Health Care: Does Canada Do It Better?
jlew24asu
Posts: 10,118
I usually don't like threads that have nothing but a youtube link, but this is a 20/20 episode discussing many important topics about Healthcare. they also go into some details about the beloved Canadian system. I know its hard to debate a youtube vid but I'd be happy to see what you think. maybe we can debate parts of it.
its only 6:22.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJgkvF19QA
its only 6:22.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJgkvF19QA
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I don't know... but, what does that matter? Are we going to be copying the Canadian model? The British model? No.
The House Bill is going to make the Insurance Companies that our employers are paying for quit screwing us when we get sick.
The Public Option... key word being OPTION... will be for those who are not covered by their employers and cannot afford to go it alone in the insurance open waters.
It is not choosing who lives or dies... or giving it to illegal aliens... or a government takeover of the Health Care system. It is trying to come up with a way to fix a fucked up situation regarding the current system where the insurance companies decide... and covering the Americans who are not currently being covered.
Hail, Hail!!!
thats a good point. there are so many people on this board who want a public option, I keep forgetting they are in such a low minority that it will never happen.
I'm all for that.
this is where it gets tricky. can covering those who really can't afford it themselves be done without creating a "public option" ?
did you watch the video I posted?
no but i like what he said.
i'll watch it now.
edit: yes i know government run anything can suck. believe me i know....i'm on medicaid. i know why people don't want a government take over. really, i get it. but something has to be done. we've waited too long as it is.
if you're afraid by this video, it's simple....don't sign up for public option. there's people that will still be with their insurance companies, so it won’t be flooded like on the video.
I have always stated... The Public Option is not the best care out there. But, something, even at the base level, is better than nothing. I use the Post Office as an example because the Post Office is a Public Option to postal delivery. It can be argued that the Post Office is in direct competition with UPS and FedEX. But, not every goes to the post office. Why? Because you get better service at UPS and FedEX. It'll cost you more, but you won't have to deal with long lines. That Option is for YOU to choose, the government does not mandate you use the Post Office. UPS and FedEX are doing just fine... not going out of business because of the Post Office.
Also, the Public Option is NOT going to be government employed Doctors. The Public Option is for Federal Assistance to pay for doctors. More along the lines of competition for the Insurance Companies, not doctors and hospitals. People will still need to pay for the Public Option, they will get assistance, it won't be free.
...
If you are currently insured... it is up to you to decide... stay with your current plan... or go with the Public Option. Most people currently insured will STAY with their current plan. Why go to some place where you'll get Post Office like service, when you already have FedEX service? I'm going to. I'm sticking with my Employer provided Health Care plan because I love it.
But, if i get swept up in a massive lay-off... I will still be able to be covered by the Public Option. I can be try to purchase health care insurance... but, how am i going to pay for it... i just got laid off. I would have to go into my savings, sell off stuff, etc... is that the American Dream?
And people who work at lower paying jobs... whose small business owners cannot afford to pay. I care about them. They are WORKING Americans... I care if they get sick... if their kids get sick. I'm saddened when we are denied the truth of the matter and only get bullshit.. ridiculous bullshit, like Death Panels and free Cadillac Health Care for Illegals from people who want Obama to fail... so, they drag America down with him. This partisanship makes me puke... but, that's okay... I got health care coverage.
Hail, Hail!!!
in theory, thats great. but many problems with this. one, the public option would be extremely inefficient like the post office, I agree. but this is healthcare, not the post office. people are going to DEMAND that the healthcare be perfect...and the only way to do that is throw money at it. which is what I fear will happen. we'll go bankrupt trying to make a system work that can never be perfect....as seen with this video about Canada.
instead of a public option, how about throwing more money at public clinics. I'd say that network can be greatly improved even by spending an 1/8 of the money used for a public option.
yea I know. and the person paying the bill usually has a say in what its willing to pay for. which may or may not always be in our best interest.
what happens when companies start to drop people from their plan? then I'll be forced to buy my own expensive coverage, or use the "public" option that I'm paying for anyway through higher taxes. which will eventually come to everyone.
the current bill calls for companies to be fined 8% of their payroll for not offering health insurance. its much cheaper to take the fine then it is pay the premiums.
AGREED!! I've been saying it should be a unemployment benefit since this debate started
Agree again. and I think left and right agree on this as well so this really isnt up for debate. it will be part of reform.
See... I'm not the looney Michael Moore that cannot be reasoned with. we have comon ground on most of the points discussed.
...
On the above points...
People may demand perfect healthcare from the Public option... but, they ain't gonna get it. It is like demanding the post Office get better... ain't gonna happen. Don't like it... there are better health care choices out there... pay up. Sort of like... yeah, I love Ferraris... but, i drive a Durango. Demanding i get a Ferrarri for the price of a 10 year old Durango... ain't gonna happen.
And the idea about the current networks of clinics... that can help.
...
And if companies start dumping employees into the public option... what does that tell you about that company? About that CEO? It tells you they do NOT care about us... they are in it because of GREED. It would be NOT profits from making a better profit... it would be profits from SCREWING their own employees. I would revolt here at work... and so would the other 25,000 employees.
Hail, Hail!!!
Why do we spend so much more on healthcare, per capita, than other developed countries? Why do we spend up to twice as much per person as countries that do provide universal coverage, while leaving as many as 45 million Americans without insurance? why do we rank so poorly among other countries on measures of life expectancy, infant mortality and certain causes that should not occur in the presence of timely and effective healthcare?
You know what i think part of the problems is?
The problem is that there are too many Americans that do not believe it's a problem. Hell, we've been told for so long that we are number one in pretty much everything right. I disagree that we are the best at everything, but still, there's no denying that has been the mindset. Deny that and omg you are 'Un - American'. That's why there is such an outcry over the possibility of changing to a system similar to Canada's or the UK's. Even though our system is a disgrace, some people would rather keep it than admit that those countries just might have a better solution. How selfish and disgusting is that.
Then of course we get the argument that a single-payer system would be run by the government. Again, we've had it drummed into our heads that the government will never be able to do anything right. How do you know if you don't give them a chance?
I really haven't dug into the complexities of the debate...but I genuinely hope you guys can figure something out that doesn't further divide your country, and will provide a hand up to those that need it most.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gl0kXfzcsk&NR=1
Hail, Hail!!!
What if it's not greedy corps that are doing this though? What if it's the people that work for the School system or people that work for small businesses?
I think Healthcare needs to be available for everyone. There just needs to be a provision that a company cannot forcibly move you to the public option.
I haven't watched the link yet, and I'll be honest and say I haven't been following the debate currently going on about Health Care/Insurance.
Even though I know I should be, but alas, I'm to lazy (as I'm sure most people are) to really give a damn about the 'fine print' of the matter.
I will say this, since going down to part time at my job last year, I pay $132 a month for Health Insurance out of my pocket. When I was working full time, and had company offered insurance I was paying the same a month. BUT, with the company backed insurance I only had to pay a co-pay of $35 for each doctor visit.
But now? With my 'own' independent insurance I have a $10,000 dollar a year out of pocket expense. So from my understanding of it (I've yet to go to the doctor since switching) if I go to the doc, even just for a yearly physical, I have to pay for the whole doctor's fee out of pocket.
So, some would say, why do I even bother paying $132 a month in the first place?? I pay it because I want to make sure that in case something serious happens to me (AKA car accident, or some freak accident, I'm only 28) that I am covered.
So....in my long about, rambling thought here (I admit, I am a bit drunk) the point I am trying to make, is this. Health Insurance in this country is simply based off of one thing. And that is 'What are the odds that something catastrophic is going to happen to me?' And so I feel, to a certain extent that my monthly payment is a.....'hedge' bet, that sure most likely nothing will happen to me, but what if something does??
But, at the end of the day, I suppose that is what ALL insurance really is, a bet.
Hmmm..... I can't say I've really added anything important to this discussion, bottoms up!
Not necessarily. If a public options exists, the company is dropping cost and their employees will still have coverage. So, they are reducing the so-called "fixed" costs (which will become variable if a public option does exist) to help them remain competitive in a global economy and compete with countries with much lower wage rates.
It's not always about greed...it could be about reality.
I agree, but we will still throw more money at the problem. which won't help, just put us further into debt
sigh. I don't know what to tell you. profit leads to growth, growth leads to jobs. to say "they" don't care is irresponsible IMO. "they" are the ones who hire us, "they" are the ones who pay premiums now. "they" are not as evil as you make it sound and neither is profit.
that is so true it's unreal.
to believe for one second that your country isnt the 'best' at something is seen as un-american... its a very poor trait imo... and to be honest, all americans are un-american... as even the most dumb american of all time will surely know that they are not the 'best' at soccer.
there is a difference when talking about the "system" and quality of care. in terms of the system, there is no BEST system. every country is different and complex healthcare systems are going to work differently everywhere.
as for quality of care, America absolutely is the best in the world. we lead the world in innovation and research. and disagreeing doesnt make you "un-america", just ignorant to the reality.
no its not
World’s Best Health Care
Published: August 25, 2009
Critics of President Obama’s push for health care reform have been whipping up fear that proposed changes will destroy our “world’s best” medical system and make it like supposedly inferior systems elsewhere.
The emptiness of those claims became apparent recently when researchers from the Urban Institute released a report analyzing studies that have compared the clinical effectiveness and quality of care in the United States with the care dispensed in other advanced nations. They found a mixed bag, with the United States doing better in some areas, like cancer care, and worse in others, like preventing deaths from treatable and preventable conditions.
The bottom line was unmistakable. The analysts found no support for the claim routinely made by politicians that American health care is the best in the world and no hard evidence of any particular area in which American health care is truly exceptional.
The American health care system puts patients at greater risk of harm from medical or surgical errors than patients elsewhere and ranks behind the top countries in extending the lives of the elderly. It has a mixed record on preventive care — above average in vaccinating seniors against the flu, below average in vaccinating children — and a mixed record of caring for chronic and acute conditions.
Contrary to what one hears in political discourse, the bulk of the research comparing the United States and Canada found a higher quality of care in our northern neighbor. Canadians, for example, have longer survival times while undergoing renal dialysis and after a kidney transplant. Of 10 studies comparing the care given to a broad range of patients suffering from a diverse group of ailments, five favored Canada, three yielded mixed results, and only two favored the United States.
There is no doubt that American medicine at its best can be awesomely effective. But there is clearly room for improvement. Far from threatening a superb health care system, reform should be seen as a way to improve a system whose bright spots are undercut by its flaws.
no its not
Seven years ago, the World Health Organization made the first major effort to rank the health systems of 191 nations. France and Italy took the top two spots; the United States was a dismal 37th. More recently, the highly regarded Commonwealth Fund has pioneered in comparing the United States with other advanced nations through surveys of patients and doctors and analysis of other data. Its latest report, issued in May, ranked the United States last or next-to-last compared with five other nations — Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom — on most measures of performance, including quality of care and access to it. Other comparative studies also put the United States in a relatively bad light.
that was actually 9 years ago, alot has changed since then in terms of technology innovation and money spent on research....and it takes into account access, which is the major difference between the US and France/Italy.
no its not
Insurance coverage.
All other major industrialized nations provide universal health coverage, and most of them have comprehensive benefit packages with no cost-sharing by the patients. The United States, to its shame, has some 45 million people without health insurance and many more millions who have poor coverage. Although the president has blithely said that these people can always get treatment in an emergency room, many studies have shown that people without insurance postpone treatment until a minor illness becomes worse, harming their own health and imposing greater costs.
Access.
Citizens abroad often face long waits before they can get to see a specialist or undergo elective surgery. Americans typically get prompter attention, although Germany does better. The real barriers here are the costs facing low-income people without insurance or with skimpy coverage. But even Americans with above-average incomes find it more difficult than their counterparts abroad to get care on nights or weekends without going to an emergency room, and many report having to wait six days or more for an appointment with their own doctors.
Fairness.
The United States ranks dead last on almost all measures of equity because we have the greatest disparity in the quality of care given to richer and poorer citizens. Americans with below-average incomes are much less likely than their counterparts in other industrialized nations to see a doctor when sick, to fill prescriptions or to get needed tests and follow-up care.
Healthy lives.
We have known for years that America has a high infant mortality rate, so it is no surprise that we rank last among 23 nations by that yardstick. But the problem is much broader. We rank near the bottom in healthy life expectancy at age 60, and 15th among 19 countries in deaths from a wide range of illnesses that would not have been fatal if treated with timely and effective care. The good news is that we have done a better job than other industrialized nations in reducing smoking. The bad news is that our obesity epidemic is the worst in the world.
Quality.
In a comparison with five other countries, the Commonwealth Fund ranked the United States first in providing the “right care” for a given condition as defined by standard clinical guidelines and gave it especially high marks for preventive care, like Pap smears and mammograms to detect early-stage cancers, and blood tests and cholesterol checks for hypertensive patients. But we scored poorly in coordinating the care of chronically ill patients, in protecting the safety of patients, and in meeting their needs and preferences, which drove our overall quality rating down to last place. American doctors and hospitals kill patients through surgical and medical mistakes more often than their counterparts in other industrialized nations.
these are related to the "system". which I said isn't the best.
Americans are fat, thats not the fault of the healthcare system.
again, this is coming from a report almost a decade old? but it is nice to see the US ranked #1 providing the "right care"
from 2008 May report by the Commonwealth Fund
More than 40% of working age adults in the U.S. had difficulty paying medical bills or accumulated medical debt last year, compared with about 33% in 2005, according to a Commonwealth Fund study released Wednesday, the Washington Post reports. For the study, researchers analyzed data from the Commonwealth Fund Biennial Health Insurance Survey, conducted in 2001, 2003, 2005 and 2007. The survey found that about two-thirds of U.S. adults between ages 19 and 64 were uninsured, underinsured, reported a problem with a medical bill or did not get care due to high costs in 2007. The study also found:
* 39% of U.S. residents with growing medical bills used their savings, 30% incurred credit card debt and 29% said medical bills left them unable to pay for basic necessities such as food, heat or rent;
* 28% of working age adults had no insurance at some time during the previous year, up from 24% in 2001;
* 61% of people with difficulty paying medical bills or debt were insured at the time they received the treatment;
* 14% of adults in 2007 were insured but without adequate insurance, compared with 9% in 2003; and
* Among people with annual incomes below $20,000, 53% spent more than 10% of their income on health care, compared with 26% of this group in 2005.
The study also found that half of U.S. adults with incomes less than $20,000 were uninsured at some time last year, compared with 41% of those with annual incomes between $20,000 and $40,000 and 18% of those with incomes between $40,000 and $60,000.
Commonwealth Fund President Karen Davis said, "The U.S. stands out for being the only country ... that reports significant fractions of the population not getting needed care"
"right care" for a given condition... nice way to edit the text to prove your point.
you were LAST PLACE overall... because although the 'right care' is given for some preventative care, cancers, etc.... you were let down badly by other factors which result in you not having the 'best' system in the world... you simply do not... you might do if you have $21 million in the bank, but then thats not a fairly common bank account figure for the 40% of americans who simply cannot afford the most basic of medical cover.
please explain how "American doctors and hospitals kill patients through surgical and medical mistakes more often than their counterparts in other industrialized nations." means that your 'quality of care' is the best in the world... is dying because of a mistake a good thing over there?
again, I never said our system was the best. I said we lead the world in innovation and research. all the nice stats you posted have nothing to do with that.
can we move on?
did you watch the video?
i cant watch it just now as i dont have headphones... will check it out later.
That's making the assumption that the decision makers would be using the surplus in expenditures from cutting Health Care Insurance for their employees for economic growth for the company... and not massive pay increases for the ones who made the decision.
We don't really know, do we?
Hail, Hail!!!
I think its safe to say its a little of both.