don't have guns in this country, criminals still will. Its just a fact. By the way, only locking your doors at night and when you're not home is the common practice in most neighborhoods here too.
How??? because its a different group of people, my brother from down under. In this country, we have real ghettos, real gang bangers who usually get their guns illegally. We have domestic disputes in which murder is planned and would be carried out no matter what weapon is used. We have desparate people that will commit robberies, because they feel they need something that bad. I'm sorry for how this sounds, but the truth is we have a lot more bad people in this country and a lot more people in general.
And this is a moot point anyway because if law abiding citizens don't have guns in this country, criminals still will. Its just a fact. By the way, only locking your doors at night and when you're not home is the common practice in most neighborhoods here too.
Comments
I tend to take this issue a bit personally. Back on Wednesday, Oct. 16th, 1991 at a Luby's cafeteria in the town I grew up in. It was "Boss's Day", and my dad was there along with some other family and many friends we all knew. A man named George Hennard drove his pickup truck right through the plate glass picture window into the lobby of the restaurant. He got out of his pickup with a couple of hand guns at the ready, and began methodically shooting people. My teacher's wife had hid under the table beneath the long table skirt, but Mr. Hennard saw her movement, and he briskly walked over to the table, lifted the table cloth and shot her in the head. He moved quickly, but seemed to thoroughly enjoy stalking the people in there. He would unload a magazine and quickly reload.
Dr. Suzanna Gratia was definitely one of the people within the restaurant that day that could have stopped this man, had she been allowed to carry her firearm on her person. Having known her, she would not have thought one second about dropping Hennard, and she definitely could have done it. Obeying the law however, she left her gun outside in her vehicle. Seeing how desperate the situation was, her dad Al, rushed Hennard but was shot and killed. Later as Hennard swept by again, he also shot and killed her mother Ursula.
Finally a big ol' boy named Tommy Vaughn charged the plate glass window in the back of the restaurant and busted right through it. He was cut up pretty bad, but it did allow my family and a lot of our other friends to escape.
The point is, you're never going to be able to do enough to keep guns away from people like George Hennard. And when you keep law-abiding citizens, who are properly trained on how to carry and fire their weapon, from carrying, then they lose their ability to protect themselves when up against an overwhelming opposing force.
Agreed. I am a gun owner that likes the idea of gun control (not sure how it would work) because I live in part of the world where every dumb hick has an arsenal and frankly, those majority of those morons can't be trusted with guns. I, on the other hand, am perfectly sane and reasonable. So, in conclusion, I can and will own as many guns as I like, but I'd prefer it if the rest of you disarmed.
Everyone cool with that?
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Wow. Thank you for posting that. I'm sure that was a traumatic event for all involved... and to think of the potential that it could, reasonably have been prevented at the onset.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
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*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
(shh... this is the only thread to start out talking about Dave that didn't progress into a comparison of the drummers!)
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Matt is totally a better shot with a .12 gauge than Dave A.
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I'll say that I agree with Ed 100% and I'll tell you a few of the reasons why I feel this way, and why I personally believe that having a gun in my home would do more harm than good.
OK Now PLEASE let me finish before you start bashing, it's only fair.
First, though, let me ask this:
* If guns are available to criminals, why does that mean you have to have one too? Stolen property, heroin, pornography, explosives, RPGs, even Nuclear Weapons are also available to criminals...do you want them as well?
So, if you do need one, or more, think about these things:
* If a criminal comes at you in your home with a gun, ARE YOU...
- going to be able to find your cabinet/trigger lock key, remove "your" gun from your legally locked cabinet or remove your conscientious child-proof trigger lock..AND THEN...in ANOTHER location... find your ammunition..load the gun, disable the safety, and shoot the bad dude before he puts 12 rounds into you, all in the midst of mind-numbing fear or anger?
- going to be able to keep a criminal from taking your gun and using it against you and your family?
- truly capable of killing another individual?
- as desperate and as experienced as the common thug on the street in handling a gun?
- prepared to accidentally shoot your wife, your child, your dog, amidst the chaos?
For those of you who would prefer to keep your weapon(s) ready and loaded in your nightstand, your dresser drawer, top shelf of your bedroom closet, under your mattress....PLEASE realize that NO MATTER how much you teach your children and how well you believe they understand, ALL CHILDREN, YES ~ EVEN YOURS!.... ARE CURIOUS and WILL at some point, unknown to even you, locate that well-hidden gun, perhaps just to show to a friend, or just to see what it feels like in their hand, or just innocently, to have a quick look....and should there be an accident...will YOU be able to live with YOURSELF...or will that protection take your own life as well as your child's in the end? PLEASE...THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS!
FINALLY - for those of you who believe you need a gun for protection against our government, rogue law enforcement, militias, terrorists, etc....do you really think you are going to outdo fanatics who most likely have trained daily and religiously for years if not a lifetime just so they WILL have the ability to take you and yours by surprise and do away with you before you even have any freakin idea of what's happening around you...and if you do believe that they're coming for you, do you think they're coming alone? What will your little hidden away protection do for you then?
Besides Glorified G, the lyrics to this sad, sad commentary come to mind:
Go to this link ~ LISTEN and THINK people!
http://www.jango.com/music/Smile+Empty+Soul?l=0
Even the Most Avid Enthusiasts cannot deny that this is what our society's answer to nearly every problem is:
Smile Empty Soul ~ "This Is War"
I'm just a normal man
I wouldn't hurt nothing at all
But here we are
Our leaders have a plan
I'd only kill if it's for them
Now here we are
I drove in a car and flew in a plane
To come to your house and kick your door in
Now it's down to this, it's just you and me
I'll blow your fucking head off for my country
I go to church and tithe
I go to work in a suit and tie
But this is war
I'm really not sure why
But the TV says that you are wrong
Now here we are
My feet hurt from the sand
But still i march on gun in hand
Cause this is war
This isn't what i planned
I wanted to be so much more
But this is war
I drove in a car and flew in a plane
To come to your house and kick your door in
Now it's down to this, it's just you and me
I'll blow your fucking head off for my country
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know about all of you, but this says it all for me.....things HAVE to change!
That's my two cents...
OK bump this off to somewhere else! It's SICKENING!
-
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
Here is my response
Point 1:
Everybody believes in arms control..for me I think people should be allowed to conceal and carry in any state and the current ban on automatic weapons is probably good. Also most criminals don't own RPGs, explosives, and Nuclear Weapons. I would argue that heroin shouldn't even been illegal and porn is already legal. Perhaps if the owners had guns the criminals wouldn't have any stolen property to begin with.
Point 2 and 3:
I plan on keeping my gun loaded under my bed ( I say plan because right now its in a bunch of pieces waiting to be built). I also plan on buying 2 handguns they will be loaded in my wifes and mine night tables drawers. When I am not home all the guns and ammo will be locked up. I also have no kids and don't plan 2 so its not a concern for me.
- going to be able to keep a criminal from taking your gun and using it against you and your family?
yes I know where they are and will be able to get to them before the criminal since they need to get into my room to get at them
- truly capable of killing another individual?
yes
- as desperate and as experienced as the common thug on the street in handling a gun?
I am building my gun so that kinda makes me more experienced plus we goto the range every few weeks...most gun owners all the basics for the weapons. Nothing is a desperate as protecting yourself and love ones.
- prepared to accidentally shoot your wife, your child, your dog, amidst the chaos?
My wife is next to me unless I shot backwards she will be fine. I don't have any kids and if my dog gets hit well thats fine.
Point 4:
Do think I would stand alone and if the government comes after me I have protection and if the government doesn't come after what have I lost? Also its protection against foreign invasion. In Switzerland every person gets to keep their gun so they can raise an army in a matter of hours.
I guess all I have to say to that is: "If my dog gets hit well thats fine"???????
That pretty much tells me all I need to know, thank you very much.
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
I would never internally hurt my dog. In fact my gun is so accurate that I would hope to neutralize the enemy(s) without missing a single shot. Since I am using a rifle with an optical as my first line of defense there is no reason to miss. The less accurate and harder to aim handguns are only if shit really hits the fan. To be honest my biggest concern is missing the enemy and having a bullet go through a wall and hit somebody in another unit next my mine ( i live in a conner townhouse so 2 walls touch other units). Though I would either have to shoot into the wall right behind me or directly to the right so I have determined the chance of that happening to be close to 0%.
Also what are you going to do when the zombies invade?
I'm gonna bake 'em a pie
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
I kid, I kid!
America sure is screwed up. Here in Australia, my parents actually leave the back house door OPEN 24/7. They only lock the front door at about 10pm at night through to morning. And in the 20-odd years of living there they have never had a single item stolen.
Look at these stats (for 2008):
America
Population: 303,824,640
Robberies Total: 441,855
Robberies w/ firearms: 43.5% (0.1454% of population)
Murders w/ firearms: 9,369 (3.08e-5 % of population)
Australia
Population: 21,007,310
Robberies Total: 16,500
Robberies w/ firearms: 6% (0.0785% of population) (half the american count)
Murders w/ firearms: 59 (2.80e-6 % of population) (less than a tenth of the american count)
How can you possibly say being able to freely carry firearms around doesn't increase the crime rate (not to mention murders and other things)?
And you can't compare knifes to guns. Guns give you the ability to kill people very easily and quickly. Killing someone with a knife is much harder. If a guy runs into a shopping center with a knife and starts killing people, and a guy runs into a shopping center with a gun, I know who my money is on to kill more.
Sources:
- http://www.google.com.au/search?q=popul ... =firefox-a
- http://www.google.com.au/search?q=popul ... =firefox-a
- http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offense ... bbery.html
- http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf ... enDocument
- http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf ... endocument
Above is truely the most illogical post ever. How are you even debating at this point anyway? Have you not read the previous posts? Did you not read the one about the guy's family and friends in Luby's?
Look its real, real simple. If someone intends to kill you, yes you want to have a gun or have someone around that does to kill them first. Will you be capable in that moment: yes. Are you prepared to accidentally hit what you are not aiming at, to protect your family from who is INTENTIONALLY aiming at them?: of course. Should you plan when you have young children?: yes, here's an idea - have a clip loaded weapon and put the gun and clip in differnt places that are easily accessable to you, but not to them. Can you have your weapon ready to use in time?: very likely - read one of my previous posts. Can you prevent them from taking your weapon: most likely, a gun is different from a knife in that it can be used from a distance :roll:
Yes, accidents happen, yes its sad, but we can't deny the rights of people to protect themselves and their families to prevent rare accidents. Sometimes people do stupid things, sometimes parents do stupid things, sometimes it darwinism, sometimes its bad luck. Its sad sometimes, but we learn lessons from these types of things. I know a bleeding heart can't understand this, but its reality.
Finally, in the most desparate of times, will regular people with guns be able to fend of a militia?: Possibly, but one thing is for certain, people will band together and try - and that in itself is enough to protect us from most potential enemies.
The worst thing we could do is say, "well there is a chance bad things could happen to the good folks, so lets just have them be defenseless against those who INTEND to harm them" Doesn't even make sense.
I think what I think....
That's how it is, right?
That's it...stick a fork in me, I'm done.
Now, back to what really matters...this isn't it.
BUT....Hey, at least Ed agrees with me!
EDIT>>>>Oh right, almost forgot to add:
You guys sure read an awful lot of stuff that qualifies as the stupidest (??? is that even a word??) anyway...the stupidest post you've ever seen....just sayin'
Nighty night sleep tight...keep your guns by your side ... NOT by mine!
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
And this is a moot point anyway because if law abiding citizens don't have guns in this country, criminals still will. Its just a fact. By the way, only locking your doors at night and when you're not home is the common practice in most neighborhoods here too.
Nice concession
I counter this argument with http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/w ... crime.html and
http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/w ... crime.html.
We agree that Switzerland has a very high gun count per capita look at the crime states even compared to Australia. I believe this proves the point legal gun owners have nothing to do with crime rates or that legal gun owners play a role in decreasing crime. Either way it doesn't fair well for the anti-gun argument. With approx 1/2 the murders and robberies per 100,000 people when compared with Australia it should be clear your argument is flawed.
In the future, 50-100 years from now, will we have museums that reenact gangsta rapper shootouts / school shooting massacres / and other gun related crimes of the late 20th/early 21st century, the way we now do with the Wild West? "See Biggie shot, 12pm, 1pm, 3pm, last showing 4:30!! Great fun for the kids!!"
I don't trust a nation that mentions GOD and GUNS in the constitution.
Take south africa for example, I know many folk there carry guns as muggings are common place, so its all about self defence? does that make it right? No but does it make it necessary? absolutely.
Would anyone ever want to use a gun against another person? No, do they sometimes have to? Yes, thats sad, and its an indictment of todays society.
So guns have no purpose at all, they are hiedously dangerous, unnecessary, and a cause of senseless misery every day. But they are in the world, so we have to live with that. so to ban them would be idiotic.
In America, a mass shooting incident like Columbine or Virginia Tech makes many people (not everybody, I know) make the leap to saying "we need more guns to protect ourselves". And the shootings just keep on happening (and I would bet a lot of money that there are vastly more murders committed by privately owned guns, as opposed to criminally-owned guns, than a lot of gun advocate would be comforatble to admit.)
By contrast, in Europe - taking the Dunblane massacre in Scotland as an example - a mass shooting incident led to calls for much stricter gun controls (not a blanket ban, mind you). People's reaction was to get rid of their guns en masse. Result: 14 years on, no similar incidents, anywhere in the UK.
I wonder why the intuition in the US is so contrary to most other places. It seems to be the same sort of skewed balance-of-power logic that fueled the arms race for so many decades. I wonder about the sociological impact of spending so long in a Cold War between two pathologically paranoid governments continually trying to deter the other using weapons by increasing their own stockpiles of weapons. It was then, and is now, a highly flawed policy and philosophy that dominated defence thinking, and has needlessly left the world an irreversibly more dangerous place, despite the arguments of it's proponents.
I see that same logic working in the gun control argument in the US.
Long story short, I'm with Ed on this one.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
A lot of you are saying it's perfectly safe for you to own/carry a gun cause you're sane normal persons etc and you'd have no problems whatsoever using proper judgement when faced with a live life threatening situation. Yeah, I'm sure you're all Dirty fuckin Harry at the shooting range, but the truth is that you probably have no idea how you'd react. My money is on that most sane people will be really really fuckin scared, have their adrenaline pumping like crazy, hands sweaty and heart beating 200+/min. I'm sure you'll have no problem making the proper calls there, right? We probably don't even need police anymore.
Not to belittle the horrible event at that bar that someone wrote about in the thread, but seriously, the answer is more people with guns? Fine, if the Dr. had had her gun on her person that night she might have been able to shoot the mad man and save lives, but in the long run it's just so shortsighted. What if, instead, the Hennard character, who probably had had some sort horrible misfortune happen to him that night and snapped, didn't have a bunch of guns laying around his house and instead of reacting on that crazy impulse sobered up/got his mind straight before he could get his hands on guns?
To be fair, we've had one such incident here in Sweden too, where two men who were denied entry to a prestigious night club in Stockholm, came back with automatic weapons and shot and killed a bunch of people. The difference was that these men were hard boiled criminals as apposed to some random hillbilly armed to his teeth. So yes, it might still happen despite guns being outlawed, but most likely more rarely.
Also, I keep hearing the argument that one needs to able to defend oneself and one's property. Now, I don't have statistics, but I wonder what is the most likely scenario in a gun owning household:
-Burglar/killer gets what s/he deserves by hero dad who sleeps with a magnum under his pillow and one eye opened.
or:
-drunken father/mother snaps at wife/husband in a dispute and...
-mom comes home early and finds husband in bed with another woman and...
-little Timmy finds a new toy and...
-depressed teenager shoots him/herself before or after bringing the gun to school...
You just can't keep fighting fire with fire. I'll probably get a lot of bashing for this but it's kinda the same with 'the war on terror'. Obviously, not in any way defending 9/11 or any other murdering of innocents, but it goes the other way too. 9/11 was horrible in every way, but it still doesn't justify starting wars under false pretenses, killing even more innocents (Americans as well). And it's not like these terrorists are some sort of unprovoked freedom haters or axis of evil or whatever dumb shit that moron blurted out. The simple fact is that there is just a limit to how many times you can fuck people over before they bite back.
Again, not defending it. But to think is was an act of meaningless hate is just ignorant. Obviously, to actually carry out such a horrible deed takes some pretty fucked people i.e. religious fundamentalists. Myself, I don't believe in any god and I think people who do are deluding themselves. But as long as they're not trying to shove their beliefs down my throat I don't mind it. However, it's always dangerous when people claim they have the one right way to live and try to impose it on others without trying to see things through their perspective. And I don't care whether we're talking muslim fundamentalists or christian ones, they're equally scary to me. I think this world would be a wonderful place if it wasn't for religion.
Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm sure there are innumerous perspectives left for me to consider, but these are my current feelings and opinions.
where are you from? just interested...
where are you from? just interested...