Health Care: Does Canada Do It Better?

2456

Comments

  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    dunkman wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    as for quality of care, America absolutely is the best in the world. we lead the world in innovation and research. and disagreeing doesnt make you "un-america", just ignorant to the reality.


    no its not


    Seven years ago, the World Health Organization made the first major effort to rank the health systems of 191 nations. France and Italy took the top two spots; the United States was a dismal 37th. More recently, the highly regarded Commonwealth Fund has pioneered in comparing the United States with other advanced nations through surveys of patients and doctors and analysis of other data. Its latest report, issued in May, ranked the United States last or next-to-last compared with five other nations — Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom — on most measures of performance, including quality of care and access to it. Other comparative studies also put the United States in a relatively bad light.

    that was actually 9 years ago, alot has changed since then in terms of technology innovation and money spent on research....and it takes into account access, which is the major difference between the US and France/Italy.
  • dunkman
    dunkman Posts: 19,646
    jlew24asu wrote:
    as for quality of care, America absolutely is the best in the world. we lead the world in innovation and research. and disagreeing doesnt make you "un-america", just ignorant to the reality.


    no its not


    Insurance coverage.

    All other major industrialized nations provide universal health coverage, and most of them have comprehensive benefit packages with no cost-sharing by the patients. The United States, to its shame, has some 45 million people without health insurance and many more millions who have poor coverage. Although the president has blithely said that these people can always get treatment in an emergency room, many studies have shown that people without insurance postpone treatment until a minor illness becomes worse, harming their own health and imposing greater costs.


    Access.

    Citizens abroad often face long waits before they can get to see a specialist or undergo elective surgery. Americans typically get prompter attention, although Germany does better. The real barriers here are the costs facing low-income people without insurance or with skimpy coverage. But even Americans with above-average incomes find it more difficult than their counterparts abroad to get care on nights or weekends without going to an emergency room, and many report having to wait six days or more for an appointment with their own doctors.

    Fairness.
    The United States ranks dead last on almost all measures of equity because we have the greatest disparity in the quality of care given to richer and poorer citizens. Americans with below-average incomes are much less likely than their counterparts in other industrialized nations to see a doctor when sick, to fill prescriptions or to get needed tests and follow-up care.

    Healthy lives.
    We have known for years that America has a high infant mortality rate, so it is no surprise that we rank last among 23 nations by that yardstick. But the problem is much broader. We rank near the bottom in healthy life expectancy at age 60, and 15th among 19 countries in deaths from a wide range of illnesses that would not have been fatal if treated with timely and effective care. The good news is that we have done a better job than other industrialized nations in reducing smoking. The bad news is that our obesity epidemic is the worst in the world.

    Quality.
    In a comparison with five other countries, the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States first in providing the “right care” for a given condition as defined by standard clinical guidelines and gave it especially high marks for preventive care, like Pap smears and mammograms to detect early-stage cancers, and blood tests and cholesterol checks for hypertensive patients. But we scored poorly in coordinating the care of chronically ill patients, in protecting the safety of patients, and in meeting their needs and preferences, which drove our overall quality rating down to last place. American doctors and hospitals kill patients through surgical and medical mistakes more often than their counterparts in other industrialized nations.
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    dunkman wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    as for quality of care, America absolutely is the best in the world. we lead the world in innovation and research. and disagreeing doesnt make you "un-america", just ignorant to the reality.


    no its not

    Insurance coverage.

    Access.

    Fairness.

    these are related to the "system". which I said isn't the best.

    dunkman wrote:
    Healthy lives.

    Americans are fat, thats not the fault of the healthcare system.
    dunkman wrote:
    Quality.
    In a comparison with five other countries, the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States first in providing the “right care” for a given condition as defined by standard clinical guidelines and gave it especially high marks for preventive care, like Pap smears and mammograms to detect early-stage cancers, and blood tests and cholesterol checks for hypertensive patients. But we scored poorly in coordinating the care of chronically ill patients, in protecting the safety of patients, and in meeting their needs and preferences, which drove our overall quality rating down to last place. American doctors and hospitals kill patients through surgical and medical mistakes more often than their counterparts in other industrialized nations.


    again, this is coming from a report almost a decade old? but it is nice to see the US ranked #1 providing the "right care"
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Dunkman, did you watch the video? I'd love to know your thoughts.
  • dunkman
    dunkman Posts: 19,646
    jlew24asu wrote:
    dunkman wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    as for quality of care, America absolutely is the best in the world. we lead the world in innovation and research. and disagreeing doesnt make you "un-america", just ignorant to the reality.


    no its not


    Seven years ago, the World Health Organization made the first major effort to rank the health systems of 191 nations. France and Italy took the top two spots; the United States was a dismal 37th. More recently, the highly regarded Commonwealth Fund has pioneered in comparing the United States with other advanced nations through surveys of patients and doctors and analysis of other data. Its latest report, issued in May, ranked the United States last or next-to-last compared with five other nations — Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom — on most measures of performance, including quality of care and access to it. Other comparative studies also put the United States in a relatively bad light.

    that was actually 9 years ago, alot has changed since then in terms of technology innovation and money spent on research....and it takes into account access, which is the major difference between the US and France/Italy.


    from 2008 May report by the Commonwealth Fund

    More than 40% of working age adults in the U.S. had difficulty paying medical bills or accumulated medical debt last year, compared with about 33% in 2005, according to a Commonwealth Fund study released Wednesday, the Washington Post reports. For the study, researchers analyzed data from the Commonwealth Fund Biennial Health Insurance Survey, conducted in 2001, 2003, 2005 and 2007. The survey found that about two-thirds of U.S. adults between ages 19 and 64 were uninsured, underinsured, reported a problem with a medical bill or did not get care due to high costs in 2007. The study also found:

    * 39% of U.S. residents with growing medical bills used their savings, 30% incurred credit card debt and 29% said medical bills left them unable to pay for basic necessities such as food, heat or rent;

    * 28% of working age adults had no insurance at some time during the previous year, up from 24% in 2001;

    * 61% of people with difficulty paying medical bills or debt were insured at the time they received the treatment;

    * 14% of adults in 2007 were insured but without adequate insurance, compared with 9% in 2003; and

    * Among people with annual incomes below $20,000, 53% spent more than 10% of their income on health care, compared with 26% of this group in 2005.


    The study also found that half of U.S. adults with incomes less than $20,000 were uninsured at some time last year, compared with 41% of those with annual incomes between $20,000 and $40,000 and 18% of those with incomes between $40,000 and $60,000.

    Commonwealth Fund President Karen Davis said, "The U.S. stands out for being the only country ... that reports significant fractions of the population not getting needed care"
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • dunkman
    dunkman Posts: 19,646
    jlew24asu wrote:
    dunkman wrote:


    Quality.
    In a comparison with five other countries, the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States first in providing the “right care” for a given condition as defined by standard clinical guidelines and gave it especially high marks for preventive care, like Pap smears and mammograms to detect early-stage cancers, and blood tests and cholesterol checks for hypertensive patients. But we scored poorly in coordinating the care of chronically ill patients, in protecting the safety of patients, and in meeting their needs and preferences, which drove our overall quality rating down to last place. American doctors and hospitals kill patients through surgical and medical mistakes more often than their counterparts in other industrialized nations.


    again, this is coming from a report almost a decade old? but it is nice to see the US ranked #1 providing the "right care"

    "right care" for a given condition... nice way to edit the text to prove your point. :lol:

    you were LAST PLACE overall... because although the 'right care' is given for some preventative care, cancers, etc.... you were let down badly by other factors which result in you not having the 'best' system in the world... you simply do not... you might do if you have $21 million in the bank, but then thats not a fairly common bank account figure for the 40% of americans who simply cannot afford the most basic of medical cover.


    please explain how "American doctors and hospitals kill patients through surgical and medical mistakes more often than their counterparts in other industrialized nations." means that your 'quality of care' is the best in the world... is dying because of a mistake a good thing over there?
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    dunkman wrote:


    from 2008 May report by the Commonwealth Fund

    More than 40% of working age adults in the U.S. had difficulty paying medical bills or accumulated medical debt last year, compared with about 33% in 2005, according to a Commonwealth Fund study released Wednesday, the Washington Post reports. For the study, researchers analyzed data from the Commonwealth Fund Biennial Health Insurance Survey, conducted in 2001, 2003, 2005 and 2007. The survey found that about two-thirds of U.S. adults between ages 19 and 64 were uninsured, underinsured, reported a problem with a medical bill or did not get care due to high costs in 2007. The study also found:

    * 39% of U.S. residents with growing medical bills used their savings, 30% incurred credit card debt and 29% said medical bills left them unable to pay for basic necessities such as food, heat or rent;

    * 28% of working age adults had no insurance at some time during the previous year, up from 24% in 2001;

    * 61% of people with difficulty paying medical bills or debt were insured at the time they received the treatment;

    * 14% of adults in 2007 were insured but without adequate insurance, compared with 9% in 2003; and

    * Among people with annual incomes below $20,000, 53% spent more than 10% of their income on health care, compared with 26% of this group in 2005.


    The study also found that half of U.S. adults with incomes less than $20,000 were uninsured at some time last year, compared with 41% of those with annual incomes between $20,000 and $40,000 and 18% of those with incomes between $40,000 and $60,000.

    Commonwealth Fund President Karen Davis said, "The U.S. stands out for being the only country ... that reports significant fractions of the population not getting needed care"


    again, I never said our system was the best. I said we lead the world in innovation and research. all the nice stats you posted have nothing to do with that.

    can we move on?

    did you watch the video?
  • dunkman
    dunkman Posts: 19,646
    jlew24asu wrote:
    Dunkman, did you watch the video? I'd love to know your thoughts.

    i cant watch it just now as i dont have headphones... will check it out later.
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Not necessarily. If a public options exists, the company is dropping cost and their employees will still have coverage. So, they are reducing the so-called "fixed" costs (which will become variable if a public option does exist) to help them remain competitive in a global economy and compete with countries with much lower wage rates.

    It's not always about greed...it could be about reality.
    ...
    That's making the assumption that the decision makers would be using the surplus in expenditures from cutting Health Care Insurance for their employees for economic growth for the company... and not massive pay increases for the ones who made the decision.
    We don't really know, do we?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Cosmo wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Not necessarily. If a public options exists, the company is dropping cost and their employees will still have coverage. So, they are reducing the so-called "fixed" costs (which will become variable if a public option does exist) to help them remain competitive in a global economy and compete with countries with much lower wage rates.

    It's not always about greed...it could be about reality.
    ...
    That's making the assumption that the decision makers would be using the surplus in expenditures from cutting Health Care Insurance for their employees for economic growth for the company... and not massive pay increases for the ones who made the decision.
    We don't really know, do we?


    I think its safe to say its a little of both.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    i didn't watch the video ...

    but to answer ... canada does it differently ... up to me - i definitely choose paying less and getting more over paying more and getting less (in general) ...

    but it only works when your gov't isn't run by corporations
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    i didn't watch the video ...

    but to answer ... canada does it differently ... up to me - i definitely choose paying less and getting more over paying more and getting less (in general) ...

    but it only works when your gov't isn't run by corporations

    you should watch the video. why won't you? its only 6 mins long.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    you should watch the video. why won't you? its only 6 mins long.

    i watched the video and i can understand why they disabled the "add comments" section ... it's really i would say a piece of shitty journalism ... it definitely distorts the truth ...

    look canada's system is far from perfect - one reason is because it is being sabotaged by those who want us to privatize health care ... yes, wait times have gone up - not because of the system but because funding for health care has been slashed ... if you don't properly fund something - it's not gonna work ... that relates to everything in this world ... having said that - my friend who doesn't make a lot of money who is pregnant just got diagnosed with acute leukemia in her 3rd trimester ... she is getting the best possible care right now and it's not costing her a dime ... she and her husband will have to pay some for some drugs but it's not gonna hafta take a loan to pay for it ... i'm not too sure what would have happened if they were in the states ...

    i have said all along in this US healthcare debate that i do not think the US gov't can properly implement a health care system that would be cost-effective ... nothing is ever done without ensuring the large corporations make a shit load of money ... fundamentally, it dooms a system if everyone in the chain needs to make mass profits ...

    as for innovation - our hospital for sick kids here in toronto is a world-renowned hospital ... kids from all over the world get sent here and the research conducted there has been responsible for many landmark findings ... sure, you guys invented a bunch of stuff ... but so did other researchers in other countries ... saying a for-profit system is the only way you can accomplish that is inherently false ...

    so ... in the end - it's not perfect but as a person who would likely have good health care coverage in the US - i would not trade what we have for all our people here for what i would get for myself over there ...
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    I wish we had single payer health care. I didn't realize how much it is to have a kid... it's not like we were planning it or anything :? I'm gonna be paying this off for years. Between premiums, deductibles and the actual bills, I'll pay ~$7k this year. :shock:
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    i watched the video and i can understand why they disabled the "add comments" section ... it's really i would say a piece of shitty journalism ... it definitely distorts the truth ...


    I'm glad you watched. but nothing they said distorts the truth. and nothing you've said below disputes anything in the video.

    you know someone who is getting care, thats fantastic, but there are apparently many who wait months for such things in Canada. and to say she doesnt have to pay a dime is extremely misleading. she pays through high taxes. money she works hard for is taken out of her paycheck at a much higher rate then the US.

    and you say wait times are long and money is a problem....imagine multiplying that by 10 and you have the US. we are ten times larger then you.

    I agree.."saying a for-profit system is the only way you can accomplish that is inherently false ... " its not the only way, but by far the best way.

    that said, I don;t think you are one who is advocating the US adopt a single payer system. we can accomplish much better system then we have now without having the government run healthcare.
    polaris_x wrote:
    look canada's system is far from perfect - one reason is because it is being sabotaged by those who want us to privatize health care ... yes, wait times have gone up - not because of the system but because funding for health care has been slashed ... if you don't properly fund something - it's not gonna work ... that relates to everything in this world ... having said that - my friend who doesn't make a lot of money who is pregnant just got diagnosed with acute leukemia in her 3rd trimester ... she is getting the best possible care right now and it's not costing her a dime ... she and her husband will have to pay some for some drugs but it's not gonna hafta take a loan to pay for it ... i'm not too sure what would have happened if they were in the states ...

    i have said all along in this US healthcare debate that i do not think the US gov't can properly implement a health care system that would be cost-effective ... nothing is ever done without ensuring the large corporations make a shit load of money ... fundamentally, it dooms a system if everyone in the chain needs to make mass profits ...

    as for innovation - our hospital for sick kids here in toronto is a world-renowned hospital ... kids from all over the world get sent here and the research conducted there has been responsible for many landmark findings ... sure, you guys invented a bunch of stuff ... but so did other researchers in other countries ... saying a for-profit system is the only way you can accomplish that is inherently false ...

    so ... in the end - it's not perfect but as a person who would likely have good health care coverage in the US - i would not trade what we have for all our people here for what i would get for myself over there ...
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    he still stands wrote:
    I wish we had single payer health care. I didn't realize how much it is to have a kid... it's not like we were planning it or anything :? I'm gonna be paying this off for years. Between premiums, deductibles and the actual bills, I'll pay ~$7k this year. :shock:

    if you didn't realize how much having a kid is, then you shouldn't have had one. planned or not. and if we had a single payer system, there would be a good chance you'd be making thousands less in take home pay because of higher taxes. not to mention shitty care, long lines, etc.
  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    i watched the video and i can understand why they disabled the "add comments" section ... it's really i would say a piece of shitty journalism ... it definitely distorts the truth ...


    I'm glad you watched. but nothing they said distorts the truth. and nothing you've said below disputes anything in the video.

    you know someone who is getting care, thats fantastic, but there are apparently many who wait months for such things in Canada. and to say she doesnt have to pay a dime is extremely misleading. she pays through high taxes. money she works hard for is taken out of her paycheck at a much higher rate then the US.

    and you say wait times are long and money is a problem....imagine multiplying that by 10 and you have the US. we are ten times larger then you.

    I agree.."saying a for-profit system is the only way you can accomplish that is inherently false ... " its not the only way, but by far the best way.

    that said, I don;t think you are one who is advocating the US adopt a single payer system. we can accomplish much better system then we have now without having the government run healthcare.
    polaris_x wrote:
    look canada's system is far from perfect - one reason is because it is being sabotaged by those who want us to privatize health care ... yes, wait times have gone up - not because of the system but because funding for health care has been slashed ... if you don't properly fund something - it's not gonna work ... that relates to everything in this world ... having said that - my friend who doesn't make a lot of money who is pregnant just got diagnosed with acute leukemia in her 3rd trimester ... she is getting the best possible care right now and it's not costing her a dime ... she and her husband will have to pay some for some drugs but it's not gonna hafta take a loan to pay for it ... i'm not too sure what would have happened if they were in the states ...

    i have said all along in this US healthcare debate that i do not think the US gov't can properly implement a health care system that would be cost-effective ... nothing is ever done without ensuring the large corporations make a shit load of money ... fundamentally, it dooms a system if everyone in the chain needs to make mass profits ...

    as for innovation - our hospital for sick kids here in toronto is a world-renowned hospital ... kids from all over the world get sent here and the research conducted there has been responsible for many landmark findings ... sure, you guys invented a bunch of stuff ... but so did other researchers in other countries ... saying a for-profit system is the only way you can accomplish that is inherently false ...

    so ... in the end - it's not perfect but as a person who would likely have good health care coverage in the US - i would not trade what we have for all our people here for what i would get for myself over there ...


    people in the US who have insurance still have to wait to be seen
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    jlew24asu wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    I wish we had single payer health care. I didn't realize how much it is to have a kid... it's not like we were planning it or anything :? I'm gonna be paying this off for years. Between premiums, deductibles and the actual bills, I'll pay ~$7k this year. :shock:

    if you didn't realize how much having a kid is, then you shouldn't have had one. planned or not. and if we had a single payer system, there would be a good chance you'd be making thousands less in take home pay because of higher taxes. not to mention shitty care, long lines, etc.

    Not a smart thing to say to me buddy. Are you suggesting we should have had an abortion?
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I'm glad you watched. but nothing they said distorts the truth. and nothing you've said below disputes anything in the video.

    you know someone who is getting care, thats fantastic, but there are apparently many who wait months for such things in Canada. and to say she doesnt have to pay a dime is extremely misleading. she pays through high taxes. money she works hard for is taken out of her paycheck at a much higher rate then the US.

    and you say wait times are long and money is a problem....imagine multiplying that by 10 and you have the US. we are ten times larger then you.

    I agree.."saying a for-profit system is the only way you can accomplish that is inherently false ... " its not the only way, but by far the best way.

    that said, I don;t think you are one who is advocating the US adopt a single payer system. we can accomplish much better system then we have now without having the government run healthcare.

    it is a distortion of the truth because it takes several examples and implies that's the way it is for everything everywhere ... that is simply not true ... touting US innovations and ignoring everyone else's is blatantly misleading ... shitty journalism ...

    our taxes are higher for a multitude of reasons ... but our gov't pays less per person on health care than yours and yet overall coverage is much better for the average person here ... that is why on every index in the world that deals with overall health care - Canada ranks higher than the US ... that's the crux of the problem ...

    and for-profit is NOT the best way for innovation ... just because you believe so and say so doesn't make it a fact ...



    please refrain from making statements you can't back up ...
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    I heart Scout Niblett wrote:

    people in the US who have insurance still have to wait to be seen

    so? you think a single payer system would bring those wait times down or up?

Categories