even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
Well most people earning tips have pretty much zero benefits, so that is a big factor IMO. But also, we subsidize pay either way. Most people who earn tips make minimum wage, but work hard enough to deserve more than that if they are doing their job well, and that is what's good about tipping. Sure, businesses could pay them all more and add the extra costs to the price charged to customers, but that doesn't encourage the workers to do their best. Tips are incentive to do a really good job, because if they don't do a good job they don't get tipped, or not as well, and it is left up to the customer to judge if they did a good job or not, which makes sense to me, as they are the only ones qualified to judge on a case-by-case basis.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
I read this entire post in my head like it was being said by Data from Star Trek The Next Generation.
"tipping is, by all definition, sir, illogical, and entirely a human function with no practical basis in our modern world"
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
In some states wait staff make minimum wage, but in others they make about half of it and the tips are supposed to make up the rest.
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F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,625
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
Well most people earning tips have pretty much zero benefits, so that is a big factor IMO. But also, we subsidize pay either way. Most people who earn tips make minimum wage, but work hard enough to deserve more than that if they are doing their job well, and that is what's good about tipping. Sure, businesses could pay them all more and add the extra costs to the price charged to customers, but that doesn't encourage the workers to do their best. Tips are incentive to do a really good job, because if they don't do a good job they don't get tipped, or not as well, and it is left up to the customer to judge if they did a good job or not, which makes sense to me, as they are the only ones qualified to judge on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, there is that end to it. but why only the service industry gets tips? there is a whole boatload of industries where people make peanuts and have no benefits and don't get tips.
my guess is, since historically most servers were women, that it had more to do with it being a practice among pig men hitting on hot waitresses by giving them money and probably a smack on the ass.
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
Well most people earning tips have pretty much zero benefits, so that is a big factor IMO. But also, we subsidize pay either way. Most people who earn tips make minimum wage, but work hard enough to deserve more than that if they are doing their job well, and that is what's good about tipping. Sure, businesses could pay them all more and add the extra costs to the price charged to customers, but that doesn't encourage the workers to do their best. Tips are incentive to do a really good job, because if they don't do a good job they don't get tipped, or not as well, and it is left up to the customer to judge if they did a good job or not, which makes sense to me, as they are the only ones qualified to judge on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, there is that end to it. but why only the service industry gets tips? there is a whole boatload of industries where people make peanuts and have no benefits and don't get tips.
my guess is, since historically most servers were women, that it had more to do with it being a practice among pig men hitting on hot waitresses by giving them money and probably a smack on the ass.
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
Well most people earning tips have pretty much zero benefits, so that is a big factor IMO. But also, we subsidize pay either way. Most people who earn tips make minimum wage, but work hard enough to deserve more than that if they are doing their job well, and that is what's good about tipping. Sure, businesses could pay them all more and add the extra costs to the price charged to customers, but that doesn't encourage the workers to do their best. Tips are incentive to do a really good job, because if they don't do a good job they don't get tipped, or not as well, and it is left up to the customer to judge if they did a good job or not, which makes sense to me, as they are the only ones qualified to judge on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, there is that end to it. but why only the service industry gets tips? there is a whole boatload of industries where people make peanuts and have no benefits and don't get tips.
my guess is, since historically most servers were women, that it had more to do with it being a practice among pig men hitting on hot waitresses by giving them money and probably a smack on the ass.
Yeah, maybe that history has a lot to do with it. But I also think it's just because it's one of the only industries where the workers are literally serving their customers for an extended period of time, which therefore makes the customers much more able to judge the quality of service, given that such a judgement doesn't require any special knowledge of the work being done. Tips are based on the customers' immediate emotions/happiness rather than on some kind of quantifiable service at the time it's performed, as opposed to work done in the trades or the financial sector or something.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
Well most people earning tips have pretty much zero benefits, so that is a big factor IMO. But also, we subsidize pay either way. Most people who earn tips make minimum wage, but work hard enough to deserve more than that if they are doing their job well, and that is what's good about tipping. Sure, businesses could pay them all more and add the extra costs to the price charged to customers, but that doesn't encourage the workers to do their best. Tips are incentive to do a really good job, because if they don't do a good job they don't get tipped, or not as well, and it is left up to the customer to judge if they did a good job or not, which makes sense to me, as they are the only ones qualified to judge on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, there is that end to it. but why only the service industry gets tips? there is a whole boatload of industries where people make peanuts and have no benefits and don't get tips.
my guess is, since historically most servers were women, that it had more to do with it being a practice among pig men hitting on hot waitresses by giving them money and probably a smack on the ass.
Yeah, maybe that history has a lot to do with it. But I also think it's just because it's one of the only industries where the workers are literally serving their customers for an extended period of time, which therefore makes the customers much more able to judge the quality of service, given that such a judgement doesn't require any special knowledge of the work being done. Tips are based on the customers' immediate emotions/happiness rather than on some kind of quantifiable service at the time it's performed, as opposed to work done in the trades or the financial sector or something.
unfortunately, as we agreed on earlier, the "quality of service" shouldn't be judged by the server alone. but most times it is. so the quantifiable service isn't actually based on something entirely they are aware of.
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
Well most people earning tips have pretty much zero benefits, so that is a big factor IMO. But also, we subsidize pay either way. Most people who earn tips make minimum wage, but work hard enough to deserve more than that if they are doing their job well, and that is what's good about tipping. Sure, businesses could pay them all more and add the extra costs to the price charged to customers, but that doesn't encourage the workers to do their best. Tips are incentive to do a really good job, because if they don't do a good job they don't get tipped, or not as well, and it is left up to the customer to judge if they did a good job or not, which makes sense to me, as they are the only ones qualified to judge on a case-by-case basis.
Yes, there is that end to it. but why only the service industry gets tips? there is a whole boatload of industries where people make peanuts and have no benefits and don't get tips.
my guess is, since historically most servers were women, that it had more to do with it being a practice among pig men hitting on hot waitresses by giving them money and probably a smack on the ass.
Yeah, maybe that history has a lot to do with it. But I also think it's just because it's one of the only industries where the workers are literally serving their customers for an extended period of time, which therefore makes the customers much more able to judge the quality of service, given that such a judgement doesn't require any special knowledge of the work being done. Tips are based on the customers' immediate emotions/happiness rather than on some kind of quantifiable service at the time it's performed, as opposed to work done in the trades or the financial sector or something.
unfortunately, as we agreed on earlier, the "quality of service" shouldn't be judged by the server alone. but most times it is. so the quantifiable service isn't actually based on something entirely they are aware of.
I'm not sure I know what you mean. The quality of service is judged by the customer alone, not the server.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
I actually completely agree, and thought of it the same way. You want to pay your employee yes and make your customer make up the difference. There is no rhyme or reason which people get tipped. You tip a server or bartender, but not the guy who does your oil change. I also have the same feeling about tipped jobs as HFD said about gas station workers making $15. It takes away the incentive to improve and seek better opportunities when you can wait tables and make $300 a night.I guess much of the time you don;t need better opportunities at that pay. I've never been a waiter, but I will say it does look like a lot of work. Always running back and forth, trying to get food and drinks as fast as possible But it doesn't look any more difficult than the hundreds of manual labor jobs that make minimum wage and no tips. Tipping is not about expressing gratitude for a job well done anymore (although they still call it gratuity), it is expected and often mandatory and more and more common even factored into the bill. I hate when I get crappy service, and the bill comes with an automatic 20% added in. If it really is about good service, why not tip your doctor who makes you feel extra special, or your kid's teacher when they help your kid get than A, or the receptionist who squeezed you in at a last mine appointment?
There is no way in hell a higher minimum wage will lead to fewer people moving up the ladder. That just isn't how human nature works, nor is it how economics work. I think that the idea of underpaying people because it nudges them towards doing better for themselves is pure fantasy.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
even when I'm at full serve, which I pretty much always am (co op membership), I still get out and pump my own gas and tell the attendant to take a load off. they always look at me like I'm an alien.
Do people still tip gas station attendants (I know I tip the guy who fills my propane tank)? Maybe that is why they look at you sideways.... you're robbing them of a potential tip.
Waiters/waitresses and barbers are the only people I tip
I don't go crazy tipping - like, fuck off with those tip jars by the register in coffee shops and retail stores, lol. But, besides servers, bartenders, and my hair stylist, I also tip anyone who does manual labour for me specifically. I.e. mattress and furniture delivery men, movers, and the guy who lugs my propane tanks around. Also people who I rely on to keep my stuff safe, i.e. coat check attendants. They really will take better care of my stuff if I tip them a little bit. And valets of course - I am car free, but I'll tip on behalf of my car driving friends. And if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford maid service, I'd certainly tip them.
I don’t fully understand tipping. I receive a salary (fixed compensation per time period with core expectations), and I have a bonus structure based on set measurements of excellence, which my employer incurs. Even a production job (again, fixed compensation per time period with core expectations) can have a measure of excellence, and I don’t know why a client has to incur what’s essentially a variable priced product due to them providing a bonus on behalf of an employer. That is asking your customer to subsidize your employee’s pay, which I just can’t wrap my head around. I wish that entire culture was gone, as I feel it would increase fair pay from employers, and would increase accountability and communications between production workers and their direct reports.
I actually completely agree, and thought of it the same way. You want to pay your employee yes and make your customer make up the difference. There is no rhyme or reason which people get tipped. You tip a server or bartender, but not the guy who does your oil change. I also have the same feeling about tipped jobs as HFD said about gas station workers making $15. It takes away the incentive to improve and seek better opportunities when you can wait tables and make $300 a night.I guess much of the time you don;t need better opportunities at that pay. I've never been a waiter, but I will say it does look like a lot of work. Always running back and forth, trying to get food and drinks as fast as possible But it doesn't look any more difficult than the hundreds of manual labor jobs that make minimum wage and no tips. Tipping is not about expressing gratitude for a job well done anymore (although they still call it gratuity), it is expected and often mandatory and more and more common even factored into the bill. I hate when I get crappy service, and the bill comes with an automatic 20% added in. If it really is about good service, why not tip your doctor who makes you feel extra special, or your kid's teacher when they help your kid get than A, or the receptionist who squeezed you in at a last mine appointment?
That’s exactly it. If I owned a business in the service industry that partook in tipping, I would solicit feedback from my customers on my employee’s level of service. An average rating of X puts you in a safe zone, below it puts you on a performance improvement plan, and above it is bonus territory. In this way, it’s my employee’s incentive to do their best, and our customers’ impartial guidance to drive that bonus.
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Can't you just judge it by seeing how much they get in tips? All tips are reported, so it should be pretty clear. Tips definitely reflect the quality of service of pretty well, generally. And if a server worked his or her ass off on a table and didn't get tipped anyway because the customers are assholes, that is something the entire staff finds out about immediately. Not that I'm against customer feedback cards, but the problem with those is that the huge majority of them are only completed when the customers have a problem, not when the service is very good, and those problems are often related to things that have nothing to do with the quality of the job done by their server. Plus the majority of customers just don't feel like giving feedback because they are too lazy. I think tips are actually a more reliable gauge than customer feedback cards are.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I'm not saying we should underpay them to nudge them up. I also wouldn't call it underpaying people either. Not every person in every city needs to make $15. But do you really think if someone is pumping gas for $15/hr, that they would quit, go to a trade school to become a plumber to make the same $15/hr ? Some will of course, but I can't believe you woudln't see a huge drop in jobs like that. There's probably already a minimum wage thread, but no skill jobs filled by high school or even many college kids just don't need $15/hr. They have a roof over their head, they have food, they aren't the primary source of income. In my mind that is the target of a no skill job, and therefore is appropriate at $8/hr. I would much rather provide opportunities for those who are the primary income to gain skills to get better jobs than to just pay everyone a lot more for no-skill labor.
I know, again, I don't think $15 should be the minimum wage everywhere. Minimum wage should be directly related to the cost of living in the state or province in which the people are getting paid. There should be some kind of calculation that is used by every region to determine a fair minimum wage, based on average prices of housing, the rate of inflation, etc (and perhaps with some kind of means to make it even higher in the cases of specific cities where cost of living is out of control compared to the rest of the province/state).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,722
I know, again, I don't think $15 should be the minimum wage everywhere. Minimum wage should be directly related to the cost of living in the state or province in which the people are getting paid.There should be some kind of calculation that is used by every region to determine a fair minimum wage, based on average prices of housing, the rate of inflation, etc (and perhaps with some kind of means to make it even higher in the cases of specific cities where cost of living is out of control compared to the rest of the province/state).
Exactly. Good common sense.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Can't you just judge it by seeing how much they get in tips? All tips are reported, so it should be pretty clear. Tips definitely reflect the quality of service of pretty well, generally. And if a server worked his or her ass off on a table and didn't get tipped anyway because the customers are assholes, that is something the entire staff finds out about immediately. Not that I'm against customer feedback cards, but the problem with those is that the huge majority of them are only completed when the customers have a problem, not when the service is very good, and those problems are often related to things that have nothing to do with the quality of the job done by their server. Plus the majority of customers just don't feel like giving feedback because they are too lazy. I think tips are actually a more reliable gauge than customer feedback cards are.
Sorry PJSoul, maybe I didn’t express my premise properly. I’m stating that I feel that the impetus should be on the employer rather than the customer to reward an employee’s excellence. If gauging excellence is the concern, that’s where I felt that feedback would be necessary.
Nothing is certain, but I have a feeling that a restaurant which tells its patrons that it provides bonuses for its staff based on customers’ feedback so that customers don’t have to, will get the twelve second (and honesty) investment out of their patrons. The incentive to the customer is very clear - they no longer have to pay a tip, and get to help the growth and development and fair compensation of the restaurant’s team.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Always thought that law was stupid. Have family in Oregon and I feel like such a waste of time. If you go at off hours there might only be 1 person working the store who has to run in to work the cash register, back out to pump, help other customers. I've waited over 10 minutes to just get the pump started before. You go at busy times they might have more employees, but then there's a line of people waiting. I've almost never found it convenient. And for those who lived in OR their whole life and don't know how to do it, I would imagine every gas station will have a full service option for years to come. I remember most gas stations in California had a full service lane until the mid 90's they faded out when no one used them.
I suppose it sepends on location and time of day, but I’ve rarely had to wait over a minute for the attendant.
I lived in Oregon for 10 years and never had to wait 10 minutes. A minute or under always.
Can't you just judge it by seeing how much they get in tips? All tips are reported, so it should be pretty clear. Tips definitely reflect the quality of service of pretty well, generally. And if a server worked his or her ass off on a table and didn't get tipped anyway because the customers are assholes, that is something the entire staff finds out about immediately. Not that I'm against customer feedback cards, but the problem with those is that the huge majority of them are only completed when the customers have a problem, not when the service is very good, and those problems are often related to things that have nothing to do with the quality of the job done by their server. Plus the majority of customers just don't feel like giving feedback because they are too lazy. I think tips are actually a more reliable gauge than customer feedback cards are.
Sorry PJSoul, maybe I didn’t express my premise properly. I’m stating that I feel that the impetus should be on the employer rather than the customer to reward an employee’s excellence. If gauging excellence is the concern, that’s where I felt that feedback would be necessary.
Nothing is certain, but I have a feeling that a restaurant which tells its patrons that it provides bonuses for its staff based on customers’ feedback so that customers don’t have to, will get the twelve second (and honesty) investment out of their patrons. The incentive to the customer is very clear - they no longer have to pay a tip, and get to help the growth and development and fair compensation of the restaurant’s team.
Ah, now I understand.... Fair enough, but those bonuses would still be paid by the customers, since the cost of the bonuses would end up on the menu. Nobody is going to save money either way... But I think with the structure you are suggesting would result in a lot of servers getting less money, since bonuses are completely up to the owner/managers, and we all know the majority of them are not going to go out of their way to really fairly spread their profits around. Tips largely eliminate the impact of the greed or personal favourtism/spitefulness of management, which is a major argument for tipping.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Can't you just judge it by seeing how much they get in tips? All tips are reported, so it should be pretty clear. Tips definitely reflect the quality of service of pretty well, generally. And if a server worked his or her ass off on a table and didn't get tipped anyway because the customers are assholes, that is something the entire staff finds out about immediately. Not that I'm against customer feedback cards, but the problem with those is that the huge majority of them are only completed when the customers have a problem, not when the service is very good, and those problems are often related to things that have nothing to do with the quality of the job done by their server. Plus the majority of customers just don't feel like giving feedback because they are too lazy. I think tips are actually a more reliable gauge than customer feedback cards are.
guaranteed the prettier one gets more tips with equal amount of work or less.
Can't you just judge it by seeing how much they get in tips? All tips are reported, so it should be pretty clear. Tips definitely reflect the quality of service of pretty well, generally. And if a server worked his or her ass off on a table and didn't get tipped anyway because the customers are assholes, that is something the entire staff finds out about immediately. Not that I'm against customer feedback cards, but the problem with those is that the huge majority of them are only completed when the customers have a problem, not when the service is very good, and those problems are often related to things that have nothing to do with the quality of the job done by their server. Plus the majority of customers just don't feel like giving feedback because they are too lazy. I think tips are actually a more reliable gauge than customer feedback cards are.
guaranteed the prettier one gets more tips with equal amount of work or less.
not that I am for feedback cards at all.
Well, that is true for some establishments, but not for others. But shit, attractiveness gives people an advantage in all industries. Attractive people also tend to get bigger bonuses, faster promotions, etc. Sick but true.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Can't you just judge it by seeing how much they get in tips? All tips are reported, so it should be pretty clear. Tips definitely reflect the quality of service of pretty well, generally. And if a server worked his or her ass off on a table and didn't get tipped anyway because the customers are assholes, that is something the entire staff finds out about immediately. Not that I'm against customer feedback cards, but the problem with those is that the huge majority of them are only completed when the customers have a problem, not when the service is very good, and those problems are often related to things that have nothing to do with the quality of the job done by their server. Plus the majority of customers just don't feel like giving feedback because they are too lazy. I think tips are actually a more reliable gauge than customer feedback cards are.
Sorry PJSoul, maybe I didn’t express my premise properly. I’m stating that I feel that the impetus should be on the employer rather than the customer to reward an employee’s excellence. If gauging excellence is the concern, that’s where I felt that feedback would be necessary.
Nothing is certain, but I have a feeling that a restaurant which tells its patrons that it provides bonuses for its staff based on customers’ feedback so that customers don’t have to, will get the twelve second (and honesty) investment out of their patrons. The incentive to the customer is very clear - they no longer have to pay a tip, and get to help the growth and development and fair compensation of the restaurant’s team.
Ah, now I understand.... Fair enough, but those bonuses would still be paid by the customers, since the cost of the bonuses would end up on the menu. Nobody is going to save money either way... But I think with the structure you are suggesting would result in a lot of servers getting less money, since bonuses are completely up to the owner/managers, and we all know the majority of them are not going to go out of their way to really fairly spread their profits around. Tips largely eliminate the impact of the greed or personal favourtism/spitefulness of management, which is a major argument for tipping.
I’m not talking about saving money; ultimately management bake their costs into their product or service prices anyways. At least this way, every customer pays the same amount for products and services without variability. Maybe it’s more difficult for me since what our business sells is cameras, but I don’t like the idea of my customers paying different amounts for the same product.
As for the favouritism argument, a good bonus program will treat all within a role impartially as it is results-driven.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Can't you just judge it by seeing how much they get in tips? All tips are reported, so it should be pretty clear. Tips definitely reflect the quality of service of pretty well, generally. And if a server worked his or her ass off on a table and didn't get tipped anyway because the customers are assholes, that is something the entire staff finds out about immediately. Not that I'm against customer feedback cards, but the problem with those is that the huge majority of them are only completed when the customers have a problem, not when the service is very good, and those problems are often related to things that have nothing to do with the quality of the job done by their server. Plus the majority of customers just don't feel like giving feedback because they are too lazy. I think tips are actually a more reliable gauge than customer feedback cards are.
Sorry PJSoul, maybe I didn’t express my premise properly. I’m stating that I feel that the impetus should be on the employer rather than the customer to reward an employee’s excellence. If gauging excellence is the concern, that’s where I felt that feedback would be necessary.
Nothing is certain, but I have a feeling that a restaurant which tells its patrons that it provides bonuses for its staff based on customers’ feedback so that customers don’t have to, will get the twelve second (and honesty) investment out of their patrons. The incentive to the customer is very clear - they no longer have to pay a tip, and get to help the growth and development and fair compensation of the restaurant’s team.
Ah, now I understand.... Fair enough, but those bonuses would still be paid by the customers, since the cost of the bonuses would end up on the menu. Nobody is going to save money either way... But I think with the structure you are suggesting would result in a lot of servers getting less money, since bonuses are completely up to the owner/managers, and we all know the majority of them are not going to go out of their way to really fairly spread their profits around. Tips largely eliminate the impact of the greed or personal favourtism/spitefulness of management, which is a major argument for tipping.
I’m not talking about saving money; ultimately management bake their costs into their product or service prices anyways. At least this way, every customer pays the same amount for products and services without variability. Maybe it’s more difficult for me since what our business sells is cameras, but I don’t like the idea of my customers paying different amounts for the same product.
As for the favouritism argument, a good bonus program will treat all within a role impartially as it is results-driven.
Oh, yeah, this doesn't work for retail. Haha, perhaps you have never worked in the hospitality industry? There is no way in hell that favourtism wouldn't be a major factor in a bonus system in so many restaurants. Unless the system was 100% regulated by law, it would be badly abused by many. I guess I don't think that customers should be paying for service in restaurants without variability. Because that really isn't fair if your server sucks and your dining experience isn't very good because of it, while the people across the room have great server and enjoyed their time way more. Those people should pay more because they got more. I really don't think that a bonus system would curb bad service at all FWIW, as someone who worked in the industry for about 8 years.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Always thought that law was stupid. Have family in Oregon and I feel like such a waste of time. If you go at off hours there might only be 1 person working the store who has to run in to work the cash register, back out to pump, help other customers. I've waited over 10 minutes to just get the pump started before. You go at busy times they might have more employees, but then there's a line of people waiting. I've almost never found it convenient. And for those who lived in OR their whole life and don't know how to do it, I would imagine every gas station will have a full service option for years to come. I remember most gas stations in California had a full service lane until the mid 90's they faded out when no one used them.
I suppose it sepends on location and time of day, but I’ve rarely had to wait over a minute for the attendant.
I lived in Oregon for 10 years and never had to wait 10 minutes. A minute or under always.
Last time I was there a few months ago I stopped at a gas station with 1 employee who had to do everything. It was about 10-15 minutes. It was in Trail, a small fishing town. You probably wouldn't wait 10 minutes in a big city. But when you have 1 employee trying to service 5 customers who aren't legally allowed to serve the self, it took over 10 minutes
Always thought that law was stupid. Have family in Oregon and I feel like such a waste of time. If you go at off hours there might only be 1 person working the store who has to run in to work the cash register, back out to pump, help other customers. I've waited over 10 minutes to just get the pump started before. You go at busy times they might have more employees, but then there's a line of people waiting. I've almost never found it convenient. And for those who lived in OR their whole life and don't know how to do it, I would imagine every gas station will have a full service option for years to come. I remember most gas stations in California had a full service lane until the mid 90's they faded out when no one used them.
I suppose it sepends on location and time of day, but I’ve rarely had to wait over a minute for the attendant.
I lived in Oregon for 10 years and never had to wait 10 minutes. A minute or under always.
Last time I was there a few months ago I stopped at a gas station with 1 employee who had to do everything. It was about 10-15 minutes. It was in Trail, a small fishing town. You probably wouldn't wait 10 minutes in a big city. But when you have 1 employee trying to service 5 customers who aren't legally allowed to serve the self, it took over 10 minutes
I've lived in new jersey my whole life and never waited for more than a minute for someone to pump my gas.
Way off topic here but after reading through this thread it really serves as a great example of how most rational, liberal minded people truly do believe in many core capitalist concepts even if they do have ideas on implementing some socialistic regulations on those core capitalist concepts. Some of these posts would serve as great deterrents to those that like to call us commies and what-not.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,722
Way off topic here but after reading through this thread it really serves as a great example of how most rational, liberal minded people truly do believe in many core capitalist concepts even if they do have ideas on implementing some socialistic regulations on those core capitalist concepts. Some of these posts would serve as great deterrents to those that like to call us commies and what-not.
Interesting observation, RiotZact. Yeah, most of the people who identify themselves as "liberal" are definitely capitalists. Some of the most famous liberals are super duper capitalists. And some folks are just simple scraping-by capitalists (booksellers and haberdashery shop owners, for example) without much choice in the economic ideological matter who appreciate some of the concepts of capitalism. But who can really live that way in places like the U.S.? Good luck with that! I've only ever know a few true socialists and some of them are people who have lived in Fiji where (from what I'm told) their way of life is basically socialist only they don't refer to it by any label or slogan, it's just how they live. Need a hammer? You just run over to Ratu's place and grab one because that's the last place you saw one. And then sooner or later someone will come over and grab it off your bench. Don't like what the wife (or husband) is cooking? Run over to Tevita's and see what she's got in the pot and help yourself. Really, those are the stories I've heard from people who've lived there. But it's extremely difficult to live as a true socialist in most countries, especially the U.S. So yeah, some of us are freakin' watermelons.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I know, again, I don't think $15 should be the minimum wage everywhere. Minimum wage should be directly related to the cost of living in the state or province in which the people are getting paid. There should be some kind of calculation that is used by every region to determine a fair minimum wage, based on average prices of housing, the rate of inflation, etc (and perhaps with some kind of means to make it even higher in the cases of specific cities where cost of living is out of control compared to the rest of the province/state).
I know, again, I don't think $15 should be the minimum wage everywhere. Minimum wage should be directly related to the cost of living in the state or province in which the people are getting paid. There should be some kind of calculation that is used by every region to determine a fair minimum wage, based on average prices of housing, the rate of inflation, etc (and perhaps with some kind of means to make it even higher in the cases of specific cities where cost of living is out of control compared to the rest of the province/state).
I worded my response poorly. I didn't mean to imply you said everyone needs $15/hr, I meant not everyone even needs a "livable wage." I certainly didn't my first job in high school, or even in college. I had a roof food and clothing without it. Minimum wage jobs are typically little to no skill jobs designed for people with little or no education, experience or skills. There's no need to pay a high school kid living with his parents a livable wage to pump gas or work at McD's when his income goes to video games and junk food. I recognize that many adults are in situations that have left them with no education, experience or skills and are forced to work minimum wage jobs. I think a better solution than over-paying everyone is to build those people up (and yes, not to be mean but I do consider any job a high-school drop out can do with no other skills and minimal training over-paid if they are making a "livable wage). My wife is a part-time teacher of adult education. She works for the local school district and teaches night classes a few times a week to adults without a high school diploma. The goal is to have them get their GED, or high school equivalent. It is free for adults in the area and even includes free child care for those who need it. Almost all of her students are in their 30s-40s. Basically it isnt a class designed for 18 year olds who just dropped out, it is for any adult who wishes to get a high school education to better themselves. I would much rather see my money spent towards programs like that, that to keep over-paying someone for a no-skill job. Allow them to move up, get an education, get a better job and learn new skills.
Can't you just judge it by seeing how much they get in tips? All tips are reported, so it should be pretty clear. Tips definitely reflect the quality of service of pretty well, generally. And if a server worked his or her ass off on a table and didn't get tipped anyway because the customers are assholes, that is something the entire staff finds out about immediately. Not that I'm against customer feedback cards, but the problem with those is that the huge majority of them are only completed when the customers have a problem, not when the service is very good, and those problems are often related to things that have nothing to do with the quality of the job done by their server. Plus the majority of customers just don't feel like giving feedback because they are too lazy. I think tips are actually a more reliable gauge than customer feedback cards are.
I've known a lot of waiters or others who earned tips, and almost none of them reported tips accurately. Only the ones required to because they shared it with the chef or whomever, and even then it was sometimes questionable. But most weren't required too, and only about 1/10 of what they earned was reported on taxes.
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"tipping is, by all definition, sir, illogical, and entirely a human function with no practical basis in our modern world"
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my guess is, since historically most servers were women, that it had more to do with it being a practice among pig men hitting on hot waitresses by giving them money and probably a smack on the ass.
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There is no rhyme or reason which people get tipped. You tip a server or bartender, but not the guy who does your oil change.
I also have the same feeling about tipped jobs as HFD said about gas station workers making $15. It takes away the incentive to improve and seek better opportunities when you can wait tables and make $300 a night.I guess much of the time you don;t need better opportunities at that pay. I've never been a waiter, but I will say it does look like a lot of work. Always running back and forth, trying to get food and drinks as fast as possible But it doesn't look any more difficult than the hundreds of manual labor jobs that make minimum wage and no tips.
Tipping is not about expressing gratitude for a job well done anymore (although they still call it gratuity), it is expected and often mandatory and more and more common even factored into the bill. I hate when I get crappy service, and the bill comes with an automatic 20% added in.
If it really is about good service, why not tip your doctor who makes you feel extra special, or your kid's teacher when they help your kid get than A, or the receptionist who squeezed you in at a last mine appointment?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
But do you really think if someone is pumping gas for $15/hr, that they would quit, go to a trade school to become a plumber to make the same $15/hr ? Some will of course, but I can't believe you woudln't see a huge drop in jobs like that.
There's probably already a minimum wage thread, but no skill jobs filled by high school or even many college kids just don't need $15/hr. They have a roof over their head, they have food, they aren't the primary source of income. In my mind that is the target of a no skill job, and therefore is appropriate at $8/hr.
I would much rather provide opportunities for those who are the primary income to gain skills to get better jobs than to just pay everyone a lot more for no-skill labor.
Nothing is certain, but I have a feeling that a restaurant which tells its patrons that it provides bonuses for its staff based on customers’ feedback so that customers don’t have to, will get the twelve second (and honesty) investment out of their patrons. The incentive to the customer is very clear - they no longer have to pay a tip, and get to help the growth and development and fair compensation of the restaurant’s team.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
not that I am for feedback cards at all.
As for the favouritism argument, a good bonus program will treat all within a role impartially as it is results-driven.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Haha, perhaps you have never worked in the hospitality industry? There is no way in hell that favourtism wouldn't be a major factor in a bonus system in so many restaurants. Unless the system was 100% regulated by law, it would be badly abused by many.
I guess I don't think that customers should be paying for service in restaurants without variability. Because that really isn't fair if your server sucks and your dining experience isn't very good because of it, while the people across the room have great server and enjoyed their time way more. Those people should pay more because they got more. I really don't think that a bonus system would curb bad service at all FWIW, as someone who worked in the industry for about 8 years.
www.headstonesband.com
I recognize that many adults are in situations that have left them with no education, experience or skills and are forced to work minimum wage jobs. I think a better solution than over-paying everyone is to build those people up (and yes, not to be mean but I do consider any job a high-school drop out can do with no other skills and minimal training over-paid if they are making a "livable wage). My wife is a part-time teacher of adult education. She works for the local school district and teaches night classes a few times a week to adults without a high school diploma. The goal is to have them get their GED, or high school equivalent. It is free for adults in the area and even includes free child care for those who need it. Almost all of her students are in their 30s-40s. Basically it isnt a class designed for 18 year olds who just dropped out, it is for any adult who wishes to get a high school education to better themselves.
I would much rather see my money spent towards programs like that, that to keep over-paying someone for a no-skill job. Allow them to move up, get an education, get a better job and learn new skills.