The Concept of God

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  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 18,392
    Thank you both - she's a bit off (moreso than usual) but the woman is still rocking it at 88.

    Been a rough road, so if some kind of faith in something, anything, her husband and children? have gotten her through a very dark tunnel, hell to the yeah.

    Whatever gets you through the night (or day, or moment), it's alright.........it's alright :)
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,019
    hedonist said:
    Just gonna toss this out there and probably said something similar within the last 43 PAGES!

    Raised Jewish, now agnostic.  I am not fierce in what I believe or not - moreso in saying "yeah, I don't know shit....probably will never know".

    My mother had a brain stent inserted last evening after a series of small strokes, and within the agonizing hours we were waiting to know whatinthefuck was happening, a very sweet family member offered me a passage from the Torah.  A prayer for someone in my mom's position, and for those pulling so fucking hard for that person.

    I read the words, and took comfort in them.  Cried too.  Not so much in the higher power or whatever aspect of it, but the intent.  And it helped, despite how unexpectedly choked up I became in the process.  That's how I take anyone's prayers offered to me.  No arrogance on their part, but, to me at least, an extension of love, and care.  Same as "good thoughts".  Who am I to refuse that?  I think I'd be an asshole to do so.

    Offer and receive with grace, even if spectrums differ.

    Find a way through and to peace vs preaching.  Let others find their way; offer help but back off when needed or when asked.  Most do, in my experience.

    Again, intent.   Just be kind and decent, and give others the room to be as you wish for yourself.
    first: strength to you, your mother, and your family. 
    second: excellent post
    third: someone praying for you because of a life crisis of some kind is not arrogance, you are correct. when I refer to the arrogance of it, I mean when the intent is rather "oh, you don't believe in god, I will pray for you/your soul" kind of thing. like they somehow believe that they are better off than me, or know better than I do, that they can save me (hero complex), that sort of thing. certainly not in the context that you described. 


    1 day.......
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 18,392
    hedonist said:
    Just gonna toss this out there and probably said something similar within the last 43 PAGES!

    Raised Jewish, now agnostic.  I am not fierce in what I believe or not - moreso in saying "yeah, I don't know shit....probably will never know".

    My mother had a brain stent inserted last evening after a series of small strokes, and within the agonizing hours we were waiting to know whatinthefuck was happening, a very sweet family member offered me a passage from the Torah.  A prayer for someone in my mom's position, and for those pulling so fucking hard for that person.

    I read the words, and took comfort in them.  Cried too.  Not so much in the higher power or whatever aspect of it, but the intent.  And it helped, despite how unexpectedly choked up I became in the process.  That's how I take anyone's prayers offered to me.  No arrogance on their part, but, to me at least, an extension of love, and care.  Same as "good thoughts".  Who am I to refuse that?  I think I'd be an asshole to do so.

    Offer and receive with grace, even if spectrums differ.

    Find a way through and to peace vs preaching.  Let others find their way; offer help but back off when needed or when asked.  Most do, in my experience.

    Again, intent.   Just be kind and decent, and give others the room to be as you wish for yourself.
    first: strength to you, your mother, and your family. 
    second: excellent post
    third: someone praying for you because of a life crisis of some kind is not arrogance, you are correct. when I refer to the arrogance of it, I mean when the intent is rather "oh, you don't believe in god, I will pray for you/your soul" kind of thing. like they somehow believe that they are better off than me, or know better than I do, that they can save me (hero complex), that sort of thing. certainly not in the context that you described. 


    I totally get what you're saying, HFD.  And thank you :)
  • evsgjammevsgjamm Posts: 1,792
    1) Do believers in God include species other than human? Or do believers "believe" FOR those species... ?  Can an inanimate object also believe in an afterlife? example: "When I get torn down, I'll be rebuilt in heaven and will see all the previous buildings that used to stand here before me." 

    2) And when I read discussion about "if you find peace in your belief, then good on ya", does the same reasoning apply to the people on this planet who believe in the 72 virgins they'll receive in heaven if they crash airplanes into occupied buildings with intent on killing Christians?
    Let's go deep. Enough of this kumbaya balogna sandwich, hold the mustard. You NEED mustard! Let's try to put our feet into the shoes of some of the most extreme believers in God (general term implying all gods) and see how we come out on the other end.
    I can't fathom any of you saying "ya, if they are happy believing that, then good on them. Who am I to judge?" then there is something seriously wrong.

    Vancouver '03, Paramount Theatre '05, Saskatoon '05, Calgary '05, Edmonton '05, Saskatoon '11, Calgary '11, Calgary '13

    2010 WATCH IT GO TO FIRE!!
  • evsgjammevsgjamm Posts: 1,792
    Smellyman said:

    If you have 20 minutes give it a watch.  If you have another 20 minutes watch Hitchens' speech at the same event.



    AMEN!
    Vancouver '03, Paramount Theatre '05, Saskatoon '05, Calgary '05, Edmonton '05, Saskatoon '11, Calgary '11, Calgary '13

    2010 WATCH IT GO TO FIRE!!
  • evsgjammevsgjamm Posts: 1,792
    Smellyman, I ended up finding & watching that entire debate. Thanks for showing this to us. 
    Vancouver '03, Paramount Theatre '05, Saskatoon '05, Calgary '05, Edmonton '05, Saskatoon '11, Calgary '11, Calgary '13

    2010 WATCH IT GO TO FIRE!!
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,019
    evsgjamm said:
    1) Do believers in God include species other than human? Or do believers "believe" FOR those species... ?  Can an inanimate object also believe in an afterlife? example: "When I get torn down, I'll be rebuilt in heaven and will see all the previous buildings that used to stand here before me." 

    2) And when I read discussion about "if you find peace in your belief, then good on ya", does the same reasoning apply to the people on this planet who believe in the 72 virgins they'll receive in heaven if they crash airplanes into occupied buildings with intent on killing Christians?
    Let's go deep. Enough of this kumbaya balogna sandwich, hold the mustard. You NEED mustard! Let's try to put our feet into the shoes of some of the most extreme believers in God (general term implying all gods) and see how we come out on the other end.
    I can't fathom any of you saying "ya, if they are happy believing that, then good on them. Who am I to judge?" then there is something seriously wrong.

    you missed the ending to that statement, it is "if you find peace in your belief, then good on ya....AS LONG AS IT HARMS NO ONE ELSE". 
    1 day.......
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    edited September 8
    evsgjamm said:
    1) Do believers in God include species other than human? Or do believers "believe" FOR those species... ?  Can an inanimate object also believe in an afterlife? example: "When I get torn down, I'll be rebuilt in heaven and will see all the previous buildings that used to stand here before me." 

    2) And when I read discussion about "if you find peace in your belief, then good on ya", does the same reasoning apply to the people on this planet who believe in the 72 virgins they'll receive in heaven if they crash airplanes into occupied buildings with intent on killing Christians?
    Let's go deep. Enough of this kumbaya balogna sandwich, hold the mustard. You NEED mustard! Let's try to put our feet into the shoes of some of the most extreme believers in God (general term implying all gods) and see how we come out on the other end.
    I can't fathom any of you saying "ya, if they are happy believing that, then good on them. Who am I to judge?" then there is something seriously wrong.

    For the most part I believe that God just lets his animals be animals.. But He did create them all and can communicate with any animal at their level if He needs to. He created them all, so in doing so, he created, knows and understands all the unique and complex communications of animals birds insects ext..I've been around a lot of animals I have been around a lot of horses and cattle.  It's an almost spiritual thing for me at the end of my hectic work day in the evening when I feed my horses and refill their water tub, it is a relaxing and humbling experience that I never get tired of, to watch them come up just because I'm there with the hydrant on, they eagerly anticipating a fresh gulp of water.  I can tell you that when a horse comes to drink water, they often suck down 4 or 5 gallons really fast and then pause in total contentment, and sigh, and then take on one last mouthful and kind of walk around and hold it in their mouth for a little bit and they indeed savor that life sustaining water.  And while they don't verbally pray, I get the sense that they know who their creator is.
      Years ago, I was working on a cattle ranch in West Texas and we were training a bunch of young colts.  The initial training process takes about a week, you get them under saddle, you work getting on and getting off, trying to establish trust.  You know before you start a horse typically they've been with their mommy for a year and a half doing whatever they please.  So when you try to get on their back for the first time they look at you like maybe you might want to eat them. So it's all about gaining trust & respect. About Day 2 or 3, there's about 12 of us doing this in a relatively small arena.  And everybody was on the back of a somewhat nervous colt for the first or second time basically kindergarten for horses. A really good horse trainer was  in the center of the arena kind of working with everyone that's on a horse.  Everyone's working on developing a relationship with their horse they're on trying to gain confidence.  The guy in the center has a flag on a stick, kind of directing traffic, this is day two or three..  Going clockwise then counter-clockwise changing the speed from walk to jog back to walk.  You on the horse are working on your horse, neck reining foot cues and hand cues, leg cues.  It's great fun.  I'm laying the groundwork for what I'm trying to say here.  So we're all jogging around the arena counterclockwise and one of the horses spooks gets jumpy & jerky and throws a little fit. The guy on this horse (whose name was Woody Allen not the actor)  what's going along right in front of me, got tossed off went up about 2 ft above the horse and then landed flat on his back. It sounded like a 175lb bag of potatoes landing on the ground.  Now you've got 12 colts jogging around in a relatively tight space (they're all skittish at this stage) The guy lands on the ground (crunch) and all 12 of the horses stopped on a dime. Including the one that tossed him off.  Logically one would think that more horses could easily freak out, or scatter every witch way and the guy might get trampled.  But they all stopped and we're calm while a couple guys went in to help Woody up and get him out of there.  This is an outdoor fenced-in Arena not like PRCA Rodeo Arenas that have beautiful ground up soft dirt hauled in.  The ground that we had to work with was not that nice, made out hard-packed red clay.(much like concrete) Woody suffered a couple of fractured ribs and a stiff sore neck.  We were all grateful that that was all it was.  Later at the end of the day, we' are all sitting around the campfire drinking a few cold ones, talking about the day.  Woody is sitting there right with us, stiff and really sore.  We were all amazed how calm the horses became when he hit the ground, and we all agreed that The Good Lord intervened & calmed them all at once, until we could resume. I tried to move my horse forward a little bit out of the way and he would not budge.  Other guys said the same thing. That was proof enough for me and all of us that our Lord can communicate with animals when he needs to.
    Furthermore as it says in Matthew chapter 10 verse 29 not one Sparrow shall fall on the ground with out your Father.  (And then a few comforting verses) verse 30 but the very hairs on your head are all numbered.
    31 Fear ye not therefore ye are all of more value than many sparrows.
    Read it for yourself here if you choose. He is saying that He is aware even when any bird falls on the ground and that you are much more important to that to Him.

    https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-10/

    Post edited by RYME on
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    Waylon Jennings said it this way...


  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,019
    so if god can intervene when he chooses, why does he let so many people suffer much more often than not? why not communicate with a person when they are about to get murdered or in a car accident?
    1 day.......
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    I can't answer for Him.  Sometimes people are just in the wrong place at the right time.  If a tree decides to tip over and land on my head and kill me I would say that I was in the wrong place at the right time.
    I also think that He intervines more often than people realize, sometimes in very subtle ways sometimes in very obvious ways such as the horse ordeal that I was explaining.
    I know a guy that went across a set of RXR tracks in a pickup truck, not realizing that there was a train coming.  The train took the box of his truck clean off.  The portion of the truck that he was in (the cab) spun around twice he said, stopped in the ditch on the other side.  And he walked away with out a scratch.  I don't know what separates miracles from tragedies though.

  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 6,331
    Personally, i would suspect physics more than miracles gets the credit for the guy in the truck surviving.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,019
    so just to clarify, (I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand your logic) bad things are a case of wrong place at the right time, but good things/close calls are the work of god? or can some close calls just right place ALMOST wrong time?
    1 day.......
  • Personally, i would suspect physics more than miracles gets the credit for the guy in the truck surviving.
    Correct.

    Miracles when things work out... but no miracles more often than not.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    I don't know man. I cannot nail it down exactly.  The guy above was asking if God communicates with animals or animals communicate with God.  And then it kind of trickled into this who wins and who loses thing. I don't know why some things happen and some things don't.  My main thing was to show that I think He communicates with His animals.  The guys other question had to do with these people who think that they are rewarded with a bunch of virgins for blowing people up.  All I would say to that is I certainly would hate to be in their shoes, when they get to the other side standing before a very angry God.
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    edited September 8
    HFD, I'd be interested to get your take on this Waylon toon. I think it's a very modest concept God or a higher power that Waylon sang about.



    This is a better quality video than the one that posted earlier.
    Post edited by RYME on
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 37,610

    so just to clarify, (I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand your logic) bad things are a case of wrong place at the right time, but good things/close calls are the work of god? or can some close calls just right place ALMOST wrong time?
    This particular concept is definitely rather confounding for me. I can't say I understand how the faithful pull this idea off in their heads. How God makes everything good happen, but then all the bad shit is somehow out of his hands. Makes no sense. I realize the believers literally have no logical answer to this contradiction... I just don't really get how it doesn't bother them or make them question wtf they believe.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    And then here is a Johnny Cash song about the Book of Revelation it's pretty good give it a whirl.
    When the Man Comes Around


  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 2,870
    PJ_Soul said:

    so just to clarify, (I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand your logic) bad things are a case of wrong place at the right time, but good things/close calls are the work of god? or can some close calls just right place ALMOST wrong time?
    This particular concept is definitely rather confounding for me. I can't say I understand how the faithful pull this idea off in their heads. How God makes everything good happen, but then all the bad shit is somehow out of his hands. Makes no sense. I realize the believers literally have no logical answer to this contradiction... I just don't really get how it doesn't bother them or make them question wtf they believe.
    That's religion and faith for you, logic and reason not needed, so anything can be made up as you go along.
  • goldrushgoldrush everybody knows this is nowherePosts: 3,639
    PJ_Soul said:

    so just to clarify, (I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand your logic) bad things are a case of wrong place at the right time, but good things/close calls are the work of god? or can some close calls just right place ALMOST wrong time?
    This particular concept is definitely rather confounding for me. I can't say I understand how the faithful pull this idea off in their heads. How God makes everything good happen, but then all the bad shit is somehow out of his hands. Makes no sense. I realize the believers literally have no logical answer to this contradiction... I just don't really get how it doesn't bother them or make them question wtf they believe.
    The only answer you ever get for this is a dismissive "well, God works in mysterious ways". As if that is an acceptable reason for taking credit for all of the good things, and passing the blame for all of the bad in the world. 

    If God is responsible for placing a soul inside a womb for example, then He must also take responsibility for all of the birth defects and deaths that happen.

    My boss takes credit for other people's good work, but blames anyone she can when things go wrong. She doesn't work in mysterious ways, she's just an asshole.
    “Do not postpone happiness”
    (Jeff Tweedy, Sydney 2007)

    “Put yer good money on the sunrise”
    (Tim Rogers)
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    edited September 9
    goldrush said:
    PJ_Soul said:

    so just to clarify, (I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand your logic) bad things are a case of wrong place at the right time, but good things/close calls are the work of god? or can some close calls just right place ALMOST wrong time?
    This particular concept is definitely rather confounding for me. I can't say I understand how the faithful pull this idea off in their heads. How God makes everything good happen, but then all the bad shit is somehow out of his hands. Makes no sense. I realize the believers literally have no logical answer to this contradiction... I just don't really get how it doesn't bother them or make them question wtf they believe.
    The only answer you ever get for this is a dismissive "well, God works in mysterious ways". As if that is an acceptable reason for taking credit for all of the good things, and passing the blame for all of the bad in the world. 

    If God is responsible for placing a soul inside a womb for example, then He must also take responsibility for all of the birth defects and deaths that happen.

    My boss takes credit for other people's good work, but blames anyone she can when things go wrong. She doesn't work in mysterious ways, she's just an asshole.
    goldrush said:
    PJ_Soul said:

    so just to clarify, (I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand your logic) bad things are a case of wrong place at the right time, but good things/close calls are the work of god? or can some close calls just right place ALMOST wrong time?
    This particular concept is definitely rather confounding for me. I can't say I understand how the faithful pull this idea off in their heads. How God makes everything good happen, but then all the bad shit is somehow out of his hands. Makes no sense. I realize the believers literally have no logical answer to this contradiction... I just don't really get how it doesn't bother them or make them question wtf they believe.
    The only answer you ever get for this is a dismissive "well, God works in mysterious ways". As if that is an acceptable reason for taking credit for all of the good things, and passing the blame for all of the bad in the world. 

    If God is responsible for placing a soul inside a womb for example, then He must also take responsibility for all of the birth defects and deaths that happen.

    My boss takes credit for other people's good work, but blames anyone she can when things go wrong. She doesn't work in mysterious ways, she's just an asshole.
    U2 is now going to sing about your boss!! Insert the word (works) instead of (moves) and you have it..!!..

    Hey it's Saturday!
    Post edited by RYME on
  • When a two, five, ten, one hundred, or a million people are all praying to God at one time... how does he hear everyone's prayers?

    That's got to drive him nuts, eh? 
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 21,154
    When a two, five, ten, one hundred, or a million people are all praying to God at one time... how does he hear everyone's prayers?

    That's got to drive him nuts, eh? 
    Or her.  :wink:
    We're living on the edge of something big. It's a fantastic time in history to be alive.
    AMT, 1.25.15, 00:36 hrs.
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.
  • AnnafalkAnnafalk SwedenPosts: 3,291
    When a two, five, ten, one hundred, or a million people are all praying to God at one time... how does he hear everyone's prayers?

    That's got to drive him nuts, eh? 
    I think we "humans" have a hard time understanding God, how he work and deals with things. I simply think we can't grasp and understand and it's not meant for us to do so either. 
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    Annafalk said:
    When a two, five, ten, one hundred, or a million people are all praying to God at one time... how does he hear everyone's prayers?

    That's got to drive him nuts, eh? 
    I think we "humans" have a hard time understanding God, how he work and deals with things. I simply think we can't grasp and understand and it's not meant for us to do so either. 
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    edited September 11
    With all of the communication technologies we have, a phone in your pocket that alerts you about something every 5 seconds, text messages, WhatsApp, Skype, Email, breaking news, video messages,  things go viral very very quickly nowadays, or you can go to a sports bar that has a bunch of TVs all going with all the different ballgames on, and another separate TV with the weather channel on it, and another one with 24 Hour News on it in case of breaking news or something. 
    And one can sit there with a beer in your hand and almost effortlessly simultaneously know who's winning or losing in all the ballgames, see what the weather is doing, know what other family members are doing, know what their friends are doing, know what your kids want, know when someone expects you home, and if there's any breaking news, you glance over that TV and get it on your phone at the same time.
    God does not need the technology that we do to see and communicate what's going on.  But the ingredients for all the technology we have, has always been here.  It just took man a few thousand years to discover It all.
    But, there is nothing new under the sun.
    And I would say to someone who is just a little curious,
    Yes, He Has Time For You!
    Post edited by RYME on
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 12,019
    Annafalk said:
    When a two, five, ten, one hundred, or a million people are all praying to God at one time... how does he hear everyone's prayers?

    That's got to drive him nuts, eh? 
    I think we "humans" have a hard time understanding God, how he work and deals with things. I simply think we can't grasp and understand and it's not meant for us to do so either. 
    if a god exists, I would agree with this. there's no way something that powerful could be understood by us puny humans. 
    1 day.......
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 725
    edited September 12
    Our Father is telling you here how intimately he knows you. His children.
    Actually this is Jesus talking to the 12 disciples in Matthew chapter 10 vs 29-32
    29 Are not Two Sparrows sold for a farthing?  And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
    30 But the very hairs on your head are all numbered.(He knows you that well)
    31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
    32. Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven

    This must be kinda of what it was like when God parted the Red Sea.


    Post edited by RYME on
  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 2,870
    Classic Carlin



  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,437
    Annafalk said:
    When a two, five, ten, one hundred, or a million people are all praying to God at one time... how does he hear everyone's prayers?

    That's got to drive him nuts, eh? 
    I think we "humans" have a hard time understanding God, how he work and deals with things. I simply think we can't grasp and understand and it's not meant for us to do so either. 
    if a god exists, I would agree with this. there's no way something that powerful could be understood by us puny humans. 
    I disagree entirely, what is there to my understand?
    We can understand omnipotence, what could possibly be greater than omnipotence.

    The question isn't can we understand it, it's will we believe it's credible.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
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