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*** Berlin Fanviews Here 8/15/09 ***

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    I was at the Berlin gig with a non 10C ticket, bought a berlin stickerman t and a poster in a tube, walked down to maybe 10-15 row. I jumped, danced and did even get free beer, why even bother to get a 10c ticket when you are going to fight in the q, I could walked down to first row if i wanted that.
    I talked to fans from New Zeland, Italy, Spain and Norway amongs others and everybody was nice and liked the show. Peace man, we are all there for the same reason, its called PEARL JAM

    yes! peace for sure!..

    but I remember eddie talking: "please three steps back", "are the women ok?!", "take care every one near by you," and talking about an Italian fan who injured in a show three years ago; also remember Mike warning Eddie about problems in the front etc.
    maybe you did not hear those concerns from the band. but I am sure, all those concerns from band for a REASON.
    and I know why; that is what I am talking about!..
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    DegiDegi Posts: 1,007
    deepgreen wrote:

    yes! peace for sure!..

    but I remember eddie talking: "please three steps back", "are the women ok?!", "take care every one near by you," and talking about an Italian fan who injured in a show three years ago; also remember Mike warning Eddie about problems in the front etc.
    maybe you did not hear those concerns from the band. but I am sure, all those concerns from band for a REASON.
    and I know why; that is what I am talking about!..


    good, that you mention that (i havent read the whole thread, so forgive me if it has been said before, but:) i was totally amazed by that! since it were my first shows, i honestly didnt expected that!!! the 3 steps back thing was mentioned again in manchester, i think.... totally caring, and interacting with the crowd to make them feel better....
    COMPLIMENT!!!!!!!!!
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    WhyNotSwedenWhyNotSweden Sweden Posts: 4,251
    deepgreen wrote:
    yes! peace for sure!..

    but I remember eddie talking: "please three steps back", "are the women ok?!", "take care every one near by you," and talking about an Italian fan who injured in a show three years ago; also remember Mike warning Eddie about problems in the front etc.
    maybe you did not hear those concerns from the band. but I am sure, all those concerns from band for a REASON.
    and I know why; that is what I am talking about!..

    OK, I was talking about the struggel in the line OUTSIDE the venue, in the 10C ticket line.
    About the crowd inside, well its a rock consert, what to expect, its always like that (not on Pavarotti).The band dont want ROSKILDE to happen again and i dont think the crowd is pussing forward to hurt anyone. We where maybe 10-15 fans that dance 2m that way and 5m the other way, of course we pushed someone in the back, someone where crowd surfing and i think his boots hit someones head. People know that this is happening on conserts, if they dont get that, stay in the back or sit down.
    In copenhagen -07 they had "fence" to seperate left and rightside of the crowd, that was good. Wulhiede isnt that safe.
    -95, Stockholm (MirrorBall Tour)
    -00, Stockholm
    -07, Copenhagen
    -09, Berlin
    -10, Berlin
    -11, East Troy 1+2
    -12, Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen, EV London 2
    -13, London, Chicago
    -14, Amsterdam 1+2, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo
    -16, TOTD San Francisco 1+2
    -17, EV Amsterdam 2+3
    -18, Amsterdam 1+2, London 1+(2), Barcelona, London 2
    -19, EV Brussels

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    alesekalesek Posts: 809
    Would love to have recording of this show... (still hope to get the official bootleg but... ) till then, has anyone got at least an audience recording? pls?

    b/w found this... http://www.stream.cz/video/346280-pearl-jam-berlin-2009
    14/6/00 Prague 22/9/06 Prague 12/6/07 Munich 15/8/09 Berlin 22/06/10 Dublin 23/06/10 Belfast 30/06/10 Berlin 26/06/12 Amsterdam 02/07/12 Prague 04/07/12 Berlin 05/07/12 Berlin 07/07/12 Stockholm 09/07/12 Oslo 10/07/12 Copenhagen 25/6/14 Vienna 26/6/14 Berlin 1/7/18 Prague 3/7/18 Krakow 5/7/18 Berlin
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    deepgreen wrote:

    OK, I was talking about the struggel in the line OUTSIDE the venue, in the 10C ticket line.
    About the crowd inside, well its a rock consert, what to expect, its always like that (not on Pavarotti).The band dont want ROSKILDE to happen again and i dont think the crowd is pussing forward to hurt anyone. We where maybe 10-15 fans that dance 2m that way and 5m the other way, of course we pushed someone in the back, someone where crowd surfing and i think his boots hit someones head. People know that this is happening on conserts, if they dont get that, stay in the back or sit down.
    In copenhagen -07 they had "fence" to seperate left and rightside of the crowd, that was good. Wulhiede isnt that safe.

    thank you for reminding me that it was a rock concert:)
    But I have been also many other festival and individual rock concerts, so, this is why I was more surprised in this one...
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    dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPRO Posts: 139,151
    Degi wrote:
    deepgreen wrote:

    yes! peace for sure!..

    but I remember eddie talking: "please three steps back", "are the women ok?!", "take care every one near by you," and talking about an Italian fan who injured in a show three years ago; also remember Mike warning Eddie about problems in the front etc.
    maybe you did not hear those concerns from the band. but I am sure, all those concerns from band for a REASON.
    and I know why; that is what I am talking about!..


    good, that you mention that (i havent read the whole thread, so forgive me if it has been said before, but:) i was totally amazed by that! since it were my first shows, i honestly didnt expected that!!! the 3 steps back thing was mentioned again in manchester, i think.... totally caring, and interacting with the crowd to make them feel better....
    COMPLIMENT!!!!!!!!!
    in London was the 3 steps back
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
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    WhyNotSwedenWhyNotSweden Sweden Posts: 4,251
    in London was the 3 steps back

    Also Copenhagen -07
    -95, Stockholm (MirrorBall Tour)
    -00, Stockholm
    -07, Copenhagen
    -09, Berlin
    -10, Berlin
    -11, East Troy 1+2
    -12, Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen, EV London 2
    -13, London, Chicago
    -14, Amsterdam 1+2, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo
    -16, TOTD San Francisco 1+2
    -17, EV Amsterdam 2+3
    -18, Amsterdam 1+2, London 1+(2), Barcelona, London 2
    -19, EV Brussels

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    Brisk.Brisk. Posts: 11,486
    I was dead centre expierencing the crushing at its most full, the 3 steps thing was great for 2 seconds.. then it just all began again, and eddie then asked again if everyone was okay and quite a few people at the front made some negative gestures but dont think he really got it.

    But so great of the guys to do it.
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    TheSkyEtcTheSkyEtc Athens, GR Posts: 63
    Degi wrote:
    deepgreen wrote:

    yes! peace for sure!..

    but I remember eddie talking: "please three steps back", "are the women ok?!", "take care every one near by you," and talking about an Italian fan who injured in a show three years ago; also remember Mike warning Eddie about problems in the front etc.
    maybe you did not hear those concerns from the band. but I am sure, all those concerns from band for a REASON.
    and I know why; that is what I am talking about!..


    good, that you mention that (i havent read the whole thread, so forgive me if it has been said before, but:) i was totally amazed by that! since it were my first shows, i honestly didnt expected that!!! the 3 steps back thing was mentioned again in manchester, i think.... totally caring, and interacting with the crowd to make them feel better....
    COMPLIMENT!!!!!!!!!
    in London was the 3 steps back

    it was in Berlin..don't know for London but Berlin for sure
    A whisper through a megaphone
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    danleridanleri Posts: 497
    in London was the 3 steps back

    Also Copenhagen -07


    I was front row in Copenhagen '07, Mike's side, and the crowd was split by the rail in the middle... I don't remember Eddie calling for 3 steps back at all...
    Verona '00 | Dublin '06 | Barcelona '06 | London '07 | Copenhagen '07 | Berlin '09 | Dublin '10 | Belfast '10 | Berlin '10 | Toronto1 '11 | Toronto2 '11 | Amsterdam1 '12 | Stockholm '12 | Oslo '12 | Copenhagen '12 | Brooklyn1 '13 | Brooklyn2 '13 | Amsterdam1 '14 | Amsterdam2 '14 | Vienna '14 | Berlin '14
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    HinnHinn Posts: 1,517
    TheSkyEtc wrote:
    in London was the 3 steps back

    it was in Berlin..don't know for London but Berlin for sure
    Both.
    115 bucks for half a haircut by a novice? I want my money back!
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    danleridanleri Posts: 497
    Hinn wrote:
    TheSkyEtc wrote:
    in London was the 3 steps back

    it was in Berlin..don't know for London but Berlin for sure
    Both.


    Hinn, you've got the best signature ever :-) Helen's gas!
    Verona '00 | Dublin '06 | Barcelona '06 | London '07 | Copenhagen '07 | Berlin '09 | Dublin '10 | Belfast '10 | Berlin '10 | Toronto1 '11 | Toronto2 '11 | Amsterdam1 '12 | Stockholm '12 | Oslo '12 | Copenhagen '12 | Brooklyn1 '13 | Brooklyn2 '13 | Amsterdam1 '14 | Amsterdam2 '14 | Vienna '14 | Berlin '14
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    Spankensen wrote:
    Here's something for all fans of all nationalities...an interview with Eddie and Matt before the Berlin concert...enjoy :)

    p.s. click on pearl jam (in the rundown)...then on the right hand side (upper part) click on the caption below the picture to enjoy a 20 minute interview

    http://www.3sat.de/dynamic/sitegen/bin/ ... zeit&cx=94



    As always, long time between watching and responding:
    But hey… thanks indeed for posting!
    I really enjoyed the interview! :P
    Of course I missed it on telly but great to find it here!... so it is true, you get the related news over the Berlin thread... thanks.


    Did anyone else wonder and somehow smile about the German journalist?
    To me there were funny questions and sometimes funny faces of Ed and Matt…. But I wonder, again and again, why Germans always go back to the Grunge synonym and Nirvana when it comes to Pearl Jam!… so many questions are still focusing on this, still! :?: so to say.

    Don’t get the Germans in this matter and hardly ever, so what a funny coincident to be finally clued here…
    as a German.
    there is no way to peace, peace is the way!
    ...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.
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    dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPRO Posts: 139,151
    TheSkyEtc wrote:

    it was in Berlin..don't know for London but Berlin for sure
    Berlin and London
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Options
    dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPRO Posts: 139,151
    Spankensen wrote:
    Here's something for all fans of all nationalities...an interview with Eddie and Matt before the Berlin concert...enjoy :)

    p.s. click on pearl jam (in the rundown)...then on the right hand side (upper part) click on the caption below the picture to enjoy a 20 minute interview

    http://www.3sat.de/dynamic/sitegen/bin/ ... zeit&cx=94



    As always, long time between watching and responding:
    But hey… thanks indeed for posting!
    I really enjoyed the interview! :P
    Of course I missed it on telly but great to find it here!... so it is true, you get the related news over the Berlin thread... thanks.


    Did anyone else wonder and somehow smile about the German journalist?
    To me there were funny questions and sometimes funny faces of Ed and Matt…. But I wonder, again and again, why Germans always go back to the Grunge synonym and Nirvana when it comes to Pearl Jam!… so many questions are still focusing on this, still! :?: so to say.

    Don’t get the Germans in this matter and hardly ever, so what a funny coincident to be finally clued here…
    as a German.
    i was wondering the same..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Options
    danleridanleri Posts: 497
    ok I downloaded the unofficial FLAC of the Wuhlheide gig but finally the news is out... EU bootlegs coming soon and I can't wait for a proper recording of the gig!
    Verona '00 | Dublin '06 | Barcelona '06 | London '07 | Copenhagen '07 | Berlin '09 | Dublin '10 | Belfast '10 | Berlin '10 | Toronto1 '11 | Toronto2 '11 | Amsterdam1 '12 | Stockholm '12 | Oslo '12 | Copenhagen '12 | Brooklyn1 '13 | Brooklyn2 '13 | Amsterdam1 '14 | Amsterdam2 '14 | Vienna '14 | Berlin '14
  • Options
    Is there a chance to see the video of berlin concert?..
    Or only bootlegs?
    By the way, I do not want to believe that, they won't play in europe for "some time"!
    It is 20th year and it is after Backspacer...
  • Options
    dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPRO Posts: 139,151
    deepgreen wrote:
    Is there a chance to see the video of berlin concert?..
    Or only bootlegs?
    By the way, I do not want to believe that, they won't play in europe for "some time"!
    It is 20th year and it is after Backspacer...
    THEY WILL PLAY...IF NOT,,WE WILL TRAVEL WHEREVER...SOUTH AMERICA 2010 HERE I COME..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Options
    danleridanleri Posts: 497
    deepgreen wrote:
    Is there a chance to see the video of berlin concert?..
    Or only bootlegs?
    By the way, I do not want to believe that, they won't play in europe for "some time"!
    It is 20th year and it is after Backspacer...

    who said that? where did you read it?

    In Berlin Eddie said they were thinking about another EU tour next summer, and now with Backspacer out as well, I don't see why they shouldn't play EU for some time...
    Verona '00 | Dublin '06 | Barcelona '06 | London '07 | Copenhagen '07 | Berlin '09 | Dublin '10 | Belfast '10 | Berlin '10 | Toronto1 '11 | Toronto2 '11 | Amsterdam1 '12 | Stockholm '12 | Oslo '12 | Copenhagen '12 | Brooklyn1 '13 | Brooklyn2 '13 | Amsterdam1 '14 | Amsterdam2 '14 | Vienna '14 | Berlin '14
  • Options
    strummersstrummers Posts: 2,611
    danleri wrote:
    deepgreen wrote:
    Is there a chance to see the video of berlin concert?..
    Or only bootlegs?
    By the way, I do not want to believe that, they won't play in europe for "some time"!
    It is 20th year and it is after Backspacer...

    who said that? where did you read it?

    In Berlin Eddie said they were thinking about another EU tour next summer, and now with Backspacer out as well, I don't see why they shouldn't play EU for some time...

    From what I remember, I think he said something along those lines in both Manchester and London. Can't remember the exact words he used though. London was something like 'we won't/may not be back for a while'.

    :(

    Then again, you never can tell - I never thought they'd come over here for only 4 dates!
    http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
    http://www.strummersphotography.com

    <object width="360" height="300"><param name="movie" value="http://www.redbubble.com/swf/redbubble.swf"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><PARAM NAME=FlashVars VALUE="url=http://www.redbubble.com/people/strummers/works/visual.atom?campaign=sales_widget&mode=slideshow"><embed src="http://www.redbubble.com/swf/redbubble.swf&quot; FlashVars="url=http://www.redbubble.com/people/strummers/works/visual.atom?campaign=sales_widget&mode=slideshow&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="360" height="300"></embed></object>
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    JordyWordyJordyWordy Posts: 2,257
    strummers wrote:
    From what I remember, I think he said something along those lines in both Manchester and London. Can't remember the exact words he used though. London was something like 'we won't/may not be back for a while'.

    :(

    Then again, you never can tell - I never thought they'd come over here for only 4 dates!

    That's weird, what he said in Berlin was that they were deciding where the best crowds were, and that was making their decision on where to play next. (this was after the crowd had been making the "oooohh" soccer chant & hand-shimmering thingy throughout the encore break). it was pretty cool.

    Ah well, Eddie will bullshit you if you give him half a chance! 8-) He also promised us boots at the Euro 07 shows!
  • Options
    dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPRO Posts: 139,151
    strummers wrote:
    danleri wrote:
    deepgreen wrote:
    Is there a chance to see the video of berlin concert?..
    Or only bootlegs?
    By the way, I do not want to believe that, they won't play in europe for "some time"!
    It is 20th year and it is after Backspacer...

    who said that? where did you read it?

    In Berlin Eddie said they were thinking about another EU tour next summer, and now with Backspacer out as well, I don't see why they shouldn't play EU for some time...

    From what I remember, I think he said something along those lines in both Manchester and London. Can't remember the exact words he used though. London was something like 'we won't/may not be back for a while'.

    :(

    Then again, you never can tell - I never thought they'd come over here for only 4 dates!
    in Rotterdam said about a year maybe a year and a half and in Berlin he says to the crowd thank u that with your responce is more easy to chooose which citys will be in tour next year...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Options
    strummersstrummers Posts: 2,611
    JordyWordy wrote:
    strummers wrote:
    From what I remember, I think he said something along those lines in both Manchester and London. Can't remember the exact words he used though. London was something like 'we won't/may not be back for a while'.

    :(

    Then again, you never can tell - I never thought they'd come over here for only 4 dates!

    That's weird, what he said in Berlin was that they were deciding where the best crowds were, and that was making their decision on where to play next. (this was after the crowd had been making the "oooohh" soccer chant & hand-shimmering thingy throughout the encore break). it was pretty cool.

    Ah well, Eddie will bullshit you if you give him half a chance! 8-) He also promised us boots at the Euro 07 shows!

    Yep, Eddie was contradicting himslef left, right and centre! :lol:
    Maybe he meant they would be back in Europe, but not the UK. Who knows!?!

    Ah, the '07 boots! :cry:
    http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
    http://www.strummersphotography.com

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  • Options
    danleri wrote:
    deepgreen wrote:
    Is there a chance to see the video of berlin concert?..
    Or only bootlegs?
    By the way, I do not want to believe that, they won't play in europe for "some time"!
    It is 20th year and it is after Backspacer...

    who said that? where did you read it?

    In Berlin Eddie said they were thinking about another EU tour next summer, and now with Backspacer out as well, I don't see why they shouldn't play EU for some time...

    eddie said that in UK.
    "we will not be on europe for some time", he said to the crowd,
    people replied: "why go home", and he smiled.
  • Options
    as this post gave me already so many good news, I hope someone here might answer my question:

    In Berlin PJ played a song called "Brother".
    Back then I assumed it would be another new song of Backspacer. But as I learned now, this song is NOT on the new album, but I haven't heard it before....

    so does anyone know what song it is or where it belongs to? Is it a B-side or a cover?
    I really liked the song, and usually I know nearly every song by PJ, so thanks already for helping me out in this matter.

    cheers
    n.
    there is no way to peace, peace is the way!
    ...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.
  • Options
    JordyWordyJordyWordy Posts: 2,257
    In Berlin PJ played a song called "Brother".
    Back then I assumed it would be another new song of Backspacer. But as I learned now, this song is NOT on the new album, but I haven't heard it before....

    so does anyone know what song it is or where it belongs to? Is it a B-side or a cover?
    I really liked the song, and usually I know nearly every song by PJ, so thanks already for helping me out in this matter.

    It was a B-Side from Ten, it was played once or twice in 1991, and then never again.
    there was a version with no vocals on Lost Dogs, Mike played guitar solos over it, its very cool.
    And for the Ten Redux/Re-issue earlier this year, Brother (with vocals) was released as the single.

    Guitarist Mike McCready on the song:
    "I remember Jeff really loving it and Stone either not liking it or being indifferent about it. Jeff and Stone were arguing a lot about this song and were kind of mad at each other. Jeff got so pissed he went off and started dunking basketballs. It was like, "What's up, dude?" He got really pissed. He related this story to me recently. It was the typical Stone goes one way/Jeff goes the other. That is just how they work. They have been together forever and the dynamic between the two of them makes things work. There was a big, heated argument. But I thought it was a cool song with a cool vibe. It may have been an example of mid-tempo-itis. I recall the big argument between the two. Jeff said it was almost like he was going to quit. It was serious shit."

    Ament on the song:
    "I was really, really into that song. Stone wrote that song musically. There was a point during the recording of Ten that Stone was like, "Eh, I'm over it." And I was like, "No! Let's work on it." We actually got in a big fight about it in the studio. It didn't end up getting worked on anymore. It got to a point and Stone was over it. I think maybe to some degree Ed probably wasn't totally happy with where it was at, so it never came out. I think there's great guitar on that song."
  • Options
    It was a B-Side from Ten, it was played once or twice in 1991, and then never again.
    there was a version with no vocals on Lost Dogs, Mike played guitar solos over it, its very cool.
    And for the Ten Redux/Re-issue earlier this year, Brother (with vocals) was released as the single.

    Guitarist Mike McCready on the song:
    "I remember Jeff really loving it and Stone either not liking it or being indifferent about it. Jeff and Stone were arguing a lot about this song and were kind of mad at each other. Jeff got so pissed he went off and started dunking basketballs. It was like, "What's up, dude?" He got really pissed. He related this story to me recently. It was the typical Stone goes one way/Jeff goes the other. That is just how they work. They have been together forever and the dynamic between the two of them makes things work. There was a big, heated argument. But I thought it was a cool song with a cool vibe. It may have been an example of mid-tempo-itis. I recall the big argument between the two. Jeff said it was almost like he was going to quit. It was serious shit."

    Ament on the song:
    "I was really, really into that song. Stone wrote that song musically. There was a point during the recording of Ten that Stone was like, "Eh, I'm over it." And I was like, "No! Let's work on it." We actually got in a big fight about it in the studio. It didn't end up getting worked on anymore. It got to a point and Stone was over it. I think maybe to some degree Ed probably wasn't totally happy with where it was at, so it never came out. I think there's great guitar on that song."[/quote]


    That is very nice, Jordy Wordy :P
    what a great answer to my question you gave, thank you very very much.
    and what a nice story, too.
    I really was curious, could not find the link and did not recognize Brother on lost dogs although I really like lost dogs and thought I would know it very well....

    ....mhmm, now I know more,
    and especially that I do not know every "published" song by PJ... funny.
    but back of ten I was too young for B-sides :?

    so thanks again big times!
    there is no way to peace, peace is the way!
    ...the world is come undone, I like to change it everyday but change don't come at once, it's a wave, building before it breaks.
  • Options
    dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam NINUNINOPRO Posts: 139,151
    deepgreen wrote:
    danleri wrote:
    deepgreen wrote:
    Is there a chance to see the video of berlin concert?..
    Or only bootlegs?
    By the way, I do not want to believe that, they won't play in europe for "some time"!
    It is 20th year and it is after Backspacer...

    who said that? where did you read it?

    In Berlin Eddie said they were thinking about another EU tour next summer, and now with Backspacer out as well, I don't see why they shouldn't play EU for some time...

    eddie said that in UK.
    "we will not be on europe for some time", he said to the crowd,
    people replied: "why go home", and he smiled.
    we say the same..why go home if pearl jam are still out and play!!!!!!!!
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Options
    JordyWordyJordyWordy Posts: 2,257
    That is very nice, Jordy Wordy :P
    what a great answer to my question you gave, thank you very very much.
    and what a nice story, too.
    I really was curious, could not find the link and did not recognize Brother on lost dogs although I really like lost dogs and thought I would know it very well....

    ....mhmm, now I know more,
    and especially that I do not know every "published" song by PJ... funny.
    but back of ten I was too young for B-sides :?

    so thanks again big times!

    No problem! It's a great song too, happy to help :)
  • Options
    Anyone got videos of WHY GO from Berlin they would like to share? (actual videoclips, not youtube links)

    I would like to cut it into a montage of me and my friends vaccation in Berlin.

    ANyone? :)
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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