I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
hippiemom = goodness
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g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,122
He IS what some say he IS.....a classic bullshitter. Also appears to be quite comfortable in that role. At some point reality will catch up with the BS and it just won't stick anymore.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
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The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,284
Remember a few weeks ago when Trump retweeted the right leaning Rasmussen poll showing his approval close to 50%?
It's back down to 43%. Lower than anyone in the history of approval ratings other than Ford at this point into his term.
He IS what some say he IS.....a classic bullshitter. Also appears to be quite comfortable in that role. At some point reality will catch up with the BS and it just won't stick anymore.
Peace
If only something would have caught up with him by now we wouldn't be in this mess. He's 70 and has lived his whole life this way without true consequence. Frickin' unreal.
It's a hopeless situation...
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
And Sander's plan of taxpayer funded tuition would have helped the current problem of jobs left open due to lack of specific skills. It could also have been applied to a specific trade school so people with almost zip income could eventually fill those open jobs rather than sit idle in an low wage, unskilled position.
The problem that exists, and what the left always fails to address, is that they don't do anything to cap the problem and control it. Their answer is to just throw more money at it, but they never stop the runaway train.
Someone has said it and that is until they take away the government backed gaurantee the schools have no incentive to control costs.
And Sander's plan of taxpayer funded tuition would have helped the current problem of jobs left open due to lack of specific skills. It could also have been applied to a specific trade school so people with almost zip income could eventually fill those open jobs rather than sit idle in an low wage, unskilled position.
The problem that exists, and what the left always fails to address, is that they don't do anything to cap the problem and control it. Their answer is to just throw more money at it, but they never stop the runaway train.
Someone has said it and that is until they take away the government backed gaurantee the schools have no incentive to control costs.
But really this deserves a thread of its own.
How can a free marketer libertarian like you make an argument for the gov't to cap or control the costs? Seems like a contradiction.
Question: How does one go about not paying Federal taxes? I'd like to know because I'd like to a part of that. I mean, you hear it all the time. This person owes 12 years of taxes, that person owes tens of thousands of dollars in taxes. Doesn't Floyd Mayweather alone owe the government $22 million? If these people can get away with it, I'm sure the Feds wouldn't miss my $5k a year. I'm certainly not down for paying for a fucking wall, so the government really has no business taking my money. I don't think there's anything in the all mighty Constitution stating that citizens are required to pay taxes, is there?
Unfortunately there is.
Feb 1913 found the passage of the 16th Amendment. It just so happened that the Federal Reserve (private banking system) was created in Dec 1913 and have conveniently been devaluing the dollar / stealing wealth from the non-rich ever since.
Ahh, I appreciate the info.
Actually I am looking at this wrong. The 16th Amendment gives Congress the authority to tax income, but it doesn't require them to nor does it set numbers.
Your personal requirement is based on your desire to be kidnapped and thrown in a cage. So I suppose it is up to each individual.
I always thought the "cage" was having a mortgage most of the adult life.
No, that is student loan debt.
yeah...notice how there is never any national discussion on why it costs $30k-60k a year for a college education? where does the money go?
I think a lot of that depends on what degree you pursue as well....someone that takes 5 years to graduate with an art history degree and can't get a job to pay off the loan doesn't get a lot of sympathy from me.
This is a topic I really like to debate and one that we talked about quite a bit when Sanders was in the race. I agree with your statement 100%. And I'm 100% against free tuition for people who select degrees for which there is no demand on the job side. Third, the student loan debts that these kids walk out of college with are completely debilitating to their next 15 financial years AND lead them to make bad short term decisions. Example... I have a team in SW Florida. It's a client facing team and I need college grads at the entry level. I pay 40k to start. Not the best, but pretty good considering I'll take liberal arts majors. Plus we promote like crazy. I've sent people straight to FGCU to recruit directly and people turn down the job becuase they need 60k at 23 because of their student loans. It's like Cousin Eddy holding out for a management position.
I think this attitude threatens society. I think it is very harmful to make things like art and history and literature unnecessary in society. This attitude pisses me off to no end. Also, it completely dismisses the fact that there are TONS of worthy professions that come out of such areas of study. Attitudes like this basically equate to calling for the death of art, philosophy, history, literature, and critical thinking. I can think of few things more dangerous to a civilization than to focus education only on areas where job demand is high. It is an insanely narrow-minded attitude that is ignorant to what the arts actually do for humankind. And then there is the part about crushing young souls in the name of capitalism.
why do you have to have a college degree to appreciate and study things?
It makes sense and we do need some....but c'mon we don't need as many as graduate. So when you can't find a job to pay back our loans who is that on?
Also - high school is free and look how that's going....not great. I am for a targeted program of tuition assistance for trades and professions that society needs at the time. It can change year by year (or every 4 years or so).
I didn't say you HAVE to have a college degree to appreciate and study things .... I don't understand what point you're trying to make. That post-secondary education in the arts isn't necessary at all?? That people just studying the arts on their own is adequate or somehow a fair compensation for real academic study? Surely that isn't your thought. Are you just trying to say that artists don't necessarily need a degree? No, of course not.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
And Sander's plan of taxpayer funded tuition would have helped the current problem of jobs left open due to lack of specific skills. It could also have been applied to a specific trade school so people with almost zip income could eventually fill those open jobs rather than sit idle in an low wage, unskilled position.
The problem that exists, and what the left always fails to address, is that they don't do anything to cap the problem and control it. Their answer is to just throw more money at it, but they never stop the runaway train.
Someone has said it and that is until they take away the government backed gaurantee the schools have no incentive to control costs.
But really this deserves a thread of its own.
How can a free marketer libertarian like you make an argument for the gov't to cap or control the costs? Seems like a contradiction.
Um, I'm not. I am saying government should not be in the student loan business.
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Right? Every time those yahoos mention transparency in the context of "we have some", I am thrown by how stupid they must think everyone else is... and by how stupid they are.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
Bingo.
Some of my best friends have liberal arts degrees. Actually....that's not really very true. A couple do though!
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
That still seems like a really scary idea. As mentioned, it seems to violate student rights. There are plenty of other ways to promote in-demand areas. This varying tuition support based on area of study idea is the worst idea possible. And as Go Beavers said, there is a societal need for liberal arts degrees. I don't understand your mentality here at all - I have to assume you don't understand the importance of the liberals arts and the role they have in society. Nobody is suggesting that STEM oriented jobs don't need to be filled. You know how a lot of countries fill jobs in the way you're talking about? A good education system that doesn't punish students and good immigration policies.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
There is a societal need for liberal arts majors.
Let me rephrase for both you and @PJ_Soul because maybe I'm being misunderstood, or maybe we just disagree. I'm not talking about a societal need in general. Of course there is a societal need for all degrees, BS or BA.. I'm talking about specific needs in the job market to close existing gaps. The goal is to influence new students to take on degrees they might not ordinarily not do because of lack of understanding or lack of interest. If we start running short of history teachers (like we are on electricians today), then the gov't can shift and reimburse history degrees until we close the gap. I'm not sure why this is controversial to you guys. You apply this theory in your every day lives. Again, I'm saying this as a person who has 2 liberal arts degrees. I'm not anti-LA, but I'm pro-pragmatism.
And Sander's plan of taxpayer funded tuition would have helped the current problem of jobs left open due to lack of specific skills. It could also have been applied to a specific trade school so people with almost zip income could eventually fill those open jobs rather than sit idle in an low wage, unskilled position.
The problem that exists, and what the left always fails to address, is that they don't do anything to cap the problem and control it. Their answer is to just throw more money at it, but they never stop the runaway train.
Someone has said it and that is until they take away the government backed gaurantee the schools have no incentive to control costs.
But really this deserves a thread of its own.
Aren't you taking away the free market side of the equation, which is students are choosing to go to college even at the current cost. They still see a value in it, regardless of their interest rate on their loan.
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
There is a societal need for liberal arts majors.
Let me rephrase for both you and @PJ_Soul because maybe I'm being misunderstood, or maybe we just disagree. I'm not talking about a societal need in general. Of course there is a societal need for all degrees, BS or BA.. I'm talking about specific needs in the job market to close existing gaps. The goal is to influence new students to take on degrees they might not ordinarily not do because of lack of understanding or lack of interest. If we start running short of history teachers (like we are on electricians today), then the gov't can shift and reimburse history degrees until we close the gap. I'm not sure why this is controversial to you guys. You apply this theory in your every day lives. Again, I'm saying this as a person who has 2 liberal arts degrees. I'm not anti-LA, but I'm pro-pragmatism.
but if you give the government the power to start influencing what people study monetarily, blammo, you've just created a new type of lobbyist.
And Sander's plan of taxpayer funded tuition would have helped the current problem of jobs left open due to lack of specific skills. It could also have been applied to a specific trade school so people with almost zip income could eventually fill those open jobs rather than sit idle in an low wage, unskilled position.
The problem that exists, and what the left always fails to address, is that they don't do anything to cap the problem and control it. Their answer is to just throw more money at it, but they never stop the runaway train.
Someone has said it and that is until they take away the government backed gaurantee the schools have no incentive to control costs.
But really this deserves a thread of its own.
Aren't you taking away the free market side of the equation, which is students are choosing to go to college even at the current cost. They still see a value in it, regardless of their interest rate on their loan.
Here is the law of unintended consequences at work. 1. We think college is too expensive 2. A solution to get the colleges to bring down the cost is to reduce the supply (the number of students) 3. Kill low interest student loans, reducing the number of people who can afford to attend college. It would take several years for a college to really feel this effect, so you now have the first generation...probably ever... that has a lower college participation rate than the previous. 4. Tuition comes down! Great!! 5. The US is even less competitive on the world stage because our education gap just widened.
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
There is a societal need for liberal arts majors.
Let me rephrase for both you and @PJ_Soul because maybe I'm being misunderstood, or maybe we just disagree. I'm not talking about a societal need in general. Of course there is a societal need for all degrees, BS or BA.. I'm talking about specific needs in the job market to close existing gaps. The goal is to influence new students to take on degrees they might not ordinarily not do because of lack of understanding or lack of interest. If we start running short of history teachers (like we are on electricians today), then the gov't can shift and reimburse history degrees until we close the gap. I'm not sure why this is controversial to you guys. You apply this theory in your every day lives. Again, I'm saying this as a person who has 2 liberal arts degrees. I'm not anti-LA, but I'm pro-pragmatism.
but if you give the government the power to start influencing what people study monetarily, blammo, you've just created a new type of lobbyist.
Right. And to charge some students with particular interests but not other students with other interests, that is the government controlling what people choose to study through financial persecution, essentially. Again, there are tons of ways to promote certain areas of study. Fucking with student-paid tuition fees to get it done is literally the worst, most damaging, and most unfair way to go about it. I am also pro-pragmatism. I just don't think your theory is pragmatic.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
There is a societal need for liberal arts majors.
Let me rephrase for both you and @PJ_Soul because maybe I'm being misunderstood, or maybe we just disagree. I'm not talking about a societal need in general. Of course there is a societal need for all degrees, BS or BA.. I'm talking about specific needs in the job market to close existing gaps. The goal is to influence new students to take on degrees they might not ordinarily not do because of lack of understanding or lack of interest. If we start running short of history teachers (like we are on electricians today), then the gov't can shift and reimburse history degrees until we close the gap. I'm not sure why this is controversial to you guys. You apply this theory in your every day lives. Again, I'm saying this as a person who has 2 liberal arts degrees. I'm not anti-LA, but I'm pro-pragmatism.
I agree.
And this kinda happens in a small way through government funded organizations that offer grants. I received my master's fully funded by an organization that received government aid and uses it to promote people studying their fields of need.
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
There is a societal need for liberal arts majors.
Let me rephrase for both you and @PJ_Soul because maybe I'm being misunderstood, or maybe we just disagree. I'm not talking about a societal need in general. Of course there is a societal need for all degrees, BS or BA.. I'm talking about specific needs in the job market to close existing gaps. The goal is to influence new students to take on degrees they might not ordinarily not do because of lack of understanding or lack of interest. If we start running short of history teachers (like we are on electricians today), then the gov't can shift and reimburse history degrees until we close the gap. I'm not sure why this is controversial to you guys. You apply this theory in your every day lives. Again, I'm saying this as a person who has 2 liberal arts degrees. I'm not anti-LA, but I'm pro-pragmatism.
I agree.
And this kinda happens in a small way through government funded organizations that offer grants. I received my master's fully funded by an organization that received government aid and uses it to promote people studying their fields of need.
No, that's not the same. Students receiving money to help pay tuition through grants is not equivalent to some students paying no tuition and some students paying tuition, depending on their field of study. Especially since most grants are partially decided based upon financial need, not only area of study.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
There is a societal need for liberal arts majors.
Let me rephrase for both you and @PJ_Soul because maybe I'm being misunderstood, or maybe we just disagree. I'm not talking about a societal need in general. Of course there is a societal need for all degrees, BS or BA.. I'm talking about specific needs in the job market to close existing gaps. The goal is to influence new students to take on degrees they might not ordinarily not do because of lack of understanding or lack of interest. If we start running short of history teachers (like we are on electricians today), then the gov't can shift and reimburse history degrees until we close the gap. I'm not sure why this is controversial to you guys. You apply this theory in your every day lives. Again, I'm saying this as a person who has 2 liberal arts degrees. I'm not anti-LA, but I'm pro-pragmatism.
I agree.
And this kinda happens in a small way through government funded organizations that offer grants. I received my master's fully funded by an organization that received government aid and uses it to promote people studying their fields of need.
No, that's not the same. Students receiving money to help pay tuition through grants is not equivalent to some students paying no tuition and some students paying tuition, depending on their field of study. Especially since most grants are partially decided based upon financial need, not only area of study.
I used the wrong words. I was paid a stipend and got free tuition because of the field I was studying. Not based on need at all.
And I never said 'no tuition" as I think that is a terrible idea. The student must be invested or it becomes like high school with drop-outs.
Anyhow, I'm just going to agree to disagree as I really don't understand resistance to the government supporting career paths that the country current lacks the # of people with necessary skills.
I agree.. I think Art History is a little bit of a stretch, but someone with a liberal arts major can usually construct a complete sentence, which is more than can be said about some degrees. At the end of the day, people that are motivated, positive, able to think in an integrated way and are persuasive can succeed at most "business management" jobs. Some jobs are specialized of course and that's where I get into my statement about funding "in need" jobs. They aren't marketing and business admin jobs. They are applied math, engineering fields, etc. An Art History major would have a tough time being successful in such a field.
Why are we even talking business degrees? Personally I would focus on Engineering/Science degrees at universities and trades at 2 year.
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Yeah, I didn't even realize that anyone was talking about business degrees. Most of those are a bit of a joke as far as personal success goes. I was also assuming we were talking about math, science, computer programming, med school, nursing school, engineering, and the trades. By the way, arts degrees include studies in Economics, languages, psychology, humanities, sociology, anthropology, political science, international studies, public policy, labour studies, gerontology, criminology, and urban studies. Stupid useless arts degrees, right?? I totally agree that it would be a violation of rights to favour particular studies over others in terms of tuition costs. The way you promote particular areas of study is to control funding in various ways, not to ding particular students directly and not others. That's crazy talk.
I don't think anyone criticized Liberal Arts degrees as a whole, rather that if government is going to physically pay tuition, there should be a societal need. Doesn't matter to me if it's an art or a STEM. However as we sit here, we have 6MM jobs in the US unfilled (many of the STEM oriented), many because our citizens don't have the skills to fill them.
There is a societal need for liberal arts majors.
Let me rephrase for both you and @PJ_Soul because maybe I'm being misunderstood, or maybe we just disagree. I'm not talking about a societal need in general. Of course there is a societal need for all degrees, BS or BA.. I'm talking about specific needs in the job market to close existing gaps. The goal is to influence new students to take on degrees they might not ordinarily not do because of lack of understanding or lack of interest. If we start running short of history teachers (like we are on electricians today), then the gov't can shift and reimburse history degrees until we close the gap. I'm not sure why this is controversial to you guys. You apply this theory in your every day lives. Again, I'm saying this as a person who has 2 liberal arts degrees. I'm not anti-LA, but I'm pro-pragmatism.
I agree.
And this kinda happens in a small way through government funded organizations that offer grants. I received my master's fully funded by an organization that received government aid and uses it to promote people studying their fields of need.
No, that's not the same. Students receiving money to help pay tuition through grants is not equivalent to some students paying no tuition and some students paying tuition, depending on their field of study. Especially since most grants are partially decided based upon financial need, not only area of study.
I used the wrong words. I was paid a stipend and got free tuition because of the field I was studying. Not based on need at all.
And I never said 'no tuition" as I think that is a terrible idea. The student must be invested or it becomes like high school with drop-outs.
Anyhow, I'm just going to agree to disagree as I really don't understand resistance to the government supporting career paths that the country current lacks the # of people with necessary skills.
Yeah sure, agree to disagree. But FWIW, there are other countries that have free post-secondary education, and they definitely don't have problems as far as students not being invested goes. Of course, their secondary education systems are way way better too, so that probably makes the difference. I know that in France, high school students are required to choose their area of study when they are about 14 or 15, in 9th grade. They do that so that the students can become prepared and invested long before they even get to university.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Again---how in the word does Jared Kushner still have a security clearance, let alone a job at this point? What the fuck?
www.cluthelee.com
www.cluthe.com
I don;t have anything against someone following their passion and we certainly need all types. But, I don;t think you have a human right to pursue whatever degree you want in college and have someone else pick up the bill. I think the areas the country is in need of should receive the support.
And I'm sorry I took us away from the topic...so back to Trump. His comments to Brigitte Macron are par for the course from him. The sad thing is in his mind, he was doing nothing wrong. That him commenting about her physical appearance is a true compliment because a woman's physical appearance is the most important aspect and he is obviously the best judge. So him giving his approval was a tremendous compliment for Brigitte.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Remember a few weeks ago when Trump retweeted the right leaning Rasmussen poll showing his approval close to 50%?
It's back down to 43%. Lower than anyone in the history of approval ratings other than Ford at this point into his term.
SAD!
Someone has said it and that is until they take away the government backed gaurantee the schools have no incentive to control costs.
But really this deserves a thread of its own.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/13/politics/george-w-bush-bill-clinton-dallas/index.html
http://www.politico.com/gallery/2017/07/14/the-nations-cartoonists-on-the-week-in-politics-002457?slide=0
Article made no mention of it.
Some of my best friends have liberal arts degrees.
I'm not sure why this is controversial to you guys. You apply this theory in your every day lives. Again, I'm saying this as a person who has 2 liberal arts degrees. I'm not anti-LA, but I'm pro-pragmatism.
www.headstonesband.com
1. We think college is too expensive
2. A solution to get the colleges to bring down the cost is to reduce the supply (the number of students)
3. Kill low interest student loans, reducing the number of people who can afford to attend college. It would take several years for a college to really feel this effect, so you now have the first generation...probably ever... that has a lower college participation rate than the previous.
4. Tuition comes down! Great!!
5. The US is even less competitive on the world stage because our education gap just widened.
Sounds like a great plan.
And this kinda happens in a small way through government funded organizations that offer grants. I received my master's fully funded by an organization that received government aid and uses it to promote people studying their fields of need.
And I never said 'no tuition" as I think that is a terrible idea. The student must be invested or it becomes like high school with drop-outs.
Anyhow, I'm just going to agree to disagree as I really don't understand resistance to the government supporting career paths that the country current lacks the # of people with necessary skills.