Hugh is there anything else you can think of that you have Faith in that no one else can explain? Anything not even religious. Just throwing it out there.
Some feel that Atheism is about faith, just like religion is. I.e. we have faith that God doesn't exist. I personally think there is a fairly big logical flaw in this theory, although understand what they mean by it. Some even take the extra step of actually calling Atheism a religion, which I completely disagree with.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Hugh is there anything else you can think of that you have Faith in that no one else can explain? Anything not even religious. Just throwing it out there.
Some feel that Atheism is about faith, just like religion is. I.e. we have faith that God doesn't exist. I personally think there is a fairly big logical flaw in this theory, although understand what they mean by it. Some even take the extra step of actually calling Atheism a religion, which I completely disagree with.
Interesting concept. Immediately I thought of angry people.
Oh please let it rain today.
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
Hugh is there anything else you can think of that you have Faith in that no one else can explain? Anything not even religious. Just throwing it out there.
Some feel that Atheism is about faith, just like religion is. I.e. we have faith that God doesn't exist. I personally think there is a fairly big logical flaw in this theory, although understand what they mean by it. Some even take the extra step of actually calling Atheism a religion, which I completely disagree with.
Interesting concept. Immediately I thought of angry people.
Pardon? Why did you think of angry people?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Well... just so you know, a comment like that about Atheists is about equivalent to someone saying that all religious people are stupid (and that religious people aren't angry or hateful, for that matter, which we all know is very far from being the case, lol).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
FYI Foxy, to put your comment into some sort of context, studies shows that America distrusts Atheists more than they do rapists. So perhaps that mindset you just contributed to isn't so great, considering the facts.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
there is a lot of anger towards organized religion, not religion itself. I don't even know if I'd use anger as the right word. Maybe "contempt". the reason for that can be seen throughout history, all the pain and strife organized religion, particularly the catholic church, has reigned down on people over the centuries is well documented. They STILL protect known pedophiles.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
which is why I can't give money to the christian's children's fund. "send us money under the pretense of helping poor people and we use it for indoctrination".
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
And there is the boomerang that just came back and hit me in the face. That's what I love about you PJ soul The two missionaries that I know personally said nothing about death and misery there in New Guinea. But they did bring back and give me a bow and arrow that new guinean people use down there. Its hanging on the wall above my wood stove. Pretty awesome.
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
And there is the boomerang that just came back and hit me in the face. That's what I love about you PJ soul
I am sorry - I know your heart is in the right place. I just gotta say what I gotta say - I believe these things as strongly as you believe in God. I guess we both just have to keep expressing what we think!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
which is why I can't give money to the christian's children's fund. "send us money under the pretense of helping poor people and we use it for indoctrination".
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
And there is the boomerang that just came back and hit me in the face. That's what I love about you PJ soul
I am sorry - I know your heart is in the right place. I just gotta say what I gotta say - I believe these things as strongly as you believe in God. I guess we both just have to keep expressing what we think!
That's what keeps it fun for me. I keep swinging for the fence, but I keep fowling balls off. Some go all the way over the wall but hang a right or a left past the big yellow pole. There are good apples and there are bad apples. There are good Christian Missionary programs, and there are sucky ones that suck money and profit for no good reason.
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
And there is the boomerang that just came back and hit me in the face. That's what I love about you PJ soul
I am sorry - I know your heart is in the right place. I just gotta say what I gotta say - I believe these things as strongly as you believe in God. I guess we both just have to keep expressing what we think!
That's what keeps it fun for me. There are good apples and there are bad apples. There are good Christian Missionary programs, and there are sucky ones that suck money and profit for no good reason.
Okay.... TBH, I happen to think that there aren't any good missionary programs because I've never heard of any that don't intend to convert non-Christians. "Spreading the good word" is not a positive thing to me. It's a negative thing.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Well... just so you know, a comment like that about Atheists is about equivalent to someone saying that all religious people are stupid (and that religious people aren't angry or hateful, for that matter, which we all know is very far from being the case, lol).
The reason I said that is because I thought the reason atheists were angry is because of "organized" religion. Why else would they have hatred towards religion itself?
there is a lot of anger towards organized religion, not religion itself. I don't even know if I'd use anger as the right word. Maybe "contempt". the reason for that can be seen throughout history, all the pain and strife organized religion, particularly the catholic church, has reigned down on people over the centuries is well documented. They STILL protect known pedophiles.
I don't see a difference between hate towards religion and hate towards organized religion.
Oh please let it rain today.
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
Atheists are Atheists because they don't believe in God, not because they hate religion. Some Atheists do "hate" religion or feel a disdain for it, or contempt, as HFD put it, but that is because of all the evidenced moral and sociological and economic and political reasons that might make a person feel that way, not because they don't believe in God.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
And there is the boomerang that just came back and hit me in the face. That's what I love about you PJ soul
I am sorry - I know your heart is in the right place. I just gotta say what I gotta say - I believe these things as strongly as you believe in God. I guess we both just have to keep expressing what we think!
That's what keeps it fun for me. There are good apples and there are bad apples. There are good Christian Missionary programs, and there are sucky ones that suck money and profit for no good reason.
Okay.... TBH, I happen to think that there aren't any good missionary programs because I've never heard of any that don't intend to convert non-Christians. "Spreading the good word" is not a positive thing to me. It's a negative thing.
I was answering HFD's question. And to my knowledge, the two missionaries that know didn't kill anybody, or cause any carnage, or sabotage the New Guinean way of life.
but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
And there is the boomerang that just came back and hit me in the face. That's what I love about you PJ soul
I am sorry - I know your heart is in the right place. I just gotta say what I gotta say - I believe these things as strongly as you believe in God. I guess we both just have to keep expressing what we think!
That's what keeps it fun for me. There are good apples and there are bad apples. There are good Christian Missionary programs, and there are sucky ones that suck money and profit for no good reason.
Okay.... TBH, I happen to think that there aren't any good missionary programs because I've never heard of any that don't intend to convert non-Christians. "Spreading the good word" is not a positive thing to me. It's a negative thing.
I was answering HFD's question. And to my knowledge, the two missionaries that know didn't kill anybody, or cause any carnage, or sabotage the New Guinean way of life.
but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
I would argue that missionaries would necessarily sabotage the New Guinean way of life by converting them to Christianity and introducing western values to them.
But anyway, that doesn't answer the question HFD asked at all. If anything, it highlights the problem he's raising. If God really exists, why would tribes in Africa require Christian missionaries to come and teach them what they believe through their organized Church? Why wouldn't God touch them directly? Why would God require them to know dogma from a relatively modern religion developed in Europe?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Hugh is there anything else you can think of that you have Faith in that no one else can explain? Anything not even religious. Just throwing it out there.
good question. I was actually trying to think of that, and I really can't think of anything. I don't ascribe to faith. I can "hope" for things, but that's not the same. I'm not sitting here thinking that anything has an influence over what I'm hoping for, I'm just hoping the randomness of the universe turns out in my favour.
Ya see, HFD my faith says that there is nothing random about you, or your existence. That He created you as one of His children. That you are a unique individual. He created your soul with you in mind. Your DNA, & finger prints are different from anyone else's. He wants you to know that you are special to Him. He created you because He wanted to. He wants to take the burdens and anxieties out of your life. Day to day issues, and struggles continue, they certainly do for everyone, but they become easier to deal with. He knows that believing would be difficult for many. That's why there are people around, who try to spread the good news whenever possible knowing full well that it might not be real popular. No I don't run around on the streets yelling God and Jesus with bumper stickers all over my car. I'm not one of those.
If I had all the answers I certainly wouldn't be driving a semi-truck. But I'm bringing this down in case HFD missed it because we started talking about missionaries.
That's when I kind of moved away from believing in God. When I saw other religions that had their "book" and preached from it, prayed, etc. similar to what I experienced only in different ways. I thought all those kids in that country are being taught this other, and they are believing it just like I might being taught to believe this. Is t it ironic we all believe ours is the right way, because each "book" says so..
i went to church, not by choice, until junior high school. I see my nieces now in their late 20's, they were not babtised, their children are not, and probably have only attended a regular service a handful of times on the request of an elder. They do not necessarily believe in God, I know one that's does not for sure, and even tho their Grammys believe, they don't. I think early exposure has a lot to do with it. I didn't waiver away earlier in my life probably out of fear.
I have faith in life, mine, all my loved ones around me, their hopes and mine for myself and them, have got this far in life and I will make it the rest that of whatever's way I am to go. If I am at breaking point I think of someone I know who has it worse and came out okay and I just try to get up with a smile.
i think if someone has make it through a life treatening event and they live, or they walked when docs said they wouldn't, that outcome is a result of all their life energy. I certainly cannot explain everything. There is such sadness in the world for people it should not be sad, is that their energy? I don't know..having a God to turn to when a devasting event happens is little colsolation.
loving the convo!
amy
Amy The Great #74594
New Orleans LA 7/4/95 reschedule 9/17/95
Chicago IL 1998, 10/9/00, 06/18/03, 05/16/06, 05/17/06
08/23/09, 08/24/09, Lolla 08/05/07
Champaign IL 4/23/03
Grand Rapids MI VFC 10/03/04
Grand Rapids MI 19May06
Noblesville IN 05/07/10 Cleveland OH 05/09/10
PJ 20 2011
Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Seattle WA 2013
St. Louis MO, Milwaukee WI 2014
Tampa FL, Chicago IL, Lexington KY 2016 Missoula MT 2018
Atheists are Atheists because they don't believe in God, not because they hate religion. Some Atheists do "hate" religion or feel a disdain for it, or contempt, as HFD put it, but that is because of all the evidenced moral and sociological and economic and political reasons that might make a person feel that way, not because they don't believe in God.
What's a God-less religion?
Oh please let it rain today.
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
disclosure: I was baptized Christian, went to Sunday school, went to confirmation classes, was confirmed, in Saskatchewan, Canada. We'll be baptizing our daughter only to show respect to her grandparents, whom are devout Christians / Roman Catholics.
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
which is why I can't give money to the christian's children's fund. "send us money under the pretense of helping poor people and we use it for indoctrination".
I can agree with that.
Not all christians as all other people are good people, I think people like that are pure evil.
and of course anyone with resources can find god. but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
That's why there are missionaries. My aunt has a friend and her husband who spent 10 years in New Guinea attempting to bring God's Word to them and their tribes. And the stories they told me about their time there are fascinating and inspiring.
..... Many would say that they spent 10 years attempting to destroy yet another culture in favour of their own. The history of missionary work is a horribly sad and depressing one, involving a lot of death and misery.
And there is the boomerang that just came back and hit me in the face. That's what I love about you PJ soul
I am sorry - I know your heart is in the right place. I just gotta say what I gotta say - I believe these things as strongly as you believe in God. I guess we both just have to keep expressing what we think!
That's what keeps it fun for me. There are good apples and there are bad apples. There are good Christian Missionary programs, and there are sucky ones that suck money and profit for no good reason.
Okay.... TBH, I happen to think that there aren't any good missionary programs because I've never heard of any that don't intend to convert non-Christians. "Spreading the good word" is not a positive thing to me. It's a negative thing.
This reminds me, appropriately enough, of the saying, "hate the sin, don't hate the sinner". I know a guy who was a missionary in New Guinea. I've read enough about that small country to know that settlers, evangelists, missionaries, military and other assorted (mostly white) folks gave that place a royal ream job. So what this guy did there I would categorize as such. But the man is one of the kindest, sweetest, most big hearted guys I know. I will speak out against the action in any appropriate time or place but I would never sell the friendship down the river simply to be right.
Easy words, difficult task to accomplish, but the right thing is often the difficult thing to do.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Atheists do get mad sometimes. I get mad that my sister in law is indoctrinating my niece and nephew into a club which rejects science and rational thought. I get even madder that this club is proven to be a haven for, and protector of, child rapists.
Atheists do get mad sometimes. I get mad that my sister in law is indoctrinating my niece and nephew into a club which rejects science and rational thought. I get even madder that this club is proven to be a haven for, and protector of, child rapists.
That sounds horrible, how can she act so irresponsible? What does she say when you ask her about it?
Well... just so you know, a comment like that about Atheists is about equivalent to someone saying that all religious people are stupid (and that religious people aren't angry or hateful, for that matter, which we all know is very far from being the case, lol).
The reason I said that is because I thought the reason atheists were angry is because of "organized" religion. Why else would they have hatred towards religion itself?
there is a lot of anger towards organized religion, not religion itself. I don't even know if I'd use anger as the right word. Maybe "contempt". the reason for that can be seen throughout history, all the pain and strife organized religion, particularly the catholic church, has reigned down on people over the centuries is well documented. They STILL protect known pedophiles.
I don't see a difference between hate towards religion and hate towards organized religion.
what I mean is, there are plenty of people, I would say the majority of people who are religious, are good, and their beliefs come from a good place. the church they belong to, however, I don't hold in the same regard.
you can be religious without belonging to a church and giving money to a corrupt organization that claims to do good in the community but just uses that money to bring more and more people in so they can get more and more money and so they can build bigger and bigger buildings to gather in, when, from what I recall, that is in direct conflict with something in the bible, I can't recall if it was god or jesus or whoever said it.
that being said, there are religious views that I obviously think are evil. I've mentioned him a thousand times here, so my apologies, but my brother, his wife, and their son all believe that homosexuals are evil and are going to hell, and he thinks HE is the victim when he's called a bigot and that his religion is under attack. so, you can see where my objectivity on this matter can get slightly skewed.
my wife and two beautiful daughters are catholic. I respect their views. we talk about it openly in our house, why "daddy doesn't believe in god". and it's healthy that way. I am respectful to their views as they are to mine, and I try to explain my views as best I can so an 8 and 11 year old can understand and be open and respectful of the views of others.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Comments
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
-EV 8/14/93
-EV 8/14/93
The two missionaries that I know personally said nothing about death and misery there in New Guinea. But they did bring back and give me a bow and arrow that new guinean people use down there. Its hanging on the wall above my wood stove. Pretty awesome.
I can agree with that.
There are good apples and there are bad apples. There are good Christian Missionary programs, and there are sucky ones that suck money and profit for no good reason.
I don't see a difference between hate towards religion and hate towards organized religion.
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
but why does no one from an undiscovered tribe somewhere in africa have no relationship with god? why wouldn't he show them the path?
But anyway, that doesn't answer the question HFD asked at all. If anything, it highlights the problem he's raising. If God really exists, why would tribes in Africa require Christian missionaries to come and teach them what they believe through their organized Church? Why wouldn't God touch them directly? Why would God require them to know dogma from a relatively modern religion developed in Europe?
But I'm bringing this down in case HFD missed it because we started talking about missionaries.
i went to church, not by choice, until junior high school. I see my nieces now in their late 20's, they were not babtised, their children are not, and probably have only attended a regular service a handful of times on the request of an elder. They do not necessarily believe in God, I know one that's does not for sure, and even tho their Grammys believe, they don't. I think early exposure has a lot to do with it. I didn't waiver away earlier in my life probably out of fear.
I have faith in life, mine, all my loved ones around me, their hopes and mine for myself and them, have got this far in life and I will make it the rest that of whatever's way I am to go. If I am at breaking point I think of someone I know who has it worse and came out okay and I just try to get up with a smile.
i think if someone has make it through a life treatening event and they live, or they walked when docs said they wouldn't, that outcome is a result of all their life energy. I certainly cannot explain everything. There is such sadness in the world for people it should not be sad, is that their energy? I don't know..having a God to turn to when a devasting event happens is little colsolation.
loving the convo!
amy
New Orleans LA 7/4/95 reschedule 9/17/95
Chicago IL 1998, 10/9/00, 06/18/03, 05/16/06, 05/17/06
08/23/09, 08/24/09, Lolla 08/05/07
Champaign IL 4/23/03
Grand Rapids MI VFC 10/03/04
Grand Rapids MI 19May06
Noblesville IN 05/07/10 Cleveland OH 05/09/10
PJ 20 2011
Baltimore MD, Charlottesville VA, Seattle WA 2013
St. Louis MO, Milwaukee WI 2014
Tampa FL, Chicago IL, Lexington KY 2016
Missoula MT 2018
Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
disclosure: I was baptized Christian, went to Sunday school, went to confirmation classes, was confirmed, in Saskatchewan, Canada.
We'll be baptizing our daughter only to show respect to her grandparents, whom are devout Christians / Roman Catholics.
2010 WATCH IT GO TO FIRE!!
If you have 20 minutes give it a watch. If you have another 20 minutes watch Hitchens' speech at the same event.
Easy words, difficult task to accomplish, but the right thing is often the difficult thing to do.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I get mad that my sister in law is indoctrinating my niece and nephew into a club which rejects science and rational thought. I get even madder that this club is proven to be a haven for, and protector of, child rapists.
you can be religious without belonging to a church and giving money to a corrupt organization that claims to do good in the community but just uses that money to bring more and more people in so they can get more and more money and so they can build bigger and bigger buildings to gather in, when, from what I recall, that is in direct conflict with something in the bible, I can't recall if it was god or jesus or whoever said it.
that being said, there are religious views that I obviously think are evil. I've mentioned him a thousand times here, so my apologies, but my brother, his wife, and their son all believe that homosexuals are evil and are going to hell, and he thinks HE is the victim when he's called a bigot and that his religion is under attack. so, you can see where my objectivity on this matter can get slightly skewed.
my wife and two beautiful daughters are catholic. I respect their views. we talk about it openly in our house, why "daddy doesn't believe in god". and it's healthy that way. I am respectful to their views as they are to mine, and I try to explain my views as best I can so an 8 and 11 year old can understand and be open and respectful of the views of others.
-EV 8/14/93